LHS......I just finished reading your departments "Fire Attack Handbook". No where did I read anything about high pressure-small diameter large flow hose. I did continuously read where a minimum 1-3\4" attack line is used. Could you please explain why your views are so different than the rest of your dept. Or have you written a new book that is not yet published on your website.
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Thread: High Pressue
03-29-2001, 12:37 AM #41LT.MikeAFDFirehouse.com Guest
03-29-2001, 01:08 AM #42ignition_pointFirehouse.com Guest
Using a pentrating fog pattern on a fully involved structure might be of use yes, however the story changes completely when FF's enter a structure. Esp. around here, it can be a couple minutes ebfore a second engine arrives on scene, so you won't always be able to count on having proper ventilation going.
03-29-2001, 03:47 AM #43LHS*Firehouse.com Guest
Here are a few direct quotes from the fire attach handbook... you talk about.
Set-up 1 piercing nozzle.
Another member is told to bring the 6 piercing nozzle and a 1 line in
. He reminds the engineer that he wants compressed air foam in the 1 line and to
a 1 and 2 attack line and a blower are waiting at the front door.
. The 1 line with the piercing nozzle tip is inserted into the hall ceiling right where the imager says it is the hottest and starts blowing foam
. The 1 line is repositioned to an adjoining room
, a 50' roll of 1" hose is attached to the end of the attack line for overhaul.
A 1 line with a nozzle 60 to 125 gpm nozzle can then be used
. Use 1 with piercing nozzle to cut off extension.
A 1 line at 250 psi will allow minimum staffing to effectively attack a fire.
If you notice any sign of fuel leakage, immediately place a 1 line with the MEX nozzle with the pump at idle under the leak on the uphill side of the vehicle; allow it to run and spread foam throughout the area.
Gee I'm not sure I don't go along with the book. If you look at any of yor rigs you'll see three one inch preconnects ready to go.
03-29-2001, 09:56 AM #44ignition_pointFirehouse.com Guest
Not any of our's. Out of all of them, including the surrounding departments, the smallest connections (including pre-connects) are 1-1/2".
03-29-2001, 10:50 AM #45CorvinFirehouse.com Guest
I think the majority of the people in this forum would agree that your knowledge of fireflows and firefighting are strong. Your posts make it clear that you are intelligent and analytical, able to bring facts to bear that support your argument and that you have strong feelings about your position.
The reverse to that coin, is of course, whether you realize it or not - or care - other readers in this forum have found some of your posts less than fully congenial; particularly if they continue to disagree with you.
I think we can sum up the forum with the consensus that most of us remember the Bean high pressure fog type units and agree that they did not have enough GPM to attack well developed, high BTU output fires.
That a number of technologies, including CAFS and high pressure lines with foam can provide alternatives to 'straight water' fire attacks; however many of us do not have these available to us, have seen them not perform as advertised by vendors, do not feel there is enough background available yet on them.
That all other things being equal, a larger diameter line flows more water than a smaller diameter line and unless there is a huge weight savings you might as well just carry the line that has a greater range of abilities. I refer to the ladder example you posted:
LHS///Kinda like carrying a 24', 28' 30, and 35' foot extension ladder. When do you know when to use one over the other. Some would say the 35 does all the jobs of a 24 or 28 or 30 footer.
I'm sure that you won't necessarily agree with my view, but I hope you appreciate my time.
[This message has been edited by Corvin (edited 03-29-2001).]
03-29-2001, 11:59 AM #46BIG PAULIEFirehouse.com Guest
LHS (Larry)Speaking as a friend of yours and someone who has learned so much from you over the years ( since 1981), I am respectively requesting that you LIGHTEN UP!!!. The people that you attack, and you do know that you are attacking them , could really benifit from your knowledge as I have.Quite frankly you are not able to help in there education because you **** people off.If you treated me like that over the past 20 years I would not have been able to learn from you because I would have not put up with your brow beating.I don't know what has gotten in to you but I can say that you have changed. You seem to be at war with every one.Go back to the Larry that I have known in the past and make a difference for the folks on this forum. Allow them to soak up all that you have to offer.
03-29-2001, 06:34 PM #47LT.MikeAFDFirehouse.com Guest
LHS....I figure if your going to quote from the book that I might as well join you.
"Set-up 1 piercing nozzle."
Our 1" piercing nozzles use a 1-1\2 inch hose coupling. So it can be supplied with 1-1\2 or 1-3\4 hose.
"Another member is told to bring the 6 piercing nozzle and a 1 line in"
I dont know where this come from, but I figure it is to attach to the piercing nozzle and not to use as a hand held attack line.
"He reminds the engineer that he wants compressed air foam in the 1 line and to "
Here again I have no idea where you drug this one out.
"a 1 and 2 attack line and a blower are waiting at the front door. "
". The 1 line with the piercing nozzle tip is inserted into the hall ceiling right where the imager says it is the hottest and starts blowing foam"
This one said nothing about the one inch line just the 1" piercing nozzle.
". The 1 line is repositioned to an adjoining room"
What about this one did you just rewrite it or what.
", a 50' roll of 1" hose is attached to the end of the attack line for overhaul. "
Sure, any day, much rather use a small line for overhaul. "But initial attack, through the front door".
"A 1 line with a nozzle 60 to 125 gpm nozzle can then be used "
"Use 1 with piercing nozzle to cut off extension. "
Didnt see this one either.......
"A 1 line at 250 psi will allow minimum staffing to effectively attack a fire."
Sure, if your not physically able to handle the larger lines might as well use a garden hose.
"If you notice any sign of fuel leakage, immediately place a 1 line with the MEX nozzle with the pump at idle under the leak on the uphill side of the vehicle; allow it to run and spread foam throughout the area."
Absolutely......perfect opportunity to use your 1" line.
"Gee I'm not sure I don't go along with the book. If you look at any of yor rigs you'll see three one inch preconnects ready to go. "
Not on anything but our brush truck!!!!!!
While I'm here I thought I would go ahead and add a few more little things. After researching your little web site, I noticed that very rarely did your little book mention the use of 1" lines. It never said they could be used for initial fire attack, unless you had minimum staffing. I doubt very seriously that any of your firefighters would enter a fully involved structure with this 1" line.
You sound like a very intelligent man, so why would you post something for newer FF's to read that might get them hurt. Not many people around here see things like you and for that I am so grateful.
Here is the exerpts from your little book where does it condone the use of 1" attack lines for manned hand lines?
10. Protect residents with hose streams, 1 3/4 minimum, and/or throw
ladders; protect stairways.
11. Cover exposures, 1 3/4, Bomb Line or Deck Gun. Get in front of the
16. Assign attack crews, (3 personnel on 1 3/4 line for attack)
22. Advance line, 1 3/4 minimum, above fire to cut off extension, check
attic. Refer to Attic Fires on page 4.
23. Set-up 1 piercing nozzle.
24. Advance line, 1 3/4 minimum, beside fire to cut off extension.
Attic Fires - 1 of 2
9. Cover exposures, 1 3/4, Bomb Line or Deck Gun. Get in front of the
15. If visible flame is showing from roof, pull attack line, 1 3/4 minimum
or use Deck Gun.
22. Pull back-up line, 1 3/4 minimum
18. Get pike poles, plaster hook and attic ladders to uppermost floor. Be
sure that an 1 3/4 line is in place.
6. Pull one 1 3/4 or larger attack line.
13. Pull additional lines as needed. (May be smaller than 1 3/4)
14. Take attack line, 1 3/4 minimum(foam on), to the stairway and hold
17. Pull back-up line, 1 3/4 minimum, to stairway door
11. Pull exposure lines. 1 3/4, Bomb Line or Deck Gun.
17. Attack fire, 1 3/4 minimum, push fire from boat. (Note: 3 firefighters
on the first line.)
19. Pull back-up line, 1 3/4 minimum. Check for extension.
Flammable Liquid Fires
7. Place protective streams between fire and exposures, use 1 3/4, Bomb
Lines or Deck Guns
8. Protect exposures, with a 1 3/4 line or unmanned Bomb Line or Deck
15. Pull 1 3/4 line inside the home to protect interior garage entry door
and adjoining wall. Use the thermal imager to check for fire extension.
16. Pull 1 3/4 or larger line to the garage side door,
19. Pull back-up line, 1 3/4 minimum.
Note: When minimum staffing requires a quick, high-volume attack, a Deck Gun will generally bring a garage fire to its knees if straight stream is used. A 1 line with a nozzle 60 to 125 gpm nozzle can then be used for overhaul
Single-Story House Fires
10. Pull exposure lines. 1 3/4, Bomb Line or Deck Gun
16. Attack fire, 1 3/4 minimum, push fire from building. (Note: 3
firefighters on first attack line.)
18. Pull line, 1 3/4 minimum, to act as back-up and search attic for
extension via laser. Use 1 with piercing nozzle to cut off extension.
Multi-Story House Fires
10. Pull exposure lines. 1 3/4, Bomb Line or Deck Gun
17. Attack the fire by pushing the fire out of the building, 1 3/4 minimum.
On heavy fire situations use three personnel on each line
20. Pull line, 1 3/4 minimum, above the fire to check for extension
21. Pull a back-up line, 1 3/4 minimum
Mobile Home Fires
6. Position dry attack line, 1 3/4 minimum, between doors
9. Protect exposures, 1 3/4, Bomb Line or Deck Gun
17. Pull back-up line, 1 3/4 minimum.
8. Protect exposures, 1 3/4, Bomb Line or Deck Gun
9. Hit the fire with attack line. 1 3/4 minimum, or Deck Gun in spray
11. Pull attack line, 1 3/4 minimum.
Shopping Center Fires
18. Attack seat of fire, 1 3/4 minimum. (For large volume fires use the
21. Extend line, 1 3/4 minimum, to each adjoining store and search for
extension, including attic. If fire is in attic, See Attic Fires. (Pre-
position piercing nozzles for the inevitable.)
22. Pull back-up lines, 1 3/4 minimum.
Sprinkled Building Fires
7. Advance attack line, 1 3/4 minimum, into structure to finish off the
Structure Fires - General -
13. Water between life and fire, 1 3/4 minimum,
20. Assign attack crews, pull line 1 3/4 minimum.
23. Advance a line, 1 3/4 minimum, above fire.
15. 1 3/4 hose if the minimum size attack line for crew protection and fire attack
15. 1 3/4 hose if the minimum size attack line for crew protection and fire attack
24. 1 3/4 attack lines, Bomb lines, or Deck Guns should be used for exposure protection.
31. Use the laser for fire extension and initial search of victims. The 1 line with a piercing nozzle should be utilized when the laser is being used for extension of fire. Dont wait for the fire to get worse to put it out
39. A 1 line at 250 psi will allow minimum staffing to effectively attack a fire.
Looks like you use the 1-3/4 line most of the time......huh.
Respectfully yours...........Mike Sparks
03-29-2001, 08:14 PM #48LHS*Firehouse.com Guest
The fire attack guide is a Word document. Click on edit, then find. Type in what ever word you are looking for. You'll see where all the posts came from. Seeing as how the local FD doesn't own any 1 1/2" or 1 3/4" hose it will be pretty hard to pull a line that size. The choices are 1" or 2" for interior attack. The guide says 1 3/4" or 150 gpm in the general rules for all fires. So gpm not hose size is our guide. It even states flows of 95 to 220 gpm through a 1" line are possible and what pressures are needed.
//. I doubt very seriously that any of your firefighters would enter a fully
Linda like Charlotte we've been doing it for years. It is flow not line size that matters to the fire. I'm just pointing out the lfows are possible, the fires go out ad they are easier to move. Heck, San Francisco use 3" handlines. Odds are evey size hose and every nozzle and pump combination is working somewhere.
//so why would you post something for newer FF's to read that might get them hurt.
Gee, younger firefighters buy hose, set engine pressures? I thought that is what officers do, at least out here. Maybe if they don't have adequate staffing, no hydrants, and are not fully certified FF2's they should all do exterior attacks?
Does small town USA get enough fires per man to make interior attacks? Or are all fires training? Who does get enough fire activity to be experienced???
//Looks like you use the 1-3/4 line most of the time......huh.
It expresses the option of minimum hose diamter or flow.
If 1" can't handle it we pull a 2" line at 335 gpm.
I wonder why Charlottes fires go out using boosters??
03-30-2001, 02:56 PM #49rsq2Firehouse.com Guest
Go have your argument somewhere else. All you 2 are doing is fighting back and forth. The question was high pressure yes no. Fallon and wherever else no pg no rig size no high pressure. If you want to argue call each other and have a ball otherwise shut up
04-01-2001, 08:20 PM #50BIG PAULIEFirehouse.com Guest
Rsq2, Iam with you, who needs to hear that crap. This is a debate and education forum not a boxing match. Maybe if we don't acknowledge any more it will go away.
04-01-2001, 10:29 PM #51M GFirehouse.com Guest
The funny thing happening here is that when the routines we all are accustomed to are challenged, some people get very jumpy. I have to defend Larry, you don't have to like his ideas, nor use them but the simple truth is he isnt going to tell you what you want to hear. He is going to tell you what works and what is practical from his expierences, take it or leave it and stop sniveling. Take some time to look into his ideas and open your minds..some of it makes sense. I don't agree with all of it euther but Mr. Stevens cares about what he does and I respect him greatly.
The information presented herein is simply my opinion and does not represent the opinion or view of my employer(s) or any department/agency to which I belong.
04-03-2001, 02:29 AM #52cesmegi1Firehouse.com Guest
High Pressure does work in many situations.
The dept. I belong to utilizes Jim Bean. It works, if you know how and when to use it. Room and contents fire, no problem. fully involved dwellings? could be a problem. Many dept.s have steered away from true high presure. probably because it is a little more technique invoved. I'm still learning, every time I pull that line. car fire? Iwouldn't want to use any thing else. I'm not really good with all that math I read earlier, maybe I should be. all I know is if that fire looks to big for that high pressure line. We will not taking a chance. we will pull 1 3/4"
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