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  1. #1
    ArmyTruckCompany
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post Trailer Fire, LODD, NW Pa.

    Anyone else catch the article on the front page here regarding the member that died in the line of duty at a trailer fire?? Anyone as ****ed off about it as I am?? WHY DID A MEMBER HAVE TO DIE FOR A TRAILER?? IT MAKES ME WANT TO SCREAM!!!! A LODD is no good in ANY circumstance...BUT A TRAILER???? A TRAILER????

    My prayers go out to the family, the friends, and the brothers of the department that suffered this travesty. Someone needs to answer for this....This is just way to stupid to allow to go unanswered!!!

    ------------------
    "Loyalty above all else, except honor."


  2. #2
    BayRidge60
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Angry

    ATC - I couln't agree with you more. It's only January 11, and we've had way too many LODD this year.

    ------------------
    Glenn Ralston
    Firefighter/EMT-D
    Bay Ridge Fire-Rescue
    byrdg60@netscape.net

  3. #3
    SFD-129-3
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Thumbs down

    Guys lets not be too quick to judge here. None of us were there and none of us know the circumstances. I doubt any of us would have backed out if there were any doubts about entrapment. Im not saying this is the case, but lets not jump to conclusions. Yes a brother is dead over questionable actions. Lets put those actions aside for now and mourn the loss of a true hero, someone who willingly risked his life doing a job to help someone else. A job many of us do today........

  4. #4
    Firelover
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    I agree with SFD. How can you be so mad at something that you weren't there. I know that I'm saddened by the lost of another FF, but we really don't know what happened in there. According to the acticle, there was a flareup and a propane tank in the basement that was feeding the fire. Doesn't matter what type of dwelling it is, if something flares up, there's not always somewhere to go.

    Just my thoughts,



    ------------------
    Joel

    If you sent us to HELL, WE'D PUT IT OUT!!

  5. #5
    HHoffman
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Unhappy

    When I returned from the USMC I ran with a company in this county. Rockey Groce Fire Company was a well run company. Let's let the NIOSH investigators find out what happened.

    To all the Brother and Sisters in Vanango County. you are in my prayers.

    ------------------
    Henry C. Hoffman Jr.

  6. #6
    SFD161
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Unhappy

    Coming from a small town volly dept., I am a firm believer that we are more LUCKY than GOOD. We (the entire fire service) are risking our lives everyday protecting property. Occasionally we are called to protect a life, but for the most part it is just property. Something bad can happen at any moment.......but usually doesn't. In the case of the trailer fire....IT HAPPENED.

    It is just like chasing women...sometimes we let our "hose" do the thinking instead of our heads. Example....we roll up to a fully involved house fire and have it set in our minds that we are going to save the house. All we end up doing is leaving more for the excavators to knock down. We know in the back of our minds that the house is a gonner, but hit it hard anyway (sometimes taking chances) Why do we do this?.....because we love it.

    99.9% of the time we come out alive.......
    That 0.1% unfortunately showed up in PA.

    And to Army........I know you didn't mean anything bad by your comments but.....
    A trailer is not just a trailer.....it is someone's home just the same as a 5 bedroom 4 bathroom with a three stall garage.

    I am speaking for myself when I say that I would treat both equally as far as the effort I give. On that same note, I would respect each fire for the unique threats each one poses.


    No more LODD's

    ------------------
    VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTER....THE UNPAID PROFESSIONAL

  7. #7
    Engine 101
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Unhappy

    According to the USFA there have been six LODD's, SIX, Jeez at this pace we're going to surpass 99 and maybe surpass 76 I think it was were we lost 171, No more, Everyone stay safe please, I send my deepest condolences to our brothers family, This is very difficult time for them so may our prayers, thoughts and best wishes comfort them through out this difficult time

  8. #8
    fc80chief
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Exclamation

    ATC - its nice to see that you can form a rational, informed, opinion from looking at 1 photograph and reading a few lines of text, I shudder to think about what opinion you can come up with if you actually talked to somebody who was there. Also, I bet all of the residents that you currently serve or have served in the past all lived in mansions in largemont. The people we serve are the people we serve no matter what they live in.

    I am not saying that it is good or even acceptable that this young man had to "DIE FOR A TRAILER", I am saying that we all should have the same dedication to an incident whether it be a trailer fire or a fire in a $500,000 residence.

    A firefighter has fallen, and that my friends above all else is a tragedy of great proportions, not just for the fire service, but for his family, his department, and his community. Lets not add to this tragedy by making false assumptions and calling for heads to roll until all of the facts are in.

    All of my prayers to the family of LT. White, I am sure that he will be sorely missed.



    [This message has been edited by fc80chief (edited 01-12-2001).]

  9. #9
    Jvettorel
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Let's define TRAILER......
    Most people think of a trailer as a 14' x 40' aluminum home on wheels. This Trailer happened to be a double wide pre-manufactured home 28' x 50+' long, that they put on a basement foundation. The trailer was more of a house than some houses that I have been into. Yes it is a shame that a brother has passed on, but let's not blame why or what he was trying to do.. Save a persons home....

    Just my personal opinion......

  10. #10
    FFTrainer
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    I have to agree with Jvettorel on this one. I'm sure some of you have and some of you have not dealt with trailer fires. We're not talking Tractor Trailer or Pop Up camper, we're talking about a structure that is larger than many apartments we fight fires it, many condos we fight fires in and some 'standard' houses we fight fires in. There really is no difference here. The driving factor is that this was someone's home and personal property and we enlisted in this job to save life and property acknowledging the fact that with trying to accomplish this task, injury, or in this tragic case, death could be the result.

    It all comes back to the fact that we can take no fire for granted because NONE are ever routine, NOT ONE is ever the same and NOT ONE is ever safe!!! We can try to reduce our risk by wearing gear, working in teams, venting excess heat and toxins, but in the end it is an out of control fire we are dealing with and it doesn't care whether it is burning in a dumpster, a school, a car, a million dollar mansion or in this case a trailer. It still wants to do one thing -- BURN!!

    Stay safe out there and let's not make this into something it doesn't have to be. It is a LODD of one of our brothers. Acknowledge the tradedy and let our brother rest in peace knowing he gave his all trying to save someones home!

  11. #11
    fjbfour
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Not that it will help much at this point, but something to file away in your memory... I used to work at a factory assembling "high" quality single and double wide manufactured homes. They're still way flimsier than a regular structure, mainly to facilitate easier transportation. They have to be light enough to move and such, if they get too heavy, they will tear apart during the transportation phase. Instead of going lightweight high-tech materials, they usually go with flimsier (read: smaller, thinner, etc.) building materials. They look and feel great, but are usually cheap crap under the pre-printed 3/8" sheetrock. If you ever get trapped in one, you will have virtually no trouble kicking your way through an interior or even exterior wall. You may have to unstrap your SCBA to fit between the 2x3's (at least exterior walls are 2x6's), but most manufactured homes are no match for a strong boot kick. One swift punch will pull those staples right out.

  12. #12
    res7cue
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Army,

    How in the h*** can you even make such a statement when all you based it on is one small article/photo.

    All this does is show your true ignorance, as was the case on the PG county post.

    Some day you'll grow up!!!!

  13. #13
    res7cue
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Army,

    How in the h*** can you even make such a statement when all you based it on is one small article/photo.

    All this does is show your true ignorance, as was the case on the PG county post.

    Some day you'll grow up!!!!

    Forgot to show my signature, wouldn't want to be slammed for that!!!

    ------------------

  14. #14
    Fire Line
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Slamming each other doesn't help. No one wants to read or hear about a LODD. Lets wait for the facts. Hopefully we all can learn from this tragedy.

    My condolences to Lt. White's family.

  15. #15
    FiRsqDvr45
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    To those who have said " How can you justify your comments by looking at a picture and some text?", let me ask this: Where do YOU get off telling this person that his anger over the loss of a firefighter is wrong because of his text? We all vent and raise points in different ways let us not say ours is the only way or "right" way. Easy brothers...

    ------------------
    FF/EMT Jay Ellingson
    Newington,NH FD
    &
    New England Dragway Safety Team (Sundaaayy!)
    Be Safe!

  16. #16
    Skidz
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    ArmyTruckCompany and Others,


    I will shed some light on what I know about Trailers (Manufactured Housing). About 1 year ago I did a term paper for a Building Construction for The Fire Service college class. The text used was by the one an only Frank Brannigan. Ok, I will not assume any thing because I was not there. I will just present some information that I have somewhat researched. Some of the research I did was photographed dozen or more new 2000 model homes and homes that the year where unknown. All of my photos came from the Indiana, Pennsylvania area. Some of the homes had basements, add-ons, some where tip outs and there where standard looking homes as well. The photos were at many angles. The undercarriage, I photographed the thickness of many interior and exterior wall, and even took the time to examine the cabinetry. Most of my research is basic and not too formal. So here we go.

    Ok, Jvettorel the article says it was a single wide with a basement and not a double wide. “This Trailer happened to be a double wide pre-manufactured home 28' x 50+' long, that they put on a basement foundation.”(Jvettorel said). As for FFTrainer “We're not talking Tractor Trailer or Pop Up camper, we're talking about a structure that is larger than many apartments we fight fires it, many condos we fight fires in and some 'standard' houses we fight fires in. There really is no difference here.” Please tell me that you are not training your firefighters that trailers (manufactured housing) is no different than fighting an apartment fire. You could not be anymore wrong with this statement. Fjbfour I take everything you say with a ditto. These structures are flimsier than we are making then out to be. These houses have their own NFPA Standard 501B in which all of the manufactured housing dealers did not even know about and one manufacturer of the homes would not comment.

    Let me cut to the chase. The floor system consists of its framing members, generally conventional 2-by 6-in. or 2- by 8-in wood joists, with plywood decking glued and nailed to the joists, glass fiber insulation blankets installed between the joists, and an asphalt-impregnated insulation board sealing the bottom of the floor system. Then you have the ductwork cutting through the joist and some carpet or linoleum covering the floor. Not must protection under the house if there is a fire in a basement.

    The wall system, utilizing the stressed-skin principle, consists of an interior skin of plywood that is glued and nailed to wood studs, and an exterior skin of aluminum siding. The structural loads dictate the actual sizing of members. Insulation batts are placed between the studs.

    Steel tie plates reinforce connections between the walls and floor systems; diagonal steel strapping binds the floors, walls, and roof into a complete unit.

    These houses are not made of much and unless the homeowner will normally only bulk up what the manufacturer has installed.

    My blessing go out to the Family and the Department of the loss of their loved one. \

    This is just a tiny bit of information that I have learned through a term paper.


    SKIDZZ


    ------------------
    PROUD, PROFESSIONAL, PROGRESSIVE


    Member IAFF Local 1664
    esfpd444@starpower.net

  17. #17
    ArmyTruckCompany
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Ok, first is first.....I apologize for going off without doing my homeowrk first. At least I am man enough to do that, which is more than I can say for a lot of the bashers here that decided to railroad me. I went off and posted this topic because I was appalled at the number of LODD's and it wasn't even Frbruary yet. I also thought- "my god....a trailer......WHY"???

    OK, my ignorance: I am merely a victim of circumstances. I had no clue there were trailers or prefabricated homes with basements. No clue at all. I reside in the city of Philadelphia, and was born & raised in the shadows of Philly in Montgomery County, Pa. where there are no trailers or pre fab homes. Therefore, I simply had no exposure to them. The one fire I did expierience was in a construction trailer, a portable office, about the same size as a trailer home. The IC decided he wasn't going to risk guys for a dumpster with windows, so he had us stick the knob in the doors & windows, a tactic which I agreed with. As for the member that posted that the trailer was someone's home, you are absolutely correct, I didnt think in that way. And as for res7cue, obviously you didnt read my second post in the PG forum. It wasn't ignorance, it wasnt attitude, it was my OPINION which, by the way, I am entitled to have.

    ------------------
    "Loyalty above all else, except honor."

  18. #18
    FFTrainer
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Hey Skidz -- Just want to let you know that I am not training the same for all structures mentioned. I was simply trying to get across the fact that this is still someone's home and property and it is still an active structure fire and that we cannot take anything for granted -- even if we think it is "Just a trailer" because you just never know what has gone into the construction, the maintenance, or the renovations.

    Stay safe!

  19. #19
    Skidz
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    FFTrainer,

    Thank you for you clarification. I think the same way as far a the property goes but, when you need to be thinking of construction principles its a different story. Thank you.

    SKIDZZ


    ------------------
    PROUD, PROFESSIONAL, PROGRESSIVE


    Member IAFF Local 1664
    esfpd444@starpower.net

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