1. #1
    FIRE549
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post ISO Company Personnel

    I am compiling research on the Company Personnel Item from the ISO Fire Suppression Rating Schedule. I would like to find out what departments, that have achieved an ISO Class 1, 2, or 3, scored on this item. I am trying to develope what a reasonable score would be.

    Any help on this matter would be greatly appreciated.

    ------------------

  2. #2
    LHS*
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    All but two (of 42) of the Class 1's scored 10 points. The two volunteers 1's scored 13 and 27 points.

  3. #3
    FIRE549
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Thanks for the quick reply LHS. Question: I thought 18 points was the max you could score on the company personnel item? You had 27 for one of the Class 1 volunteer departments.

    Any information on any Class 2 departments?

  4. #4
    LHS*
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    //I thought 18 points was the max you could score on the company personnel item?

    Nope, 30 points is the limit.

    Any information on any Class 2 departments?

    Class 2's (306) 8.25 points ave.


    [This message has been edited by LHS* (edited 01-12-2001).]

  5. #5
    FIRE549
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Exclamation

    Thanks again!

    The # 306 is that the number of Class 2 departments in the country?

    I am also impressed with the speed of your ability to generate data!

    [This message has been edited by FIRE549 (edited 01-12-2001).]

  6. #6
    Jolly Roger
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Cool

    Larry is an ISO GOD!


  7. #7
    LHS*
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Yep 306 Class 2's. 0.068% of all grades.
    1,150 Class 3's 2.5% of all grades.

    Volunteer Class 3's score about 4 points.

  8. #8
    FIRE549
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Smile

    I just figured out who you are LHS. I have enjoyed the ISO news in Fire-Rescue.

    While I am at it, what is a good average score (company personnel) for a Class 3 department that has scored 75 points or higher?

    I would like to sit down and talk shop with you someday about ISO. Thanks for all your help!

  9. #9
    Jake295885
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Question

    Is there a way to find out the ISO ratings of cities? I also understand that the NFPA has lowered the minimum standards for things like ground ladders to accommodate quints, but the ISO hasn't, is this true? If it is, how many cities have been led down the primrose path of the advantages of quints?

  10. #10
    LHS*
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Class 3 score 7.5 in staffing.

    Richmond VA.

    You had a lousy fire department. It is now a better fire department. If you had't got the quints you were going to lay off 50 guys and close 2 stations and keep the oldedst fleet of any city in the US. That was your old chiefs plan. So the choice. Old crappy FD, less guys, with junky trucks or new rigs and eventual attrition with the same number of stations. Sounds like a no brainer to me.

    Now every rig carries big hose, defibs, etrication equipment, etc.

    Sure you made a few mistakes, but you're not the old Richmond of before. You get more rigs and people per call now than before.

    As far as your ISO grade you'll do better with Quints than without. Sure NFPA has watered things down, your FD upgraded over NFPA.

    Here are the NFPA differences with ISO

    Pumper Equipment and Hose

    Equipment and hose Needed Total Points

    Booster tank 300 gal. 30
    Hose:
    Booster* 200' 12
    1 1/2" or 1 3/4" carried 400' 24
    1 1/2" or 1 3/4" spare (may be also be carried) 200' 8
    2, 2 1/2" or 3" spare (may also be carried) 200' 12
    Heavy stream appliance (1,000 gpm)+ 1 100
    Distributing nozzle 1 5
    Foam eductor 1 4
    Foam:
    Carried 10 gal. 6
    Spare may also be carried 15 gal. 6
    Nozzles:
    2 1/2" play pipe with shut-off 2 40
    2 1/2" straight stream and spray with shut-off 2 60
    1 1/2" straight stream and spray with shut-off 2 20
    SCBA 30-minute minimum 4 64
    Extra cylinders (carried) 4 16
    Salvage covers (12' x 18') 2 4
    Electric hand light (4V. wet, 5V. dry) 2 4
    Hose clamp 1 4
    Hydrant hose gate (2 1/2") 1 4
    Burst hose jacket (2 1/2") 1 4
    Gated wye (2 1/2" x 1 1/2" x 1 1/2") 1 4
    Radio:
    mounted 1 32
    portable 1 16
    Ladders:
    12' or 14' roof 1 10
    24' extension 1 15
    Annual tests:
    Pumper 1 100
    Hose 1 50
    Total 654
    __________________________________________________ ______________________
    Extra pre-connected 1 1/2" hose may be substituted for booster hose.
    + A heavy stream device is not needed for a basic fire flow of less than 1,500 gpm.


    Equipment for a Service Company

    Equipment Needed Total Points
    Large spray nozzle (500-gpm minimum) 1 16
    SCBA 30-minute minimum 6 96
    Extra cylinders (carried) 6 24
    Salvage covers (12' x 18') 10 20
    Electric generator (2,500-watt) 1 25
    Floodlight (500-watt) 3 12
    Smoke ejector 1 20
    Oxyacetylene cutting unit 1 20
    Power saw 1 20
    Electric hand light (4V wet, 6V dry) 4 8
    Hose roller (equip. hoist) 1 4
    Pike pole (plaster hook):
    6' 2 4
    8' 2 4
    12' 2 4
    Radio:
    Mounted 1 32
    Portable 1 16
    Ladder:
    10' collapsible 1 4
    14' extension 1 5
    Total 334


    Additional Equipment for Aerial, platform or quint


    Equipment Needed Total Points
    Ladders:
    16' roof 1 20
    20' roof 1 20
    28' extension 1 20
    35' extension 1 20
    40' extension 1 20
    Elevated stream device* 1 100
    Aerial ladder/elevating platform* 1 200
    Annual tests aerial/platform 1 50
    Total 450

    *Or sufficient height to reach the roof of any building, or 100', whichever is less. The credit shall be prorated if existing equipment has insufficient reach.


    Acceptable ISO Equipment Substitutions

    Supply Hose

    Every engine is suppose to carry 1200 feet of 2 ½" or larger (3", 3 ½", 4", 4 ½", 5", 6", etc) supply hose. That amount is broken into two categories. You need to carry 400 feet of 2", 2 ½" or 3" and the 800 foot balance can be larger than 3 inch and should be.

    If you pack LDH you'll also get 33 to 75% more credit for distant fire hydrants, for full ISO hydrant credit room for 1000 feet of 5 inch hose and 400 feet of 2, 2 ½ or 3 inch hose is needed.

    Water Tank

    A tank with 300 gallons or more is the standard.

    Attack Hose.

    Every engine is suppose to carry one 200 foot booster reel and two 200 foot 1 ½" pre-connected attack lines. A 200' foot pre-connected 1", 1 ½", 1 ¾" or 2 inch soft hose attack line will receive full credit in lieu of the booster reel. The two 1 ½" pre-connects can be 1 ¾" or 2" lines.

    Spare Hose

    Each engine needs a total of 200' of 2 ½" and 200 feet of 1 ½" spare hose. It can be carried on the engine or stored at the station. The smaller hose can be 1 ¾" or 2". The larger hose can be 2" or 3".

    Foam

    The needed foam eductor on an engine can be 1 ½" or 2 ½" in size. A built in foam proportioning system can be used to replace a foam eductor. Ten gallon of Class B foam liquid is required per engine. Fifteen gallons of spare foam can be carried or stored at the fire station.

    Nozzles

    Two 2 ½" combination shut off nozzles are needed. A 200 gpm or 1 ¾" Task Force tip with 2 ½" adapter is an acceptable option to ISO™ .

    A pair of 1 ½" spray nozzles are also needed. Any 1 ½" threaded fog nozzle is creditable.

    Each engine needs to carry two 2 ½" playpipes with shutoffs. That means a set of 1", 1 1/8" and 1 ¼" stacked or interchangeable smooth bore tips on each.

    The elevated stream device on an aerial has to be a fog tip and must flow 500 gpm fog tip. It requires a 1000 gpm tip for full credit.

    The heavy stream device on an engine can be portable or fixed. It must be equipped with a 500 gpm minimum fog tip. A 1000 gpm fog tip is needed for full credit.

    A large spray nozzle carried on a ladder or service company must be a fog tip that will flow at least 500 gpm.

    A 2 ½" distributor nozzle on an engine can be replaced with a 1 ½" or 2 ½" piercing nozzle or a rotating 2 ½" cellar nozzle.

    Air Packs

    An engine needs four air packs and four spare bottles and ladder or service company needs 6 of each. All must be 30 minute duration or more. A cascade system will not be an acceptable replacement for spare cylinders.

    Salvage Covers

    An engine needs 2 salvage covers a ladder or service company needs 10. All covers must be 12' by 18' foot made of canvas or heavy rip stop plastic. What is not clear is whether a plastic rip stop boat cover or similar tarp will be credited. In some departments it has been allowed by ISO™ and in others disallowed.

    Handlights

    Each engine needs to carry 2 and each ladder or service company 4. They need to be 4 volt wet or 6 volt dry with 40,000 candle power.

    Hose Clamps

    ISO™ is looking for a one 2 ½" or 3 inch clamp on every engine. However they commonly accept LDH hose clamp.

    Gates

    One 2 ½" hydrant hose gate is needed for full credit on each engine. A four way valve, water thief or multiple outlet 2 ½" gated wye can also receive full credit.

    One gated wye is needed per engine and it must be 2 ½ by two 1 ½". A water thief, a 3 way 1 ½" wye or any wye or manifold with adapters to connect 2 ½" and 1 ½" lines is also creditable.

    Radios

    One fixed and one portable is required on all engines and trucks.

    Floodlights

    Three 500 watt or larger portable floodlights must be carried on a service or truck company. Fixed mounted floods, pole lights or light masts will not be credited. Tripod lights or removable heads on fixed pole lights are fully creditable.

    Smoke Ejector

    Every ladder and service company needs a smoke ejector. A positive pressure ventilation fan will an be acceptable substitute.

    Saws

    The intent of the schedule is a ladder or service company should carry a rotary fire department saw like a K-12 or similar. However a chain saw with carbide tip cutting blades will be credited. ISO™ has allowed full credit for recip saws and electric circular saws as well.

    Generators

    Every ladder or service company needs a 2500 watt or larger electrical generation device (inverter, fixed or portable gas or diesel generator, PTO or hydraulic generator).

    Hose Roller

    One hose hoist is needed on each ladder or service company. A hose roller or equipment hoist is also creditable.

    Pike Poles

    Each ladder and service company should carry six pike poles. The lengths should be two each 6', 8' and 12'. Acceptable substitutions include plaster hooks, almost any style hook and even rubbish and trash hooks.

    Ground Ladders

    An engine is suppose to carry a 12' or 14' roof ladder. A 16' is also creditable. In addition to the roof ladder a 24' extension or 28', 30' or 35' will also offer full credit.

    A ladder or service company needs to carry one long ladder for each 35' or taller building in the community and every 3500 gpm or higher property up to the 5 ladder compliment. ISO™ does not follow NFPA 1901 on ground ladders for ladder and service companies. They mirror the robust NFPA ladder standard of 1979.

    Each service or ladder company must carry:

    Required Substitutions

    a 10' folding, None
    a 14 foot extension or combination, 16' 2 fly.

    Each ladder or service company must carry a portion of the following a well:

    Required Substitutions

    a 28 foot extension ladder, 30' 2 or 3 fly
    a 35 foot extension ladder 35' or 40' 2 or 3 fly
    a 40 foot extension ladder. 40', 45', or 50' 2 or 3 fly
    a 16 foot roof ladder, 18' roof
    a 20 foot roof ladder, None

    Testing

    Hose, pumps and aerial devices need to be tested yearly per NFPA standards.

    Aerial Devices

    A creditable aerial device or elevated stream is a minimum of 50' in length. The device (aerial ladder, telescopic elevated platform or articulated platform) needs to reach the roof of any building in the community taking into consideration set backs or be 100 feet in length, whatever is less.


    THEN also in the appendix demonstrate the differences between ISO and NFPA:

    Example:

    Chapter 3 PUMPER FIRE APPARATUS

    3-2 Fire Pump

    Appendix would read:

    For full ISO credit a minimum of a1000 gpm pump is needed.


    3-5 Hose Storage

    Appendix would read:

    For full ISO credit third preconnected line or a booster reel is needed.

    For full ISO hydrant credit room for 1000 feet of 5 inch hose and 400 feet of 2, 2 ½ or 3 inch hose is needed.


    3-7.1 Ground ladders

    Appendix would read:

    For full ISO credit only two ladders are needed the ladders a 24, 28, 30 or 35 foot extension and one 12, 14 or 16 foot roof ladder need to be carried.


    3-8.1 Fire Hose and Nozzles

    Appendix would read:

    For full ISO credit add one additional 200 gpm spray and one playpipe with shut off nozzle to the list.


    3-8.2 Miscellaneous Equipment

    Appendix would read:

    For full ISO credit add one hose jacket or a spare length of 2 ½" hose and a hose clamp, one cellar or distributor nozzle or piercing nozzle, one portable or fixed master stream rated at 1000 gpm minimum with 1000 gpm fog tip, one foam eductor or built in foam system, one hose clamp, one 2 ½ inch gate valve, one 2 ½ inch by two 2 ½" gated wye, a fixed and a portable radio, portable handlights need a minimum of a 40,000 candle power rating, and 10 gallons of Class B foam need to be carried.

    Note A pumper can be counted a ladder/service company or as a pumper and one half of a ladder/service company. The community need for a ladder/service company and the way the apparatus is equipped determines total credit.

    Add at least 163 points from the following list for half ladder/service company credit for you pumper or all the listed items for full service company credit:

    Equipment Needed Total Points
    Large spray nozzle (500-gpm minimum) 1 16
    SCBA 30-minute minimum 6 96
    Extra cylinders (carried) 6 24
    Salvage covers (12' x 18') 10 20
    Electric generator (2,500-watt) 1 25
    Floodlight (500-watt) 3 12
    Smoke ejector 1 20
    Oxyacetylene cutting unit 1 20
    Power saw 1 20
    Electric hand light (4V wet, 6V dry) 4 8
    Hose roller (equip. hoist) 1 4
    Pike pole (plaster hook):
    6' 2 4
    8' 2 4
    12' 2 4
    Radio:
    Mounted 1 32
    Portable 1 16
    Ladder:
    10' collapsible 1 4
    14' extension 1 5

    In addition to the above you'll need half the ladder list for maximum half service company credit or the entire list for full service company credit

    Equipment Needed Total Points
    Ladders:
    16' roof 1 20
    20' roof 1 20
    28' extension 1 20
    35' extension 1 20
    40' extension 1 20

    Note community may not actually need all the ladders per ISO but for maximum credit equip accordingly.


    Chapter 6 Aerial Fire Apparatus

    6-2 Aerial device

    Appendix would read:

    For maximum ISO credit specify a 100 foot device.


    6-3 Fire Pump

    Appendix would read:

    For full ISO credit specify a 1000 gpm pump minimum.


    6-4 Water tank

    Appendix would read:

    For full ISO credit specify a 500 gallon tank minimum.


    6-6 Hose Storage

    Appendix would read:

    For full ISO credit specify a hose bed volume of 1200 feet of 2 ½ inch hose minimum and 1000 feet of 5 inch hose and 400 feet of 2, 2 ½ or 3 inch hose for full hydrant credit.

    For full ISO credit third preconnected line or a booster reel is needed.


    6-7 Ground Ladders

    Appendix would read:

    For maximun ISO credit three extension ladders are needed at least one needs to be 35 feet long. A 14 foot combination ladder is also needed. The community may not need all the ground ladders to ISO rules but in time it my.


    6-8 Minor Equipment

    For full ISO credit add two pike poles, two air packs, two spare bottles, portable hand lights need a minimum of a 40,000 candle power rating, three 500 watt minimum, portable floodlights, a 2500 watt generator minimum, a fixed or portable ladder pipe, a 500 gpm fog tip, a smoke ejector, an oxyacetylene cutting unit or a hydraulic (hydraulic, electric or air powered extrication cutter and power unit), power saw, a hose hoist and a fixed and portable radio.


    Chapter 7

    Quint Fire Apparatus

    Appendix would read:

    Note A quint can be counted a ladder/service company or as a pumper and one half of a ladder/service company. The community need for a ladder/service company and the way the apparatus is equipped determines total credit.


    7-4 Water Tank

    Appendix would read:

    If you want full pumper credit with the quint you'll need the following.

    For full ISO credit specify a 500 gallon tank minimum.


    7-6 Hose storage

    Appendix would read:

    If you want full pumper credit with the quint you'll need the following.

    For full ISO credit third preconnected line or a booster reel is needed.

    For full ISO hydrant credit room for 1000 feet of 5 inch hose and 400 feet of 2, 2 ½ or 3 inch hose is needed.


    7-7.1 Ground Ladders

    Appendix would read:

    If you want full ladder/service company credit with the quint you'll need the following.

    For full ISO credit specify two additional extension ladders, one additional roof ladder and a combination ladder.

    7-8 Minor Equipment

    Appendix would read:

    If you want full pumper credit with the quint you'll need the following.

    For full ISO credit add one additional 200 gpm spray and one playpipe with shut off nozzle, one hose jacket or a spare length of 2 ½" hose and a hose clamp, one cellar or distributor nozzle or piercing nozzle, a 1000 gpm fog tip on the aerial waterway, one foam eductor or built in foam system, one hose clamp, one 2 ½ inch gate valve, a total of our spare breathing air bottles, one 2 ½ inch by two 2 ½" gated wye, a fixed and a portable radio, portable handlights need a minimum of a 40,000 candle power rating, and 10 gallons of Class B foam need to be carried.

    Plus at least 163 points from the following list for half ladder/service company credit:


    Equipment Needed Total Points
    Large spray nozzle (500-gpm minimum) 1 16
    SCBA 30-minute minimum 6 96
    Extra cylinders (carried) 6 24
    Salvage covers (12' x 18') 10 20
    Electric generator (2,500-watt) 1 25
    Floodlight (500-watt) 3 12
    Smoke ejector 1 20
    Oxyacetylene cutting unit 1 20
    Power saw 1 20
    Electric hand light (4V wet, 6V dry) 4 8
    Hose roller (equip. hoist) 1 4
    Pike pole (plaster hook):
    6' 2 4
    8' 2 4
    12' 2 4
    Radio:
    Mounted 1 32
    Portable 1 16
    Ladder:
    10' collapsible 1 4
    14' extension 1 5

    For full ISO credit add six pike poles, one air pack, tone spare breathing air bottle, one portable hand lights need a minimum of a 40,000 candle power rating, two 500 watt minimum portable floodlights, a 2500 watt generator minimum, a smoke ejector, a power saw, and a hose hoist.

    If you want full ladder/service company credit with the quint you'll need the following.

    For full ISO credit add five pike poles, two air packs, two spare bottles, two portable hand lights need a minimum of a 40,000 candle power rating, three 500 watt minimum portable floodlights, a 2500 watt generator minimum, a 500 gpm fog tip, a smoke ejector, an oxyacetylene cutting unit or a hydraulic (hydraulic, electric or air powered extrication cutter and power unit), and power saw.




    [This message has been edited by LHS* (edited 01-14-2001).]

  11. #11
    FIRE549
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    LHS - Question: To receive the additional credit (33-75%) for hydrant spacing all apparatus (pumpers or engines) need to carry 5" hose as supply?

    Thanks for the Class 3 info also.

  12. #12
    Jake295885
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Thumbs down

    LHS,

    I just don't know where to begin with your Friday night post, Were you drinking? Where do you get your information?

    Richmond has had large diameter hose since 1984, Defibs since we began EMS runs in 1990 and had 1 extrication piece since World War II. In addition all truck cos. carried a hurst tool. The "oldest fleet" in any city was on a systematic 18 year replacement cycle.

    You are correct about losing 50 men. we lost em under the new Quint plan along with 6 truck companies. I take umbrage at the way you portray my dept. but I must assume your being misled by someone. Could it be a suspender wearing middle aged man who built a large castle in the sky and had someone else move into it? Your post was full of incorrect value judgements.

    Incidentally, the "oldest" truck co.s could actually turn into narrow streets, and get down alleys. That was due to the fact that they were senior tractor drawn aerial ladders.

    I invite you to come and ride with me sometime and I will show you the smoke and mirrors of Quints.

  13. #13
    LHS*
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Yes 5 inch hose will allow you to get the additional credit.

    Richmond. You spec'd your own rigs, turneddown all wheel steering, wanted straight chassis, But ISO wise you'll do better owning them. 18 years is way to long for a big city at least you're on 15 now. Their are TDA quints that could have worked too. Unless one guy spec'd your rigs, I'd say your issues are a tea meffort.

  14. #14
    FIRE549
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    LHS - What is the web address to down load your ISO site?

    Thanks

  15. #15
    RS-1Alum
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Thumbs down

    Better off with quints?
    LHS,
    Ask the other troops besides Jake what they think of quints and most of them will tell you that they are not as efficient of a firefighting force as they were. Just because something has a stick on it should'nt make it a more ISO worthy piece. It takes people to perform true fireground support activities and Richmond now has less of them. Sure everyone should know everybody else's job, but the everyday honing of those skills suffers, especially when your listening going down the road trying to determine if you are an engine or truck on the fly. Neighborhoods suffer also.When there are multiple fires in far outlying areas of the city, it takes longer to move transfer companies into those districts. Why?
    Before, some houses had 2 COMPANIES stationed together. Now, the majority of their houses have just one unit in them and bigger chunks of neighborhoods go unprotected for longer periods of time.They might be great for smaller, one ladder truck towns and then hopefully only used to pump their own elevated stream.

  16. #16
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    Anyone have a list of what ISO is looking for when they look at hydrants?
    What needs to be shown to them on paper? Thanks Ed

  17. #17
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    Regular testing and measuring of GPM at different pressures. For us, they took the water department's records.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  18. #18
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    Our water department has no records, looking for a document that shows them what needs to be done to get maximum ISO points. Or to NFPA specfications. Thanks Ed

  19. #19
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    I believe they are also looking for a certain minimum flow rate. There are a couple of web sites that list many of the requirements as well. Also you can contact the ISO and they will give you the information.

  20. #20
    MembersZone Subscriber

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    Quote Originally Posted by Poochy View Post
    Our water department has no records, looking for a document that shows them what needs to be done to get maximum ISO points. Or to NFPA specfications. Thanks Ed
    First, go to ISO's website, find a number, call and request a copy of the FSRS (Fire Supression Rating Schedule). You can get a copy for your FD for free. Your chief may have to make the request, though.

    Second, go to ISOSlayer.com and download Larry Stevens' book. Very good info on all aspects of the ISO rating (including hydrants and water supply).

    Those two should get you exactly what you need.

  21. #21
    MembersZone Subscriber

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    Only one level 1 rating in our state as I know of and that's Greensboro Fire Department. From my understanding they have an overkill amount of departments for their area as well as an extra lot of pencil pushers to make sure they keep this rating. Ratings in NC however are now performed by the Department of Insurance not ISO, however, the rating numbers are the same but with different criteria for each. Our department is currently a 4.

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