1. #1
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    Default Vehicle Acquisition Grant Question

    Looking to write in this catagory to replace our 1976 Pierce Telesquirt with a new(er) ariel device. This truck was actually made by combining two wrecked trucks by Oklahoma City Fire. My questions is on writing to purchase a used apparatus. Does it have to be a 2009 or later to meet NFPA 2009, which is what I assumed, or do older trucks fund as well, and if so down to what year?

    Additionally I know that you should put in for training with this grant, but how about equipment for the unit itself? We do not want to price it out of consideration. Not looking for fancy or shiny new...just functional.

    Chris

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    Used apparatus purchased with AFG funds have to meet the NFPA 1901 compliance at the time of their manufacturer.

    Unless applying for a refurb as part of the project is the plan in which case it has to meet the current NFPA 1912.

    Truth be told, used apparatus projects don't score well at all. NFPA 1901 says anything over 30 has to come off the road, at 20 it should be relegated to reserve status. So figuring that you're getting a 10-20 year old truck that's only half the life or less as a frontline piece. Compared to a new one that will get 20 frontline and minimum 10 reserve the cost-benefit might lean to new. Also there's no guarantee that within the 12 month performance period of the grant that there will be a truck in the same price range that is dependable enough.

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    I was concerned that the cost of a new ariel would put it out of funding reach, as most vehicle grants I have seen are in the $200,00 to $300,000 range. I take it that's not so?

    Additionally there is a huge difference as far as matching funds go between a $250,000 truck and a $650,000 one.

    Chris
    Last edited by Luther724; 06-23-2014 at 06:21 PM.

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    Aerials are tough to hit no matter what, and most truck awards are in that range because they're all tankers and pumpers. Regardless of cost your application has to be for a solution and a long term one at that. You're not going to find many sticks in decent shape under 20. Even refurbs are a long shot because of cost. Plus you have to have the need for an aerial in the first place, so lots of tall buildings, larger number of structure fires, etc.

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    A few interesting things I ran across reading through all of the posts here, and one of the main ones was about run number classification. A poster said that smoke investigations, electrical arcing on outside feeds and supply wires, smoke co2 and sprinkler activation, and non residential outbuildings (shops, well houses, etc) numbers should be lumped in with the number of structure fire calls per year category. Another poster alluded to grass/brush fire calls as well, which I cannot see as being accurate...but I don't know, so figure it's best to ask. I do know we list primary call reason on the system...any structures involved due to a wildland/brush fire are listed inside of the report, so we will have to go through them to see as well.

    Last year we ran (not counting mutual aid calls) 281 calls. In 2012 we ran 205, but in one wildland fire incident alone we lost 56 structures within the district, so again the numbers are skewed based on our reporting system. How does one go about calculating this for AFG purposes?

    Chris

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    Quote Originally Posted by Luther724 View Post
    A poster said that smoke investigations, electrical arcing on outside feeds and supply wires, smoke co2 and sprinkler activation, and non residential outbuildings (shops, well houses, etc) numbers should be lumped in with the number of structure fire calls per year category. Another poster alluded to grass/brush fire calls as well, which I cannot see as being accurate...but I don't know, so figure it's best to ask.

    I do know we list primary call reason on the system...any structures involved due to a wildland/brush fire are listed inside of the report, so we will have to go through them to see as well.
    Not accurate.

    Working Structural Fires - includes cooking fires, chimney fires, smoke odor calls, unauthorized burning calls, and trash and rubbish fires that spread to a structure(s).

    Quote Originally Posted by Luther724 View Post
    Last year we ran (not counting mutual aid calls) 281 calls. In 2012 we ran 205, but in one wildland fire incident alone we lost 56 structures within the district, so again the numbers are skewed based on our reporting system. How does one go about calculating this for AFG purposes?
    IF the wildland fires consumed a structure, you should certainly be able to justify them as structure fires, you just wouldn't be able to double count them.

    The harsh reality is that you will have very little chance of funding an aerial with a call volume < 300.

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    Also that was 1 brush fire that consumed 56 structures. So only counts as 1 vegetation fire if that's the initial dispatch. If a structure fire caused a brush fire, that's a different animal. Additional dispatches for the same incident are still 1 incident.

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    how many of your 281 calls were actual structure fires?
    That is what they are going to look at.

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    The aerial we hit this year (hopefully not the only one) is replacing a 1977 85ft stick, 407 total calls, just short of half EMS, 11 structure fires in 2012, 2 structures 4 stories and higher, application total is $775k for 100ft Quint (1500gpm/500gal).

    36 square miles, 16k population, Vol/POC department.

    Age of vehicle definitely helped this one, but last year got 2 career department aerials that were 21 years old replaced. Like any application there will be a lot of people in the pool looking for dough, make sure the narrative is bullet-proofed. This one didn't make Peer last year. Like I mentioned in other threads some Vehicle apps have been put in 3-5 times and they're finally hitting this year. Just takes others getting out of the way first, so my rule of thumb is if you can't afford it, apply for it. Repeat as needed.

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    I would think each of the structure fires should be documented as exposure fires in you NFIRS so yes you did actually have 56 structure fires. Ariel is a tough nut, perhaps you should consider requesting a quint and utilizing the new truck to replace two vehicles, if that is even an option.
    Mark

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    Goes by dispatches, so by the 1 brush fire consuming 56 structures, it's still 1 brush fire and a long explanation in a narrative. That's why there's an acres burned section too. Same way if a structure fire extends to an exposure it's not a 2nd structure fire call, it's 1 with a double loss.

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    You are filing NFIRS reports already aren't you???????

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    The department has filed through NFIRS for years.

    And we would be replacing a quint with a quint. Our engine is a 1995 E-One that was donated only a few months ago to us by Del City Fire Dept, so there would be no 2nd vehicle to swap out in addition to the current quint.

    Chris

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    That might be an issue. I believe there is a minimum time you have to own a vehicle before you can ask to replace it. Seems folks were buying trash just to qualify for a grant, got caught, and now we have a minimum time of ownership rule.

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