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Thread: High Pressue

  1. #21
    SBrooks
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Mr. Stevens:

    Due to the fact that your isoslayer.com doesn't have the detailed specifications on your pieces, feel free to change them as you see fit. I am 100% sure that you have, in the past, stated that they could do 80 mph, that they had 350 hp, and that they had a front drive axle. Five years ago, every AWD apparatus had 350 hp or less (outside of ARFF). Only recently have I seen some AWD apparatus having 470 hp. You've also claimed to have a 45 degree cramp angle, again, not likely with a front driving axle.

    80000 miles / 5 years / 400 calls a year = 40 miles a call. You say most of your calls are answered in less than 6 minutes, so I guess your rigs can go 40 miles / 2 ways / 6 minutes * 60 minutes / hour = 200 mph? You say that the 18000 residents in your county are spread out over 250 sq miles of desert, your trips shouldn't be more than 12 miles to the edge.

    You brag about being able to change your discharge valves without tools in a minute or two, can your members change your suspension bushings without a tool in the same time? I doubt it. Unlike Fallon, our routes are a bit more complex than "left or right out of the station and straight till you see the column" Try making a few turns and see how fast that walking beam rear suspension eats both tires and suspension components.

    Nothing special in PG? I'm not even going there. Try volume. Try largest combination. I'll leave the rest for all the PG members on the forum.

    ISO Credit? I have a copy of the FSRS right here. There is nothing in there about giving credit for cafs. Nothing that says "the calculated NFF can be multiplied by a factor of X for departments that use a working CAFS system" the only credit for cafs i found is on the FSRS equivalencies sheet, that counts cafs as a foam nozzle. Can I get credit for CAFS (other than the nozzle) in Maryland?

    The theme amongst the CAFS reports i've read seems to be that CAFS is DEFINITELY better at exposure protection (due to the ability to make dry foams) however the all recommend using WET foams for interior attack, which aspirating nozzles, etc, can make. You got a deal at $20k, most pay more.

    Don't you sit on the 1901 commitee? Bring back the real ground ladder requirements. Delete the requirement for guage, drain, etc per discharge.

    You get 90 gpm water & 45+ cfm air through a 1 3/4" line? With a 50' 1" section? The CAFS experts i've talked to say the most you get through a 1 3/4 line is around 70 gpm 70 cfm. Go to the 2" or 2 1/2" line and lose the lighter weight advantage. With 100' 1 3/4" line backed by 100' 2", I could get a 300 gpm plus foam line without pumping more than 250 psi at the pump. My 300 gpm line on an aspirating nozzle, could get as much as 10:1 expansion, which would end up being like a 300 gpm 360 cfm line, what you've said are good flows for a master stream. So I wouldn't get the ability to use a fog pattern, but, gee wizz, i doubt i'd need it. Then again your fallon rigs have smoothbores on them, too, or do you only use them as pistol grip handles? Oh, and if the compressor goes, wait, no compressor, if the proportioner goes, i've still got an extremely effective water line.

    On a 1 1/2" line with a TFT bubble cup, i'd get something like 95 gpm 114 cfm, and an availiable fog pattern. So I'd lose some foam quality, probably something like you'd get putting CAFS through a foam nozzle. As for the topic at hand...if i had a third stage pump i could get 95 gpm / 100 psi NP through 250' 1" and a reel at less than 400 psi discharge pressure. I'd be willing to use that, if I had a backup line coming behind me. I'd really be willing to use that if I had Class A foam and a Bubble Cup.

    I haven't seen any fires laugh at a 2 1/2 from the inside. I've see a few laugh at lines from the outside. I've seen a few pictures of fallon rigs spraying white stuff at a single, fully involved structure, miles from nowhere, proving nothing. Building a loss, no exposures, who cares?

    I'm 75% sure that you've stated the fallon rigs at 55' and the Mason rigs at 65'. Neither one would reach around here, especially when, despite your short jacks, you've got to lower your ground ladder racks to go at low angles off the side. How far do the ladder racks stick out? If you had parking problems there like we do here, they'd be a bigger problem than a jack that stuck out 4'.

    See, I started out mostly agreeing with you, but your winning personality put a stop to that.



    [This message has been edited by SBrooks (edited 03-22-2001).]


  2. #22
    LHS*
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    ///Due to the fact that your isoslayer.com doesn't have the detailed specifications on your pieces, feel free to change them as you see fit.

    Well the Spec page has been part of the webpage since day one. Feel free to call Spartan Motors, Detroit, or WS Darley. Do you need the fire department's phone number to, to verfiy things??? SOURCE for specs: http://www.geocities.com/Baja/Trails/6658/specs.html

    Here is what it say:
    1995 Spartan 10 man long four door air conditioned cabs with seating for 10 with 9 guys in air packs. Officer's facepieces have amplifiers built in. On structure fires the rigs commonly run with a crew of 8 to 10. Detroit Series 60 470 horse power engine with an Allison transmission with retarder. Top speed @90 mph. Fuel capacity allows runs of 450 miles. Nine batteries allow for alternator or belt failure. SOURCE: http://www.geocities.com/Baja/Trails/6658/specs.html

    //I am 100% sure that you have, in the past, stated that they could do 80 mph, that they had 350 hp, and that they had a front drive axle.

    100% sure huh? 350 hp...don't make me laugh. Front drive..yeah righ the cab sits right on the frame... If it isn't on the web page it ain't on the rig.

    // Five years ago, every AWD apparatus had 350 hp or less (outside of ARFF).

    They are not AWD. Why would they be?

    ///Only recently have I seen some AWD apparatus having 470 hp. You've also claimed to have a 45 degree cramp angle, again, not likely with a front driving axle.

    Once again, not AWD.

    //80000 miles / 5 years / 400 calls a year = 40 miles a call.

    Divided by four identical trucks = 10 miles a call or 5 miles each way. Assuming the rigs are not used for anything else. Add to that a bunch of 300 mile days going and returning mutual aid, trips to Reno 120 miles plus, lots and lots of driver training..you know CDL requirement out here for drivers…classes in San Jose, Sutter County, Sacramento, Seattle..yeah we take the rigs… the drive from the chassis builder to the apparatus builder to the ladder builder to the FD 6000 miles each. What do you get???

    So how about 3 miles x 1.7 = 35 mpg or average time 5.1 minutes at worst.

    //can your members change your suspension bushings without a tool in the same time?

    Gee when we change one out I'll let you know. You have a lot of suspension bushing problems where you are??

    ///Unlike Fallon, our routes are a bit more complex than "left or right out of the station and straight till you see the column"

    I guess that is why we have GPSD laptops in each rig to give verbal and moving map directions to the calls. Complex responses, go a few hundred miles in snow and ice into someone else’s territory and then tell us about complex.

    //Try making a few turns and see how fast that walking beam rear suspension eats both tires and suspension components.

    After 80,000 miles I think we'd know about that. We don't have a walking beam suspension. That would be a Mack or Hendrickson component. No tire problems here.

    //Nothing special in PG?

    Like I said I've fought fire there. You use water hose, paid and volunteers. Just like everyone else.

    //Try volume.

    Once again nothing special, to address volume lots of stations. Gee Philly has more volume than you, 1% of their calls are working structure fires the majority are crap like everyone else.

    //Try largest combination.

    So what? What does that have to do with anything? Get in the rig hold someone hand or shut off the bells and go home. I have the largest response area of any fire department. Whoppee!

    //ISO Credit? I have a copy of the FSRS right here. There is nothing in there about giving credit for cafs.

    I can't help it if your state won't apply for it.

    Here it is in full:

    E. COMPRESSED AIR FOAM SYSTEM (CAFS) 30%
    Compressed Air Foam System, when carried and used in the extinguishment of all structure fires 30%
    To be eligible for points for compressed air foam systems the following criteria shall be met:
     Apparatus meets general criteria in NFPA 1901 for use for structural fire fighting (Class A Pumper)
     Apparatus has a minimum 500 gpm fire pump
     Apparatus has a minimum 120 scfm air compressor, permanently mounted
     Apparatus has a minimum 2.5 gpm Class A foam concentrate pump
     Apparatus has a minimum 25 gallon foam tank for Class A Foam
     At least one apparatus equipped with CAFS unit must respond on all structure fires
     All applications of Class A Foam must be in accordance with manufacturer’s specifications
    CREDIT, up to………….6.5 points

    Speaking of ISO you all have an Class 4/9 we have a Class 1/3. What gives???????


    //You get 90 gpm water + 45+ cfm air through a 1 3/4" line?

    Everyday

    //With 100' 1 3/4" line backed by 100' 2", I could get a 300 gpm plus foam line without pumping more than 250 psi at the pump.

    We get 408 gpm out of a 150 foot 2" line when needed at the same EP.

    //My 300 gpm line on an aspirating nozzle, could get as much as 10:1 expansion,

    We can use a tip and get 200 plus expansion.

    /which would end up being like a 300 gpm 360 cfm line,

    Not really. You lose reach with the tip, your foam will not cling as long, you are using 2.5 times more concentrate to make the foam or hold its water as long.

    //what you've said are good flows for a master stream.

    A 2 inch tip with 260 feet of reach flowing 120 gpm.

    // So I wouldn't get the ability to use a fog pattern, but, gee wizz, i doubt i'd need it.

    Sure you could, use a fog tip with CAFS. It is done everyday.

    //Then again your fallon rigs have smoothbores on them, too, or do you only use them as handles?

    We see the job of government, the fire chief and the fire departme3nt to provide all the otions possible to the fire crews. So you bet every nozzle has the option of smooth bore or fog, water, low ex, medium x, cafs, gel and Class A or B foam with or without microbes or emulsifier. Just like the rig can squirt 10 gpm or 3000 gpm can lay no supply line or a mile.

    //Oh, and if the compressor goes, wait, no compressor, if the proportioner goes, i've still got an extremely effective water line.

    So do we, plus we have the other tips right in your hand.

    //On a 1 1/2" line with a TFT bubble cup, i'd get something like 95 gpm 114 cfm,

    Not much of a comparison to CAFS. Better than not using Class A. Of course you have to use 2 1/2" time the foam to make your bubble cup work versus a CAFs stream. SO you spend more.

    //and an availiable fog pattern.

    50% of the time or more we CAF through a fog tip.

    //So I'd lose some foam quality, probably something like you'd get putting CAFS through a foam nozzle.

    Not really.

    //I've seen a few pictures of fallon rigs spraying white stuff at a single, fully involved structure, miles from nowhere, proving nothing. Building a loss, no exposures, who cares?

    You're right, so when you arrive at a fully involved building do you go home? We left 45 minutes later, you'd have been there all day. So you are sure there weren’t any exposures on that fire???

    //I'm 75% sure that you've stated the fallon rigs at 55'

    Sir it has been on the web page for 3 years. Call Nova/Pierce or Darley to verify my numbers.

    //and the Mason rigs at 65'.

    Nope 62'

    // Neither one would reach around here.

    Sure they would. A 50 footer works in Balto County. Your ladders don't reach any of the 12 to 20 story buildings you have now. In many cases the 100 footer I was on wouldn’t reach the 4 story jobs do to set back and parking. But then again, my rigs were not built for your town. But we’d do just fine.

    //I started out mostly agreeing with you, but your winning personality put a stop to that.

    Your memory is questionable. What about the crack about me in PG County?? You going to come clean on that????

    Well you have not made your case on why our rigs wouldn’t work in your county. Or supported your memory claims. Fire pretty much go out anywhere in the US including
    PG no matter if a retired FDNY engine arrives, a low end off the back of the magazine rig or an awesome custom. In most cases our staffing is higher than yours 24/7, we bring more to the fire ground per rig, and do just fire with what we have. When we are in other communitie’s fighting their fires our rigs work just fine thanks.



  3. #23
    cfr3504
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Thumbs down

    No offense to any party involved, but do we really need another PG ****ing contest on these forums. Please take your differences elsewhere. Both of you are trained experienced fire fighters and neither is necessarily wrong. And for the record, I'm not going in a house with a line smaller than 1 1/2" flowing less than 95 gpm. That's just how I was trained , what I'm used to and what works for me. If you disagree that's ok too.

  4. #24
    jj1967
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Angry

    Can you extinguish a one room and contents fire with a 3/4" or 1" booster? Yes, it is possible. As a ladderman I've but out a queen sized matress with a can doing a primary search...would I recomend it? NO!

    We have flow meters on our engine. Guys are rarely flowing more than 95 gpm from a 2" line with TFT Nozzle. Does that mean we should go back to 1 1/2" and turbo jets? NO!
    Why not? Because sometimes bad things happen and you need 225 gpm RIGHT NOW. I won't put my life at risk with a booster line and plain old fashioned water.

  5. #25
    SBrooks
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    cfr3504, sorry about that. If y'all want to see me debate LHS*, start a forum and I'll join in, but until then...Sometimes i get carried away. You're probably right about the 95 gpm, but i actually tend to agree with LHS about the line size...it's irrelevant. if you could get 95gpm through a 1/2" line and still have enough pressure to get it out of the nozzle & onto the fire, why not? I personally wouldn't be averse to using a 250' 1" line with 95 gpm and a 100 psi nozzle. Heck, 60 gpm is probably good enough, especially with back up lines. In the UK, 60gpm is pretty standard.

    All the literature out there pretty much agrees that 80% of the water out of a nozzle is wasted, as far as firefighting is concerned. High pressure fog, class A foam, and cafs all reduce the amount of wasted water. Most sources say CAFS use up to 80% of the water effectively. If so, that 95 gpm * 20% = 19 gpm effective. 19 gpm / 80% = 24 gpm cafs (+12-24 cfm air). Class A foam alone might need 50+ gpm to be as effective as 95 gpm plain water.

    My personal hypothesis is that during most fires, sure, 80% of the water is wasted, but in really hot atmospheres, less water is wasted, giving you a "saftey buffer" of heat absorption. eg. small fire, 80% wasted; flashed room, 20% wasted. A 24 gpm/24 cfm cafs line might put out a wood crib fire more effectively than 95 gpm plain water, but when the sh*t hits the fan, the 95 gpm plain water can absorb more heat. (see paul grimwood's firetactics.com) Now, that being said, a 95gpm/95cfm cafs line will be a heck of alot more effective than a 95gpm plain water stream, but you're probably gonna need a 2 1/2" hose to get those flows. Although I've seen claims of 135 gpm / 135 cfm through a 1 3/4" line, more reputable sources say 70/70 is all you get at reasonable nozzle reactions, pump pressures, etc. (most compressors cant keep up with high flows above such pressures) perhaps as cafs becomes more mainstream, we'll see better compressors.

    Incidently, through 1" hose you can get approximately 25 gpm and 10 cfm, theoretically as effective as the 95 gpm plain water line.

    It's been my experience that most fires get out of hand not for insufficent flow (though it can occur) but more for flow in the wrong place or lack of flow at all. E.g. whatever line you've been using will probably work if you get it in there and use it! (temper this with common sense, sometimes you need to bring a bigger line)

    One more point of agreement with LHS* (though i disagree somewhat on the specifics) use as much of the hose and pump as you can...no point in lugging around a 1 3/4" line if you're only using 150 gpm...(unless it's a long 1 3/4" line), no point in lugging around a 2 1/2" line if you're only gonna flow 250 gpm (again, unless it's a long 2 1/2").

  6. #26
    ignition_point
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    I think that there are good reasons for having booster line, and good reasons for 1 3/4 attack lines, it's really just dependant on the situation. I would rather use a booster on a trash fire, or a small weed fire, maybe even a car fire... But inside of a structure I would rather have an 1 3/4. One *BIG* reason is the couplings. If you get lost inside a structure, and you come across a booster line, how do you know which way is out and which way is towards the nozzle? With the hose with couplings you can at least determine which way is out. The two types of hoses have their respectful duties...

  7. #27
    ngr1f3
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Red face

    NFPA states the minimum size for attack hose is 1 1/2. My State Bereau of Health and Labor Standards uses this as standard of practice, when investigating injury or death of fire personnel. I believe that high pressure booster 1 " will flow about 35- 45 GPM at up to 1000 PSI a great deal of PSI with little to no penetration distance.In fog mode there is a great risk to FF, victim, and melting everything in the building building if it is not properly vented. There is no accepted training curriculum to teach the use of high pressure in Maine. "MFT+E" IFSTA essentials does not cover it either. When in doubt stay away. Use accepted standards. I believe this is what the post was asking for, not to be confused with horse power tools and various unrelated items.

  8. #28
    LHS*
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    //NFPA states ...

    It also states all buildings will have a water supply, that everyone will be certified, that there will be 6 guys on a fire truck in your commercial area, that all your gear and trucks will meet standards, all buildings will meet all the codes, it says buildings will be sprinkled, you'll have a flow meter and a pressure gauge on your LDH discharges, that yo pumper even equipped with storz hard suction must have a rubber mallet, that you town needs half the ground ladders today as it did 20 years ago, all your extrication personnel will be certified ...

    So we just pick and choose the ones we like, I guess?? You know your state is not following a majority of the above.

    //I believe that high pressure booster 1 " will flow about 35- 45 GPM at up to 1000 PSI a great deal of PSI with little to no penetration distance.

    Simple math, "NFPA" formulas, and entire nations flowing more than that will show flows of 205 gpm out of the booster reel. Reach, it will be the same as any other 205 gpm stream. It isn't an issue of what you "believe" it is a fact. NFPA say the friction loss for a flow of 45 gpm is only 30 psi per 100 feet of hose. So unless that booster you are talking about is 2,550 feet long I'd say you are very wrong.

    According to NFPA, 95 gpm will travel 650 feet.

    Use soft 1" hose and both go a lot farther and the flows increase too!

    //In fog mode there is a great risk to FF, victim, and melting everything in the building building if it is not properly vented.

    Sorry "NFPA" says you'll vent before applying water. Use straight stream...you'll find it real hard to make steam.

    // There is no accepted training curriculum to teach the use of high pressure in Maine.

    I suppose there was one for imagers, fast teams, CAFS, accountability, etc.... Someone wrote them when there was a need..

    Gee what is high pressure? Is 250 psi high pressure? That is the EP for 95 gpm out of a 1" reel or soft hose wrapped on a reel.

    //IFSTA essentials does not cover it either.

    Or imagers, CAFS, quints, fast teams, accountability, etc.

    //When in doubt stay away.

    Yep if it ain't in the book don't do it. EVER! NFPA dioes cover booster hose, pumps etc. Every pump used for high pressure all 100 years worth meet NFPA. So throw the cow tag accountability tags away too?

    //Use accepted standards.

    All of them. Don't pick and choose.

    //I believe this is what the post was asking for, not to be confused with horse power tools and various unrelated items.

    Nice thing about a forum we can speak about anything we want. Yeah gallons put out fire, it doesn't matter what size hose is used to hit the fire.

    Oh by the way, NFPA says 1 1/2" hose and 95 gpm. Do you suppose there is a reason they called for the flow rate? Yeah. Because that is what is important.

    Now if we follow NFPA to the letter than that is the only size line and flow you should ever use. If we follow NFPA you can't have a gate valve on the side suction of your pumper. If we follow NFPA the largest fog nozzle will be 200 gpm. If you follow NFPA you have two labels on your fire truck that say, "Serious injury or death will result if..." Do you have those???

    Golly if we followed NFPA the worst ISO grade we could get is a CLass 1. Huh, we must not believe in ALL of NFPA because 77% of all FDs have a Class 6 or worse. And in Maine barely a handful have anything but a Class 9 beyond 1000 feet from a fire hydrant. So I guess only certain parts of NFPA count in your state. I guess you are all operating FD's out of jails??? Not following the State rules? Nah, nobody really cares now do they???

  9. #29
    ignition_point
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    LHS: Is there any specific reason why you only breakdown what others say and not make any of your own independant posts? You seem to breakoff in a tangent from the topic to cut others down, I'm still trying to figure out what your position is on this vary topic as I haven't found your position, clearly.

  10. #30
    LHS*
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    //I'm still trying to figure out what your position is on this vary topic as I haven't found your position, clearly.

    I'll go slow, use the smallest lightest line that will move the gallons per minute.

  11. #31
    res7cue
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Thumbs down

    LHS, Your postings are PATHETIC!

    ------------------

  12. #32
    LHS*
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Gee Res7cue,

    That was a very constructive post, right on topic, something that shares your views on the topic at hand. Let me guess you have nothing intelligent to share on the topic?

  13. #33
    ChiefMcD
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    LHS - I get a kick out of your post. I often wonder why you department hasn't kicked you off yet. You would last about an hour on my department.

  14. #34
    res7cue
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Thumbs down



    ------------------


    [This message has been edited by res7cue (edited 03-28-2001).]

  15. #35
    LHS*
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Gee Res7cue coming from someone who hasn't posted anything of substance about this topic or even expressed a view about boosters, flow, etc...who cares what you think about anything other than the topic on this forum? Oh nice web page for your Fayetteville PA fire department.

    Let's see if we can get you back on topic.

    You stated on another board that you use:
    2- 1.75" x 150' crosslays
    2- 2" x 200' crosslays
    1- 1.5" x 150' crosslay,
    1-300' 2"
    (posted 01-26-2001 02:14 PM What size preconnects do you prefer? )

    You go on to tell us you pump 150 and 100 psi.

    (what psi do you all use posted 03-02-2001 10:30 AM)

    Interesting concept, use every size attack line ever made. 118 gpm out of one, 100 gpm, and 147 out of the other only 60 gpm out of one.

    Kinda like carrying a 24', 28' 30, and 35' foot extension ladder. When do you know when to use one over the other. Some would say the 35 does all the jobs of a 24 or 28 or 30 footer.

    When do you know when to pull the other lines and increase the flow 58 gpm, 18 gpm or 29 gpm??? Dang most folks would suggest one attack line diameter as a do everything option. Of course with such a wide variety of EPs you said you use, it doesn't matter what size hose you use, 1 3/4" will always out flow 2" at those indicated pressures.

    Certainly a 205 gpm 1" line meets all the flows and is easier to move. As would a 1 1/2", 1 3/4" or 2" line, why all three??? A reasonable EP and one size line should work well.

    Oh may I ask, have you ever used a high flow 1" line??

    Like you said///You just have to know what you and your crews capabilities are and do a proper sizeup when deciding the size/type line.//

    If you only had one size and realistic engine pressures you wouldn't have to worry about size would you? You know the 100 psi EDP you suggest on a 300 foot 2" line will not support the 1 1/8" tip you say you use. It won't support the TFT's either unless you are looking for flows of 60 gpm.

    Being as you said, //I am the Dpeuth Chief for my dept and I am responsible for the drivers training program.// You are the right guy to ask right?? Speaking of "mentality" oh please explain all the sizes and really low pump pressures. Oh, just a thought, if you want to call me names, feel free to email me and leave the boards to something constructive.


    ChiefMcD

    That is slicing things pretty close.
    /I get a kick out of your post. You would last about an hour on my department.

    Oh I see, in your FD someone can state a fact that is full of holes and no one says anything? Wow what a group. I doubt I'd be kicked out I wouldn't belong to a zoo like that. Or is it the bosses can't defend their actions or decisions to the troops?

    Pretty hard to respond to anything you say when you can't stay on topic or express a view.

    I know you are more comfortable answering questions full of depth like in the forum what is your first line piece you responded //E-Junk//. But, Kinda hard to read your mind. You replied to what size attack lines do you use with two words, 1 3/4" and 2 1/2".

    So let's see if we can get back on topic. What do you pump on those lines, what tips, how long are they?

    If you don't agree with me and no one is asking you to, at least try to make a case for yor point of view, if you have one.

  16. #36
    res7cue
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Thumbs down

    LHS,

    By the way your last post appears you evidently did some research in my postings. I

    If you did that much research on emergency services related topics you might actually help someone, not constantly degrade them and their respective departments.

    Having said that, it will be the LAST time I drop to your level and reply to your negative, unproductive posts.

    Please start posting to help our brothers and sisters.


    ------------------

  17. #37
    FireLt1951
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    LHS

    I find it very interesting that you do not present any information about yourself in these forums or your profile. I guess you like the fact that your anonimity hides your attacks on almost everyone in these forums. I think it's great that you are pure perfection. You have the ability to provide some constructive opinions but you carry it way to far on the attacks of others who also have valid and constructive opinions.

  18. #38
    LHS*
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Fire LT

    Under profiles, there is a web page address with 600 photos, sops, books, video, etc that tells you everything about how we do whatever we do out here and my email address.

    I'm sorry, we are not allowed to debate. Someone makes a post and the other person cannot question it? Suggest another method? Possibly a better approach? And what have you offered up on this topic other than a personal attack?

    Read the profile.

  19. #39
    FireLt1951
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    The information in the profile was not and has not been in there. Glad to see you updated it.

  20. #40
    391HD
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Bad idea? Any fire dept. that operated a John Bean Hi-pressure fog fighter, 850 psi pump pressure, two 30 GPM fog guns operating at around 650 psi, with a 435 gallon water tank, will tell you that these units effectively extinguished 95-98% of all fires they responded to. Why?
    Because even today, this amount of fire response, was within the capability of these units. Back then, even if grandpa wore any type of protective clothing, it did not provide the protection of today's ensemble.

    If the building was large and/or fully engulfed upon arrival (2-5% of all responses), the hi-pressure fog units were much like peeing in the dessart. However, some things never change, I have seen modern fire apparatus arrive at fully engulfed structure fires, only to begin attack with two 1 3/4" lines, flowing far less than what's needed to control it. Thousands upon thousands of gallons of water during many hours of battle are used, yet the building is a total loss, and everyone on the fireground is walking in water.

    Using the old Royer's formula determines attack GPM for CONTROL of a fully engulfed structure fire, LxWxH divided by 100 equals GPM for 30 seconds. So if a building is 100'x100'x10', GPM required is 1,000, for a total of 500 gallons of water needed to darken the fire. The key is to apply the 500 gallons at 1,000 GPM when you arrive. Something I've found alot of firefighters simply do not understand.

    Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and that is what this forum is for. America's fire service is entrenched in tradition. Sometimes one must "think outside of the box."

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