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  1. #21
    FireLt1951
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    I did not really intend to condone what these firefighters did. I acted out of emotion at the consistent attacks on the Detroit Fire Dept as a whole. SgtDave should have read the name tags and written a letter to the commissioner. These individuals would have been taken down on charges and given a suspension or reduction in rank, all he would have to do is testify at the trial board. Members have been disiplined for a lot less. The members of the D.F.D. are a proud and dedicated bunch. To attack an entire dept (1380 F.F.) for the actions of a few is uncalled for. I hope you accept my apologies for letting my emotions get to me. Hey Dog, how you doing buddy, staying low and crawling forward I bet.


  2. #22
    BucksEng91
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Angry

    To Gill -

    No miscommunication here. In FireLt1951's first post, he says, "Hey SgtDave are what department do you work for. i noticed you didn't put it in your profile are you a volly or paid proffessional." I think *you* missed something, Gill, when you read through this forum. My point is this - ultimately, we're talking about dead firefighters. What the H*LL does the old and tired 'paid vs. volunteer' debate have in this forum? Simple and obvious: FireLt1951 is using the word 'vollie' as a perjorative. And, regardless of what you think, I don't believe (and I think a lot of people would back me up on this) that dressing up in your uniform, getting completely faced in public, and screaming insults at women is an acceptable way for ANYBODY to honor dead firefighters. I don't care who you are, what department you come from (really, I couldn't care less that this involved Detroit firefighters - I'm not blaming this on Detroit as a whole), or how a LODD "effects" you (as FireLt1951 says). Do it in private. Disgracing your uniform, your department, and your profession is a slap in the face to heroes who have died in the line of duty. Anyone who thinks that it's somehow OK to act like this *anywhere*, let alone at a memorial service for firefighters, has some serious thinking and soul searching to do.

    ------------------
    J. Black

    The opinions expressed are mine and mine alone and may not reflect those of any organization with which I am associated.

  3. #23
    NFDLT55
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Hey Guys -n- Gals
    I'm not going to say anything about the Detroit Fire Department or any other department because after all, we're all in this job for the same thing. Let me say just this. If ANY of our brothers acted like this
    I would have a problem with it. Up here in CT im sure things like this happen all the time so in no way am I going to pretend or project the image that I or any of our brothers are perfect. But what those firefighters have done was basically made Departments everywhere look bad, but sometimes people get carried away so i just say let it go..Its not worth causing a Paid vs. Volunteer fight, or any fight amongst brothers and sisters, its just not worth it. I must agree they were out of hand but i just think that we should live and forget about what happened, becuase like i said before we're all in this for the same thing.

  4. #24
    Gill
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    To BucksEng91,

    I beg your pardon, but I must disagree once again. I often look at the profiles out of curiosity. Sometimes peoples' profiles give me a better idea of where they are coming from. Did it occur to you that this is what FireLt1951 was doing?

    Secondly, perhaps YOU missed something when you read through the posts. I said what those firemen did was wrong. So even though you come across as if my opinion doesn't matter--I agree with you--what they did was unacceptable. Go back and read my post and you'll see that.

  5. #25
    BucksEng91
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Angry

    Gill -

    No disrepect intended, so I hope none is taken, but I still fail to see what FireLt1951's comments have to do with anything in this forum. Asking someone whether they're paid or vollie when you're a paid guy and have a bone to pick with them can only mean one thing - that you're disparaging volunteers. That has no place here. And I still find it particularly distasteful that it was brought up in the context of a memorial service for LODDs. FireLt1951 goes on to basically tell SgtDave that he's less of a firefighter than guys that work in the "ghetto city" (his words, not mine) of Detroit. Go back and read FireLt1951's original post. The disparagement is clear. Instead of questioning SgtDave's abilities as a firefighter, or attempting to ignite another of those stupid paid vs. volunteer firefights, perhaps we could concentrate instead on the issue at hand - the frankly inexcusable behavior of several firefighters at a memorial service.

    ------------------
    J. Black

    The opinions expressed are mine and mine alone and may not reflect those of any organization with which I am associated.

  6. #26
    Detroit Fire
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Angry

    I have not put my two sense in so here it goes. What can i say that has not already been said I still don't know why Sgt. Dave had to post something like this in the first place weather it is about Detroit or any other city. Second i can't believe a topic like this has got so many responses. I think that other topics are more important than drunk Firefighters anywhere in the country.

  7. #27
    FLAME5
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Exclamation

    WELL I DISAGREE I THINK IT IS GREAT THAT POSTS LIKE THIS ARE MADE. SURE IT MAY MAKE DETROIT F.D. SOUND LIKE ONE OF THOSE JACKASS SHOWS.
    BUT, AND MOST IMPORTANTLY IT SHOULD REMIND EVERYONE THAT WE ARE PROFESSIONALS AND SHOULD ACT LIKE PROFESSIONALS ON AND OFF DUTY. WITH THE WAY THE FIRE SERVICE HAS BEEN LOOKED AT IN THE PAST AND EVEN NOW, I FEEL MORONS LIKE THESE SHOULD BE FIRED.
    BY THE WAY DOESEN'T CIVIL SERVICE LAW MENTION SOMETHING ABOUT DRINKING? I KNOW TEXAS DOES. MABEY THE DEPT. HAS A PROBLEM WITH MANAGEMENT AS WELL?
    HONESTLY I FEEL FIREFIGHTERS SHOULD BE ALCOHOL FREE.
    I KNOW DETROIT CAN DO BETTER.

    JUST MY PERSONAL OPINION.

  8. #28
    DOG 4035
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Cool

    The topic of this is OK... HOW WE ACT IN UNIFORM, should have been the title...But when you single out 1 Department what the hell do you expect. If the Sgt felt that strong about this in the SUMMER. Why did he post this 5 to 6 months later? THE TIME FOR HIM WAS TO ACT THEN AND NOT NOW. REMEMBER WE ARE ALL BROTHERS.....

    ------------------
    STAY SAFE,STAY LOW

  9. #29
    BucksEng91
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    DetroitFire -

    The reason why this has gained so much attention, I think, is the barrage of negative publicity which the Detroit FD has suffered over the last few months. Whether you think that such publicity was deserved or not, the fact is that it's there and it gets people talking.

    While I think that the firefighters in question acted in a manner that disgraced their uniform, department, and profession, I agree that it was probably not necessary or helpful to emphasize their department affiliation. On the other hand, if SgtDave had not identified them, I can imagine that some people may have either 1) challenged him to come up with details about this upsetting story (believing it to be fabrication), or 2) made a disparaging remark, the likes of "must have been some wacker vollies" or "must have been some *sshole paid guys".

    In any case, the people who have posted on here saying, "We're all brothers" are absolutely right (and sisters, too...:-D ). That's why we keep this kind of stuff in the family - if it's not your brother who's going to tell you when you're wrong, who will? It's up to fellow firefighters to maintain standards of decency, pride, and integrity.

    ------------------
    J. Black

    The opinions expressed are mine and mine alone and may not reflect those of any organization with which I am associated.

  10. #30
    DOG 4035
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Cool

    Originally posted by FLAME5:
    I FEEL MORONS LIKE THESE SHOULD BE FIRED.
    MABEY THE DEPT. HAS A PROBLEM WITH MANAGEMENT AS WELL?
    You would have us belive you would take a persons LIVELIHOOD AWAY BECAUSE THEY MADE A MISTAKE...You may friend are way off base...YES THEY WHERE WRONG!!! BUT TO TAKE THERE JOB??? TAKE THERE JOB??? LOL
    STOP THE MADNESS NOW...WE ARE ALL BROTHERS...PLEASE REMEMBER THAT...I WATCH OUT FOR YOU. YOU WATCH OUT FOR ME...


    ------------------
    STAY SAFE,STAY LOW

  11. #31
    comwhite
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    As an outsider, I've enjoyed reading the responses to this thread. It makes me realize, as "Joe Blow", that firefighters are a unique breed. I think all of us could come up with a scenario comprable to the one given. What I find interesting is the reaction to the action. We had a firefighter go on scene intoxicated, telling others he was commanding officer, and they didn't know what they were doing. He was right, he was the highest rank on scene, BUT he invalidated any of his authority by showing up drinking. The other firefighters apoligized to the people standing around, did their jobs, and when they got back to station wrote the incident up. They left the citizen with the impression that not all firefighters behaved that way. I think that's the most important thing to remember. Yes the men in question did leave a 'bad taste', but what did the other firefighters there do to alleviate that impression?

  12. #32
    FFTrainer
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    To keep this thing rolling here, I just want to add my 1 cent (too tired and broke to add both cents.....)

    This is not a Detroit FD issue, hell for that matter it is not even a Fire Service issue. This is a matter of simple human behavior and decency towards your fellow humans and not acting like an A%%HOLE and using alcohol as an excuse. If you're going to act that way when alcohol is added, then my suggestion is stay away from it.

    I agree this issue is compounded by the fact these guys were in uniform and maybe a little more compounded by the fact that DFD is already under scrutiny, but I think we're missing the point here. If DFD wasn't under scrutiny, this would probably been less of an issue, and if these guys were in civies, even less of an issue, but they weren't and we will deal with the bad PR and move on with our jobs of saving lives and property.

    As for using the emotions, "you don't know what these guys were going through..." as justification. You know what, that's the lamest excuse going because we do (at least I do) know what it's like. Don't you think at some point in our lives, we have lost a friend, a family member, etc. Maybe not a LODD, but a death and a tragic loss nonetheless. I don't know about others, but I've been on that job where it was my buddy I was cutting out of his car for the coroner at 3:00 am but you don't see me and my crew whacking back some brews calling some innocent bystander fat and making fun of her. And no, that doesn't make me perfect (and I'm sure someone wants to make that smartass comment). It's just a simple display of respect. We're all in this one together whether it is Firefighters, EMS, Police or civilians, we all bleed the same when hurt and I think some people need to step back and see that as the issue here.

    For those of your offended and hurt by the attack on Detroit, I may agree with you that it was unnecessary, but so was the whole incident and if it hurt your pride, etc think about that woman who was insulted. Do you think her pride is anything too great after that, not to mention her opinion of Firefighters. I doubt she got close enough to read a badge that said 'Detroit' on it so again the specific dept. name is irrelevent. If she was at that same memorial service with the FF's in question, then it was probably for a reason, did anyone stop and think that this may have been the wife, sister, mother, etc of a fallen Brother or Sister?? Guess not, they just felt the need to be arrogant A%%HOLES and amuse themselve at someone else's expense.

    Just a little extra to add.....

    Stay safe out there!


    [This message has been edited by FFTrainer (edited 02-01-2001).]

  13. #33
    FRED
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Gentlemen,

    Although we are firemen and are suposed to be held to a higher standard of behavior, we are all still human. I'm sure all of you have done stupid things before. I know I have.
    Depts are a cross-section of a city, a city the size of Detroit will have its fair share of idiots just like EVERY Dept.

    All Lt1951 wanted to know is where this guy was and what he did. It is only fair to know who this guy who is trashing his Dept. is. (yes, his own guys trashed it themselves, ect.)
    I also agree with 1951 that he should have confronted them then. Have none of you heard what happens here, what is said here, stays here, when you leave here. Posting it here in this forum hasn't helped a thing.

    As for LT1951, good for him for sticking up for his brothers, despite that they might have made some stupid decisions he still has there back. Short of criminal behavior a fireman should always support his brothers.(I don't consider being a A** in public a crime)
    But then again it seems some out there wouldn't know what brotherhood was if it fell out of the sky landed on their face and wiggled! Many guys talk a good game but fail to step up to the plate.

    Just two cents from a fireman.

  14. #34
    BucksEng91
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    FRED -

    I'll start off by saying, as has become my habit...no disrespect intended.

    BUT

    Please don't try to excuse what these guys did at a FIREFIGHTERS' MEMORIAL SERVICE. You say, "...we are all still human. I'm sure all of you have done stupid things before. I know I have..." Granted. Me too. But I doubt that there are many of us who would have put on the display that these Detroit guys did, especially not in uniform, in public, at a memorial for dead heroes. In fact, it's patronizing to even suggest it. Yeah, we are all human...but there are limits. And these guys crossed it, by whatever yardstick you want to measure it by.

    LT1951 didn't just want to know where SgtDave was from, or what he does. Those things are not important or pertinent to the topic. It doesn't water down SgtDave's observations or change what happened if he's a vollie or super trooper paid guy. What LT 1951 was doing, in a barely veiled fashion, was to try to incite another paid vs. volunteer p*ssing match - the kind we've all grown quite sick and tired of.

    I'll agree that it's all too easy to attack the Detroit FD right now, and it's easy to take cheap shots. However, LT1951 is not helping his brothers or showing respect to fallen firefighters by making excuses for these idiots. "Short of criminal behavior a fireman should always support his brothers", you say. Always? How about when they're publicly disgracing your department and your profession. It's one thing to "have each other's back" in a fire. It's quite another to make excuses for boorish, embarrasing and disrespectful behavior that shows firefighters in a bad light to the public. That should never be tolerated. The pride in our profession comes from the fact that we do hold ourselves to a higher standard, and that includes not standing for this kind of sh*t.

    ------------------
    J. Black

    The opinions expressed are mine and mine alone and may not reflect those of any organization with which I am associated.

  15. #35
    detmichfire
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    I'm at the engine house yesterday(detroit)and from word of mouth was told to check out this comment. I can't believe what I read. How small and childish it is taking a cheap shot about our department behind a monitor and keyboard. That didn't bother me to much but to read on and on about our department other then the fact in question did. when you say something about the Detroit fire department you say it to all 1300 of us. for every one of you that gave a cheap shot towards are department I'd put a hefty sum of money down that you'd give your left arm to join are department. This has already been said but I'll say it again, I'm not making any excuses for what those guys said or did , but this comment could be full of crap. How easy it could be for me to rip on any department in the county and get people to believe me. Is this guy jealous he didn't get hired and now has to make this comment months later and after the fact. It should have been dealt with then. And if it is true it should be dealt with accordingly and in department. They shouldn't be hung out to try and fired. With more on the cheap shots, I'll say this again, come down and ride with us for 24hrs and then write your comments about one of the most respected,safest and highly aggressive interior attack fire departments in the world. Thanks for the brothers who stick up for us we know who you are, we appreciate it! One last thing, I probably know the guys that were at the memorial and I can tell you this, they are a great bunch of guys and maybe just maybe(if its true) screwed up.And to the guy that wanted to kick there .ss, I'm sure if you go down this year and mention this forum to one of the guys, I'm pretty sure this can be settled like men not like some girly boy hiding behind his keyboard.

    stay safe brothers-and god bless, I know he's looking over our department.

  16. #36
    sgtdave2002
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    I JUST WANT TO SAY THAT I DID NOT MEAN TO RIP ON THE DETROIT FIRE DEPARTMENT AS A WHOLE. THE GUYS MADE THEMSELVES LOOK LIKE TOTAL IDIOTS. I UNDERSTAND THAT THEY ARE JUST 4 GUYS OUT OF 1300 ON THE DFD. WHEN THOSE GUYS GO OUT TO A PUBLIC EVENT LIKE THE FIREMANS MEMORIAL AND ACT LIKE THEY DID, PEOPLE WILL LOOK AT THEM AS THE WHOLE DEPARTMENT. I TRULY BELIEVE THAT THE DETROIT FIRE DEPARTMENT IS ONE OF THE BEST REGARDLESS OF THE NEGATIVE PRESS RELEASES. I MEANT TO MAKE THE FIREFIGHTERS OF DETROIT AWARE OF THE BROTHERS THAT ARE MAKING THEIR DEPARTMENT LOOK BAD. IF I HAD THE NAMES OF THESE FIREFIGHTERS I WOULD HAVE POSTED THEM TOO. THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR THEIR BEHAVIOR. I WOULD LIKE TO APOLOGIZE TO THE REST OF THE DETROIT FIRE DEPARTMENT THAT ARE WORKING SO HARD TO MAKE THEIR CITY LOOK BETTER IN THE EYES OF THE CITIZENS. I DIDN'T PUT MY DEPARTMENT IN MY PROFILE BECAUSE THESE ARE THE VIEWS OF ME AND NOT MY DEPARTMENT. IF I WAS TO MAKE A BAD JUDGEMENT IN WHAT I SAY I WOULD NOT WANT IT TO COME BACK ON MY DEPARTMENT. THIS TOPIC WAS BROUGHT UP HERE ON THE FIREFIGHTERS FORUM TO GET THE VIEWS OF YOUR BROTHERS AND SISTERS. I UNDERSTAND THAT I COULD HAVE GOTTEN THE NAMES OF THE FIREFIGHTERS AND SENT A LETTER TO THE COMMISSIONER. I DIDN'T WANT TO MAKE IT THAT BIG OF A DEAL. IF IT WERE ME I WOULD MUCH RATHER HEAR ALL MY BROTHERS AND SISTERS COMMENTS THAN THE ONES OF MY SUPERIORS. KEEP IT REAL EVERYBODY. YOU HAVE TO LOVE THIS JOB TO DO IT.

    EVERYBODY LOOK OUT FOR YOUR BROTHERS AND SISTERS AND WE CAN BRING THE GROWING NUMBER OF LODD'S DOWN.

  17. #37
    RJE
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    On the human nature side of the issue, here's a slightly different perspective:

    In the military, death of a comrade is fairly common, especially in wartime. I've been there, and done that. Here's what happens.

    First, there's a very solemn, ritualistic, honorable funeral/memorial service. It's done in full dress.

    Then there's a wake. Everyone who drinks gets stinking drunk. It's probably at a local bar where all the locals know all the mils hang out. If they trash the place, or otherwise embarrass themselves, everyone knows it was mil members.

    BUT... they change out of uniform first!

    Treat this a two separate incidents, and one is brothers honoring a fallen brother, then having a good old time at a wake. Run them together, and it's a bad PR nightmare. I don't care what organization it happens to.

    my 2Ę

  18. #38
    comwhite
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    detmichfire,

    While I agree, it may not have been appropriate to name the department, the mistake was made. The majority of us responded to the act, not your department. I even went so far as to post an incident that happened with our hometown department. Your reply, sir, only added insult to injury, as far as I'm concerned. To say that either of these posts was intended for the 1300 of your members is ridiculous. However if you think that all your members are deserving of it, I'd say you give the minority reason to question. Four firefighters somewhere disrespected their uniform and their positions, by appearing at a public function intoxicated. They probably weren't the first, and more than likely they won't be the last, but you can't condone it. And you can't say that to say that about four firefighters, I should be saying it to 1300 of you.

    What would happen if I went to an event where the men you speak so proudly about (the 1300) were at, and I told them I had heard about their department on the Firehouse Forum. That a gentleman who went by detmichfire, classified all of them in the same category. I wonder if you're response would have been the same if the woman who was insulted had been your mother?

  19. #39
    FRED
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    BucksEng91- None taken.

    No where in my post did I condone their actions. I just said that I felt the post wasn't needed and should have been kept private. If it was a big deal it should be delt with at the time not in a public forum such as this.

    LT 1951 just asked who he was with. Nothing more. You can guess what he meant but since I am not inside his head I will not pretend to know what his intentions were.

    And I have to disagree with you... Brotherhood doesn't end at shift change...I might tell him he was an A** later on but only in private. In public short of Criminal behavior I would stick up for a brother On or off-duty! Just my personal view.

    Just Two cents from a fireman.

  20. #40
    Gill
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    I am disheartened with some of what I have read in this thread. Read all throughout this forum, and you continually read about the brotherhood of the fire service and how we are all brothers. Yet we resort to calling fellow brothers idiots. That is uncalled for. I agree with Fred. We need to support our brothers in the public eye (unless they've done something illegal of course). But a scolding, a** kicking, or whatever you feel is called for should be done in private with the firefighter(s) in question. Isn't that what brothers do for each other? Isn't that part of brotherhood--keeping each other in check?

    Please don't misinterpret my comments as condoning these firmens' behavior. I believe what they did was wrong. But firing or banning them from the fire service is not the answer. As Fred said, we have all made mistakes. Did other fire department members shout for your removal from the service when you messed up? Did your actions really warrant banning you from the fire service? I tend to think not. This "holier-than-thou" attitude does nothing but chip away at the brotherhood. We all know we're not perfect and that we make mistakes. Yet when someone elses mistakes are made known, many of us are the first to put a negative label on them. Is this attitude any better than that of the four firemen in question?

    detmichfire is doing what I think he should do. He's defending his brothers publicly. Never in his post did he say he agreed with or condoned what his brothers did. But he has made known that he knows the firemen in question, and that there is more to them than the little bit we have been told. I see where he is coming from and I don't feel he is out of line by feeling offended. He, as many members of the Detroit Fire Department have a deep sense of brotherhood with their fellow firemen. So deep that when someone from the outside insults any of them, the others feel the effects also. I know I would feel the same way. There is nothing wrong with feeling that way and standing in defense of your brothers.

    Oh by the way BucksEng91, I am what you refer to as a "super trooper paid guy", but I prefer paid or career fireman. Super trooper denotes that I'm better than others. Think what you want, for whatever reasons, but please don't resort to name-calling.



    ------------------
    I LOVE THIS JOB!

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