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  1. #1
    THE NCFD
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Talking What size preconnects do you prefer?

    I bring this up because of the previous subject of number and size of preconnects on rigs. I am asking now what size do you prefer to fight a fire with. We personnaly utilize 1.75" on all of our rigs. All of the departments in this area use 1.75" with the exception of one and they use 1" booster line to fight structure fires.
    YES that is right... booster line...
    What is your favorite and what is your opinion on the sizes.

    ------------------
    Grant Mishoe
    Engineer, Station #4
    North Charleston F.D.
    THENCFD Online!

  2. #2
    15hoseman
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    I believe that 1" booster line is pretty much the standard in Great Britain. I had also heard a rumor that that grand old city of the south, Charleston, S.C. still used them, is that the department you were referring to?

    My department, the District of Columbia Fire Department, uses 1 1/2" lines almost exclusively. we have 100', 200', and 400' (+/- 50') preconnect. We use an Akron constant flow 125 gpm @ 100 psi nozzle, pumped at 30 psi per 100'. I believe this actually gets us around 115 gpm. I believe that this has been effective for us because the vast majority of our fire can be put out one room at a time. The department goes to a fair bit of fire and usually puts them out pretty quickly.

    I think with the smaller line, we have chosen a speed over volume method. I can't remember how fast a fuel limited fire doubles in size, but say it's once every 30 seconds. If that's the case, my 115 gpm now is worth more than your 200 gpm half a minute later. If the whole room is involved, the NFA says that 57.5 gallons from my 115 gpm line can handle up to an 18.5' x 18.5' room. That's a pretty big room for most buildings. If the back up company gets there before i put it out, we can handle twice that.

    So this department that uses 1" probably flows about 60 gpm. That 60 gpm is about as effective as my handline is, if they can get it in service 30 seconds faster. But they can only handle up to 12x15' room - kinda iffy if you ask me. But it's probably not too much of a problem for them to get two lines in so they can handle a 24'x15' room.

    I can't say either way.

    I can say that, should someone want to sue them, for a death perhaps, all of the literature on american firefighting says at least 1.5" at least 95 gpm. Some say at least 1.75" and 150 gpm. Who know?

    BTW: has that city burned down yet?

  3. #3
    THE NCFD
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Talking

    Yes the City of Charleston is who I was refering to. They are an excellent department!! They have achieved and I.S.O. Class 1 rating. They also have 2 booster lines per truck and are very aggressive. This is not to say that the other departments are not as aggressive, however I feel much better knowing that I have a larger preconnect, especially when there is hardly anymore effdort in carrying the line. I am not knocking these fellows in Charleston. They are some of the best around, especially in the Penisula. No the City has not burned down yet... although they have had the opportunity a time or two or three or four in the past few years.

  4. #4
    SFD-129-3
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Primarily 1.75" x 200' preconnects with tft breakaway tips. Also the standard 200' 2.5", variable stream on the engine, straight bore on the quint. Also a 200' 2" straight bore on the quint.

  5. #5
    Raptor557
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    two 1.5" pre-connect crosslays (200ft.) and 2.5" pre-connect (250ft.) out of the hose bed.

  6. #6
    FyredUp
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    200'-1" forestry hose with a Scotty foam system attached

    100'-1 3/4" trash line 200gpm at 75 psi nozzle

    2-200'-2" lines with 200 at 75 psi break-a-part nozzles with a 1 1/4" smoothbore slug tip

    1-300'-2" with the same nozzle as above

    200'-3" connected to a Stinger with stacked tips

    1-Dead lay bed of 300'-3" with a wye and 100'-2" with the above nozzle

    Our guys like this set-up,

    FyredUp

  7. #7
    SFDE12
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    We run with two (2) 1.75 inch preconnects (one is 200FT, the other 250FT). Most of our newwer rigs also have a 200FT preconnected 2.5 inch, all run with TFT nozzles.

  8. #8
    N34BLACKADDER
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    first out pump is 200' 1 1/2 booster, 150' 1 3/4" with a smoothbore preconnect and 150' 2" preconnect in the crosslays, 2 200' 1 3/4" with TFT preconnect and 200" 2 1/2" with smoothbore off the back. 2nd pump is the same w/o booster and 2 1/2" is preconnect with another 200" in the bed. Quint is 200' 1 3/4" TFT, 2 200' 1 3/4" with smoothbore and 200' 2 1/2" with smoothbore, all preconnect in crosslays. What comes off the truck depends on situation. 2" for car fire, and 1 3/4" or 2 1/2" for structure.

    [This message has been edited by N34BLACKADDER (edited 01-23-2001).]

  9. #9
    EUitts
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    As a generalization without getting into the math of fire flows, etc.:
    Big Fire, Big Line (2.5")
    Small Fire, Small Line (1.75")

    Everyone has brought up some very valid points here. I think the key is to carry a varied assortment of hose sizes, nozzles, foam systems, etc. so that you can adapt to whatever situation you might come up against, considering fire hazards, staffing, etc. and then know how to recognize what is the best choice for a particular situation. As creatures of habit, I think sometimes we get ourselves into certain mindsets such as always pulling the 1.75" when we really should be pulling the 2.5" right from the start.

  10. #10
    ME93
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Cool

    On my engine we use:
    1-1 3/4 bumper line 150'
    2-1 3/4 crosslays 200' one with TFT and other with smooth bore
    1-2" blitz line 200'
    1-yard lay 200' of 2" with a gated wye with one preconnect 1 3/4 150'

    These are all preconnected.

    ------------------
    Fishers Fire Dept.
    FF/Medic
    Local 416

    [This message has been edited by ME93 (edited 01-24-2001).]

  11. #11
    dmstreet
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    We have two different makes/vintages of pumper(county government at its best), carrying slightly different hose loads. The first-line piece has all rear-loaded lines, with two 1.75" primary attack lines(200 ft each), and one 2.5" line(150 ft) with a gated wye which is changed out for a smooth bore when needed. Additionally, we have a 50-ft section of 1.75" as a bumper line, and the usual 1" booster line(150 ft.) On the second piece, we have two 1.75" crosslays(200 ft each), a rear-loaded 2.5" line(200ft.) with a gated wye like the first-line engine, and a right-side running board tray loaded with 100ft of 1.75".

    Capt. Don Street
    Maryland City VFD (Anne Arundel Co. 27)
    Laurel, MD

    [This message has been edited by dmstreet (edited 01-24-2001).]

  12. #12
    Neptune 33
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    My Departments First Due Engine has:
    4 - 1 3/4 Crosslays, 400' Each 1 on Chauffers side, 3 on officers

    1 - 1 3/4 preconnect in front bumper (400')

    3 - 2 1/2 crosslays 1 200' 2 400'

    1500' 5"

    1750 pump, 1250 tank

    Our Second Due Engine (Supply) but can use be used as attack

    2 - 1 3/4 crosslays 400' 1 on either side
    1 - 2 1/2 Crosslay 200' officers side
    1 - 1" Booster
    200' 3" Supply
    2100' 5" supply
    200' 2 1/2 for tanker fills

    1000gpm 1000tank

    You may say that's a lot of preconnects on the first due, but we can operate self sufficent at a structure fire. This is due to a lack of manpower from our mutual aid, they have at least a 8 minute response times at some times.

  13. #13
    Buck
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    ///I can't remember how fast a fuel limited fire doubles in size, but say it's once every 30 seconds.///

    Show me a creditable source that will put that in writing.

    ///So this department that uses 1" probably flows about 60 gpm.///

    How about 150 gpm

    ///What size of preconnect do I prefer?///

    The smallest line that will effectively handle the fire at hand.

    /// I feel much better knowing that I have a larger preconnect, especially when there is hardly anymore effdort in carrying the line. ///

    Say what? You got to be kidding!

    Buck

  14. #14
    THE NCFD
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Question

    ///I can't remember how fast a fuel limited fire doubles in size, but say it's once every 30 seconds.///

    Show me a creditable source that will put that in writing.

    **I think he was using that as an example. You can't determine how fast a room is going to burn because you do not know a fire load. I think he was using this figure as a "for instance" situation.

    ///So this department that uses 1" probably flows about 60 gpm.///

    How about 150 gpm

    **PLEASE show me a nozzle, automatic or otherwise that will flow 150 gpm! Auto nozzles on 1" at best will flow 125gpm with HUGE Friction loss. At 125gpm flowing through 150' of 1" booster your friction loss is over 350PSI!!!

    ///What size of preconnect do I prefer?///

    The smallest line that will effectively handle the fire at hand.

    **The original question was: "what size do you prefer to fight a fire with?" Now this is slightly broad in nature, but overall I think the major mindset was what size lines do you prefer to fight a structure fire with. Being that most rigs carry a booster (1"), a few larger pre-connects (1.5" to 1.75") and big attack lines (2.5" to 3.0") I think it would be safe to say that the smallest line you could use would be the booster. Being that this is mainly used for trash fires and the occasional small car fire, why would you even explore the idea of using this line for anything other than these options. EXAMPLE: Lets say you pull up on a fire in the kitchen of a house. You got good smoke production. You know that this fire may get larger if you do not get on top of it. WHY would you pull the booster line off, even if you had the chance of putting it out, you may need bigger water. So why not go with the LARGER preconnect and be done with it. If you have someone on the knob that knows how to work the line, your water damage will be minimal compared to flowing water through the booster until the fire EVENTUALLY goes out or it burns to you. Then you get into the world of property conservation. The quicker the fire goes out the less damage to the rest of the residence. There are many different factors to look at. One thing is FOR SURE... and that is it is better to have a larger preconnect and not need it than get your butt in a bind with a booster and need more water. I think that a majority of the Firefighting community will agree.


    /// I feel much better knowing that I have a larger preconnect, especially when there is hardly anymore effort in carrying the line. ///

    Say what? You got to be kidding!

    **I think this one was answered in detail above. However let me clarify myself. I was speaking of course with the difference between your booster compared to your 1.5" and 1.75" preconnects. Yes booster line is light and manuverable and 1.5" and 1.75" is a little heavier, but for the protection the larger preconnects offer, the weight and manuverability differences, in my mind, are minimal.

    Now I think this matter has been thoroughly disected.... lets go onto another topic.

    Hey Buck, I got a question for you. Do you work or volunteer for a fire department and if so what kind of preconnects do you use? Now if you are with the Magnolia, Texas FD I am wondering what kind of hose they have on those commercial chassis'.



    ------------------
    Grant Mishoe
    Engineer, Station #4
    North Charleston F.D.
    THENCFD Online!

  15. #15
    Buck
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    ///You can't determine how fast a room is going to burn because you do not know a fire load. ///

    Exactly!

    ///1" at best will flow 125gpm with HUGE friction loss.///

    use 150' of 1.75" with 40' of 1" as a stinger and you will not have much friction loss. As for Charleston FD I do not know what they use. All I was saying is that don't limit yourself on how much water you think will come out of a 1" line.

    /// "what size do you prefer to fight a fire with?" Now this is slightly broad in nature, but overall I think the major mindset was what size lines do you prefer to fight a structure fire with.///

    Like I said, the smallest line that will effectively handle the fire at hand. If it requires a 2.5", I like to use the 2.5". If it requires a 1.5" or 1.75" I like that size.

    I see too many departments that use 1.75" and 2" and never take their nozzle off of the 95 or 125 gpm setting. That doesn't make any sense, if that is all the water you want then use a 1.5" or a 1" stinger.

    ///the smallest line you could use would be the booster. Being that this is mainly used for trash fires and the occasional small car fire, why would you even explore the idea of using this line for anything other than these options.///

    If it is set up to do higher flows it can be used very effectively and a whole lot more maneuverable. But with your mind set being that it will only do 60 gpm at best I have to ask, Why do you use a 1" on the occasional small car fire? NFPA requires you to flow at least 100 gpm.

    ///why would you even explore the idea of using this line ///

    Why does majority of the fire service stay in the same old box of thinking? Try exploring new ideas and new innovations.

    /// you may need bigger water. So why not go with the LARGER preconnect and be done with it.///

    Why not pull a 2.5" if you think you might need more water? It's called experience, you pull a 1.75" because at the time your judgement says that is all of the water I need to put out that fire.

    /// Then you get into the world of property conservation. ///

    Do you use CAF on house fires? Talk about property conservation.

    ///One thing is FOR SURE... and that is it is better to have a larger preconnect and not need it than get your butt in a bind ///

    Why don't you use 2" hose then? It is not much harder to maneuver than a 1.75" and will flow a whole lot more water.

    ///Now I think this matter has been thoroughly disected.... lets go onto another topic.///

    Oh boy,Let's change the subject

    ///Do you work or volunteer for a fire department///

    I proudly volunteer my time.
    What does that have to do with this subject?

    ///and if so what kind of preconnects do you use?///

    Mainly 1.75" and 2.5"

    ///Now if you are with the Magnolia, Texas FD ///

    That is what it says below my name.

    /// I am wondering what kind of hose they have on those commercial chassis'.///

    Commercial chassis'- the only commercials we have are six 3000 gal FL/E-ONE tankers and they have 600' - 1.75" / 200' - 1" / 400' - 3" / 2000' - 5"

    But if you really know so much about my fire department you would have asked about our pumpers instead..


    Buck

  16. #16
    John_Ford
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    My preference is 2" with a Smoothbore or a low pressure 200/75*. I can live with a 150/75* or a 15/16" smoothbore on a 1.75". For a trash line, I like a good old APN (that's a navy ifn ya don't know) on a 100/150' of 1.5". 2.5" with a 1 1/4" tip. Reason for the APN is all those applicator's.

    I know the guy's in Charleston. I call Rusty Thomas a friend. BUT I disagree with using 1" Booster line on an occupied structure. My 2 Cents. Flame on.

    [This message has been edited by John_Ford (edited 01-25-2001).]

  17. #17
    ffeng
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Buck,
    You and LHS keep questioning the fire growth rates that are brought up in the Forums. In fact, I think LHS called them "urban myths." And you ask for a credible source.

    There are plenty of credible sources, but are you willing to learn something, or are you going to just keep playing games?

    Go to NFPA 72, Appendix B. NFPA 72 is the National Fire Alarm Code. It allows for either the perscriptive spacing of fire detection systems or the engineering design of such systems. The guidelines for engineering design are found in Appendix B. Go to Figure B-2.3.2.3.1, Power law heat release rates. It has been well established that ordinary combustibles grow according to a power law of time^2 and those fires fit into 4 main types: ultrafast, fast, medium, slow. If you read the graph, you will see that the fire size doubling times are 16 seconds for ultrafast, 30 seconds for fast, 60 seconds for medium and 120 seconds for slow.
    NFPA 72 has a long history and is adopted by jurisdictions all over the US and even abroad. The data in NFPA 72 are all based on decades of real fire growth data. If 72 isn't good enough, go to the NIST web site and access .pdf files for many of the reports that have all the background data included in 72. That's how fires grow and it is well established.
    But there are fires that are even faster. Storage or industrial fires can grow based on a power law of time^3 on up to time^9. Time^9 - that's a fire that when you double the time, the fire grows 9X. Go from 20 to 40 seconds for these fires, and the fire grows 9x. These are fires that can out run a standard wet pipe sprinkler system - fires grow faster than sprinklers can open. Fires that you may have to use massive deluge systems to stop.

    Do you want some more real data on fire growth? Go to Table B-2.3.2.3.1 (e). Here's some data on typical furniture. You'll see a number called Tg, that's the time it takes for that fire to get to 1MW. 1 MW is the accepted value for flashover. What are some of the Tg values - 35, 40, 50 seconds. One piece of furniture can create enough fire to get to flashover - in 40-50 seconds. How fast do you think that fire is doubling?
    Or go to Table B-2.3.2.3.1(a). There's some Tg value for warehouse materials - how about polyethylene insulation board - 8 seconds to 1 MW.

    More? Call Viking Sprinkler or Central or any sprinkler manufacturer and start getting some warehouse sprinkler approval fire tests. You'll see fires that grow so fast that a 286 degree F sprinkler in a 30 - 35 ft. warehouse activates in 29 seconds from ignition. 29 seconds from ignition, how fast do you think that fire is doubling.

    How do you think those guys got caught in Worcester? When that fire hit the right combo on fuel and O2, it took off, and was described, that fire changed in mere seconds. Did you see the unburned vaporized fuel being released above the building, hitting air and igniting into a huge fireball. How do you think all that fuel got vaporized? Frank Brannigan's column this one or one back had some myths - one of those - the 15 minutes to flashover myth. Fires grow a lot faster than that.

    Or look on the Firehouse homepage just about everyday - see fully involved structures? How did they get like that? Fully involved on arrival of the FD. Fire goes from ignition to the size of a fully involved house fire before the FD arrives. How do you think that happens?

    I read these posts from you and LHS responding to water supply issues and you respond with all this data on how many 4" supply lines it takes to flow ....., and these mathematical calculations on tanker shuttle water supply. But someone mentions a value for the time for fire growth and you respond with the "urban myth" comments and the like. How about practicing what you preach? If you dispute the values given, where's yours???

    15Hoseman has a pretty perceptive view on fire growth. Ordinary combustible fires can be put out by a single sprinkler flowing 20 gpm. Heavy duty storage fire can be put out by a couple to three storage sprinklers flowing 75-125 gpm. They can do it because they catch the fire early, because they catch it 30-40-50 seconds in. If you catch the fire quick, you can get with a 1 1/2".

    Now back to the original question, my preferred pre-connect is a 2". Same manpower as 1 1/2or 1 3/4 for interior attack, respectable defensive flows with less manpower than a 2 1/2" and a single line so you never pick the wrong line. A major plus for depts or FFs that don't see a lot of fire and have less experience to make a judgment call from or if you don't have the short response times of a dense urban area.

  18. #18
    THE NCFD
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    ///the smallest line you could use would be the booster. Being that this is mainly used for trash fires and the occasional small car fire, why would you even explore the idea of using this line for anything other than these options.///

    If it is set up to do higher flows it can be used very effectively and a whole lot more maneuverable. But with your mind set being that it will only do 60 gpm at best I have to ask, Why do you use a 1" on the occasional small car fire? NFPA requires you to flow at least 100 gpm.

    **CLARIFICATION TIME: My department does not use 1" on car fires. I was merely stating that I have seen it mainly used on trash fires and small fire in cars. Also since you want to use NFPA as a source of information... go to the IFSTA 4th Edition Essentials Manual and turn to page 525. There it will give you information on hoseline selection. It clearly states that booster is to be used outside and the use of booster line may not only delay extinguishment but may be of insufficient volume to protect firefighters from advancing flame fronts.

    ///why would you even explore the idea of using this line ///

    Why does majority of the fire service stay in the same old box of thinking? Try exploring new ideas and new innovations.

    What new idea have you come up with man! The idea of becoming a statistic. What new idea have you come up with? The use of smaller diameter hoselines?!?! I think that this has been going on for a while. This is the very reason 1.75" was developed. To get a larger volume of water with the nearly the same weight of the 1.5".

    /// you may need bigger water. So why not go with the LARGER preconnect and be done with it.///

    Why not pull a 2.5" if you think you might need more water? It's called experience, you pull a 1.75" because at the time your judgement says that is all of the water I need to put out that fire.

    **My thoughts exactley. I do hope that your "experience" has taught you that one or two well placed 1.75" will do as much if not more damage to a fire than hauling out one 2.5" Every fire is different. You can always scale down on the flow if you dont need it. But when you do find yourself in a bind and you dont have the water then you got a problem.

    /// Then you get into the world of property conservation. ///

    Do you use CAF on house fires? Talk about property conservation.

    **Do you use CAF? It is a good concept, however not everyone has it. I have used it in live burns as well as certain types of wetting agents. However whenyou get into larger departments that have large fleets and run a large number of fires... the cost effectivness of outfitting your rigs with CAFS doesnt mesh with the people who decide the budget. Water is readily available and cheap.

    ///One thing is FOR SURE... and that is it is better to have a larger preconnect and not need it than get your butt in a bind ///

    Why don't you use 2" hose then? It is not much harder to maneuver than a 1.75" and will flow a whole lot more water.

    **Why dont you just go up to a 2.5"?!? I mean it would be not that much harder to maneuver and will flow a whole lot more water! You can compare this stuff all night long... fact of the matter is that larger preconnects work. You do get to a point that you need to think of the wear and tear on your men. In a city department, you may have 3 to 4 men on the first due. You grab 1 or 2 1.5" or 1.75" and go to town. Experience should dictate whether or not you would need to go larger. Generally response time is quicker and you will be able to attack the fire within minutes of ignition. NOW THIS IS NOT TRUE IN ALL CASES! Note I said generally.
    Now a majority of volunteer departments cannot get to a fire as quick. They may have to use a larger line or hit the fire more aggressivley. NOW THIS IS NOT TRUE IN ALL CASES OR DEPARTMENTS!!! Note I said a "Majority of". In either case the fire is most of the time beyond the fire flow capabilities of smaller preconnects! Think about it....

    ///Now I think this matter has been thoroughly disected.... lets go onto another topic.///

    Oh boy,Let's change the subject

    **Why not? This one has been answered. Remember the original question? What kind of preconnects do you prefer?

    ///Do you work or volunteer for a fire department///

    I proudly volunteer my time.
    What does that have to do with this subject?

    **Nothing really, other than what I said above. This generally equals out to a manpower situation. I was just asking what you status you were... dont be offended dude.. sheeeeesh!

    ///and if so what kind of preconnects do you use?///

    Mainly 1.75" and 2.5"

    ///Now if you are with the Magnolia, Texas FD ///

    That is what it says below my name.

    ** Being that Magnolia is just north of Houston, I was wanting to clarify where you worked or volunteered your time.

    /// I am wondering what kind of hose they have on those commercial chassis'.///

    Commercial chassis'- the only commercials we have are six 3000 gal FL/E-ONE tankers and they have 600' - 1.75" / 200' - 1" / 400' - 3" / 2000' - 5"

    But if you really know so much about my fire department you would have asked about our pumpers instead...

    **What is there to know about your fire department. I simply asked what kind of hose you have on your commercial chassis'. I mean the picture I have shows two commercial cab, I am assuming that they are pumpers, and a really nice looking brush truck. Other than that there is NO INFORMATION on your department! You can go to my department by clicking the link below my name. Have a good day!


    ------------------
    Grant Mishoe
    Engineer, Station #4
    North Charleston F.D.
    THENCFD Online!

  19. #19
    troll911
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Our dept. uses 2-1.75" (150' & 200') crosslays for most everything. We also have 2-200' 2.5' preconnects handy and 100' of either 1.5" or 1.75" on the front bumper for trash/autos. Each truck carries 1200' of 5" for plug connections. No booster lines at all on pumpers. Our brush truck has 200' of 1" booster reel on it along with 200' of 1" forest service preconnect wyed with 200' each site of 5/8" forest service hose. Truck has a 400 gal tank 20 gal tank for each of Class A&B foam. Also has two 25' preconnects of 5/8" hose with bumper nozzles in front (45 degrees).

  20. #20
    res7cue
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    TO EACH HIS OWN !!!!

    The question was asked " What size line do you prefer and why ?

    My dept uses the following on both the wagon and the pumper;
    2- 1.75" x 150' crosslays w/ TFT Autos
    2- 2" x 200' crosslays w/ TFT Autos
    1- 2" x 300' rear pre-con w/ 15/16" smoothbore
    1- 1.5" x 150' crosslay, trashline (FOR SURE)
    1600" - 5" LDH

    We also use a Yamaha load of 300' of 3" for vertical-horizontal applications in conjunction w/ combinationof the 300' of 2"
    and 200' of 2".

    All work extremely well.

    My personal preference is the 300' of 2" w/ the smoothbore. It gives me flexibility in flow and I've been using 2" for 20+ years and just prefer it.

    You just have to know what you and your crews capabilities are and do a proper sizeup when deciding the size/type line.

    Have fun and stay safe!!!

    ------------------

  21. #21
    tillerman14
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    the primary line is 150' 1 1/2

  22. #22
    canman
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    200ft.1 1/2 200ft.2 1/2 in case there's alot of fire and 100ft.1 1/2 for trash fires.

  23. #23
    FFNeal
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Our dept. currently uses 1.75" hand lines on all fire calls from vehicle fires to structure fires. They are much easier to move around inside of a structure and put out a good amount of water with the right auto. nozzle. We do not use booster lines except for "mop up" or a small grass fire, etc. With limited manpower, as it is in my dept., 2.5" lines are to large to move around.

  24. #24
    medic951
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    We have three preconnected lines on each truck. 1) 250ft. 1.75" smoothbore attack line, 2) 250ft. 1.75" fog nozzle attack line, and 3) 250ft. 2.5" smoothbore attack line. Funny that you mention, up until 3 years ago we also used booster line on structures. Reason being it was always easy to roll up and go home. Wow! Things have really changed.

  25. #25
    LHS*
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    ffeng

    Thanks for talking to Buck instead of me. You'll find it more effective to talk to me.

    Sure some fires in certain rare circumstances double or triple in size, but only for a short period of time until they like all interior fires become oxygen limited and rarely are fuel starved like a christmas tree.

    However they do not double every 30 seconds as the question or statement was posed.

    NFPA and others you quote support what I'm saying. If the majority of fires that kill citizens the burns for more than 40 minutes before the FD knows there is a fire.

    How big was the fire to double every 30 seconds at time of ignition? 40minutes allows a doubling at least 80 times.

    1500 sq ft home 8 foot ceilings

    12000 cu ft

    divide that by 2 - 80 times

    Answer? Put 19 zeros behind the decimel point and that is how big it was. You could put 100,000 on the head of a pin.

    In 6.6 minutes the fire is less than 1 cubic foot in size.

    78% of all fire deaths the fires don't double at 30 second intervals. Or if in fact they are it isn't a big deal because the fire is so small when it starts that we've got over 15 minutes before we can see it with the human eye. So maybe we should space our stations further apart to deal with this silliness.

    I don't think so. I'll refer to you math for clarification. Please give a real world example we can see.

    And for the gentleman who said 150 gpm through a booster is impossible, it's been going on for years, the average rig in europe uses a 1500 psi reel.


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