03-03-2001, 12:19 AM #1backdraftblaze87Firehouse.com Guest
im a jr ff in pa
i really want to learn all i can as a jr to be a better ff
i no that i cant no everything about fire
and i will never no all there is to firefighting
but i need help, i have been looking over back drafts and flashovers
i have always been told if u see warnings of flashovers to drop ur gear and get out because ur bunkers wont save u.
now im being told by another ff that hitting a flashover with a stream that i wont do anything.
if some one could help me out and tell me what to do.
also they told me that flashovers are not that dangerous and ur a scardy cat if u drop ur stuff and get out
03-03-2001, 11:13 AM #2fire69dawgFirehouse.com Guest
If you remeber the old saying "Put the wet stuff on the red stuff" you should do fine. I don't recommend running. That is part of the reason that you have that hose line with you, for protection. You have to watch what type of stream you use as well, to much of a fog and you will get steamed. If its me, and it flashes, I get on my back and fight like hell.Thats me though.
03-15-2001, 04:45 PM #3570eckFirehouse.com Guest
There are too many different situations to list, but in general if you are close to the door duck out, there is no sense in staying in there is nothing to save all life is lost and to h**l with the contents. If you are not close enough to the door to duck out a solid stream to the ceiling should do the trick, but remeber that is no gaurentee. As far as your gear protecting you, there are also many different possibilties. Depending on your gear it can vary as to the temp. it will protect you to. Our current gear will protect you to near 1000 (not sure on exact #'s) a flashover can vary from 1200 to 1400+. Now the manufactur states that the gear will protect you in a flashover, not true while the gear will probably surive the temp. for a short burst you will not. It is totaly possible to overheat in your gear it happens all the time. As for the person telling you, you're a scardy cat, you can see him in the hospital. Don't put yourself in a situation you are not comfortable with, there is nothing worth saving to injure yourself over. whoever that person is stay as far away as possible, he's bound to get hurt. Fear and respect can save your *** but the knowledge will tell you which to fear and which to respect.
the truth never hides for long
03-16-2001, 12:04 AM #4LtStickFirehouse.com Guest
it all depends on your situation but, generally as a rule if you get caught in a flashover and are unable to exit the building. You should lie on your back and apply a solid stream to the ceiling.
As for the person who called you a scardy cat. You could always tell them I'd rather be a scared cat than a dead cat.
As for your gear it all depends on the type and condition. Most modern gear offers a good level of protection but, it can only do so much. You also have to remember it doesn't keep you from heating up. There is no AC unit in your gear. So you should be careful so you don't become over heated and possibly suffer heat stoke. then you would do nobody including yourself any good.
The best advise I can give you is talk to one of your Chiefs or a experienced firefighter that you can trust.
You'll find that there will be Firefighters that you wouldn't think twice about going in with than there will be others you would want to avoid going in with unless there was no one else. You will learn these things in time.
03-16-2001, 10:33 AM #5FFTrainerFirehouse.com Guest
Experience is one of the greatest teachers however, in the meantime try talking with older members of your dept and get their first hand explanations.
Another idea is that when old enough and certified, enroll in a Flashover simulator training session. You can watch an 'engineered' flashover build up and occur right before your eyes.
Good luck and stay safe! You're off to a good start by admitting you will never know all there is to know about fighting fires. Some people out there need to learn the concept that training is never ending in the fire service!
03-16-2001, 06:59 PM #6David PolikoffFirehouse.com Guest
First, you need to know the warning signs of a flashover. If you feel the heat through you gear it may be too late. Look for rollover this is unburned gases that are igniting at the ceiling level. This tells you that the heat level at the ceiling is getting very hot. If you see rollover you can control it by opening the nozzle in a straight stream and hit the ceiling and walls ahead of you. Do not hit the ceiling above you this will cause hot water to rain down on you and you could be burnt. It is important to remember that a flashover is when the walls and the ceiling get to the point that the can not absorb any more heat so the heat is then radiated back to the contents in the room. If you cool the walls and the ceiling, you are allowing them to continue to absorb heat. If you find yourself in a situation where you are caught in, a flashover and you can not get to a door or a window and you do not have a hose line for protection. The corner is the next safest place to be get down low and cover yourself with any thing you can find. Please do not get me wrong you will be burned but your actions just might save your life. I know that others will not agree with me and that is fine. I am only relaying what I have been taught. For more information please go to this web site and read about flashover http://www.workingfire.net/misc3.htm if you have any questions please feel free to E-mail me. Continue to learn all about the job. You will be a better and safer firefighter.
Take care and be safe.
David Polikoff www.workingfire.net
[This message has been edited by David Polikoff (edited 03-16-2001).]
03-17-2001, 09:28 AM #7First InFirehouse.com Guest
Keep in mind that in a true flashover, all contents of a room are ignited nearly simultaneously. This includes you and your gear. Very few firefighters survive true flashovers. Vincent Dunn (ret. FDNY Dep. Chief, author of FF Safety and Survival) considers just a few steps inside a room the "point of no return." True, your PBI may withstand temperatures of up to 1300 degrees for a few seconds, but your body won't. I think some firefighters confuse rapid fire progression from other sources with true flashovers at times. If you see the tell-tale signs, by all means try to cool the upper areas with a straight or solid stream. I that doesn't work, get out. Like I said, the odds of surviving a TRUE flashover are not in your favor. Keep up the good work. Choose your mentors carefully, and do as you are doing now. Reinforce what they teach you by checking up on things yourself. Soon you'll learn who is on top of things and who isn't! I think we have an EXCELLENT firefighter in the making!
03-17-2001, 08:42 PM #8Tindog18Firehouse.com Guest
I would just out of habit hit the ceiling as you go into the room of involvement just to avoid the chance of flash like the other guys said hit the ceiling, stay low and if all else fails get out. Fire is to be respected and not taken lightly. ANOTHER thing keep your gear clean this will help with rising temps if the gear is dirty and full of soot and other things it will not protect you as much, BUT look at the washing instuctions and follow the closely there is a deturgent out there for gear but make sure it won't ruin yours.
03-17-2001, 11:26 PM #9cmjonesFirehouse.com Guest
If you just hit the ceiling with a straight stream wouldnt you be disturbing the thermal layering? Yea it would cool the gases and help prevent flashover but it would still heat up the lower part of the thermal layering where you are crawling around. I was taught to move the hose in a clockwise motion with a straight stream while hitting the upper portion of a room to avoid disturbing the layers.
[This message has been edited by cmjones (edited 03-17-2001).]
03-18-2001, 06:30 PM #10David PolikoffFirehouse.com Guest
If you use a solid stream or a straight stream at the ceiling level using only enough water to control the rollover or to cool the walls and the ceiling you should not disturb the thermal layer. If you move the nozzle in a circular motion then you may bring the heat from the ceiling down on you. It is important to remember that when you are trying to prevent a possible flashover situation you are hitting the ceiling and the walls ahead of you. You will be driving the flaming gases back to the origin of the fire. Remember the droplets that are falling down are larger than that of a fog and the will not vaporize like that of the fog thus producing less steam. Also the penetration of the smooth bore will punch through the thermal layer without up setting it like the fog can. I was taught that when you use a smooth bore you want to sweep the ceiling and walls ahead of you using a side to side motion, almost a violent side to side motion, this tactic is used when you can not get to the room of origin. If you can make the room it is best to hit the base of the fire. You will find that when you put large amounts of water on the fire at the base there is less steam produced unlike when you use a fog nozzle. You will also find that the thermal layer will cool slowly and your visibility will remain. There is usually no white out from steam.
This is what I have learned from training and actual fire situation. I feel that this works best for me. It is important to remember “just because it is different does not mean it is wrong”.
For more information read Dave Fornells Fire Stream book. It has lots of information about nozzles as well as practical applications.
David Polikoff www.workingfire.net
[This message has been edited by David Polikoff (edited 03-18-2001).]
03-18-2001, 10:08 PM #11firefighter15_wvFirehouse.com Guest
I don't have much experience yet, but I still don't think it would be a good idea to take off your bunkers in the event of a flashover, just a thought.
03-21-2001, 02:02 AM #12lumpy649Firehouse.com Guest
Fire15WV... I think the comment about "dropping gear" was referring to any equipment you might be carrying, or abandoning the hoseline and getting out. I won't advocate leaving the line (but I certainly wouldn't hang around and see what happens next... hit it and back the hell up)... it's a form of protection,and may save your life if confronted with rapid fire progression/flashover/heavy rollover but then people react different ways to different things. Take it for what it's worth, but it's only my opinion.
[This message has been edited by lumpy649 (edited 03-21-2001).]
03-23-2001, 10:14 PM #13fireman_1Firehouse.com Guest
NEVER drop your gear in a fire! That's part of your protection! I would never leave my gear in a involved structure!!!! That would leave you unprotected! Fight the fire with the hose! Don't run like a little wussy! If you want to be a true firefighter fight the fire until the fire gets ready to win! Then you bail out! But don't bail out until you are in danger! Just sitting there and letting the backdraft go over is in most cases "safe". But if you have a good inncident commander...he should get you out of there before somthing bad happens!
03-24-2001, 11:04 AM #14backdraftblaze87Firehouse.com Guest
thank you so much guys for ur help.
its very helpful when u can come and chat with other experainced fire fighters to learn.
ill be the first one to say ill never no anything but i sure love to learn
welp thanks again
ps. by droping ur gear i ment house axe stuff like that not turnout gear
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