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  1. #1
    ADSN/WFLD
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post FDNY and the Vindicator

    I just saw on the unofficial FDNY web page www.nyfd.com that the Vindicator is being tested by New York's R&D center. My question is how would your impression of the Vindicator change if New York started to use them on their equipment.

    The photos show a 15/16 flowing 188 GPM and then a 2 1/2 Vindicator flowing over 400 GPM being held by one man using two hands.

    If the busiest fire department in the world started using the Vindicator would you consider using it?


  2. #2
    BIG PAULIE
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Bigger and busier isn't always better. The nozzle should be evaluated for what it can do based on what the needs of any department . Fires burn in every city not just NY

  3. #3
    FireFJayT
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Talking

    While I agree with Big Paulie that it may not be for everybody it is sickening when someone on here says "Fires burn in other places than FDNY". No Shi*! It rubs some guys raw that their departments, with shiny equipment and ISO ratings and their mobile Command tractor trailers, don't see the action that FDNY or Chicago, or Philly, or Baltimore or San fran....or BOSTON. Hey, you look at what works. Some guys often dismiss something they have heard because the jakes in the Northeast do it. What is that? Once again we all know the stars, the best, the ones others look up to! Just talk about the Vindicator.

    [This message has been edited by FireFJayT (edited October 27, 2000).]

  4. #4
    BIG PAULIE
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    To FireJayT and anyone else who was unhappy with my comments Iam sorry. All I meant to say was that I would not make a desicion to use a new piece of equipment just because a famous fire department used it. It has to fit the needs of where it might be implemented. Example. FDNY uses smooth bore tips. It works well for them My department(Las Vegas) Finds that automatic nozzles is our weapon of choice. Thats all I was talking about.

  5. #5
    FireFJayT
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Big Paulie,

    I understand where your coming from now. Your a brother....Las Vegas huh....sounds like fun. Stay safe Paulie

  6. #6
    Fletcher
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Question

    There must be some validity to this new technology if the NYFD thinks it's great. I heard they recently evaluated POK nozzles and they didn't last a week on the street. I find it amazing how anyone couldn't find an application for a nozzle that flows 400 gpm with one man on the line. Volume puts fires out, plain and simple. Combo nozzles have their place but come on, is there no place for a nozzle like this in the fire service. My interest is peaked.

    Stay Safe

    [This message has been edited by Fletcher (edited October 27, 2000).]

    [This message has been edited by Fletcher (edited October 27, 2000).]

  7. #7
    Fired0g
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    The short answer - Yes, if FDNY replaced their 15/16" smooth bore tips with another type of nozzle it would definitely get my attention. While I would never advocate "one man on a line," I would agree that "volume puts fire out." I would add that it puts fire out faster, thus increasing the odds of survivability for trapped occupants.

    As far as the off the cuff comment that was made, it's not a matter of a department being "famous" or not. FDNY is the biggest department in the country and they do a fair bit of firefighting, substantially more than say...Las Vegas. They also review their operations frequently and make every effort to LEARN from the amount of work they do. And, God bless them, they openly and freely share these lessons with anyone who is interested. The bottom line? You do more work, you learn what works and what doesn't. That is credibility. That is why departments like FDNY, Boston, Philly and Baltimore City are often emulated and why what they do gets noticed.

    ------------------
    "We don't go to work, we go to war."

  8. #8
    ADSN/WFLD
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Big Paulie, has your department evaluated the Vindicator. You say that an automatic nozzle is Vagas' weapon of choice, I would think with your large hotels and casinos you would want to flow as much water as possible.


  9. #9
    BIG PAULIE
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    No they have not.. I have had good luck with large smooth bore tips up to 1-1/2". Example: A 1-1/2" tip at 40 psi nozzle pressure flows 423 gpm at a 141 pound nozzle reaction. The stream is plenty good for an interior attack and is some what user friendly for highrise operations that have building low pressure problems. I dont know how the nozzle reaction compairs to the vindicator at the same flows but I can say that it is a manageable line.

  10. #10
    STATION2
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Not to pick a fight with FireFJayT, Firedog, or Paulie, but the Houston Fire Department is the third largest fire department in the country and we already use the Vindicator. Go back two or three years ago and we actually made more fire calls, including structural fires, than any other department in the country and we are still up there with FDNY, Chicago and LAFD. I'm not saying we are better than FDNY or Chicago. I have ridden in both places and the brothers and sisters there do great work. HFD doesn't get as much publicity on the national level as other departments, oh well. Just because a department does or does not use a certain nozzle, tool or SCBA doesn't make them better or worse and it doesn't lend more credibility to a nozzle if they do use them. I agree with Paulie in that you need to research what nozzle, tool or SCBA is better for your community, department and members. Don't go with something just because the big boys are. How many reading this are in a department that waited until FDNY started issuing bunker pants and coats before you got some? I'm not slamming FDNY, they got the gear when it suited them and their members, you have to do the same. As for Fletcher, if my department used POK nozzles and FDNY chucked them, I would hope we wouldn't toss them also just because the DC over R&D read this forum. We would find out why FDNY did and talk to our companies and see if OUR people were having problems, not just blindly do the same. When I was in Brooklyn about 5 years ago, the brothers of Engine Co. 231 couldn't fathom the idea of wearing my Reed Hood I had with me. In Chicago, the Lt of Squad Co. 1 downtown said "You got bunkers for your head" when I put it on for a still and box. At the same time I would not advocate using certain "modifications" that I saw in FDNY or still wearing long coates and hip boots like in Chicago. What works for us works for us and what works for FDNY and Chicago works for them. 2 sides to every story and atleast that many for every opinion. Just my thoughts. Be safe.

    Larry

    P.S.: What about a side bar topic: What department has the most aggressive Truck Co.'s and why? I know the ones I saw in FDNY and Chicago would be up there in this one.

    [This message has been edited by STATION2 (edited October 28, 2000).]

    [This message has been edited by STATION2 (edited October 28, 2000).]

  11. #11
    FireFJayT
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Talking

    Station 2,

    Houston has a great department and by no means did I intend to leave you out. I was just coming up with names off the top of my head. I missed a great number of departments. Stay safe!

  12. #12
    S. Cook
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    "How many reading this are in a department that waited until FDNY started issuing bunker pants and coats before you got some?"

    Great point Larry.

    Dallas has also been eval'ing the vindicator for a few months.

    Do we buy, or give a closer look to, the same brand of turnouts, hose, apparatus, boots, radios (the list goes on...) that FDNY uses just because they use them?

    Nope.

    If it looks like it would work for us we'll eval it. But not because the FDNY uses it.

    To answer the first question "how would your impression of the Vindicator change if New York started to use them on their equipment."

    My impression wouldn't change (on any product)until we eval it and find it to be better than what we already have.

    [This message has been edited by S. Cook (edited October 28, 2000).]

  13. #13
    S. Cook
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Also,

    Shouldn't we be comparing apples to apples here?

    The 15/16" is on a 1-3/4" line and the vindicator is on a 2-1/2".

    And if the FF in the pic is holding a Vindicator at 400gpm by himself, he can certainly hold a smooth bore flowing the same or better by himself. The guage looks like it reads 50psi on the vindicator, an 1.5" smoothbore would give 400gpm at less than 40psi.

    Now, look closer at the pic, the vindicator is attached to a smooth bore threaded tip!

    [This message has been edited by S. Cook (edited October 28, 2000).]

  14. #14
    ADSN/WFLD
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    S. Cook, I think the point being made in the pictures is that one man only is holding the line in both cases.

    Also the thing the vindicator is threaded to is a pressure gauge not a smooth bore tip.

    Speaking for myself, when I first heard about, and saw the vindicator I thought that the numbers I was told couldn't be correct. But after seeing it used on a number of drills, and a fire, I feel that it has a place in the fireservice. Everything that has been said about the nozzle I have found to be true. It flows a ton of water and the line is easy to handle. Because of the volume it flows the line doesn't kink, and for foam, (AFFF), I have found it to be the only nozzle I would recommend.

    Any department that considers themselves "progressive" should have a rep come out on a drill night and show you what it can do. Give them a chance, the worst thing that could happen is you may learn more about hydraulics and how your equipment works.

    Stay Safe

  15. #15
    ADSN/WFLD
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Also, you stated that an 1.5" tip will give you 400 GPM. If your using 2.5" hose we have found that the line kinks often. Most often when you don't follow the 1/2 the diameter of the hose guideline, you'll begin to have problems with the stream. We experimented with larger tips on a three inch line and found the higher flows very hard to handle. The Vindicator flowing 400 + GPM is remarkably easy to handle and move, ( that was on a 2.5" line), I've never tried the Blitz Attack nozzle on a 3" line.

  16. #16
    S. Cook
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    "Also the thing the vindicator is threaded to is a pressure gauge not a smooth bore tip."

    OK if you want to get technical.

    The vindicator is attached to a pressure gauge which is attached to a smoothbore tip with a gate valve on a 2-1/2" line (we don't get to see the line). (Actually it looks like a "butterfly" handled smoothbore nozzle for a 2-1/2" line, but either way the water goes through it before it gets to the vindicator.)

    "If your using 2.5" hose we have found that the line kinks often."

    We haven't had this problem.

    "We experimented with larger tips on a three inch line and found the higher flows very hard to handle."

    What were you trying to do with the line? We don't have any trouble. Even our "lightweights" can handle it.

    "I've never tried the Blitz Attack nozzle on a 3" line."

    Don't take my word for it, give it a try if you've got the hose laying around. We use a Big Paulie with a set of 1-1/8" and 1-1/2" stacks on it on both the 2-1/2" and the 3".

    And throw the tradition of 80psi on the tip out the window and see for yourself how good the stream can be at higher flows.

  17. #17
    Ind.FF/EMT
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    I have been on a 3" line with a Blitz Attack nozzle it was very impresive it took 3 of us to hold the line but we were flowing over 470 gpm (flow meter was inline).

  18. #18
    ADSN/WFLD
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Perhaps I'm just splitting hairs but looking at the picture from left to right.

    2.5" hose (just outside of picture), Playpipe with shutoff (elkhart B-278 or equivalent) inline pressure gauge with 1.5" threads, then the Vindicator Blitz attack line.

    You wouldn't want a smoothbore tip before the vindicator because it would restrict the flow going into the vindicator.

    What are we doing with the bigger lines we tried? Interior attack, We have a 200' preconnected 2.5" line with an Akron model 1727 tip on it. We have used it successfully on many well involved structures, including one good attic fire in a large house 2500 to 3000 sqft open space. Now that we have a vindicator, we can use the smaller line to achive the same or better flows.

    The Vindicator Blitz Attack will give us the opportunity to make a hit on some fires that would have been considered marginal with a single handline.

    [This message has been edited by ADSN/WFLD (edited October 30, 2000).]

  19. #19
    ADSN/WFLD
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Oh, just so you know. I don't sell the Vindicator, or any other fire equipment.

    I was always a staunch supporter of the smooth bore for both 1.75" and 2.5" lines. After working with the vindicator I've seen the benefit of this nozzle. It's not an end all be all, but for a good working structure fire it's a very good tool.

    On a master stream I'd still go with a smooth bore.

    [This message has been edited by ADSN/WFLD (edited October 30, 2000).]

  20. #20
    KEA
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    WOW! I never imagined so much contraversy could come from a simple nozzle demonstration.

    For the record!
    The FDNY does not currently use the Vindicator nozzle, nor was the demonstration done as a comparison of ANY size or type nozzle as some have tried to imply.

    The 49th Battalion Chief Jerry Tracy posted 3 photos out of probably 10-15 that he took during the demonstration. After meeting him, I'm confident that he is fully capable of evaluating products with an open mind and would agree that the demonstratoin was just that, a demonstration showing potential of a product.

    The R&D division of FDNY is also fully capable of evaluating products of any type and I'm sure they are smart enough to do a Apples to Apples comparison.

    The Smooth Bore photo posted was to simply show a stream being pitoted. The flowmeter photo simply shows that a flow meter was used. They are not representative of any particular test!

    The last photo simply shows the Vindicator flowing water. The caption discusses the flow from this line.

    ADSN/WFLD: You are correct in the fact that the nozzle is being supplied by a 2 1/2" line attached to an Elkhart Brass Playpipe with a pressure gauge installed at the exit of the play pipe followed by a Vindicator Blitz Attack.

    What the nozzle is attached to is irrelevant as long as the "ID" is 1 3/8" minimum.

    STATION2: Thanks for your comments. You and your brothers were instrumental in proving what we found in our testing.

    The mind is like a parachute!
    It works best when its Open!

    Take care and stay safe!



    ------------------
    Kirk Allen
    First Strike Technologies, Inc

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