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Thread: Help with an old rig

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    Default Help with an old rig

    I recently joined a volunteer dept in the town I moved to. We have an old Mack CF pumper that is full of bells and whistles. I was hoping some of you guys with a lot of experience could tell me about what you see in these pics. For the record, I have had some pump operator experience, but not the kind like I'm going to need to be able to efficiently run this truck. Nobody on the dept really knows the whole deal about it, so I am going to figure out as much as I can.

    For starters, we are currently having a problem with the pump shift. When the rig is shifted to neutral and the rig shifted to pump, the rig shuts off when the trans is put back in drive. Not sure what is causing this or where to begin looking. Fortunately, it still shifts into pump manually. We'll get that fixed soon.

    Anyway, on with the pump panels. I know it looks rough. Don't judge. I am going to clean this truck up and fix as much as possible.

    So to start with, here is the upper portion of the driver's side pump panel.



    Here is the lower portion.



    The truck also has a 5" suction on the officers side, which has a wye on it that splits it to two 2.5" inlets. This could be a discharge but I think I remember seeing a suction label near it.

    The truck carries a good bit of LDH for supply. I'm guessing that is what the intake connection is for on the driver side the one seen in the pics. The LDH this truck carries is old woven jacket and does not have storz fittings, so that explains that. I have not looked in the hydrant bag, but I assume one of the main appliances in there is a LDH reducer down to 2.5, for hooking up to hydrants that only have two 2.5" openings.

    So I guess my question Is do you see anything interesting or different? What would do if you got it out and ran it through its paces?

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    You are dealing with a Waterous 2 stage pump. Check the pump plate and find out if it is a 1000 GPM or 1250 pump. If it is a 1250 the actual steamer inlets will be 6" NH even though it is loaded with 5" hose.

    Couldn't see the inlet of the piston intake relief valve but if it has a threaded inlet, it is unique to say the least. I have only seen a couple in captivity.

    Let's see a picture of the passenger side pump panel. There may be something of interest there but, so far it is a fairly normal set up. Oh, and a shot of the rear. Take a look at the front of the hosebed to see if there are any preconnects located there.

    Were I to "put it through its paces" I would do a regular annual pump test to find out how it performs. That is the purpose of the test. It might take a few gaskets, maybe packings, to get past the vacuum test. Maybe even a valve kit or two but, I doubt it. Judging by the controls, Mack used a lot of Waterous valves and those things very seldom need attention. Without seeing the rest of the apparatus I would not be surprised to see it easily pass the test.

    I am not a Mack groupie but do know they are never your average chassis. The setup you have is proven and rock solid. It was basically Mack's answer to the Ford tilt cab setup that nearly every other builder in the US was using. There is really no comparison. I would be willing to bet that it is also a pure joy to drive. If you can shift fast enough.

    Oh, speaking of Mack groupies, take some full shots of the apparatus front, rear and both sides. I guarantee there will be drool on keyboards. From what we have seen so far it looks like a sweet acquisition.

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    I don't want to rain on your parade, but that is a basic set up. When you rely on tags to tell an intake from a discharge, you need to find some local help to do some hands on training. Get a good pump mechanic to fix the pump shift and while he is there ,get him to do a full once over, and a service test. While he is doing the test, watch and ask. And to include some internet info, you need to exercise the change over (volume to pressure) on a more than regular basis. And of course the relief valve also.
    ?

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    I own a 1974 Mack CF and even though it is 40 years old it still drafts and pumps like a champ.

    My guess is the pump shift is getting stuck and not allowing the pump to engage fully. Have an experienced fire apparatus mechanic fix it. Back when mine was in front line service we had to have ours repaired.

    They are an awesome machine, tough as nails.
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    One thing I noticed right away - the #1 discharge gauge looks to be pinned. You'll want to try to replace it. Some collector will have them, somewhere.

    Firepundit's comments are pretty much spot on. Get the serial number of the pump and the transfer case and call Waterous Co. Service at 651 450 5200. The numbers should be on that Mack plate there. Ask them for a service manual for the pump. They used to give them to fire departments free.

    As to the stalling out, I'll take a guess. In your case, one of your comments makes me think you have an automatic transmission, no doubt an Allison HT740. The transfer case is shifted from road to pump by an Eaton two-speed axle shift motor. I'll guess that it's gone bad and isn't completing the shift. So you're staying in road gear. It's an off the shelf item available at most heavy truck dealers and parts houses, maybe even NAPA (Never Any Parts Available). Or possibly, the switch on the dash has gone bad. Again, an off the shelf part, easily obtained and changed out. As to the shift motor, I recall that there was a modification to it but I forget what that was. When you call Waterous, ask them. Their service people are very knowledgeable and helpful.

    As firepundit has said, you have one of the most bulletproof engines ever built. Just keep after the compartment rust. Also, contact me via PM for information on Waterous valves, should you have any in need of repair.

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    Quote Originally Posted by firepundit View Post
    You are dealing with a Waterous 2 stage pump. Check the pump plate and find out if it is a 1000 GPM or 1250 pump. If it is a 1250 the actual steamer inlets will be 6" NH even though it is loaded with 5" hose.
    It is a 1250 / 500 Setup. So I guess that means it has 6" inlets..I assume that means both sides?

    Quote Originally Posted by firepundit View Post
    Couldn't see the inlet of the piston intake relief valve but if it has a threaded inlet, it is unique to say the least. I have only seen a couple in captivity.
    You'll have to excuse my ignorance on this. I am not as experienced with everything like the guys that drive these trucks every day. like I said though, I'm trying to learn all I can. If you point me in the right direction of the exact thing you are talking about, I'll get some close up pictures of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by firepundit View Post
    Let's see a picture of the passenger side pump panel. There may be something of interest there but, so far it is a fairly normal set up. Oh, and a shot of the rear. Take a look at the front of the hosebed to see if there are any preconnects located there.
    Here is the best I have at the moment.





    The rear has two discharges up top, both 2.5". Then it has a booster real at the bottom. There are disharges up top at the front of the hose bed, but I'm not sure about those. The truck used to have a deck gun there. I have seen some old pictures of it at its previous department. The front bumber has a spot for a jumpline, and in the old pics you can see the plumbing coming up through the bumper and the line in place. For some reason the plumbing is gone, and the hole in the bumper is still there.. I don't know what happened to it. I will get up under there and see what I can find, but I am not entirely sure of what I'm looking for. I'm guessing maybe some old piping that should be running up near the cab, and some sort of way to tell that it was originally a discharge coming out of the pump..

    Quote Originally Posted by firepundit View Post
    Were I to "put it through its paces" I would do a regular annual pump test to find out how it performs. That is the purpose of the test. It might take a few gaskets, maybe packings, to get past the vacuum test. Maybe even a valve kit or two but, I doubt it. Judging by the controls, Mack used a lot of Waterous valves and those things very seldom need attention. Without seeing the rest of the apparatus I would not be surprised to see it easily pass the test.

    I am not a Mack groupie but do know they are never your average chassis. The setup you have is proven and rock solid. It was basically Mack's answer to the Ford tilt cab setup that nearly every other builder in the US was using. There is really no comparison. I would be willing to bet that it is also a pure joy to drive. If you can shift fast enough.

    Oh, speaking of Mack groupies, take some full shots of the apparatus front, rear and both sides. I guarantee there will be drool on keyboards. From what we have seen so far it looks like a sweet acquisition.
    As far as a pump test..I have seen that done and know about it, but I don't know the actual prcedure. If anybody could point me towards a link on how to do this or what's required, that would be great.

    As far as the rig, it really is a cool old ride. It is a '77 model. It has a wooden hose bed and you are absolutely right, it is a blast to drive. It has a lot of low end oomph. It feels like it will tote the front tires from a dead stop, lol. It is simple and I like that. At first I didn't realize how cool the old truck was, and just kind of ignored it. But now, it is my favorite. -And since it is obvioius that I will likely be the only one to really take care of it, I am going to do everything I can to learn the truck inside and out. Like I said, this is a small dept that doesn't have a lot of members, and at this point, I'd be willing to bet that I'm in the lead as far as knowledge about this particular truck. It is in a second station we have on the outer part of the district, and it doesn't get near the attention that the main station and its rigs do.

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    I own a 1974 Mack CF and even though it is 40 years old it still drafts and pumps like a champ.

    My guess is the pump shift is getting stuck and not allowing the pump to engage fully. Have an experienced fire apparatus mechanic fix it. Back when mine was in front line service we had to have ours repaired.

    They are an awesome machine, tough as nails.
    I will take a look and see what I can figure out. We'll definitely get somebody in to fix it, I just want to be able to point them in the right direction and learn as much as I can. I don't want to sound completely stupid when they show up, lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by chiefengineer11 View Post
    One thing I noticed right away - the #1 discharge gauge looks to be pinned. You'll want to try to replace it. Some collector will have them, somewhere.

    Firepundit's comments are pretty much spot on. Get the serial number of the pump and the transfer case and call Waterous Co. Service at 651 450 5200. The numbers should be on that Mack plate there. Ask them for a service manual for the pump. They used to give them to fire departments free.

    As to the stalling out, I'll take a guess. In your case, one of your comments makes me think you have an automatic transmission, no doubt an Allison HT740. The transfer case is shifted from road to pump by an Eaton two-speed axle shift motor. I'll guess that it's gone bad and isn't completing the shift. So you're staying in road gear. It's an off the shelf item available at most heavy truck dealers and parts houses, maybe even NAPA (Never Any Parts Available). Or possibly, the switch on the dash has gone bad. Again, an off the shelf part, easily obtained and changed out. As to the shift motor, I recall that there was a modification to it but I forget what that was. When you call Waterous, ask them. Their service people are very knowledgeable and helpful.

    As firepundit has said, you have one of the most bulletproof engines ever built. Just keep after the compartment rust. Also, contact me via PM for information on Waterous valves, should you have any in need of repair.
    You are correct, it is an automatic trans. I'm not sure what trans, but it is an auto. I will do some more research and see where I come up.


    -------------------------------


    Thank you for everyone's help. I'm trying to find any and all info I can about the rig. This may be one of the only places I get quality info, so I appreciate it very much.

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    I guess you are going to ignore my posts , but I stand by them, there are far too many things to learn and can go wrong by learning the basics from the internet. Find some one that will do a hands on pump test and stand side by side with him while he does it. I can sit at my key board and throw out all kinds of nuggets about this particular engine --- such as "relief valve stuck -- probably mineral deposits , many times can be fixed by "hammering" the selector valve ---of course I have to clarify and say by that , I mean while flowing water crank the relief until it engages -- if it doesn't "engage" by engage I mean drop the pressure (oh yeah forgot to tell you to listen also, you can hear the water slip by)-- if it doesn't ,or responds slowly that means its probably stuck from being left in one position, so now while flowing water , take the little chrome bullet shaped lever and open and close it all the while looking and listening. After say -- depends "several" times you should see and hear the relief valve start to open.
    See my point , I could show you much faster and better than I can tell you.
    ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
    I guess you are going to ignore my posts , but I stand by them, there are far too many things to learn and can go wrong by learning the basics from the internet. Find some one that will do a hands on pump test and stand side by side with him while he does it. I can sit at my key board and throw out all kinds of nuggets about this particular engine --- such as "relief valve stuck -- probably mineral deposits , many times can be fixed by "hammering" the selector valve ---of course I have to clarify and say by that , I mean while flowing water crank the relief until it engages -- if it doesn't "engage" by engage I mean drop the pressure (oh yeah forgot to tell you to listen also, you can hear the water slip by)-- if it doesn't ,or responds slowly that means its probably stuck from being left in one position, so now while flowing water , take the little chrome bullet shaped lever and open and close it all the while looking and listening. After say -- depends "several" times you should see and hear the relief valve start to open.
    See my point , I could show you much faster and better than I can tell you.
    I'm not ignoring your post..sorry. I just didn't quote it. I fully agree with what you are saying. We will get somebody out to check it out. I just wanted to ask a few questions form some guys that might have seen one like it before. I want to learn all I can about it, and if this is a place that can help..I'll take any and all info I can get.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheIrons84 View Post
    I'm not ignoring your post..sorry. I just didn't quote it. I fully agree with what you are saying. We will get somebody out to check it out. I just wanted to ask a few questions form some guys that might have seen one like it before. I want to learn all I can about it, and if this is a place that can help..I'll take any and all info I can get.
    got you --- sorry if I come across like an @ss sometimes , I just feel like I can teach a 1000 times better in person. Ill go ahead an add two of the biggest problems I have encountered with that type Mack is lack of use for the relief valve and the change over mechanism for the 2 stage. I have found PB blaster on the pivot point of the change over "gear" works best. Also im pretty sure your valves have locking handles , clean them up good and test all of them while pumping hard , make sure none of them "creep" shut.
    ?

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    Slackjawed, let me know if you got the pm I tried to send you. I'm not sure if I have to be a paying member here or what..it is not showing in my sent folder.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheIrons84 View Post
    Slackjawed, let me know if you got the pm I tried to send you. I'm not sure if I have to be a paying member here or what..it is not showing in my sent folder.
    just got it
    ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheIrons84 View Post
    It has a lot of low end oomph.
    Welcome to Constant Torque, also known as MAXIDYNE!
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheIrons84 View Post
    As far as a pump test..I have seen that done and know about it, but I don't know the actual procedure. If anybody could point me towards a link on how to do this or what's required, that would be great.
    I was under the impression that a fire department bought this. Someone on the department should know about annual tests.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    Welcome to Constant Torque, also known as MAXIDYNE!
    CF685F or CF686F?
    HCFR27 likes this.

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    That old girl may need fluids changed in the pump gear box. Find a local fire truck dealer,they may have someone on staff that knows older trucks and can lend a hand.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperFire123 View Post
    That old girl may need fluids changed in the pump gear box. Find a local fire truck dealer,they may have someone on staff that knows older trucks and can lend a hand.
    All Waterous chain cases (gearboxes) take Dexron III ATF. Since Dexron III may be phased out because many autos that used it are now taking other fluids, it would be a good idea to check with Waterous Co. to find out if they have any updated recommendations. Dexron III should be available for some time.

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