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Thread: Dropping 5" on fire alarms

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    For us, we lay in. The few seconds lost in stopping at a hydrant, a guy getting off and pulling the 5", is not the big a deal.

    Department near me tried the deck gun tank method at a few fires. They did not have favorable results.
    What were the conditions?? Tank water and the deck will not work all the time, even when used properly, sometimes the fire is just to big. And a lot of guys don't know how to properly aim one, or use the right pressure for the conditions.
    Personally, not a fan of having my engines down the block at hydrants instead of near the fire scene. I like having all my equipment nearby in case it's needed.

    But that's for us...not for everyone.
    Having the truck nearby means your tools are nearby too.

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    johnsb:

    Originally Posted by MemphisE34a

    Why? You're saying you would stop and let the fire get bigger as you establish a supply line. We could hit it with tank water through the deck gun and the reverse to a hydrant or be supplied by the next pumper - look at the map I linked. We don't have to wait long on water. Both have their pro's and con's - either way the building is a loss.

    Uh, EXACTLY. You CAN'T say you should ALWAYS lay in or out, THE SITUATION DICTATES THE TACTICS. If you're pulling up on a Three story commercial building that's heavily involved, do you really think you tank is going to make a difference?? It takes very little time to stop and lay a line. The connections can be made while using the deck gun.


    The thing you are missing is that they have multiple rigs responding from relatively close distances. They aren't waiting for 10 minutes for the second volly engine to respond or 10-30 minutes for mutual aid. If you routinely operate like they do, and I know plenty of FDs that do, both career and volunteer, it goes pretty smooth and gets the rig on scene quicker. It may allow them to make rescues, or cut off the fire, when taking the time to lay in may prevent that.

    My POC FDs off the officer of that first rig the choice to lay in or not. Most often they do not. My career FD most often did not. At that time Milwaukee FD most often did not. It is not an uncommon tactic.


    Our apparatus come equipped with reverse from the factory. If there is only one way in, we back down and lay out.

    BACK UP?? Seriously?? Are you seriously talking about backing 100' yards or more to a hydrant? That just opens a whole bunch of cans of worms. Safety for one, incoming units, not to mention just being stupid.

    No he is not. He is talking about the supply engine backing to the attack engine and then laying out to the hydrant. Again I know Milwaukee did this routinely on tight city streets. It's only stupid to you because it isn't the way you do it where you are. There are many ways to accomplish tasks in the fire service and just because you don't use this one and some else does, doesn't make it wrong.

    I get the premise and would generally concur, but we never lay in.
    Then you are seriously compromising your capabilities.
    Not in the least. If the first engine gets on scene and initiates fire attack or rescue and the second engine brings them water within a couple of minutes what is compromised? Tank water shouldn't be exhausted by then anyways, unless they gunned it. To me the speed of operations outweighs the time it takes to lay in for the first engine.
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    If they insist on laying in ---- does that mean you need to drag a hand line with you while investigating ?
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    ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    Having the truck nearby means your tools are nearby too.
    I think their problems were more of not being able to get the stream into where the seat of the fire was. Seen where the tank was dumped through the deck gun on a room and contents fire, but small windows, and once the tank was empty watched them wait for a water supply. I believe they would have better results if they stretched a line to the room instead.

    Yes, trucks have tools. So do my engines cuz they function as trucks at many calls.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    I read some responses but didn't see the question asked.

    The question in general is a pretty loaded question. The most important thing we would need to know first is what kind of area are you working with? Is it farmland where a water source is nowhere near the fire scene or is it a residential area where every 500 feet you have another hydrant to choose from?

    Laying in 5" may work for some, but generally the benefits of laying in attack line instead are higher unless the situation demands that 5" based on hydrant location.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BrooklynBravest View Post
    I read some responses but didn't see the question asked.
    The basic question was asking if a supply line should be dropped on all AFA's.
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    My current combo department does not lay in on alarms. Of course, we get than 10 fire alarm trips per year as we have just a handful of structures with alarm systems. My current VFD does not lay in on alarms either, but that being said, we have maybe 3 or 4 alarm trips per year at one or two residences. We currently have no businesses with fire alarm systems.

    My previous VFD in the northeast ran on 300-400 alarm trips per year, and there were times that we laid in if the alarm was a sprinkler trip. In addition, the companies assigned to standby at the hydrants were expected to dress the hydrants for supply operations while staging.

    I know of a rural VFD that always would lay in. The justification that they used was that it reinforced skills and gave the members to opportunity to practice the operations.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    My current combo department does not lay in on alarms. Of course, we get than 10 fire alarm trips per year as we have just a handful of structures with alarm systems. My current VFD does not lay in on alarms either, but that being said, we have maybe 3 or 4 alarm trips per year at one or two residences. We currently have no businesses with fire alarm systems.

    My previous VFD in the northeast ran on 300-400 alarm trips per year, and there were times that we laid in if the alarm was a sprinkler trip. In addition, the companies assigned to standby at the hydrants were expected to dress the hydrants for supply operations while staging.

    I know of a rural VFD that always would lay in. The justification that they used was that it reinforced skills and gave the members to opportunity to practice the operations.
    so I guess none of the members needed to get back to work ?
    ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Not in the least. If the first engine gets on scene and initiates fire attack or rescue and the second engine brings them water within a couple of minutes what is compromised? Tank water shouldn't be exhausted by then anyways, unless they gunned it. To me the speed of operations outweighs the time it takes to lay in for the first engine.
    We have "multiple rigs responding from relatively short distances" too. That still doesn't mean you won't occasionally have a situation where other units nearby are on another job, or you get sent by yourself on a smoke investigation and find a significant fire. OR, you have a situation where you have a dead end drive and you can only get an engine and ladder close to the scene.
    And you've obviously overlooked the scenario's that I'm talking about. I'm talking about fires that are big and WILL need an LDH supply. Saying that there's NEVER a time a dept. would lay in IS limiting your options period.
    And you can generally lay in and use your deck gun with only a few seconds delay. If you next in is right behind you, they can make the connection, or even pump in series if needed. And you should avoid backing on a scene as much as possible, the reason is obvious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    We have "multiple rigs responding from relatively short distances" too. Then what's the problem? That still doesn't mean you won't occasionally have a situation where other units nearby are on another job, or you get sent by yourself on a smoke investigation and find a significant fire. My career FD NEVER sent an engine alone on a smoke investigation. It was usually 1 and 1, or an engine and a quint. The truth is just because a fire department never does something like lay in, doesn't mean it isn't an option open to the officer if they choose to do it. Frankly though if you are laying a line and then not leaving a firefighter to hook it up and charge the hydrant, what's the point? You are still waiting for water. OR, you have a situation where you have a dead end drive and you can only get an engine and ladder close to the scene. If the engine didn't lay in that is the perfect scenario for backing another engine in and laying out.
    And you've obviously overlooked the scenario's that I'm talking about. I'm talking about fires that are big and WILL need an LDH supply. Saying that there's NEVER a time a dept. would lay in IS limiting your options period. I NEVER said never, I explained how other FDs may NEVER lay in. Every FD I have ever been on allows the first in engine to make the decision whether to lay in or not.
    And you can generally lay in and use your deck gun with only a few seconds delay. If you next in is right behind you, they can make the connection, or even pump in series if needed. And you should avoid backing on a scene as much as possible, the reason is obvious. If you take precautions, and use spotters it is no big deal and is done almost everyday somewhere in the country.
    Free your mind, not everyone does things the way you do. You know you used to get all up in my schitt about how I argued with LA, heck you are worse than I was. If something isn't your way you jump up and tell people they are wrong. You just took my place and instead of focusing on just one guy you snipe at everyone. Nice work hypocrite.
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    If we dropped in on every single fire alarm that we responded on, we would have to replace our hose due to wear and tear every 2 years.

    Here's a suggestion: if you are the engine company officer and are responding on a fire alarm, do what your standard operating procedure dictates for water supply. If you have no SOP for water supply for a fire alarm, do what your instinct would tell you to do. If you get a call from your dispatch reporting multiple zones in alarm or multiple rate of rise detectors AND smoke heads tripping, you might want to drop in. If you get a call from your dispatch stating that Police are on location reporting smoke or fire, you might want to drop in. If you get a call from your dispatch stating they are receiving calls from occupants reporting smoke or fire, you might want to drop in.

    If I am the Engine Company Officer and I am responding on a fire alarm with no further information, I'm not going to drop in. If I get there and there is something happening, I'll ask dispatch to transmit the box and we'll hit it with tank water- we have 600 gallons and CAFS- so we can make it last a while.
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    Default Good stuff

    Lots of good info mentioned here. I agree that experience, the situation, etc. should dictate response. Wear and tear on hose and manpower should be a concern. On a day like we have today, heat index at 107, laying out just 300 feet of 5" a couple times will be taxing.
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    And don't forget the fact that you are basically out of service while you are taking up.
    ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDInspector3 View Post
    Lots of good info mentioned here. I agree that experience, the situation, etc. should dictate response. Wear and tear on hose and manpower should be a concern. On a day like we have today, heat index at 107, laying out just 300 feet of 5" a couple times will be taxing.
    Funny you mention that. I was the ECO on an alarm system run just this afternoon. 90+ degrees with high humidity. Early Sunday afternoon when guys want to be at home on their days off.........Only myself and the driver were in the station, everyone else came from home. We were on our way back from the run and I mentioned this thread and how some folks lay out on every single alarm system activation- the guys all laughed, and one of them said "Uhhhh not only no, but PHUCK no."
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Free your mind, not everyone does things the way you do. You know you used to get all up in my schitt about how I argued with LA, heck you are worse than I was. If something isn't your way you jump up and tell people they are wrong. You just took my place and instead of focusing on just one guy you snipe at everyone. Nice work hypocrite.
    Do you need a Snickers again??

    Nowhere did I say you have to do it my way, all I said is you should ALWAYS have the OPTION. Saying you'll NEVER lay in is just plain ignorant, that was the point to the OP. And I didn't say you don't leave a firefighter to make the connection, if you are communicating with the next engine, you can have them do it, or not.
    Read your first sentence in your last post, and then read my sentence after that.
    Try reading comprehension and context.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    Do you need a Snickers again??

    Nowhere did I say you have to do it my way, all I said is you should ALWAYS have the OPTION. Saying you'll NEVER lay in is just plain ignorant, that was the point to the OP. And I didn't say you don't leave a firefighter to make the connection, if you are communicating with the next engine, you can have them do it, or not.
    Read your first sentence in your last post, and then read my sentence after that.
    Try reading comprehension and context.
    Honestly, about 90% of the time you post I either laugh at your hypocrisy or just shake my head. Go back and read how you used to jump all over me for EXACTLY what you do now if someone doesn't agree with you.

    Like I finally told LA I don't care how you do what you do, but I for damn sure don't have to agree and do it that way here.

    Just put me on ignore if I bother you so much.
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    I sell LDH. I wish all of you would hit a hydrant on every call. 8-)

    FyredUp Take a chill pill. Find common ground. You have done it before.

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    Quote Originally Posted by firepundit View Post
    I sell LDH. I wish all of you would hit a hydrant on every call. 8-)

    FyredUp Take a chill pill. Find common ground. You have done it before.
    LA was far more logical and reasonable than JohnSB.
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    Believe it or not, our 1st due engine co. never lays supply line. If there is a hydrant in front of the structure we'll hook in but supply line is 2nd dues responsibility to either lay in or reverse lay out. Geographically we don't have the challenges other departments due where your next in is coming from miles away and may be 10's of minutes out. Generally speaking when we are getting off the rig I can already here the sound of the federal or powercall of the next two companies on the card. Also being on an urban type water grid, we have an abundance of hydrants (most really suck) but there is one within 200' of you wherever you are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LtGary.Engine1 View Post
    Believe it or not, our 1st due engine co. never lays supply line. If there is a hydrant in front of the structure we'll hook in but supply line is 2nd dues responsibility to either lay in or reverse lay out. Geographically we don't have the challenges other departments due where your next in is coming from miles away and may be 10's of minutes out. Generally speaking when we are getting off the rig I can already here the sound of the federal or powercall of the next two companies on the card. Also being on an urban type water grid, we have an abundance of hydrants (most really suck) but there is one within 200' of you wherever you are.
    Much the same as the career FD I was on. Second engine was generally a minute or 2 behind the first engine. Hydrants were usually around 300 feet apart, except in some residential areas. Heck our SOGs said the MPO could hand stretch up to 200 feet of 5 inch. I have done it and while possible it was not in anyway fun!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Much the same as the career FD I was on. Second engine was generally a minute or 2 behind the first engine. Hydrants were usually around 300 feet apart, except in some residential areas. Heck our SOGs said the MPO could hand stretch up to 200 feet of 5 inch. I have done it and while possible it was not in anyway fun!!
    Same here, if the chauffer is establishing his own water supply generally it means hand-jacking it up to the corner. The only thing our first due engine is obligated to do is grab the FDC if present. Specifically on anything greater than 4 stories regardless of call type. As far as the reverse lay goes, for us its the most effective means. In most of the city the streets are very narrow with buildings only a sidewalk width from the curb. There is only room for the pumping engine company and the first two truck companies in front of the fire building. Everybody else, park up the block and start walking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Honestly, about 90% of the time you post I either laugh at your hypocrisy or just shake my head. Go back and read how you used to jump all over me for EXACTLY what you do now if someone doesn't agree with you.

    Like I finally told LA I don't care how you do what you do, but I for damn sure don't have to agree and do it that way here.

    Just put me on ignore if I bother you so much.
    Dude, you must be Bi-Polar or something. Most of what you post in regards to firefighting I agree with. The difference between you and LA, and me and you is that you and others basically disagreed with and bashed everything LA did or said, short of breathing air. I'm merely stated that you should never rule out laying in on a fire. If a dept. predominantly lays out, BFD. But there are some times when laying in WILL be the best tactic. It's just logical.
    You blew up on this, not me. I'm really not getting a burr up my butt on this, just arguing my point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    Dude, you must be Bi-Polar or something. Most of what you post in regards to firefighting I agree with. The difference between you and LA, and me and you is that you and others basically disagreed with and bashed everything LA did or said, short of breathing air. I'm merely stated that you should never rule out laying in on a fire. If a dept. predominantly lays out, BFD. But there are some times when laying in WILL be the best tactic. It's just logical.
    You blew up on this, not me. I'm really not getting a burr up my butt on this, just arguing my point.
    Possibly tri or quad polar. I misinterpreted your intent. I'm cool if you are.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Possibly tri or quad polar. I misinterpreted your intent. I'm cool if you are.
    No problem. I think you're fairly on the money on things, I just sometimes have a different point of view on tactics or topics I'm trying to make, nothing more. When I start stringing a long line of adjectives in front of a curse word, then you'll know I'm dissing you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsb View Post
    No problem. I think you're fairly on the money on things, I just sometimes have a different point of view on tactics or topics I'm trying to make, nothing more. When I start stringing a long line of adjectives in front of a curse word, then you'll know I'm dissing you.
    I can't wait for that day!! I love a long descriptive profane tirade. I have been known to send out one or two in my day!!
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