Thread: High Pressue
03-22-2001, 02:32 PM #26ignition_pointFirehouse.com Guest
I think that there are good reasons for having booster line, and good reasons for 1 3/4 attack lines, it's really just dependant on the situation. I would rather use a booster on a trash fire, or a small weed fire, maybe even a car fire... But inside of a structure I would rather have an 1 3/4. One *BIG* reason is the couplings. If you get lost inside a structure, and you come across a booster line, how do you know which way is out and which way is towards the nozzle? With the hose with couplings you can at least determine which way is out. The two types of hoses have their respectful duties...
03-26-2001, 05:44 PM #27ngr1f3Firehouse.com Guest
NFPA states the minimum size for attack hose is 1 1/2. My State Bereau of Health and Labor Standards uses this as standard of practice, when investigating injury or death of fire personnel. I believe that high pressure booster 1 " will flow about 35- 45 GPM at up to 1000 PSI a great deal of PSI with little to no penetration distance.In fog mode there is a great risk to FF, victim, and melting everything in the building building if it is not properly vented. There is no accepted training curriculum to teach the use of high pressure in Maine. "MFT+E" IFSTA essentials does not cover it either. When in doubt stay away. Use accepted standards. I believe this is what the post was asking for, not to be confused with horse power tools and various unrelated items.
03-26-2001, 06:32 PM #28LHS*Firehouse.com Guest
//NFPA states ...
It also states all buildings will have a water supply, that everyone will be certified, that there will be 6 guys on a fire truck in your commercial area, that all your gear and trucks will meet standards, all buildings will meet all the codes, it says buildings will be sprinkled, you'll have a flow meter and a pressure gauge on your LDH discharges, that yo pumper even equipped with storz hard suction must have a rubber mallet, that you town needs half the ground ladders today as it did 20 years ago, all your extrication personnel will be certified ...
So we just pick and choose the ones we like, I guess?? You know your state is not following a majority of the above.
//I believe that high pressure booster 1 " will flow about 35- 45 GPM at up to 1000 PSI a great deal of PSI with little to no penetration distance.
Simple math, "NFPA" formulas, and entire nations flowing more than that will show flows of 205 gpm out of the booster reel. Reach, it will be the same as any other 205 gpm stream. It isn't an issue of what you "believe" it is a fact. NFPA say the friction loss for a flow of 45 gpm is only 30 psi per 100 feet of hose. So unless that booster you are talking about is 2,550 feet long I'd say you are very wrong.
According to NFPA, 95 gpm will travel 650 feet.
Use soft 1" hose and both go a lot farther and the flows increase too!
//In fog mode there is a great risk to FF, victim, and melting everything in the building building if it is not properly vented.
Sorry "NFPA" says you'll vent before applying water. Use straight stream...you'll find it real hard to make steam.
// There is no accepted training curriculum to teach the use of high pressure in Maine.
I suppose there was one for imagers, fast teams, CAFS, accountability, etc.... Someone wrote them when there was a need..
Gee what is high pressure? Is 250 psi high pressure? That is the EP for 95 gpm out of a 1" reel or soft hose wrapped on a reel.
//IFSTA essentials does not cover it either.
Or imagers, CAFS, quints, fast teams, accountability, etc.
//When in doubt stay away.
Yep if it ain't in the book don't do it. EVER! NFPA dioes cover booster hose, pumps etc. Every pump used for high pressure all 100 years worth meet NFPA. So throw the cow tag accountability tags away too?
//Use accepted standards.
All of them. Don't pick and choose.
//I believe this is what the post was asking for, not to be confused with horse power tools and various unrelated items.
Nice thing about a forum we can speak about anything we want. Yeah gallons put out fire, it doesn't matter what size hose is used to hit the fire.
Oh by the way, NFPA says 1 1/2" hose and 95 gpm. Do you suppose there is a reason they called for the flow rate? Yeah. Because that is what is important.
Now if we follow NFPA to the letter than that is the only size line and flow you should ever use. If we follow NFPA you can't have a gate valve on the side suction of your pumper. If we follow NFPA the largest fog nozzle will be 200 gpm. If you follow NFPA you have two labels on your fire truck that say, "Serious injury or death will result if..." Do you have those???
Golly if we followed NFPA the worst ISO grade we could get is a CLass 1. Huh, we must not believe in ALL of NFPA because 77% of all FDs have a Class 6 or worse. And in Maine barely a handful have anything but a Class 9 beyond 1000 feet from a fire hydrant. So I guess only certain parts of NFPA count in your state. I guess you are all operating FD's out of jails??? Not following the State rules? Nah, nobody really cares now do they???
03-26-2001, 11:01 PM #29ignition_pointFirehouse.com Guest
LHS: Is there any specific reason why you only breakdown what others say and not make any of your own independant posts? You seem to breakoff in a tangent from the topic to cut others down, I'm still trying to figure out what your position is on this vary topic as I haven't found your position, clearly.
03-27-2001, 01:16 AM #30LHS*Firehouse.com Guest
//I'm still trying to figure out what your position is on this vary topic as I haven't found your position, clearly.
I'll go slow, use the smallest lightest line that will move the gallons per minute.
03-27-2001, 08:36 AM #31res7cueFirehouse.com Guest
LHS, Your postings are PATHETIC!
03-27-2001, 10:00 AM #32LHS*Firehouse.com Guest
That was a very constructive post, right on topic, something that shares your views on the topic at hand. Let me guess you have nothing intelligent to share on the topic?
03-27-2001, 10:01 AM #33ChiefMcDFirehouse.com Guest
LHS - I get a kick out of your post. I often wonder why you department hasn't kicked you off yet. You would last about an hour on my department.
03-27-2001, 12:56 PM #34res7cueFirehouse.com Guest
[This message has been edited by res7cue (edited 03-28-2001).]
03-27-2001, 02:49 PM #35LHS*Firehouse.com Guest
Gee Res7cue coming from someone who hasn't posted anything of substance about this topic or even expressed a view about boosters, flow, etc...who cares what you think about anything other than the topic on this forum? Oh nice web page for your Fayetteville PA fire department.
Let's see if we can get you back on topic.
You stated on another board that you use:
2- 1.75" x 150' crosslays
2- 2" x 200' crosslays
1- 1.5" x 150' crosslay,
(posted 01-26-2001 02:14 PM What size preconnects do you prefer? )
You go on to tell us you pump 150 and 100 psi.
(what psi do you all use posted 03-02-2001 10:30 AM)
Interesting concept, use every size attack line ever made. 118 gpm out of one, 100 gpm, and 147 out of the other only 60 gpm out of one.
Kinda like carrying a 24', 28' 30, and 35' foot extension ladder. When do you know when to use one over the other. Some would say the 35 does all the jobs of a 24 or 28 or 30 footer.
When do you know when to pull the other lines and increase the flow 58 gpm, 18 gpm or 29 gpm??? Dang most folks would suggest one attack line diameter as a do everything option. Of course with such a wide variety of EPs you said you use, it doesn't matter what size hose you use, 1 3/4" will always out flow 2" at those indicated pressures.
Certainly a 205 gpm 1" line meets all the flows and is easier to move. As would a 1 1/2", 1 3/4" or 2" line, why all three??? A reasonable EP and one size line should work well.
Oh may I ask, have you ever used a high flow 1" line??
Like you said///You just have to know what you and your crews capabilities are and do a proper sizeup when deciding the size/type line.//
If you only had one size and realistic engine pressures you wouldn't have to worry about size would you? You know the 100 psi EDP you suggest on a 300 foot 2" line will not support the 1 1/8" tip you say you use. It won't support the TFT's either unless you are looking for flows of 60 gpm.
Being as you said, //I am the Dpeuth Chief for my dept and I am responsible for the drivers training program.// You are the right guy to ask right?? Speaking of "mentality" oh please explain all the sizes and really low pump pressures. Oh, just a thought, if you want to call me names, feel free to email me and leave the boards to something constructive.
That is slicing things pretty close.
/I get a kick out of your post. You would last about an hour on my department.
Oh I see, in your FD someone can state a fact that is full of holes and no one says anything? Wow what a group. I doubt I'd be kicked out I wouldn't belong to a zoo like that. Or is it the bosses can't defend their actions or decisions to the troops?
Pretty hard to respond to anything you say when you can't stay on topic or express a view.
I know you are more comfortable answering questions full of depth like in the forum what is your first line piece you responded //E-Junk//. But, Kinda hard to read your mind. You replied to what size attack lines do you use with two words, 1 3/4" and 2 1/2".
So let's see if we can get back on topic. What do you pump on those lines, what tips, how long are they?
If you don't agree with me and no one is asking you to, at least try to make a case for yor point of view, if you have one.
03-27-2001, 04:54 PM #36res7cueFirehouse.com Guest
By the way your last post appears you evidently did some research in my postings. I
If you did that much research on emergency services related topics you might actually help someone, not constantly degrade them and their respective departments.
Having said that, it will be the LAST time I drop to your level and reply to your negative, unproductive posts.
Please start posting to help our brothers and sisters.
03-28-2001, 10:15 AM #37FireLt1951Firehouse.com Guest
I find it very interesting that you do not present any information about yourself in these forums or your profile. I guess you like the fact that your anonimity hides your attacks on almost everyone in these forums. I think it's great that you are pure perfection. You have the ability to provide some constructive opinions but you carry it way to far on the attacks of others who also have valid and constructive opinions.
03-28-2001, 11:35 AM #38LHS*Firehouse.com Guest
Under profiles, there is a web page address with 600 photos, sops, books, video, etc that tells you everything about how we do whatever we do out here and my email address.
I'm sorry, we are not allowed to debate. Someone makes a post and the other person cannot question it? Suggest another method? Possibly a better approach? And what have you offered up on this topic other than a personal attack?
Read the profile.
03-28-2001, 11:16 PM #39FireLt1951Firehouse.com Guest
The information in the profile was not and has not been in there. Glad to see you updated it.
03-28-2001, 11:17 PM #40391HDFirehouse.com Guest
Bad idea? Any fire dept. that operated a John Bean Hi-pressure fog fighter, 850 psi pump pressure, two 30 GPM fog guns operating at around 650 psi, with a 435 gallon water tank, will tell you that these units effectively extinguished 95-98% of all fires they responded to. Why?
Because even today, this amount of fire response, was within the capability of these units. Back then, even if grandpa wore any type of protective clothing, it did not provide the protection of today's ensemble.
If the building was large and/or fully engulfed upon arrival (2-5% of all responses), the hi-pressure fog units were much like peeing in the dessart. However, some things never change, I have seen modern fire apparatus arrive at fully engulfed structure fires, only to begin attack with two 1 3/4" lines, flowing far less than what's needed to control it. Thousands upon thousands of gallons of water during many hours of battle are used, yet the building is a total loss, and everyone on the fireground is walking in water.
Using the old Royer's formula determines attack GPM for CONTROL of a fully engulfed structure fire, LxWxH divided by 100 equals GPM for 30 seconds. So if a building is 100'x100'x10', GPM required is 1,000, for a total of 500 gallons of water needed to darken the fire. The key is to apply the 500 gallons at 1,000 GPM when you arrive. Something I've found alot of firefighters simply do not understand.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and that is what this forum is for. America's fire service is entrenched in tradition. Sometimes one must "think outside of the box."
03-28-2001, 11:37 PM #41LT.MikeAFDFirehouse.com Guest
LHS......I just finished reading your departments "Fire Attack Handbook". No where did I read anything about high pressure-small diameter large flow hose. I did continuously read where a minimum 1-3\4" attack line is used. Could you please explain why your views are so different than the rest of your dept. Or have you written a new book that is not yet published on your website.
03-29-2001, 12:08 AM #42ignition_pointFirehouse.com Guest
Using a pentrating fog pattern on a fully involved structure might be of use yes, however the story changes completely when FF's enter a structure. Esp. around here, it can be a couple minutes ebfore a second engine arrives on scene, so you won't always be able to count on having proper ventilation going.
03-29-2001, 02:47 AM #43LHS*Firehouse.com Guest
Here are a few direct quotes from the fire attach handbook... you talk about.
Set-up 1 piercing nozzle.
Another member is told to bring the 6 piercing nozzle and a 1 line in
. He reminds the engineer that he wants compressed air foam in the 1 line and to
a 1 and 2 attack line and a blower are waiting at the front door.
. The 1 line with the piercing nozzle tip is inserted into the hall ceiling right where the imager says it is the hottest and starts blowing foam
. The 1 line is repositioned to an adjoining room
, a 50' roll of 1" hose is attached to the end of the attack line for overhaul.
A 1 line with a nozzle 60 to 125 gpm nozzle can then be used
. Use 1 with piercing nozzle to cut off extension.
A 1 line at 250 psi will allow minimum staffing to effectively attack a fire.
If you notice any sign of fuel leakage, immediately place a 1 line with the MEX nozzle with the pump at idle under the leak on the uphill side of the vehicle; allow it to run and spread foam throughout the area.
Gee I'm not sure I don't go along with the book. If you look at any of yor rigs you'll see three one inch preconnects ready to go.
03-29-2001, 08:56 AM #44ignition_pointFirehouse.com Guest
Not any of our's. Out of all of them, including the surrounding departments, the smallest connections (including pre-connects) are 1-1/2".
03-29-2001, 09:50 AM #45CorvinFirehouse.com Guest
I think the majority of the people in this forum would agree that your knowledge of fireflows and firefighting are strong. Your posts make it clear that you are intelligent and analytical, able to bring facts to bear that support your argument and that you have strong feelings about your position.
The reverse to that coin, is of course, whether you realize it or not - or care - other readers in this forum have found some of your posts less than fully congenial; particularly if they continue to disagree with you.
I think we can sum up the forum with the consensus that most of us remember the Bean high pressure fog type units and agree that they did not have enough GPM to attack well developed, high BTU output fires.
That a number of technologies, including CAFS and high pressure lines with foam can provide alternatives to 'straight water' fire attacks; however many of us do not have these available to us, have seen them not perform as advertised by vendors, do not feel there is enough background available yet on them.
That all other things being equal, a larger diameter line flows more water than a smaller diameter line and unless there is a huge weight savings you might as well just carry the line that has a greater range of abilities. I refer to the ladder example you posted:
LHS///Kinda like carrying a 24', 28' 30, and 35' foot extension ladder. When do you know when to use one over the other. Some would say the 35 does all the jobs of a 24 or 28 or 30 footer.
I'm sure that you won't necessarily agree with my view, but I hope you appreciate my time.
[This message has been edited by Corvin (edited 03-29-2001).]
03-29-2001, 10:59 AM #46BIG PAULIEFirehouse.com Guest
LHS (Larry)Speaking as a friend of yours and someone who has learned so much from you over the years ( since 1981), I am respectively requesting that you LIGHTEN UP!!!. The people that you attack, and you do know that you are attacking them , could really benifit from your knowledge as I have.Quite frankly you are not able to help in there education because you **** people off.If you treated me like that over the past 20 years I would not have been able to learn from you because I would have not put up with your brow beating.I don't know what has gotten in to you but I can say that you have changed. You seem to be at war with every one.Go back to the Larry that I have known in the past and make a difference for the folks on this forum. Allow them to soak up all that you have to offer.
03-29-2001, 05:34 PM #47LT.MikeAFDFirehouse.com Guest
LHS....I figure if your going to quote from the book that I might as well join you.
"Set-up 1 piercing nozzle."
Our 1" piercing nozzles use a 1-1\2 inch hose coupling. So it can be supplied with 1-1\2 or 1-3\4 hose.
"Another member is told to bring the 6 piercing nozzle and a 1 line in"
I dont know where this come from, but I figure it is to attach to the piercing nozzle and not to use as a hand held attack line.
"He reminds the engineer that he wants compressed air foam in the 1 line and to "
Here again I have no idea where you drug this one out.
"a 1 and 2 attack line and a blower are waiting at the front door. "
". The 1 line with the piercing nozzle tip is inserted into the hall ceiling right where the imager says it is the hottest and starts blowing foam"
This one said nothing about the one inch line just the 1" piercing nozzle.
". The 1 line is repositioned to an adjoining room"
What about this one did you just rewrite it or what.
", a 50' roll of 1" hose is attached to the end of the attack line for overhaul. "
Sure, any day, much rather use a small line for overhaul. "But initial attack, through the front door".
"A 1 line with a nozzle 60 to 125 gpm nozzle can then be used "
"Use 1 with piercing nozzle to cut off extension. "
Didnt see this one either.......
"A 1 line at 250 psi will allow minimum staffing to effectively attack a fire."
Sure, if your not physically able to handle the larger lines might as well use a garden hose.
"If you notice any sign of fuel leakage, immediately place a 1 line with the MEX nozzle with the pump at idle under the leak on the uphill side of the vehicle; allow it to run and spread foam throughout the area."
Absolutely......perfect opportunity to use your 1" line.
"Gee I'm not sure I don't go along with the book. If you look at any of yor rigs you'll see three one inch preconnects ready to go. "
Not on anything but our brush truck!!!!!!
While I'm here I thought I would go ahead and add a few more little things. After researching your little web site, I noticed that very rarely did your little book mention the use of 1" lines. It never said they could be used for initial fire attack, unless you had minimum staffing. I doubt very seriously that any of your firefighters would enter a fully involved structure with this 1" line.
You sound like a very intelligent man, so why would you post something for newer FF's to read that might get them hurt. Not many people around here see things like you and for that I am so grateful.
Here is the exerpts from your little book where does it condone the use of 1" attack lines for manned hand lines?
10. Protect residents with hose streams, 1 3/4 minimum, and/or throw
ladders; protect stairways.
11. Cover exposures, 1 3/4, Bomb Line or Deck Gun. Get in front of the
16. Assign attack crews, (3 personnel on 1 3/4 line for attack)
22. Advance line, 1 3/4 minimum, above fire to cut off extension, check
attic. Refer to Attic Fires on page 4.
23. Set-up 1 piercing nozzle.
24. Advance line, 1 3/4 minimum, beside fire to cut off extension.
Attic Fires - 1 of 2
9. Cover exposures, 1 3/4, Bomb Line or Deck Gun. Get in front of the
15. If visible flame is showing from roof, pull attack line, 1 3/4 minimum
or use Deck Gun.
22. Pull back-up line, 1 3/4 minimum
18. Get pike poles, plaster hook and attic ladders to uppermost floor. Be
sure that an 1 3/4 line is in place.
6. Pull one 1 3/4 or larger attack line.
13. Pull additional lines as needed. (May be smaller than 1 3/4)
14. Take attack line, 1 3/4 minimum(foam on), to the stairway and hold
17. Pull back-up line, 1 3/4 minimum, to stairway door
11. Pull exposure lines. 1 3/4, Bomb Line or Deck Gun.
17. Attack fire, 1 3/4 minimum, push fire from boat. (Note: 3 firefighters
on the first line.)
19. Pull back-up line, 1 3/4 minimum. Check for extension.
Flammable Liquid Fires
7. Place protective streams between fire and exposures, use 1 3/4, Bomb
Lines or Deck Guns
8. Protect exposures, with a 1 3/4 line or unmanned Bomb Line or Deck
15. Pull 1 3/4 line inside the home to protect interior garage entry door
and adjoining wall. Use the thermal imager to check for fire extension.
16. Pull 1 3/4 or larger line to the garage side door,
19. Pull back-up line, 1 3/4 minimum.
Note: When minimum staffing requires a quick, high-volume attack, a Deck Gun will generally bring a garage fire to its knees if straight stream is used. A 1 line with a nozzle 60 to 125 gpm nozzle can then be used for overhaul
Single-Story House Fires
10. Pull exposure lines. 1 3/4, Bomb Line or Deck Gun
16. Attack fire, 1 3/4 minimum, push fire from building. (Note: 3
firefighters on first attack line.)
18. Pull line, 1 3/4 minimum, to act as back-up and search attic for
extension via laser. Use 1 with piercing nozzle to cut off extension.
Multi-Story House Fires
10. Pull exposure lines. 1 3/4, Bomb Line or Deck Gun
17. Attack the fire by pushing the fire out of the building, 1 3/4 minimum.
On heavy fire situations use three personnel on each line
20. Pull line, 1 3/4 minimum, above the fire to check for extension
21. Pull a back-up line, 1 3/4 minimum
Mobile Home Fires
6. Position dry attack line, 1 3/4 minimum, between doors
9. Protect exposures, 1 3/4, Bomb Line or Deck Gun
17. Pull back-up line, 1 3/4 minimum.
8. Protect exposures, 1 3/4, Bomb Line or Deck Gun
9. Hit the fire with attack line. 1 3/4 minimum, or Deck Gun in spray
11. Pull attack line, 1 3/4 minimum.
Shopping Center Fires
18. Attack seat of fire, 1 3/4 minimum. (For large volume fires use the
21. Extend line, 1 3/4 minimum, to each adjoining store and search for
extension, including attic. If fire is in attic, See Attic Fires. (Pre-
position piercing nozzles for the inevitable.)
22. Pull back-up lines, 1 3/4 minimum.
Sprinkled Building Fires
7. Advance attack line, 1 3/4 minimum, into structure to finish off the
Structure Fires - General -
13. Water between life and fire, 1 3/4 minimum,
20. Assign attack crews, pull line 1 3/4 minimum.
23. Advance a line, 1 3/4 minimum, above fire.
15. 1 3/4 hose if the minimum size attack line for crew protection and fire attack
15. 1 3/4 hose if the minimum size attack line for crew protection and fire attack
24. 1 3/4 attack lines, Bomb lines, or Deck Guns should be used for exposure protection.
31. Use the laser for fire extension and initial search of victims. The 1 line with a piercing nozzle should be utilized when the laser is being used for extension of fire. Dont wait for the fire to get worse to put it out
39. A 1 line at 250 psi will allow minimum staffing to effectively attack a fire.
Looks like you use the 1-3/4 line most of the time......huh.
Respectfully yours...........Mike Sparks
03-29-2001, 07:14 PM #48LHS*Firehouse.com Guest
The fire attack guide is a Word document. Click on edit, then find. Type in what ever word you are looking for. You'll see where all the posts came from. Seeing as how the local FD doesn't own any 1 1/2" or 1 3/4" hose it will be pretty hard to pull a line that size. The choices are 1" or 2" for interior attack. The guide says 1 3/4" or 150 gpm in the general rules for all fires. So gpm not hose size is our guide. It even states flows of 95 to 220 gpm through a 1" line are possible and what pressures are needed.
//. I doubt very seriously that any of your firefighters would enter a fully
Linda like Charlotte we've been doing it for years. It is flow not line size that matters to the fire. I'm just pointing out the lfows are possible, the fires go out ad they are easier to move. Heck, San Francisco use 3" handlines. Odds are evey size hose and every nozzle and pump combination is working somewhere.
//so why would you post something for newer FF's to read that might get them hurt.
Gee, younger firefighters buy hose, set engine pressures? I thought that is what officers do, at least out here. Maybe if they don't have adequate staffing, no hydrants, and are not fully certified FF2's they should all do exterior attacks?
Does small town USA get enough fires per man to make interior attacks? Or are all fires training? Who does get enough fire activity to be experienced???
//Looks like you use the 1-3/4 line most of the time......huh.
It expresses the option of minimum hose diamter or flow.
If 1" can't handle it we pull a 2" line at 335 gpm.
I wonder why Charlottes fires go out using boosters??
03-30-2001, 01:56 PM #49rsq2Firehouse.com Guest
Go have your argument somewhere else. All you 2 are doing is fighting back and forth. The question was high pressure yes no. Fallon and wherever else no pg no rig size no high pressure. If you want to argue call each other and have a ball otherwise shut up
04-01-2001, 07:20 PM #50BIG PAULIEFirehouse.com Guest
Rsq2, Iam with you, who needs to hear that crap. This is a debate and education forum not a boxing match. Maybe if we don't acknowledge any more it will go away.
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