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Thread: High Pressue

  1. #1
    YFRMdc51
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Question High Pressue

    Howdy.
    To you and me, it's obvious. The use of High Pressure booster lines for interior attack is just a bad practice. However..some of the old timers on another department i am on ( we all know how fun these people are) insist that since high pressure was good back in the 30's....it's still good today. My question in this. Do you know of any good websites or articles i can find raw facts regarding this to make a powerpoint, or the like, presentation for the old timers. Thanks for all your help =)

    [This message has been edited by YFRMdc51 (edited 03-29-2001).]


  2. #2
    ignition_point
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    The essentials manual should cover it to some degree. About the only thing I can think of, good about high pressure booster lines for structural firefighting qould be the use of its fog, in a confirmed unoccupied, well involved structure, being attacked exteriorly, but how often does that happen? I would look into the properties of water (expansion of molecules when heated/surface area/heat absorbtion/retention), check out pressure/GPM charts most departments have (nozzle diameter/stream-hose diameter/type-length/friction loss-pressure/GPMs-- All ratio). It's all about GPM's, and not pressure always. GPM's v. BTU's is a great arguement to use, pressure doesn't play much of a role in that, other than getting the water to the seat of the fire. Hope that helps some.

  3. #3
    LHS*
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Grandpa had the right idea. Small hose and high pressure. There is not reason it wouldn't work fine today. Simply use a modern nozzle and modern hose and you can blow well in excess of 100 gpm through a 1 inch hose. If you want 150 you can do that too.

  4. #4
    ignition_point
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Heh, I have quite a funny joke, from a once assistant Chief of a local department, who pokes fun at the use of 1" booster lines. I'll go find it and get a copy on here, You'll like it . BTW, he is from the 'old school' of firefighting, and doesn't like booster hose anymore.

  5. #5
    ignition_point
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    I found it! This was writen by Jim Kron of the New Albany Fire Department. If any of you have taken any fireschool classes in Indiana, he is the founder of the "Dance with the Devil" class. Again, don't take this literally, he doesn't advocate booster hose!!! Anywho, without further adeu...

    Fast Attack 1" Booster Line

    The Attack Line of the Future - Here Today

    Advantages

    1. Saves Water - Return to station with most of your water still in the tank.

    2. Saves Time - Why spend your time breaking couplings, rolling, washing and drying larger hose. With the attack booster, just wipe, as you return to the reel.

    3. Saves Jobs - When people see most of the fires are major, almost all the houses burn to the ground, they will see how important we are.

    4. Saves Energy - Why spend all your time trying to move a larger line which is always to long or too short. Just pull-off what you need and go right to work

    5. Safer - Ever try to follow a larger line to safety, if you lose water the line goes flat. The fast attack booster always holds it's shape, making it easy to follow.

    6. Fast Attack - Why go inside-IT'S HOT AND SMOKY in there! Just place the super fog pattern in a window and let her rip!!

    7. Impressive - With larger size lines you run the danger of extinguishment in a few seconds, giving the appearance that the fire wasn't very big. Properly applied, the fast attack booster can keep that same fire going for hours. IMPRESSIVE!!!!

    8. Saves Manpower - Why waste manpower laying supply lines? With the fast attack booster set on 30 GPM a 1000gal. tank will last 30 minutes.

    9. Helps Home Owner - Ever had to stand-by helplessly as the family tries to find what they can salvage from a damaged home? Make it easy! With the booster, there will not be anything for them to find.

    10. Helps Builders - With larger lines, there is a good chance the home can be repaired, causing builders to lose money!

    Disadvantages (only two)

    1. Skin - You many notice a burning or redding of the skin. This is caused by STEAM and by upsetting the THERMAL balance. The pain will only last a few days.

    2. Death - You will lose a firefighter every now and then, BUT WE HAVE A LOT OF APLICATIONS!

    AVAILBLE AT FINER GARDENING STORES EVERYWHERE!

  6. #6
    Dalmatian90
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Cool

    It's all about GPM's, and not pressure always. GPM's v. BTU's is a great arguement to use, pressure doesn't play much of a role in that, other than getting the water to the seat of the fire.

    I probably wouldn't use that arguement with someone how knows the science & engineering behind fog attacks and/or high-pressure fog unless you want to have you have your hat handed to you.

    One gallon of water, for each degree in tempature rise, by definition, will absorb 1 BTU of heat.

    Let's your apparatus bay is at 65 degrees, so that's the temp of the water in your tank. And just about the temp of the water coming out of the end of your nozzle.

    212-65=147.

    If you're applying water at a rate the water gets as hot as possible, without turning to steam, it will absorb 147 BTUs per gallon.

    Let's say you're applying 250gpm to a fire, and most of it is running off the fire floor hot enough it's uncomfortable for you to be crawling in it -- that's probably around 150 degrees, or in other words it's absorbing 85 BTUs per gallon...after all if the water was actually coming off the fire at 212 degrees you'd be scalding anyone crawling in it (yourself), or underneath it's dripping on. 250gpm x 85BTUs = 21,250 BTUs/minute.

    Now let's take the same situation and fog it.
    Fog present smaller droplets to the fire, raising the possibility any given droplet is converted to steam.

    One gallon of steam, raised one degree from 212 degrees, turns into steam. Conversion to steam absorbs 970 BTUs. Let's take the same size fire you where controlling above with a 250gpm stream, and hit it with a conventional 100gpm fog stream. Let's even figure only half the water is converted to steam -- that'll absorb 50gpm x 970 BTUs = 46,000 BTUs plus another 5,000 BTUs or so for the other 50 gpm left on the floor. You're already sucking more than twice as many BTUs than the 250gpm solid bore.

    The Steam also has two additional advantages -- it physically displaces oxygen suffocating the fire, and it physically disrupts airflow in the fire area (ever blow out a candle?)

    High-pressure fog takes the principal one step further. Using the extra high pressure to produce a particulary fine fog, even more if not all the fog is converted to steam. Here, 30gpm x 970BTU = 29,100BTUs/min, or still more than a 250gpm line with most of the water running out the front door.

    The "Danger" in any of these isn't with the science or engineering behind them -- low pressure and high pressure fog both work. You can have hoses and pumps that safely handle the pressure. Fog WILL absorb more heat, more quickly, and put out most fires more effectively than solid bores.

    The "Danger" comes from mixing tactics.

    In recent years, many FDs have wanted to emulate "the big boys" like FDNY and other old, urban cities. These cities have significantly higher life hazards, and higher manpower levels, than your average suburban or rural fire district. There is nothing wrong with their tactics, they work well. But they are incompatible with using fog attack early on in the fire. So they advocate smooth bores.

    In many suburban and rural areas given lower life risks, lower staffing, and often poorer water supplies using fog streams is an effective way to put out the fire quicker. Stop the fire, stop the hazard. Then complete the search.

    Nor are fog operations dangerous on the interior. They are dangerous if you stay in an unvented room with the nozzle open -- you'll steam yourself. With a vented room, open up a narrow fog pattern (30 degrees) and push the fire out the vent hole -- it's an old fashion version of Positive Pressure Ventilation. With an unvented room, open the door, fog the ceiling quickly, and close the door as the steam starts to come out. Wait a few minutes, and repeat. The fire will smother out. Very little water is used, and the fire is no longer threatening to extend to other parts of the house.

    Using high-pressure fog, there is a caveat. It turns to steam SOONER than a low-pressure fog. This means you have to use more caution with it to avoid steaming yourself. It also may mean you have to get closer to the seat of a fire. While solid-bores and low-pressure fog aren't as efficient, you can use them further from the literally "hot zone." In this case, pressure indeeds reduces the penetration of the water -- it vaporizes before it might reach the seat (of course, it may very well smother the seat of the fire!)

    The "raw facts" really have to do more with TACTICS and how your department operates, because from a scientific standpoint, high-pressure fog is nearly 10 times as effective as smoothbores in terms of GPM, and more than adequate for most single, two, and three family residential buildings.

  7. #7
    LHS*
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Use a 1 inch high flow line keep the nozzle in the straight stream position if you choose to use a fog tip and/or have the best of everything.

  8. #8
    ignition_point
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Dalmatin90: no need for the long explanation, that's basically what I was saying :P

  9. #9
    George Wendt, CFI
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Think about what the living room looks like in some of the old Lucy reruns on Nick at Night. What do you see? Cotton, wood, wool, etc. Look around your living room what do you see? Plastics, plastics, plastics. You are talking about a heat release rate probably 5-10 times higher than 30 years ago. That is why we don't use high-pressure anymore. Pressure doesn't mean squat. A gallon of water can only absorb so much heat.

    You also don't see urban departments using high-pressure fog. Hell, the trens now is to go to larger attack lines like 1 3/4" and 2"! High-pressure fog is a bad and dangerous idea.

  10. #10
    George Wendt, CFI
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Think about what the living room looks like in some of the old Lucy reruns on Nick at Night. What do you see? Cotton, wood, wool, etc. Look around your living room what do you see? Plastics, plastics, plastics. You are talking about a heat release rate probably 5-10 times higher than 30 years ago. That is why we don't use high-pressure anymore. Pressure doesn't mean squat. A gallon of water can only absorb so much heat.

    You also don't see urban departments using high-pressure fog. Hell, the trens now is to go to larger attack lines like 1 3/4" and 2"! High-pressure fog is a bad and dangerous idea.

  11. #11
    D.C. Kron
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Wink

    Since my name has already be brought into this topic, I'll add my 2 cents worth.
    This is my oppinion, based on many live burns every year.
    ANYONE who advocates the use of anything less than an 1 3/4" hoseline for interior fire attack is a danger to themselves and anyone around them.
    Give me the flow of a "good quality" 1 3/4" line, and yes there is a difference, and I'll have most residential room & content fires out in 5 - 6 seconds - with little stean being generated.
    Anything less is like going Bear hunting with a cap gun.
    Jim Kron (Dance With the Devil)
    New Albany Fire Dept

    ------------------
    Asst Chief Jim Kron

  12. #12
    LHS*
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Gee,

    My mistake I thought it was gpm that put put fire not hose diameter.

    So many FD's are pumping 100 to 150 psi on a 1 3/4" line. A bunch are in the 100 to 120 psi range. They aren't moving gpms. Unless you are in the 200 psi EDP range you aren't either.

    So a 125 gpm 1 3/4" is superior to a 160 gpm 1" line??? One is gonna get there quicker.

    Question, Two lines flowing the same gpm, which one wins???

  13. #13
    ignition_point
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Mr. Kron! I had no idea that you were a member of this board . First I wish to apologize bring your name into something such as this, if you had not wishd it to be. Second, I see it nessecery to thank you for the great Dance With the Devil course you put on last August at the New Albany Fire School. If I were eligble to take the course over again, I would in a heart-beat. By the way, I attended the Jasper Fire School a couple weeks ago, taking the auto extrication course, your class was the talk of the group . Some of the people who were in my class took the same August course, and were very pleased with the experience/knowledge gained. I think that is a testiment to the great job you and the rest of the instructors are doing for us inexperienced firefighter's. Keep up the good work!

  14. #14
    Eng522ine
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    I think I'll stick with 1 1/2" (or bigger) for anything with a foundation, no matter how much sense it makes on paper to use anything smaller. I love the booster line for vehicle fires, brush fires, dumpsters, and the like. Nothing personal but, I think I'll stick with my own personal experience to pick the best line and that experience tells me that if it's a house fire I'm not pulling a rubber hose.

  15. #15
    Matt
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Geetings.

    I am usually a passive reader of the forums here, but after reading this one I have to say my piece.

    After reading Larry's posts, I have determined that Larry fights alot of fires on paper, instead of on the street.

    I am wondering from some of the things you say, if you have even been on the end of a working hoseline INSIDE a structure fire.

    Some of these ideas you come up with are humerous at best.

    I can't believe I am actually reading what I'm reading.

    Advocating a BOOSTER LINE for an attack on a structure fire???

    I have been in the fire service for almost 20 yrs now. Paid and Volunteer. I have taken my share of lines and nozzles into building fires including boosters, and I am telling you your crazy and irresponsible to stretch or instruct anyone, to take that size line into a working structure fire.

    I see alot of young and inexperienced firefighters coming into a vocation thats main purpose is STILL fighting fires.

    Thats probably hard for some of you to digest, given all of the "vests" we have to wear today.

    Many of our younger members I'm sure, are reading these forums to gain knowledge, or provoke discussion for learning.

    And you are telling these people to take a booster line in a building fire???

    What are you thinking man???

    SSSShhhhhhhhhheeeeeeeeshhhhhhh hhhh

    Everyones actual fire load is way down.

    Nothing can take the place of expeirence and live fire training to teach our younger members the correct and "as safe as possible" way to fight fires.

    We must train train train.

    Chief Kron's idea about booster lines was a made up JOKE!! That was NOT to be taken seriously folks!

    I'm sorry Larry. I don't buy your booster idea, or very many of your other ideas for that matter.

    I sincerely hope no else does either, and tries what you are advocating here.

    This idea is about as good as painting fire trucks green, or changing what everyone in America knows as the "fire department" to calling it something different. (Article in Fire/Rescue magazine.)

    If you readers out there decide to try this, I hope you have nomex skin and your insurance is paid.

    A BOOSTER LINE???????????!!!!!!!

    Alrighteeeeee

    Matt.






  16. #16
    LHS*
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post


    Matt

    //Advocating a BOOSTER LINE for an attack on a structure fire???

    Golly I never said anything about booster line. Are you sure you are talking to the right person???

    //I have been in the fire service for almost 20 yrs now.

    I've only been in the service 26 years

    //Paid and Volunteer.

    Ditto and every rank.

    // I have taken my share of lines and nozzles into building fires

    Ditto.

    //including boosters,

    Not me I'm not that crazy enough to use low flow tactics,

    //and I am telling you your crazy and irresponsible to stretch or instruct anyone, to take that size line into a working structure fire.

    Didn’t you just say you did???

    So that would include the entire New Zealand and Australian fire service as being crazy??? They flow 75 to 100 gpm through their booster reels. Their construction is almost identical to ours. All their fires go out. Class One/Accredited Charleston uses reels a majority of time

    //I see alot of young and inexperienced firefighters coming into a vocation thats main purpose is STILL fighting fires.

    But rarely does.

    //Many of our younger members I'm sure, are reading these forums to gain knowledge, or provoke discussion for learning.

    Which is precisely why I posted what I said. You are not provoking discussion you are calling people names and attacking. Can you discuss intelligently? There is nothing new about 1 3/4" hose and so called high flows. I've been writting about that stuff in all the trade magazines since the early 80's and using it since the late 70's.

    //And you are telling these people to take a booster line in a building fire???

    Did you read that somewhere on these forums??? If so cut and paste the time and date. I never ever said that. But please prove me wrong. However you did say you used booster reels inside burning buildings. That was you not me, remember??

    No, in this little fire department we've been using 1" fire hose for structural fire attack for at least 6 years. It works well sometimes it is a 50 foot stinger on the end of a 2 inch line and other times it is just one inch hose. Either way it is 1". We can flow from 100 gpm to 220 gpm. We use a 50 to 250 gpm combo tip with a 50 psi tip pressure rating. We are working with a line that weighs 1/4 what a 1 3/4" line weighs advances well and kicks tail. It saves our firefighters backs. We blow foam and or gel through it as needed as well. If there is something bettter I'd love to see it. All of our fires go out quickly, knockdown a room in 5 seconds anytime.

    Ya know what? We can burn a 1200 sq foot duplex using a 95 gpm 1 ½” water line and 750 tank and on the other side a 1” line at 10 gpm with CAFS. The 1 ½” line runs out of water and the rooms all reflash and the CAF line puts the fire out with less than 1/8 of a tank of water.

    Funny thing about booster, in many areas of Europe 1/2 inch attack lines with 1500 psi EDP's and American nozzles are quite common. They work well.

    //What are you thinking man???

    That flow, not hose size is what matters. So let's talk about flow. The ideal flow rate in the smallest package makes the most sense to me. Our 3" inch hand lines have 600 gpm nozzles. We can blow 400 gpm out of a 2 inch handline. But who the heck is taking on fires that need that kind of flow? If we needed it is there preconnected in many more options on all our rigs than I am sure you employ.

    Most of our fires are in homes built to code and certainly don't require even 100 gpm. A 20 by 30 foot room needs what 48 gpm according to the Iowa State formula for 30 seconds. Add Class A foam or CAFS, yes all of our rigs do both plus gel or Class B foam and how much of an application rate do we really need. So we double the flow rate instead of a 30 second knockdown we are looking at 7 seconds, at 200 gpm 2 seconds for the same room. How many 20 x 30 foot rooms do you see in the average house? You know a 600 square foot room? An average bedroom needs a whopping 8 gpm for 30 seconds.


    //Everyones actual fire load is way down.

    Is it?

    //Nothing can take the place of expeirence and live fire training to teach our younger members the correct and "as safe as possible" way to fight fires.

    We probably do as many live burns as anyone in the US, we have more structures than we have time to burn, we’ve even burned down entire towns, and you? Experience huh? Well just about no one has that anymore based upon call volume. Philly FD one of the busier departments averages ½ an initial attack a month per engine company. Pretty much the same level as everyone else.

    //We must train train train.

    And the training must be based on things that make sense. If you are suggesting everyone use 1 ¾” hose FDNY style, then you better be running 4 engines and 2 ladders on a call with crews of 6 on each and they all better be there in 6 minutes. When you deploy a 2 ½” line will you commit two to 3 engines company crews to advance it like them? DO you vent above and in front of your attack lines like them? If not I’d suggest you match your tactics to the staffing and reality of your FD. How many times have we heard on these forums daytime staffing is marginal? Too many. You bet I’ll equip our firefighters with a line that has the flow and can be moved and more importantly withdrawn quickly. Anything else is working for the other side.

    //Chief Kron's idea about booster lines was a made up JOKE!! That was NOT to be taken seriously folks!

    No matter how much water it would flow?? Even one that flows 183 gpm wouldn’t be an option, way more than what 90% of the fire service flows with 1 ¾” hose?? You’d even support a 1 ¾” line flowing 100 gpm over a 200 gpm 1” line eh??? If there is magic in the hose not related to flow please let me know what it is so I can buy some.

    ///I'm sorry, I don't buy your booster idea, or very many of your other ideas for that matter.

    That’s nice up until this post I never said squat about booster lines now did I???? As far as my other ideas that is a pretty global statement. Care to be specific, you know like you said earlier discuss. Hmmm let’s see? SO you don’t buy:

    Returning 13 times your fire department budget to the taxpayers every year?

    Super large water level lights on all rigs on all sides?

    Exceed the fire flows requirements of every building in our 5000 square mile fire district with or without hydrants?

    Carrying as many long (400’) attack lines as short (200’)?

    Clean up with a broom not a mop using CAFS?

    Use a drill and a piece of wire instead of a bunch of pry bars and lock up when you are done on all metal frame commercial doors in a concrete frame(oh IFSTA says avoid the door)?

    Getting a lift though soft hose up to 400 feet from the rig with as much as a 100 foot lift?

    Knowing the location of every member on the fire ground and his name and being able to find them with transponders?

    Having a thermal imager for every crew, imagers on the cab roof to see through smoke and darkness with headup displays for the driver and officer and determine where the fire is in the building from the street, imagers on the tip of ladders, having command monitor all members by watching what they are doing?

    Having headsets for the engineer to wear connected to a portable radio?

    Videoing all calls, both on IR and color TV and sound and radio traffic inside and out as the fire occurs and as each rig arrives.

    Hours upon hours at the drill field at live fire drills?

    Assigning every member a portable radio?

    28 hours of training per member per month?

    Getting a new fleet of fully equipped apparatus with everything mounted at the factory every 7 years?

    Volunteers staffing fire stations 24/7?

    Everyone having their own air pack and two sets of turnouts?

    Have all your floodlights preconnected so you can see on the way in?

    Being able to deploy hydraulic cutters, spreaders and rams, tripod lights, air bags, air chisels, sawzalls, cord lights, wizzer saws, in less than 15 seconds without hooking up a thing or starting a motor?

    Having a complete rehab area in the cab of all apparatus not just on a special rig?

    Your against mobile daycare for firefighters kids so the firefighter can come fight fire?

    Drafting with one firefighter in less than 15 seconds through 25 feet of hard suction?

    Putting out 4000 gallon flammable liquid tankers off tank water?

    A majority of the time the fire truck here doesn’t even slow down to lay a supply line, are you against that?

    Using piercing nozzles and portable sprinkler systems to stop running attic fires?

    Having current prefire plans for every building in your community in the cab that come up when dispatched?

    A complete standardized fleet where every rig is identical, where every control is the same and every compartment carries the same thing?

    Against color coding and labeling equipment?

    Against pre-calculating all hydraulics so no math is ever needed?

    Are you against pump and roll fire apparatus that can cover 60 homes per load of water??

    Are you really against designing apparatus without pump panels?

    If any firefighter given 3 minutes and no tools can change out any valve on the fire truck avoiding a one week stay at maintenance?

    You are against residential sprinkler systems?

    Against sprinkling all buildings over 1 story in height or all public assemblies and following the most recent version of the fire code?

    Against color coding hydrants for flow and main size?

    Replacing all your breathing apparatus every 5 years?

    Lock boxes on all commercial builds and a shunt trip, gas shutoff..all located at the FDC…plus LDH fittings on sprinkler systems located within 25 feet of a hydrant?

    Differentially corrected GPS for all apparatus that tells you how to get to the call, has a moving map display, shows all companies responding and indicates when they will arrive???

    Are you against simplification?

    Are you against sharing what you’ve done with others so they can get millions to do whatever they please as well?

    Those are the things we live with here and fight fire with and some of the crazy ideas I get to do every month.

    //I sincerely hope no else does either, and tries what you are advocating here.

    Well let’s get down to basics. There is no assurance a 1 ¾” inch line will flow anymore than a booster or 1 ½” line unless it has the right nozzle, comes off the right discharge and is pumped at a high enough discharge pressure. Fornell was right on, that almost no one is pumping the pressures needed for high flows. As far as my ideas, when I need high flows, you can’t even touch us. It ain’t just the hose it is all the other parts that make the flow thing happen. In fact I can flow more with 1 ½ at the same pressures as many makes of 1 ¾” hose.

    //A BOOSTER LINE???????????!!!!!!!

    Once again before you tell the world I’m talking about booster lines prove where I am advocating it. You might want to: 1) slow down and 2) read what is written, 3). Understand what is written and 4). Then reply.

    We don't run with the crowd. I don’t write about things I don’t employ in my own FD. If we did we wouldn't be in our third decade of using thermal imagers, now would we? I doubt we’d have a mile of 5 inch hose on each engine and ½ mile on all ladder companies. We wouldn’t carry 2000 gallons of water on a ladder truck. We wouldn’t average 8 firefighters per fire truck. We wouldn't have radio transmitting PASS devices and firefighter locators for all members. You think we’d have computers on all our trucks if we just did the norm? Our big water drill which uses just one rig involves laying two 5 inch supply lines, flowing 3000 gpm in 3 minutes through four master streams with a crew of 4 in 3 minutes is pretty basic isn’t it? Heck we don’t even leave a hydrant man we are so conventional. All of our traffic lights turn green when the fire truck approaches. All hydrants have quick couples. We can shuttle 3500 gpm without any mutual aid. I bet we wouldn't be an ISO Class 1 VOLUNTEER fire department either. We spend a bit of time thinking about the best way to do things and then do it. We discuss and teach not tell.


  17. #17
    SBrooks
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    It must be nice to live in his world.

    If he drove one of his rigs over here and parked it in a firehouse, would it work?

    Probably not, but then they weren't built for here, they were built for a sparsely populated desert community.

    Could we use some of his ideas? Sure.

    Do we need a 2000 gallon tank on something that runs 50%+ medical calls. Not when there's a hydrant on every corner.

    Do we need a roof mounted imager? Probably not as much as they do out west.

    Could we use a TIC for each crew? It'd be nice, but typically we don't have enough men to carry all the other equipment we need. I'd settle for one or two for each of the trucks & squads.

    Could we use a 400' bumper line? Proabably not, there's not always 25' to pull it out. But hey, kentland uses 150' to great effect.

    Do we need to flow 600 gpm through a handline? Not hardly. But it'd be nice to be able to get a monitor pipe in service that fast, though I'd rather concentrate on sending an attack line through the front door.

    Would a 55' ladder/boom reach? Nope.

    Would CAFS or Class A foam help us? Almost Assuredly, though the jury's still out on exactly how.

    Do we need a coffee maker and a snack bar on every engine? No. But then there are probably more 7-11's in our response areas than there are in his entire county.

    Do we need to color code every line? No but some do anyway.

    Do we need to precalc pump pressures? Don't kid yourself on this one, guys.

    Would it be nice to issue 2 sets gear, scba, radio, and Grace Pass to everyone? yes.

    Would it be nice to pull a line that was as effective as the one you use now, but 1/4 the weight?

    Do we need to put 5" in the street everytime we go on a box alarm? No. But I can think of several fires where it might have been nice to have that capability.

    Anyway, LHS* doesn't take people talking about his uber department very well, so leave him be. Take a technique or two as you see fit, temper it with your experience, and improve _your_ service.



    [This message has been edited by SBrooks (edited 03-21-2001).]

  18. #18
    LHS*
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Mr Brooks

    //It must be nice to live in his world.

    I think we share the same planet.

    //If he drove one of his rigs over here and parked it in a firehouse, would it work?

    Gee, you know the difference between us? I've fought fire in your county for 2 years fulltime so I know our rigs would work there. Now can you say the same?

    //Probably not, but then they weren't built for here,

    It is the size of a heavy rescue or a tower ladder or straight stick. You have those out there in my day as well as now. We use wheels, tires, axles, water, engines, etc...just like you. Fire is fire.

    // they were built for a sparsely populated desert community.

    They also serve the city and have worked well in cities of 650,000, 250,000, 50,000 and 10,000. It is just a fire truck.

    //Do we need a roof mounted imager? Probably not as much as they do out west.

    Do you go into a McDonalds when you see on arrival the truss space is involved before you even get out of the cab??

    //Do we need to flow 600 gpm through a handline? Not hardly. But it'd be nice to be able to get a monitor pipe in service that fast, though I'd rather concentrate on sending an attack line through the front door.

    Even on a fully involved building???

    //Would a 55' ladder/boom reach? Nope.

    Doesn’t reach here either that is why we don’t have 55’ booms.

    //Would CAFS or Class A foam help us? Almost Assuredly, though the jury's still out on exactly how.

    The jury is out? Well, good enough for all of Phoenix’s engines,

    //Do we need to precalc pump pressures? Don't kid yourself on this one, guys.

    Please oh please explain yourself, kinda hard to read your mind.

    All a fire truck is and should be is a device to address the needs and probabilities of your community. That is all ours are.



  19. #19
    SBrooks
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Mr. Stevens:

    I didn't know you while you were over here, but I've spoken to some people who did. I wouldn't brag about your record here in PG.

    60,000 pounds? Bigger than most trucks and all heavy rescues. 350hp 60,000 75+ mph? Must be a pig. It'd get beaten everywhere it went. 80,000 miles in 5 years? You protect a county with 25,000 people in it. So that's more than 3 miles per rig per person in your county a year. C'mon, what gives? Running your rig as an engine in PG county would break it in weeks.

    Imager? Why not use a handheld and save 20,000. Especially since we dont' have to drive up through miles of smoke like they do out west.

    600 gpm attack line vs line through the front door? Line through the front door, at least you tried, rather than "Blitzing it". If it IS fully involved, you're right, i'm not taking the 1 1/2" through the front door, but if it's fully involved, the building is a loss, everyone in is dead, and we protect exposures, just like everyone else. I wouldn't waste bed space on a "bomb line" when I already have a wagon pipe and a preconnected 325gpm line.

    Jurys still out on foam. Yes it is. if it weren't why doesn't ISO give credit for it in the NFF? why doesn't NFPA allow use of a smaller line/lower flow? why doesn't Phoenix have an SOP requiring the use of CAFS on structure fires? Why did Boston & Fairfax, who tested CAFS for their department, not start spec'ing it on every new piece? Why buy CAFS to pump 1:2 to 1:1 cfm air:gpm water when an aspirating nozzle can get 1.3:1 and a fog nozzle can get 1:2.5? Why not save $30,000? Plus you still get a flow of 95-150+ of solution vs. 60 gpm or so for CAFS?

    If not 55' what then?

    I'm on YOUR side with the pump calcs, sorry for being unclear. I do, however, think it's entirely within the realm of reason to expect the wagon driver to be able to charge the lines to the proper pressure, as well as choose between laying one line or two.

    Lighten up. You've got good ideas, too bad you alienate everyone who doesn't explicity agree with you.

  20. #20
    LHS*
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    //I didn't know you while you were over here, but I've spoken to some people who did. I wouldn't brag about your record here in PG.

    Gee I was in Montgomery County. I guess my record in PG would be horrible. Feel free to explain what you are talking about.

    // 350hp 60,000 75+ mph? Must be a pig.

    Wow I don't know where you gert your facts but 470 horses is what is under the hood.

    //It'd get beaten everywhere it went.

    Whatever

    //80,000 miles in 5 years? You protect a county with 25,000 people in it. So that's more than 3 miles per rig per person in your county a year. C'mon, what gives?

    The county is 5000 square miles.

    // Running your rig as an engine in PG county would break it in weeks.

    Oh I'm so sure, I remeber the dogs you all ran when I was there and last time I visted. Their isn't a thing special in PG.

    //Imager? Why not use a handheld and save 20,000.

    Gee you said you already had your handsful.


    //I wouldn't waste bed space on a "bomb line" when I already have a wagon pipe and a preconnected 325gpm line.

    Yeah that ought to be a pretty quick stretch to the center court of a town house, inside a gym or auditorium, or to the rear of a structure.

    //if it weren't why doesn't ISO give credit

    Gee they did the last four ratings I did. In fact they gave the FD's more credit than they got for staffing.

    //why doesn't NFPA allow use of a smaller line/lower flow?

    Gee I didn't know NFPA required anything as a concensus standard. NFPA hasd water down gfround ladders, performancve standards and line flows in my short time in the fire service. But the housing stock has remained constant. Can you say vendor influence?? I'll take our 15 years of CAF experince and judge things that way thanks.

    //why doesn't Phoenix have an SOP requiring the use of CAFS on structure fires?

    Ask them, If I paid 45K extra a rig I'd figure out how to squirt it.

    //Why did Boston & Fairfax, who tested CAFS for their department, not start spec'ing it on every new piece?

    Gee ask them, Boston said they needed half the fire flow. That is a good enough testemony for me.

    //Why buy CAFS to pump 1:2 to 1:1 cfm air:gpm water when an aspirating nozzle can get 1.3:1 and a fog nozzle can get 1:2.5?

    A let me see cools the atmosphere 5 times quicker according to ISFSI. Use lesss water, lighter line, extend water tank, makes much better foam with lower drain times by several magnitudes.

    //Why not save $30,000?

    Gee we only paid 20.

    // Plus you still get a flow of 95-150+ of solution vs. 60 gpm or so for CAFS?

    We flow 90 gpm and never had a fire laugh at us yet. I saw plent yof fire in Montgomery and PG county laugh at use with 1 3/4 and 2 1/2" lines SB and fog.

    //If not 55' what then?

    65' Reaches everything just fine.


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