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  1. #1
    MetalMedic
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Smile "Scotty, raise the Shields, ISO is coming!"

    I have spent the morning at the station helping get things ready for a pending visit from the ISO rating people. It is amazing to look over their standards and see nothing different from the last time they came through the area.

    Some things they require baffle me. Does anyone know why they want a high volume nozzle on a special service truck that has no pump and carries no water? How about the need for a portable master stream nozzle on an aerial platform with a master stream mounted on the bucket? And my favorite is the hose requirements. Nothing is really said about how to carry it, but if you don't have a booster reel, you need 800 feet of 1 1/2" hose with 200 feet on a pre-connect. If you do have the booster, you just need 600 feet and it can all be in donut rolls.

    What are some of the other unusual ISO requirements you all have come up against??

    ------------------
    Richard Nester
    Orrville (OH) Fire Dept.


    [This message has been edited by MetalMedic (edited 02-10-2001).]


  2. #2
    LHS*
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    //Does anyone know why they want a high volume nozzle on a special service truck that has no pump and carries no water?

    They don't.

    //How about the need for a portable master stream nozzle on an aerial platform with a master stream mounted on the bucket?

    They don't.

    //Nothing is really said about how to carry it, but if you don't have a booster reel,
    you need 800 feet of 1 1/2" hose with 200 feet on a pre-connect. If you do have the booster, you just need 600 feet and it can all be in donut rolls.

    There is no requirement for 800 feet of 1 1/2" hose to be carried.




    [This message has been edited by LHS* (edited 02-12-2001).]

  3. #3
    FyredUp
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    LHS,

    Here's one for you. 17 months and still waiting for the report from ISO. I called again and was told crytically by the rater who came to our FD that we improved but she couldn't tell me how much. But....she would call her supevisor and find out why we STILL didn't have our report. I got a phone call from her a week ago Friday promising the report last week....STILL waiting.

    What a bunch of nonsense. They leave here with all the data they need. It shouldn't take more than a couple of days to figure that up. Or even given the bureaucracy involved more than a couple of months. Jump when they call and say they are coming, but wait forever for a response back.

    No wonder firefighters everywhere are losing faith or whatever in the ISO.

    Take care and stay safe,

    FyredUp

  4. #4
    LHS*
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Why lose faith? The average FD gets a class 7 and the rural guy gets a Class 9.



    [This message has been edited by LHS* (edited 02-12-2001).]

  5. #5
    Adze
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Default

    Larry, the ISO is coming to my FD on 3/19 and I am the lucky one who has to meet with the rep. Are you suggesting I take notes and keep score while the ISO rep is here? Are there any other suggestions of things for me to be doing or checking while the rep is at my firehouse?

    The Board of Directors and the Officers in my FD have been dealing with preparing for the ISO for 2 maybe 3 years, but did not form an actual committee until approximately a year ago. We decided that we are going to make our ISO committee a permanent committee. That way we can continuously prepare and make improvements for 10 years down the road when the ISO comes knocking on our door again.

    A little side note...I was talking with an officer tonight from the other FD in my town. The ISO is coming to their place on 3/16. I asked her how long they have been preparing. Her response: 2 weeks. That is when both of our FD's heard from the ISO regarding the visits.

    [This message has been edited by Adze (edited 02-11-2001).]

  6. #6
    LHS*
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    //Are you suggesting I take notes and keep score while the ISO rep is here?

    Yes!

    There is a form in my bok (free at www.isoslayer.com)

    Everytime you do something ask didn't we get all points if not why not. What i missing , if I bought thiis did this gave you a letter whatever woud I get the points.

    //Are there any other suggestions of things for me to be doing or checking while the rep is at my firehouse?

    If he won't tell you how you are doing then ask to talk to his bosss on the phone, let them know it is a two way street if they want info they better share if not you'll call the state insurance commissioer or let them work through your city attorneys office. If you don't know what you are doing don;t get involved

    //2 weeks. That is when both of our FD's heard from the ISO regarding the visits.

    They send a letter 3 months in advance and then call to follow up 60 days then 30 days in advance.

    Read the book if you're not sure what to do.

  7. #7
    F52 Westside
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Cool

    LHS* --- The ) got trapped in your web address..
    www.isoslayer.com


    ------------------
    Eddie C. - a.k.a - PTFD21
    ECarn21's Homefire Page
    Local 3008
    "Doin' it for lives n' property"

  8. #8
    MetalMedic
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Red face

    Originally posted by LHS*:
    //Does anyone know why they want a high volume nozzle on a special service truck that has no pump and carries no water?

    They don't.

    //How about the need for a portable master stream nozzle on an aerial platform with a master stream mounted on the bucket?

    They don't.

    //Nothing is really said about how to carry it, but if you don't have a booster reel,
    you need 800 feet of 1 1/2" hose with 200 feet on a pre-connect. If you do have the booster, you just need 600 feet and it can all be in donut rolls.

    There is no requirement for 800 feet of 1 1/2" hose to be carried, the schedule is very clear.

    //What are some of the other unusual ISO requirements you all have come up against??

    Other than the ones you are misquoting?
    LHS, I normally agree with your postings, but I am not misquoting ANYTHING from the forms we had to go by to be sure we were compliant with the ISO standards. As I said, I spent the morning going over two of our engines and assisted with the rescue to be sure we had all our duckies lined up.

    My Assistant Chief asked me to see what I could find out from others on Firehouse.com about the ISO madness. I will see if I can get copies of the forms we had so I can send them to you since you apparently have different information than we do. In the meantime, we have the hose loaded as ISO requires and are looking for a high volume nozzle for the rescue.

    BTW, I guess we are lucky since we are rated a 5 and not the "average" 7 you quote. We would still like to be a 4, so we will do what it takes to get there.



    ------------------
    Richard Nester
    Orrville (OH) Fire Dept.

  9. #9
    ttjjss
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Talking

    LHS,
    i am sitting here with the ISO fire supression rating schedule in my hand.
    first-
    in table 544.A, equipment for a service company, the first thing listed is a large spray nozzle (500-gpm minimum)
    this is on the service truck, which can be anything from an extra pumper with the equipment listed to a pickup truck with the same equipment loaded on it.
    our service truck is our old main truck, 1974 ford, with homemade 1000 gal tank and 70 gpm pto pump, and with all the equipment listed under table 544.A, plus 2, 200 ft 1 1/2" preconnects, and a set of ladders,
    second-
    in table 544.B, additional equip for ladder company
    an elevate stream device worth 100 points is listed, and at the bottom it says, of sufficient height to reach the roof of any building, or 100 feet , whichever is less, the credit shall be prorated if existing equip has insufficent reach.
    third,
    in table 512.A
    on the booster 200 ft is required or extra preconnected 1 1/2" hose may be substituted for booster hose, which means, 200 ft for a booster and 400 ft of 1 1/2" carried, plus 200 ft of 1 1/2" spare, which may also be carried, that would be 800 ft total. with only 600 ft required to be carried.
    i have been getting us ready for ISO for over two years now, i can almost read this stuff by memory, we are going to be inspected on march 13th, will let everyone know how it goes, but i have already seen from reports from other depts that each inspector interprets some things slightly different from each other.
    we are a class 7 and should go to at least a class 5, all vollie dept with 18 members, and about $7500 a year budget.
    TYLER

  10. #10
    LHS*
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    //Does anyone know why they want a high volume nozzle on a special service truck that has no pump and carries no water?

    The ISO field procedure manual states only if an elevated stream device is required, that won't be on a service company it will be on a ladder company.

    // How about the need for a portable master stream nozzle on an aerial platform with a master stream mounted on the bucket?

    Nothing listed about a portable master stream.

    The 800 page book called the Field procedures Manual say only applies for ladder companies, just like a deck gun is not needed on a pumper in some circulstances, and ground ladders are not required on service companies in some cases.

    //in table 512.A
    on the booster 200 ft is required or extra preconnected 1 1/2" hose may be substituted for booster hose, which means, 200 ft for a booster and 400 ft of 1 1/2" carried, plus 200 ft of 1 1/2" spare, which may also be carried, that would be 800 ft total. with only 600 ft required to be carried.
    i have been getting us ready for ISO for over two years now,

    Well those two 1 1/2" lines better be preconnected that is the requirement.




    [This message has been edited by LHS* (edited 02-12-2001).]

  11. #11
    MetalMedic
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Thumbs down

    Ok, other than "Mr. Know it all" (Oh my goodness, shall I bow before the almighty Class 1 guru??), can anyone else shed some light on why we need 800 feet of 1 1/2" hose on our engine that does not have a booster line as required in table 512.A? And we are still looking for a 500gpm nozzle for our rescue so we can get the "Service Company" rating as stated in 544.A. As for the portable master stream on the aerial, I have no idea where the Chief came up with that, but he said it is written somewhere in the ISO standards beside the FIRE SUPPRESSION RATING SCHEDULE (probably in that 800 page 'bible' of yours). Thank God we got that here "Burst Hose Jacket" on board... haven't seen one ever used in 21 years of service, but it must be really important if ISO says we need it!

    Please forgive me oh ISO Slayer, for I have sinned.. we all know that you are the almighty and hence can make no mistakes. I guess if State Farm ends up killing ISO, you will basically be impotent. Then you will have to work for your ratings like the rest of us!

    ------------------
    Richard Nester
    Orrville (OH) Fire Dept.




    [This message has been edited by MetalMedic (edited 02-11-2001).]

  12. #12
    ttjjss
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Talking

    now, now Metal,
    i think Lhs is trying to help , but i do wish he would talk across to us instead of down,
    seriously, LHS , where did you come up with the 800 page bible, i have talked to 5 or 6 different people from ISO in the last two years and none have said anything about it, ,
    my first question to them was, is the 1980 edition of the FSRS up to date, i got the same answer from all of them, yes , it is the current book, and to go by all the text and charts in it, nothin has ever been said about an 800 page book, but if there is such a thing, i want to see it, preferably before march 13th when we get rerated
    also, if you have helped many depts get a class 1, why is it that only one dept got a class one in all of the year 2000,
    the man is just asking for some help, not a butt chewing, we are all not so fortunate to be an ISO insider and have their 800 page top secret guideline, where are we supposed to get it ????
    Metal
    you do need to have 2 preconnects with 200 ft each, and wouldnt hurt to carry at least 200 ft of the extra or all 400 ft of extra just for safetys sake,
    i also have wondered why the 500 gpm nozzle is required on the service truck and not a pumper, another one is why do they require 6 pike poles on the service truck and none are required on the engines ?? same with a smoke ejector, floodlights, generator,and hose roller, all required on a service truck, but not on the engine, i say get at least the equipment listed in the fsrs and also put the common sense equip on your trucks as well,
    by the way, i do know for a fact that many depts are getting lower classes than they deserve, have seen about a dozen cases in the last two years, part of it is that ISO is hiring many more people to be inspectors and some are actually fairly local people, so they give all the help they can to their neighbors, i wish ISO would update their requirements and also look at doing a seperate rating for all volunteer depts, the requirements as of now are set up with mainly full time depts in mind,
    good luck Metal
    TYLER

  13. #13
    MetalMedic
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Unhappy

    Thanks Tyler for your words of wisdom. And I apologize to LHS, I fired without aiming... your comments caught me at a weak moment :-). As for pre-connects, I don't have my 1980 edition in hand here, but if you have a 200 foot booster, there is no requirement for pre-connects, just a requirement for amount of 1 1/2". However, if you do not have a booster, you can substitute a 200 foot pre-connect 1 1/2". So, I guess ISO still likes booster lines.

    I should have some ideas Wednesday on how our inspection went. We got our pike poles on our "Service" truck. Not sure if the Chief found a 500GPM nozzle...



    ------------------
    Richard Nester
    Orrville (OH) Fire Dept.

  14. #14
    LHS*
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    //can anyone else shed some light on why we need 800 feet of 1 1/2" hose on our engine that does not have a booster

    You need three 200 foot preconnects. The booster can be one. One of the preconects can be 1", 1 1/2", 1 3/4" or 2". The other two can be 1 1/2". 1 3/4" or 2".

    The 200 feet of spare does not have to be preconnected and it doesn't have to be on the rig

    //Thank God we got that here "Burst Hose Jacket" on board...

    There is no requirement for a burst hose jacket.

    //i have talked to 5 or 6 different people from ISO in the last two years and none have said anything about it, ,

    They know what the field procedures guides are.

    //my first question to them was, is the 1980 edition of the FSRS up to date, i got the same answer from all of them, yes , it is the current book

    No they don't they use the 08-98 edition.

    /and to go by all the text and charts in it,

    You know better than that, where is anything written about tanker shuttles? Harry HIckey's book supports my claims as well.

    //if you have helped many depts get a class 1, why is it that only one dept got a class one in all of the year 2000,

    Actually, it was two Milford and Frisco, one the year before that, 6 the year before that, then 2, 2, 3, 2, 3, 3, 2 the other years.

    Beats me, could it be it takes time? You're seeing a 5% increase in Class 1's a year. A 35% increase over 3 years and a 59% increase in 5 years. 15 years between departments getting a one were common. Many departments have lost their ones, LA, racine, Miami, etc. What was the point you are trying to make?

    I spent most of my time this year helping departments get 10's of millions of dollars with ISO savings to buy things and I helped others without water systems go from Class 9's and 10's to Class 3 through 6's. They have more to gain than most other FD's and have the greatest FD needs.


    //we are all not so fortunate to be an ISO insider and have their 800 page top secret guideline, where are we supposed to get it ????

    Actually you are, www.isoslayer.com Most of what you are asking is there free for the taking.


    //you do need to have 2 preconnects with 200 ft each,

    No, you need three.

    //and wouldnt hurt to carry at least 200 ft of the extra or all 400 ft of extra just for safetys sake,

    200 feet spare stored anywhere counts. There is no extra credit or safety sake offered by ISO.

    //i also have wondered why the 500 gpm nozzle is required on the service truck and not a pumper, another one is why do they require 6 pike poles on the service truck and none are required on the engines ?? same with a smoke ejector, floodlights, generator,and hose roller, all required on a service truck, but not on the engine,

    They used the current NFPA 19 (1901 today) in effect at the time the schedule was written. You'll get credit for these items as long as they respond to calls on first alarm no matter what rig carries them.

    The 500 fog tip which by the way will not get 100% credit if you carry it, is on the list so they could have one list for service and one list for ladder service companies.


    // i wish ISO would update their requirements and also look at doing a seperate rating for all volunteer depts, the requirements as of now are set up with mainly full time depts in mind,

    With the current rating system about 40,000 FD's have class 9's in part of their area. 34% have a class 9 over their entire area. 3% have class 10's as threir prmary rating. 8.7% have 8's, 15.1% have 7's, 15.9% have 6's.

    Right there, you have 77% of all FD's with a grade of less than 40% of the requirements.

    Seems to me if they raised the bar, the grades would be even worse. Doesn't it make sense for you to have enough water for the fires in your town? That NFPA be the basis of all needs? That is the current ISO system.


    //So, I guess ISO still likes booster lines.

    They simply give an option to one.



    [This message has been edited by LHS* (edited 02-12-2001).]

  15. #15
    MetalMedic
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Unhappy

    I never knew I could start such a debate when I was just asking for some one else's experience...

    FIRE DEPARTMENT - TABLE 512.A PUMPER EQUIPMENT AND HOSE

    Booster Tank 300 gal.
    Hose:
    Booster(*) 200'
    1 1/2-inch: Carried 400'
    spare (may be also be carried) 200'
    2 1/2-inch: spare (may also be carried)200'

    *Extra pre-connected 1 1/2-inch hose may be substituted for booster hose.

    ------------ also -------------

    Burst Hose Jacket (2 1/2-inch) 1

    Ok, that is what he MUST follow since it is what ISO tells us to follow (even with the typo). Apparently, your ISO people have different stuff than ours do since ours have not provided the 08-98 edition... I guess the bottom line here is that ISO has stacked the cards against us and therefore, there is no way to intelligently discuss this matter here any further.

    I am tired of being lectured about how bad we are in the fire service and that you have the only department that amounts to a hill of beans. I am so sorry that my State cannot possibly meet the standards of yours. I speak not only as a member of a volunteer fire department, but also as an elected officer of a County Association and a member of the State Association. What you have out there is great, but don't think that we are not trying to achieve the same goals. Unfortunately, there is this thing called "politics" that rears its ugly head when you try to mandate things like sprinklers in buildings above one story. Just because we don't have such a law, does not mean that we would not like to have one.

    ------------------
    Richard Nester
    Orrville (OH) Fire Dept.


    [This message has been edited by MetalMedic (edited 02-12-2001).]

  16. #16
    LHS*
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    //I never knew I could start such a debate

    It is not a debate just cold hard facts.


    //Burst Hose Jacket (2 1/2-inch)

    There is a substitution list that says you can carry a hose clamp and an additional 50 feet of 2 1/2" hose.

    /Apparently, your ISO people have different stuff than ours do since ours have not provided the 08-98 edition...

    The whole US has the same books, basic same rules, same people review everything.



    [This message has been edited by LHS* (edited 02-12-2001).]

  17. #17
    firedoc6
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Wink

    Im not even interested in this topic, but lhs, youre a real *******!

  18. #18
    MetalMedic
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Wink

    Originally posted by LHS*:
    I'm sure my department hasn't earned anything or worked within a political system.

    Well now, that explains EVERYTHING!


  19. #19
    SRVFD2
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Thumbs up

    Thanks guys!! I can't resist saying thumbs up to the last two replies!!!

  20. #20
    LHS*
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    I'm sorry I'll rephrase it:

    You need two 1 1/2" 200' preconnects,

    a booster reel or another 200' preconnect,

    200 feet of spare 1 1/2" hose on the rig or in the station.

    You do not need a 500 fog, you'll need a 1000 fog for full credit on a ladder service company and no fog tip is needed for a service company,

    you do not need a hose jacket, 50 feet of 2 1/2" hose and a hose clamp will get the same credit.

    There you go!

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