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Thread: Training Requirments and response

  1. #26
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    I see three distinct issues here:

    1) Volunteer fire departments, just like career departments, attempting to set standards for training.

    2) Career firefighters believing that because they train, know their equipment, and the way they operate at the career FD, that this exempts them from attending minimum training at the volunteer fire department.

    3) SOME volunteer departments not having flexible enough training programs to be able to schedule around people's work and family life schedules for make-up of missed drills.

    Look, let's be brutally honest here. Dragging a hoseline down a hallway to extinguish a fire, venting a roof, overhaul, water supply, both rural and city, are pretty much the same thing everywhere. What changes is manpower and their abilities, equipment, response times, and tactical changes due to those variables. My career FD was a small city FD with roughly 25 to 32 firefighters on duty daily and rapid availability of mutual aid. Both of my POC FDs are rural, with the village's being hydranted and everything else being tender shuttles. Add to that the daily initial response may vary between 6 and 12 for both FDs and then 10 to 20 minutes for mutual aid to arrive. The reality is between my career FD and my POC FDs they are 2 entirely different firefighting worlds.

    Further, how do firefighters get to know each other if they don't train, go to meetings together, do station duties together, and frankly just socialize around the fire house? How does the guy who never shows up for drill know the local operating guidelines, or even where the equipment is on the rigs? Seriously, I question the validity of not being able to make 24 hours of department training in 12 months. I also question FDs so rigid that they don't arrange alternative training for those who can't make regularly scheduled trainings.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 06-30-2014 at 03:03 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HuntPA View Post
    I would personally disagree with the amount that has to be in house, but the idea that you need to be around the other members of the department and train with them is essential. I also agree that mentoring time, station duty time, and calls should be factored into this as well.
    You just about sum-up all the key points here. Training is not all about training to the actual skills, it's about developing trust and working relationships with other folks on the department. But those things definitely come along with mentoring time, station duty, & calls, as well as social & volunteer events. It's all about the contact hours, regardless of the activity.

    It seems very counter-productive for the VFD to not do its best to make allowances in order to retain professional firefighters, they're basically getting all that training and experience on some other department's nickel. As long as one is putting in sufficient contact hours across all the activities such that the working relationships are being formed, it could be that inflexible training hour requirements could be serving another purpose.

    I'm sure it depends on the VFD as to what they may be trying to accomplish. Mine recently codified some training hours requirements, and I suspect a lot of that was to have a basis for cleaning-up the freeloaders on the roster who were content to do basically nothing except occasionally show-up to a call and bumble around a little in hopes of staying a member of the department long enough to collect the pension. They made sure not to invite any unintended consequences by allowing the Chief & officers some discretion such that it's not a hard-and-fast rule for the guys who are professional firefighters on other departments, or who spend part of the year out-of-district. They really want to keep the ability to retain the contributors to our department, while losing the dead weight.

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    From second post "you're not gonna like....."

    I would agree, but the reason for my dissention is not just my career hours. The "required" training includes County Meetings where you basically go and eat (I cannot attend these nights), and includes several volunteers who show up and either don't train or leave early. Our training is not department-specific. Much of it is classroom with a trainer from another county department. Mostly, it is geared toward cadets and rookies who get hands-on while the rest of us stand around. It's absolutely worthless training.
    It would be easy to say- "then quit." I just struggle with leaving my community, and the love I have for responding.
    Last edited by hills191; 07-03-2014 at 03:52 PM.

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    Yep, pretty sure the chief has a hard on for me. He has granted this for others, but not for me.
    Quote Originally Posted by fire49 View Post
    Agree with all your points

    Op says they have alternatives in place, it does not seem to say you must,,,,

    Department Bylaws: For some reason, our department decided to expand that law to require 18 of the 24 hours to be in-house training. The only exception would be to have the Chief or Asst Chief sign off on acceptable outside training.

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    It is a response like yours that I was hoping to read. Thank You!!
    I do love the department, and firefighting/EMS. I just don't want to sound like a pompus *** by rejecting our policy. I think you make some valid points, and I will actually use your post to do so, if you don't mind.
    I think I can bring this up at our August meeting.
    Quote Originally Posted by BoxAlarm187 View Post
    I've had the chance to volunteer with a couple of different departments in different areas, and the second VFD that I joined had a similar program of "in house" training hours that were required for all members. I wasn't career at this point in my life, but there were a significant number of people at this VFD who were career firefighters in neighboring localities and were directly effected by this new policy.

    The point of the policy was that these members needed to be up-to-speed on the department's equipment, personnel, etc. The downside to the policy is that the training had to be delivered in a formal training environment - if you missed one of the formal training sessions, you were out of luck - you couldn't just make it up the next time you were at the station.

    The other problem is that many of these career guys were very active with the department, especially during the day when personnel were really needed. There were in quarters, running the calls (our station was averaging about 5 calls a day that time [late 1990's]) and providing leadership to the newer members. It's not like they were no-shows, they were truly contributing to the department.

    About 18 months after the adoption of the in-house policy, it was modified to allow those career personnel who had a minimum number of duty hours to not have to meet the formal in-house training requirements. It simply wasn't worth the risk of losing valuable members of the department over a policy like that.

    What you ought to do in this situation really depends on how much the VFD means to you. If you're okay with it, walk away and enjoy the extra free time withy your family. But if being a member there means as much to you as it appears from what you've written, I would attempt to make them why losing you would be a loss for the department, and show them the extended to which you've tried to comply with the requirements. As others have said, you're likely exceeding the overall training hours, but you're just not meeting the in-house hours - there has to be a compromise. If they refuse to listen to compromise, perhaps it's not a department you need to be associated with anyway.

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    Not exactly. Some mandatory training is not counted, and it is on specific night of the week, once per month. So, if my kid has a ballgame or we're out of town, that could be 4 hours of training gone. Also, I might attend a training that takes 3 hours, but only get credit for 2 hours.
    Monthly training; 2 to 4 hours per night. Occasional Saturday training or County Meeting. There were 28 hours available for the last year. I made 17 of 28 hours.
    Also, our "make-up" trainign is never scheduled, and with work and kids this is a must for me. Many times it is paged the day of, or decided the same week. Our Chief has a business in town, and the Asst Chief does not work. Young guys that don't have careers make training regularly.
    No option of unscheduled training.
    The training at our department is instructed by an outside trainer. We may use our trucks. We don't operate like most departments - protocols. We go by what the Chief says.
    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    So 18 hours has to be in house, which is 1.5 hours per month.

    That would be one 2-hour training session. One three hour training session would double what you would need to meet in a month.

    How often does your department train? If they train multiple times in a month (weekly or bi-weekly as examples) is it that difficult for you to make one training night per month? How about proposing the idea of having 1 or 2 day trainings per month for those that may work nights? How about proposing one weekend training per month as a make-up day for those that work M-F?

    At both of my departments, as long as a senior member who is qualified to teach submits a lesson plan, he can lead an unscheduled training at any time and have it count as training. is that an option in your situation?

    Why can't your department allow you to count those mentoring sessions as training? I know in my situation they certainly would and would generate a training report and recordable training hours, for both the student and instructor.

    My point is simple. Training at your career gig may have very little to do with the operations at your VFD, so why should the training apply?

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    I like BoxAlarms view.
    The thing is, it would do our department some good to see outside training. The most recent hired career firefighter says his career department (local) jokes about our department. We have a good department, but that is because of good personnel. We have had several issues and near misses. We've been lucky. The egos are huge. If I tried to introduce an idea or training, it would get shot down without a thought. If a guy from another department came in, they would heed his advice.
    A good example; we just had flash flooding, and our department was under 2 feet of water, half the town closed down. Prior to the water rising, the first thing I said to the Chief was "Do we have a plan for protecting teh station and contents?" He said we would worry about that IF it got that high. Well,this past week we found ourselves cleaning and throwing stuff out because the station was flooded, and he didn't want to take advice. I helped despite my anguish. But we don't learn lessons. It's the same with training, or my hours of training.
    Quote Originally Posted by fire49 View Post
    I think the idea is not all departments operate the same, to include equipement.

    Yes like training should be counted, but stuff particular to the volunteer dept should be done at the volunteer dept

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    I think you may be on to something. I feel 4 hours of my paid training far exceeds that of 18 hours of volunteer training we perform (or don't). However, I value the time together. If we took our current roster of 35 members, I would say I have attended more calls than 32 of those members. Annual average, I woudl say I am in the top ten.
    Shouldn't tenure count? That was my original post. Tenure and outside training. The only logical responses in support of in-house ONLY training have been knowing department-specific equipment/protocol/roles, and working as a team, knowing others capabilities. So has 17 years and thousands of calls with MY department counted for something?
    Quote Originally Posted by HuntPA View Post
    One of the biggest issues that we face as a small department is knowing what the others can and cannot do and what they do or do not know. It is this personnel familiarization that is vital. Especially if you are talking about 10 minutes before mutual aid gets there.

    As far as the basics and basic tactics, career training and experience is obviously equal to any training a volunteer would get. The amount it is practiced in the real world will be invaluable. But doing so with one group of people where assigned tasks, amount of aid, water supply, and similar factors are known as soon as the alarm is sounded is completely different than in the majority of the volunteer world.

    I would personally disagree with the amount that has to be in house, but the idea that you need to be around the other members of the department and train with them is essential. I also agree that mentoring time, station duty time, and calls should be factored into this as well.

    Maybe a way to approach this would be to ask what the purpose of the in house hours are. If they state something to the effect that the fires you see at your job are different than those they see and your training is completely irrelevant - I would then question staying there. If they state that it has to do with knowing the people in the department, knowing people's capabilities, knowing the department apparatus and SOP's, then I would push to have some way to turn station hours and calls into this required in house time.

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    We don't train on tactics. Your argument may be a generaliziation, but does not apply to my department. We train to complete the hours. That is part of my problem with not allowing my outside hours versus our in-house. Our previous training, I looked around the room and counted 6 people on their phones, playing games, etc. I counted attendance before and during trainign when I attended. We continually had guys leaving before completion, yet their horus counted. This is clearly not about the subject material as much as it is based on principle.
    Quote Originally Posted by captnjak View Post
    It's not that the fires REQUIRE different methods and tactics. It's that the departments may HAVE different methods and tactics. Surely you can understand the difference.

    If your post was in jest disregard this response.

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    In my case, we're talking ONE HOUR. And it isn't about bending rules. The bylaws actually state that the Chief/Asst may sign off on outside hours to be included in teh 18 hours in-house. The problem is that he refused to sign off. It was written in the bylaws to ALLOW LENIANCY as designated by the Chief. In fact, those bylaws were written Out of Order of our bylaws, and accepted at a meeting which was not attended by 2/3 of the department AS required by Bylaws.
    Despite how your departments my operate, ours is not democratic. Our Asst Chief is on City paid workmans comp, and still attending calls and driving trucks.
    Get a sense for the chaos here?
    I am just trying to find a way to tactfully stay or tactfully leave.
    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    And there lies the problem.

    As you stated, if you give one guy a break, where do you draw the line in the future? Irf you believe in standards, then they have to be maintained. I guess my issue is that while the OP has the opportunity to receive training through his workplace, his career FD, most volunteers do not have that opportunity to swap training received on the career side over to the volunteer side.

    Again, 18 hours of training does not seem like a lot. I asked him a few questions so i could get a sense of how often they train, which may or may not modify my opinion, but he has yet to reply.

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    You are on point........so I ask
    Why am I different than the guy who has 18 hours (I have 17), and he shows up to 20 calls/year compared to my 140 calls/year?
    I have a full-time career, kids, and coach high school football, and still attend 17 hours in-house, and in the past two years I had 88 hours of FF/EMS training. I guess I am a bit confused when the 20 year old with part-time/flexible job and no kids who attends 18 hours of training has a better standing in our department.
    I usually stay quiet. That is why I may sound extremely beligerent by speaking up, so I want to choose my path carefully. We have egotistical/volatile guys on our department. They argue for the sake of arguing with each other. I hate the meeting/training side. I love many of the firefighters and the duty. This is where I am torn. If it were 25-30 of these guys, I would raise my concern and let them decide. However, the "leadership" we have is not as easy to convince. It is a legacy, position of convenience, and availability. I have received dome good comments on here, and it has made me view with some perspective. Thank You!
    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    I see three distinct issues here:

    1) Volunteer fire departments, just like career departments, attempting to set standards for training.

    2) Career firefighters believing that because they train, know their equipment, and the way they operate at the career FD, that this exempts them from attending minimum training at the volunteer fire department.

    3) SOME volunteer departments not having flexible enough training programs to be able to schedule around people's work and family life schedules for make-up of missed drills.

    Look, let's be brutally honest here. Dragging a hoseline down a hallway to extinguish a fire, venting a roof, overhaul, water supply, both rural and city, are pretty much the same thing everywhere. What changes is manpower and their abilities, equipment, response times, and tactical changes due to those variables. My career FD was a small city FD with roughly 25 to 32 firefighters on duty daily and rapid availability of mutual aid. Both of my POC FDs are rural, with the village's being hydranted and everything else being tender shuttles. Add to that the daily initial response may vary between 6 and 12 for both FDs and then 10 to 20 minutes for mutual aid to arrive. The reality is between my career FD and my POC FDs they are 2 entirely different firefighting worlds.

    Further, how do firefighters get to know each other if they don't train, go to meetings together, do station duties together, and frankly just socialize around the fire house? How does the guy who never shows up for drill know the local operating guidelines, or even where the equipment is on the rigs? Seriously, I question the validity of not being able to make 24 hours of department training in 12 months. I also question FDs so rigid that they don't arrange alternative training for those who can't make regularly scheduled trainings.

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    pension? Doesn't sound like a volunteer department. We don't get pensions. Or anything. We are VOLUNTEER.
    Quote Originally Posted by kaloric View Post
    You just about sum-up all the key points here. Training is not all about training to the actual skills, it's about developing trust and working relationships with other folks on the department. But those things definitely come along with mentoring time, station duty, & calls, as well as social & volunteer events. It's all about the contact hours, regardless of the activity.

    It seems very counter-productive for the VFD to not do its best to make allowances in order to retain professional firefighters, they're basically getting all that training and experience on some other department's nickel. As long as one is putting in sufficient contact hours across all the activities such that the working relationships are being formed, it could be that inflexible training hour requirements could be serving another purpose.

    I'm sure it depends on the VFD as to what they may be trying to accomplish. Mine recently codified some training hours requirements, and I suspect a lot of that was to have a basis for cleaning-up the freeloaders on the roster who were content to do basically nothing except occasionally show-up to a call and bumble around a little in hopes of staying a member of the department long enough to collect the pension. They made sure not to invite any unintended consequences by allowing the Chief & officers some discretion such that it's not a hard-and-fast rule for the guys who are professional firefighters on other departments, or who spend part of the year out-of-district. They really want to keep the ability to retain the contributors to our department, while losing the dead weight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hills191 View Post
    We don't train on tactics...
    Amazing how one small statement can tell you fathoms about a department.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hills191 View Post
    You are on point........so I ask
    Why am I different than the guy who has 18 hours (I have 17), and he shows up to 20 calls/year compared to my 140 calls/year?

    The straight forward question is simply this...Is 17 hours 18 hours? Obvious answer is no, it isn't. So you didn't meet the required training hours.

    I have a full-time career, kids, and coach high school football, and still attend 17 hours in-house, and in the past two years I had 88 hours of FF/EMS training. I guess I am a bit confused when the 20 year old with part-time/flexible job and no kids who attends 18 hours of training has a better standing in our department.

    Stop making excuses. I had a full time fire job, taught part-time for the tech college, was a member of 2 POC FDs, had 2 kids playing hockey, and was always looking for side work. The one advantage I had was they both, with the chief's approval, accepted specific outside training. Things like certification courses, specialized training courses, and fire schools counted. I never tried to use my career FD to meet my POC FD training requirements. Go ask your career Training Officer if it is okay to skip training next shift because you did training at your volly FD this month. Any guess what the answer may be?

    I usually stay quiet. That is why I may sound extremely beligerent by speaking up, so I want to choose my path carefully. We have egotistical/volatile guys on our department. They argue for the sake of arguing with each other. I hate the meeting/training side. I love many of the firefighters and the duty. This is where I am torn. If it were 25-30 of these guys, I would raise my concern and let them decide. However, the "leadership" we have is not as easy to convince. It is a legacy, position of convenience, and availability. I have received dome good comments on here, and it has made me view with some perspective. Thank You!

    Personalities, some good, some a z z holes, are what make up most FDs. We can choose to play the games others do to stir the pot or rise above them. Like my wife says "Not my circus, not my monkeys."
    You can choose to follow policy for now, and work for change of the policy to allow for outside training. Or wait to be removed for non-compliance. The choice is yours.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hills191 View Post
    pension? Doesn't sound like a volunteer department. We don't get pensions. Or anything. We are VOLUNTEER.
    There is a "pension in Wisconsin if your VFD chooses to participate.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Amazing how one small statement can tell you fathoms about a department.
    Too true...
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    Bottom line is that your VFD has a training standard, which you are fully aware of, and you failed to meet that standard.

    The fact that you are a career firefighter is, IMO, irrelevant. As pointed out by Fryed, your career FD would likely not allow you volunteer training time to meet their standard, so why would you expect the VFD to allow you to use your career hours? Because they are career hours, which form your tone, I get the feeling that you you seem to think are better?

    The fact is that I am a career member as well, but my VFD fully expects me to meet their in-house standard. Do they count all the stuff that I do at my career department when totaling hours, but in the end, I must attend 50% of my VFD's weekly training. Period.

    And by the way, I also teach for the state training agency, do classes for free for other departments and work another part-time job on weekends, so I fully understand that time can be an issue.

    I'm sorry that you seem to have so much discontent with the management and officers of your VFD, but in the end, it's only fair that you meet the same in-house standards that all the other members must meet.

    Any thoughts on why the Chief seems to have such a hard-on for you?
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 07-06-2014 at 12:09 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Bottom line is that your VFD has a training standard, which you are fully aware of, and you failed to meet that standard.

    BINGO! I said that to him repeatedly.

    The fact that you are a career firefighter is, IMO, irrelevant. As pointed out by Fryed, your career FD would likely not allow you volunteer training time to meet their standard, so why would you expect the VFD to allow you to use your career hours? Because they are career hours, which form your tone, I get the feeling that you you seem to think are better?

    I didn't get the impression that he felt he was better. More so that he expected a special break because he did training elsewhere. Having been career and a member of 2 POC FDs at the same time I never tried to use any other FDs training to cover any other FDs requirements.

    The fact is that I am a career member as well, but my VFD fully expects me to meet their in-house standard. Do they count all the stuff that I do at my career department when totaling hours, but in the end, I must attend 50% of my VFD's weekly training. Period.

    Every FD sets its own training requirements, and to me it would be a pretty generous one that allowed you to use another FDs training in place of their own. The issue to me would be content control, local relevance, and time spent actually training.

    And by the way, I also teach for the state training agency, do classes for free for other departments and work another part-time job on weekends, so I fully understand that time can be an issue.

    We are all busy, it is tough for most people to find the time to do what they want to. But if they really want to do something they will get it done. Excuses are easy, performance sometimes is tough.

    I'm sorry that you seem to have so much discontent with the management and officers of your VFD, but in the end, it's only fair that you meet the same in-house standards that all the other members must meet.

    Any thoughts on why the Chief seems to have such a hard-on for you?

    Maybe attitude, maybe expecting special favors, maybe it is a career thing versus the vollies. I don't know. To be honest though I think I have butted heads with the chiefs of both of my POC FDs since I retired than when I was on the job. Maybe it is because I am around more and see more that needs attention.
    Honestly, I don't see this ending well. The chief's unwillingness to bend, and this guy's unwillingness to follow the rules, seem to be a roadmap to confrontation.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 07-06-2014 at 01:39 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    There is a "pension" in Wisconsin if your VFD chooses to participate.
    Same is true in NY and MD. There are others as well.
    Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

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    glad you caught that Bones42. Our best training has been when our career guys offer advise during the training sessions. Area departments call us "the swarm." Both a response quantification, as well as what they see when we are on scene. Scatter without purpose.

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    That is what I chose. My time runs out July 31st. Here is the kicker. They would not accept outside training, but offered for me to set a "daytime" appointment (during my work hours) to have an officer "go through trucks" or something with me. I'm not sure how that qualifies as training while outside, actual fire training does not.
    I quit responding as of July 9th when our last meeting was. It killed me listening to the second, third pages for a response. I am usually one of those guys that responds weekend nights, early AM, etc. Twice now our ambulance or neighboring department has beat us to calls. The next comment at a meeting will be "why isn't anyone showing up to calls?" So you are correct. I thinkl I'll ride it out as a suspension becuase I did not complete 18 hours. I am all about following rules. The problem is I am a morals and ethics trump rules, kind of guy, and it kills me to hear a 2 year old head injury call, and not be able to respond when I am 3 blocks away because my department will not accept 1 freaking hour!!
    I am not making excuse. It's not like I sit at home during training, or avoid training. Our department has two opportunities for training. The first Wednesday night of the month (which eliminates half of the hours for me because of work and coaching football), and One Tuesday night a month (same situation). My hours depend on how many hours (type of training) are offered on that particular night.
    Love your wife's quote. Just tough when I live in such a small, close community. These are 1/3 of the time people I know that are hurt or in need.
    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    You can choose to follow policy for now, and work for change of the policy to allow for outside training. Or wait to be removed for non-compliance. The choice is yours.

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    Good to know. So you put in your own money? Does not exist in Iowa.
    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    There is a "pension in Wisconsin if your VFD chooses to participate.

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    There is no feeling that the training is better. It is organized, everyone participates, and is fully functional relative to what we do. The training at the volunteer department is not organized, about 40% participate (ones that don't still get credit), and rarely involves our equipment or specific needs. I don't expect a comparison here. I expect a department that is hard up for members to respond and remain active should look for ways to protect their able-bodied firefighters. One guy responding is on workers comp from the very City that he responds (not legal). This si a town of 2,400 people and 480 square miles of fire district. Only 2-15 firefighters responding at any given time. I don't expect anything, other than our citizens would love to have a consistent response.
    I appreciate your comments, and I am fully willing to comply. The real question is your last one.
    I am not sure, but let's say I am the highest trained person, ever at our deapartment. I am FFII, Paramedic, and Instructor with a paid position, and very involved elsewhere in my community. The Chief is a legacy firefighter and Fire Chief (his Dad was Chief for 52 years), and he did not get a single certification until two years ago.
    There are many situations like the latest.....our town was under flash flooding, including the Fire Department, and I made some recommendations, and asked him if we should start implementing some planning for evacuations and building protection. I offered to do this. He refused, and said the water was not going to get that high. It did. This kind of thing happens frequently, and I never say "I told You so." I think he knows it, and that frustrates him as well as my success.
    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Bottom line is that your VFD has a training standard, which you are fully aware of, and you failed to meet that standard.

    The fact that you are a career firefighter is, IMO, irrelevant. As pointed out by Fryed, your career FD would likely not allow you volunteer training time to meet their standard, so why would you expect the VFD to allow you to use your career hours? Because they are career hours, which form your tone, I get the feeling that you you seem to think are better?

    The fact is that I am a career member as well, but my VFD fully expects me to meet their in-house standard. Do they count all the stuff that I do at my career department when totaling hours, but in the end, I must attend 50% of my VFD's weekly training. Period.

    And by the way, I also teach for the state training agency, do classes for free for other departments and work another part-time job on weekends, so I fully understand that time can be an issue.

    I'm sorry that you seem to have so much discontent with the management and officers of your VFD, but in the end, it's only fair that you meet the same in-house standards that all the other members must meet.

    Any thoughts on why the Chief seems to have such a hard-on for you?

  24. #49
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    You are partly right here. However, I won't allow confrontation that disrupts our department. I will let the department sink because of their own policy, but not because I was an "issue." I have NEVER expected special treatment prior to requesting this one action. 17 years. Several guys take and take, but I have always given without expectation. I offer my services as an EMS instructor, and offered to do Fire Training (when I was able to work in my schedule) in the past.
    You're right. I do not feel I am better. I do feel the training I received outside was better, and our inside training is worthless. My opinion, and I am still willing to follow the rules. That means I will be suspended from FF duty until I complete 18-24 hours this year. I don't ask for an extension for myself. This is not about me. Thsi si about being a responder in my community for 17 years, and reluctance to turn off that pager, or listen to calls that I cannot attend. Friends and neighbors asking "why weren't you there to help......" and others hearing sirens, seeing fire trucks, and confused why I don't respond. I am a well known and very involved person in my school, church, and community. It is difficult to give something up that is a passion and moral code, not a "requirement."
    I'm not sure you comprehend my schedule. Most people are not busy. Some people have many things going on. Few have multiple responsibilities at the same time, and must choose which to follow. This is a weakness of mine, but it is also an indication of respect that so many groups trust my skills/judgement. This is for each of us to decide how they spend time. However, that is not the issue. I make no excuses for my attendance. I am not asking for them to be as busy as me, or give me credit for time not served. I am asking for reciprocity.
    I have never presented attitude with my department. In fact, I have NEVER addressed my Chief about a personal situation, used my career as a crutch or even talk about it while at the volunteer station. I generally keep my mouth shut, talk to guys as friends, and respond as needed. No drama in my existence. Precisely why I posted here versus bringing it up with someone.
    If any attitude exists, its our Chief/Officers. We did and sometimes still have fights during meetings. At one point, it was a monthly yelling match at meetings. So much that many guys just left. I never involved myself. Kept my opinion to voting, and myself.
    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Honestly, I don't see this ending well. The chief's unwillingness to bend, and this guy's unwillingness to follow the rules, seem to be a roadmap to confrontation.

  25. #50
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    Iowa does not. Purely volunteer with only "benefit" being workmans comp. You may purchase $10 IFA membership for Life Insurance while on duty. That's it. Used to get $5 per call to cover expenses. Even that is now being taxed, so that doesn't even give us anything, especially if you take expenses away.
    Quote Originally Posted by tree68 View Post
    Same is true in NY and MD. There are others as well.

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