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  1. #51
    KEA
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    To all:

    /Feel free to post a real email address, and make a web page, we’d love to see what you run so we could all use good laugh./

    Lets assume for a moment that a department was so far behind the norm or lacking in any area compared to another department.

    Is laughing at them the right thing to do?

    Larry, I'm sure in your consulting business where you get paid to bring change and hopefully progress you have come across these types of departments. Was your response to laugh at them? No! they are paying you so that is the last thing you would do. So does this mean that since your not being paid by one its OK to laugh at them?

    I just think its wrong to take that kind of a position regardless of the departments status in your eyes. I know they are your eyes and you have the right to take whatever position you want. I simply and professionally disagree with you.

    Happy Easter to all.

    ------------------
    Kirk Allen
    First Strike Technologies, Inc

  2. #52
    LHS*
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Golly, in response to someone asking someone else to email them or get in contact with them as they criticize anothers operations who were not even part of teh dicussion at hand, without sharing their your own operations, yeah that seems fair. All I can figure they must not have much to share or are embarrassed.

    As far as consulting, people ask me to come out, I don't ask them. And sometimes we do have a good laugh about their operations. I guess that is why we often throw everything away and start over.

    //I just think its wrong to take that kind of a position regardless of the departments status in your eyes.

    Gee pretty hard to tell status when there is noting shared isn't it?

    //Lets assume for a moment that a department was so far behind the norm or lacking in any area compared to another department.

    Well, that is your assumption, don't include me in it.

    I really appreciate your hollow concern though.

    May Alla bless you.

    [This message has been edited by LHS* (edited 04-15-2001).]

    [This message has been edited by LHS* (edited 04-15-2001).]

  3. #53
    LHS*
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    //LHS:
    /400' lines with TFT nozzles, I'd love to see a flow meter while those are flowing.
    /282 gpm enough for you???/

    //400' of 1 3/4" hose

    Gee where on their web site does it say they use 1 3/4" hose? Where did I say 1 3/4"?

    //Automatic 100-psi nozzles

    The web page listed was quite clear on nozzle pressures.

    //and you are flowing 282-gpm or is that flow from the Smoooth bore Fallon tip made by TFT?

    No, but it could be, but we don't own any smooth bores made by TFT.

    // If it is, what tip size?

    It isn't but it could be via a 1". 1 1/16", 1 1/8" or 1 3/16" or any tip larger.

    //What engine pressure are you using to get that flow?

    190 psi using our hose and nozzles or possibly higher (300 psi) using someone else's hose or higher nozzle pressure (all those variables you threw out there).

    Our friction loss numbers 100 ft 2"

    100 125 150 200 300 400
    3.9 9.6 15 21 35 53



    [This message has been edited by LHS* (edited 04-15-2001).]

  4. #54
    ADSN/WFLD
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Thanks for pointing out that my e-mail doesn't work, it should be fine now.

    Now back to the discussion. That is my point precisely, since I have been involved with these forums I have had the impression that you are an active firefighter, responding to calls, putting out fires, extricating victims of wrecks, at the Churchill/Fallon VFD. When you say WE I thought you meant that you were involved in putting out fires and using equipment from your department in NV. You are not an active firefighter in the many departments you talk about. Why don't we here from the departments themselves.
    It is hard to believe you when I find out that you haven't used some of these new products and techniques at 3 AM at a real incident.

    As for statement that you are now retired, I have my doubts that is was even your choice.

    I have the highest respect for retired guys that worked for towns with some work. The amount of experience that you have alluded to can't be gotten in a small desert community, sorry I don't buy it. I live in a urban, suburban area and we just don't get enough work to make you an expert in just a few years. If you worked for Boston, Chicago, FDNY, Kentland then OK I'll believe you, but not with what info I have now.

    Larry I feel like you have been lying to us all. Recently in Fire Rescue magazine I read an article about improving your department's ISO rating. At the end of the article the author, who is a rater for ISO, warns us to be very careful about getting information from people who claim to be experts about ISO. I'm sorry but now reading that I get the feeling that he is talking about you.

  5. #55
    ADSN/WFLD
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    "No, but it could be, but we don't own any smooth bores made by TFT."

    What in the world is this thing then? http://www.geocities.com/Baja/Trails/7873/index6aa.html
    And is that thing called the XXX tip based on the department you are talking about?

    So based on that can I call a 15/16th smooth bore an Addison tip instead of a FDNY tip because we have them on the rigs in Addison?


  6. #56
    LHS*
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post




    //It is hard to believe you when I find out that you haven't used some of these new products and techniques at 3 AM at a real incident.

    Are you sure about that? What is new??? I’m sure a majority of products I have as much or more experience with as anyone with the so called new products or techniques. Please list any you don’t think it is true.

    // I have had the impression that you are an active firefighter, responding to calls, putting out fires, extricating victims of wrecks, at the Churchill/Fallon VFD.

    So every time I speak you assume I'm talking abot Fallon even thouh I post photos from Colorado, Texas, Indiana, New Jersey, Montana, etc?

    I won't take any credit for your impressions. I certainly have done all those things at times in FCVFD. Plus, I've designed and acquired all their apparatus and loose equipment plus I've taught the officers, engineers and firefighters and rookies those same things you ask about.

    I have been in the fire service for 25 years and rose through the ranks to paid chief and even state director of fire service training in 25 years in the business I can tell you very little has changed. My first air pack was a Scott 4.5 in 1975, we had Hughes thermal imagers in 1976, we ran 5 inch hose with storz couplings, we had automatic nozzles on our 1 3/4" and 2 inch attack lines and master streams, we had radio controlled hydrant valves, wet water, medium expansion foam tips, jaws, our biggest handline had a 500gpm tip. Tell me what is new? Water still fights fires.

    I wasn't aware we had to post a resume to post on these forums...I guess by your measure Brannigan and Carter can't speak or, Smith, or Dunn...either becuse they aren't holding hoses either?????

    If you have any doubts about my retirement ask SCook, what I charge and where I've been spending my time, or Buck, or Station2. If you need to find out what I make they'll tell you. I left Fire Rescue Mag last August you can read about my retirement in that issue and have worked part time for FAM until recently, neither one made up even 30% of my income, no office hours ever, in the last 8 years, he he he. I just travel around and do what I want to do when I want to do it. Sometimes I charge and some times I don't.

    //Why don't we here from the departments themselves.

    You might find this hard to believe but every fire department and every firefighter in the US isn't on this board.

    //The amount of experience that you have alluded to can't be gotten in a small desert community, sorry I don't buy it

    I never said where I got my experience did I?

    //but not with what info I have now.

    Gee, why don't you ask if it is that important?

    //I feel like you have been lying to us all.

    I can't help what you feel.

    //Recently in Fire Rescue magazine I read an article about improving your department's ISO rating.

    Odds are the article you read in Fire Rescue could have been written by me I began the ISO column 4 years ago and picked my replacement to continue my work.

    //At the end of the article the author, who is a rater for ISO,

    WHO WAS A RATER FOR ISO. NOW A fire department CONSULTANT for ISO affairs. You really need to pay attention to bios.

    //warns us to be very careful about getting information from people who claim to be experts about ISO.

    Well, he is one. Is he warning you to stay away from him too?

    Here are a few facts, feel free to post evidence to the contrary. Got Fallon a Class 1, the first volunteer Class 1 in the US. Helped Dubois get the 2nd and only other Class 1. Helped Churchill and Dolores get Class 3's without hydrants, the only FDS ISO 3's in the US. Also helped Loveland, Beatty and others get Class 4's with rural water. Helped Granbury get the first rural rating in Texas. Feel free to ask any of these folks. Sometimes I presented the department to ISO, or helped just with specific parts or just gave advice with what to do. But in four of the best grades ever done I did the presenting. Helped the first combo department in Texas get a Class 1 Frisco. If you need phone numbers or references ask. Helped almost 100 departments get apparatus. I can't think of a better thing to do than go out and get one department after another millions. Sometimes I just get the ball rolling and someone with vision picks the ball up and keeps running with it, other times I do the asking, write the ballot issues, sell the councils, boards, elected officials, other times others run with my advice. Several folks on this board can verify these things.

    I can assure you my replacement has never helped anyone get a Class 1 or anyone drop 7 classes in one rating without a hydrant system. I've done it twice. Last I checked I helped with the best grades in PA, CA, NV, NM, CO, TX, OR, and a few others. Standby for MA, NJ, and IN.

    You bet some ISO raters hate me!

    The "Fallon Tip" is made by both Iowa American and TFT. The ball valve with the down facing threads is what we call a fallon tip. The smooth bores are by Iowa American known as stubs MST and OST by name.

    //So based on that can I call a 15/16th smooth bore an Addison tip instead of a FDNY tip because we have them on the rigs in Addison?

    You can call whatever you want to call whatever you want to call it, the fact it is in Iowa Americans catalog as a Fallon Tip or if you call TFT and ask for a Fallon tip they will know what you are talking about. Is there another product on the market used by someone that looks like what rattlesnake or fallon use? Did we copy it from anyone, did we steal it or did we innovate it?

  7. #57
    KEA
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Larry, you may recall in my post I stated "Just wanted to make sure I understand this correctly"

    I found it on the site - 2" line not 1 3/4. Thanks for the clarification. Sorry if my post implied you said anything about hose size.


    /The web page listed was quite clear on nozzle pressures./

    I'm sorry for being stupid but it doesnt appear to clear to me unless I assume some things. Knowing assuming only brings problems please help us out.

    Does the rattlesnake department use their automatics at 100-psi? the only nozzle pressures I found were listed as 45-psi on the site for the 2 inch attack lines. Are they using a low pressure automatic?

    /Our friction loss numbers 100 ft 2"
    100 125 150 200 300 400
    3.9 9.6 15 21 35 53 ////

    How did you get these FL numbers?

    Thanks



    ------------------
    Kirk Allen
    First Strike Technologies, Inc

  8. #58
    LHS*
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    //I'm sorry for being stupid but it doesnt appear to clear to me unless I assume some things.

    Here is what is says on the web page (http://www.geocities.com/Baja/Trails/7873/index6aa.html),

    The nozzle consists of what is known as a "Rattlesnake Tip". It consists of a 45 psi automatic tip and a non-traditional pistol grip that holds a a 1 1/8" stub tip and a 15/16" and 1/2" smooth bore stack.

    /The web page listed was quite clear on nozzle pressures./

    //the only nozzle pressures I found were listed as 45-psi on the site for the 2 inch attack lines. Are they using a low pressure automatic?

    Maybe because that is the only pressure they use. Is 45 psi a low pressure automatic? The web page says they use 45 psi automatics, the nozzle does what the web page says, So yes I guess you can conclude they use 45 psi automatic tips on red fire trucks.

    //but it doesnt appear to clear to me unless I assume some things.

    You don't have to assume anything, the site clearly says what they do.

    /Does the rattlesnake department use their automatics at 100-psi?

    Let's read what the web page says:

    It consists of a 45 psi automatic tip No it doesn't sound like it.

    /How did you get these FL numbers?

    Paid the hose manufacturer 19 cents a foot for UL to certify the friction loss numbers. Two members witnessed the test with UL performing the test.

    The water tank goes dry with a 1 1/8" SB at 65 psi through 200 feet of hose with a EDP of 135 psi in 8 minutes everytime.

    //I found it on the site - 2" line not 1 3/4.

    I also listed it in my reply to you Our friction loss numbers 100 ft 2"

    //Just wanted to make sure I understand this correctly

    Is everything clear now?

    [This message has been edited by LHS* (edited 04-16-2001).]

  9. #59
    KEA
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Thanks Larry for the informative clarificatoin of what I missed on the site and the answers to my questions. Your efforts are appreciated.

    Ooops! I forgot to answer your question.
    Yes, everything is clear now, Crystal clear!
    Thanks for asking.
    ------------------
    Kirk Allen
    First Strike Technologies, Inc

    [This message has been edited by KEA (edited 04-16-2001).]

  10. #60
    ADSN/WFLD
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Larry, I'd just like some clarification you said "282 GPM" 400' 2" lines at a PDP of "190 psi using our hose and nozzles or possibly higher (300 psi)..."

    I just looked at TFT's website and none of the data suggests that you can flow anywhere near that. In fact they state that the dual-force has a range of 70-250 GPM at a nominal pressure of 100 PSI. Where is the rest of the water coming from?
    The best the charts say is with a EP of 250 and 250' of 2" hose you can get 275 GPM on low pressure with a reaction of 139 lbs. How can Rattlesnake extend that line another 150' and lower the pressure 50 lbs and still get more water out?
    Did they modify their $1,000 nozzles?

    Personally I'd take the high flows and lower nozzle reaction of a vindicator.

  11. #61
    ADSN/WFLD
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Larry, so their is no confusion or even assumptions: From what you have said in numerous posts people have been lead to a logical conclusion that you are a member of the Fallon, NV fire department. Regardless of what you did for or with that department in the past, you are NOT an active member of that department now. Isn't that correct?

    And in this post you are implying that you are an active member of Rattlesnake. You may have been paid as a consultant for work you did for them but you are NOT a member of that department, isn't that correct?

    I'm not saying that you don't have anything to offer the fire service. I just don't appreciate the misrepresentations you post.

    I would like to know where you have gotten your experience. Consulting and watching is not firefighting. Training is not experience either, it certainly helps you prepare for the real thing, but it isn't the uncontrolled environment of a structure fire.

    "I guess by your measure Brannigan and Carter can't speak or, Smith, or Dunn...either becuse they aren't holding hoses either?????"

    I said that I hold the highest respect for retired guys from busy towns. Those guys are proven, they have the reverence of the fire service because they have done the job for years. Chief Dunn worked for the busiest department in the world for an entire career. Their are buildings in NYC that have more people in them than whole towns by you.

    I'll agree that fire is the same on the east coast as it is in the west, but I'm talking about volume of calls. A five year FDNY FF has more experience than a 30 year vet in most places.

  12. #62
    LHS*
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    ADSN/WFLD

    // Where is the rest of the water coming from?

    A fire truck.


    //The best the charts say is with a EP of 250 and 250' of 2" hose you can get 275 GPM.

    And 275 is “nowhere near” 282 gpm??

    //How can Rattlesnake extend that line another 150' and lower the pressure 50 lbs and still get more water out?

    Better hose friction loss, or pump plumbing, gauge inaccuracy, using by the book hydraulics, or, or, or? I wasn’t there when TFT did their tests were you? I don’t think they used a Rattlesnake rig either.

    TFT says the FL is 50 psi per 00 feet of hose at 250 gpm. Ponn lists 2” at 250 gpm at 23 psi FL, National 2” 32 psi, Angus 24-27-28 and Flexline lists the same Could it be the TFT friction loss is calculated and the others are based upon flow testing?

    //Personally I'd take the high flows and lower nozzle reaction of a vindicator.

    // I just looked at TFT's website and none of the data suggests that you can flow anywhere near that

    Gee 282 isn’t “anywhere near” 250 gpm? 275 isn’t close to 282 gpm? Seems to me the charts more than prove the flows .

    In fact the nozzle will do it according to TFT’s chart at 100 or in the low pressure position.

    Hey when you find a chart for a low pressure automatic let me know. Guess what will change?
    By the book reaction at 250 is 126 lbs at 100 psi, the TFT tests show 127 lbs. At 75 pounds NP the reaction is 109 lbs and at 50 it is 89 lbs.

    So just how much lower is your nozzle reaction in fact what is your nozzle reaction???? What is your flow out the end of 400 feet of attack line?

    //And in this post you are implying that you are an active member of Rattlesnake.

    Where or where do you come up with that conclusion the same place you came up with Colorado being in Nevada?

    //I would like to know where you have gotten your experience.

    Fighting fire, is that ok?

    //Their are buildings that have more people in them than whole towns by you.

    That’s nice, we both handle our own calls don’t we?

    //I'll agree that fire is the same on the east coast as it is in the west, but I'm talking about volume of calls. A five year FDNY FF has more experience than a 30 year vet in most places

    So with does that have to do with trash lines? Water flow, hose, apparatus and nozzles they don’t use? You’re not from FDNY so you no longer have the right to post? What relevance does FDNY have to a rural community without hydrants, or your alleged two fire departments? 30 guys on initial attack in 6 minutes means FDNY is the unusual not the norm in the US fire service. The fact they vertically ventilate before the squirt water makes them different than most FD’s, too. So, is there a point here?

    Seeing as how I’m answering all your questions how about answering what I have asked you in the past, please.

    //Yeah can’t possibly learn from anyone who works in 7 departments a week only from people who belong to one department??? Please explain.
    Sorry I retired, is that a sin?????

    //It's great that Fallon has such wonderful rigs, but like previous posts, the Fallon rigs wouldn't work everywhere. "but nosing in always works"
    I don’t know how to break this to you, BUT we are talking about apparatus from Colorado…DUH The out of context quote is quite clear saying “out here” nosing in always works.” Well doesn’t it?

    //I guess in the middle of the desert you don't have cars falling off of the expressway 200+ feet from the road,
    If you go back and read the post, you will see it says “out here”, not anywhere else, 200 foot expressways are not in the response district so that is why they built the rig for that response. Is that ok?

    // where the best way to the patient is by bringing the power unit and tools to the wreck.
    However if you’d looked at the posted link you would have seen portable power units, hoses and tools for use away from the rig on every rig. So if your advice is to design apparatus for the call you’ll never have or someone else’s turf, I think that’s bad advice. But in this case they’d work just fine wouldn’t they? The rigs in question, from COLORADO, No Desert There! Are setup exactly for the calls they handle not anyone else’s. Anything wrong with that?

    //We don't need a kitchen in every rig. We aren't more than a half of a mile from a convenience mart any where in our, or our neighbors districts.
    Good for you, did someone suggest you had to have one????

    ///We also don't place all of our eggs in one basket,
    Gee, three identical rigs from three station is all your eggs in one basket? DO you even know what you are talking about?

    // from the sound of it if Fallon's rig breaks down you can't run anything.
    Oh really, please make your case if you can. What makes your rig different than theirs?


    //It is hard to believe you when I find out that you haven't used some of these new products and techniques at 3 AM at a real incident.
    Are you sure about that? What is new??? I’m sure a majority of products I have as much or more experience with as anyone with the so called new products or techniques. Please list any you don’t think it is true.

    // I have had the impression that you are an active firefighter, responding to calls, putting out fires, extricating victims of wrecks, at the Churchill/Fallon VFD.
    So every time I speak you assume I'm talking about Fallon even though I post photos from Colorado, Texas, Indiana, New Jersey, Montana, etc?

    //I won't take any credit for your impressions. I certainly have done all those things at times in FCVFD. Is that ok? Do you think I forgot it all already? How can anyone be a chief, they’d no longer be holding a hose?

    //Tell me what is new?

    //I wasn't aware we had to post a resume to post on these forums...do we???

    //At the end of the article the author, who is a rater for ISO,
    WHO WAS A RATER FOR ISO. NOW A fire department CONSULTANT for ISO affairs. You really need to pay attention to bios. He is a consultant right???

    //warns us to be very careful about getting information from people who claim to be experts about ISO.
    Well, he is one. Is he warning you to stay away from him too?

    The "Fallon Tip" is made by both Iowa American and TFT. The ball valve with the down facing threads is what we call a fallon tip. The smooth bores are by Iowa American known as stubs MST and OST by name. So are you clear on this?

    //So based on that can I call a 15/16th smooth bore an Addison tip instead of a FDNY tip because we have them on the rigs in Addison?
    You can call whatever you want to call whatever you want to call it, the fact it is in Iowa Americans catalog as a Fallon Tip or if you call TFT and ask for a Fallon tip they will know what you are talking about. Is there another product on the market used by someone that looks like what rattlesnake or fallon use? Did we copy it from anyone, did we steal it or did we innovate it?





  13. #63
    dcfdlt
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Gentlemen Larry(?) and ADSN/WFLD:
    I appreciate the level of thought and discourse as I am sure most others would agree. There is a good article by Carl Welser in the April Fire Engineering about "Blending Visions," that I think would be apt whether the discussion is management or apparatus design. I am not sure if you put your left or right thumb on top when you fold your hands but the point is there are thousands of ways to skin a cat.

    I can't see how some of the apparatus designs can work effectively now a days, but that's fine...they work for the jurisdiction and the people running the calls IN THE LOCALE. With narrow city streets with cars within a foot of either side of a firetruck, like DC, things like ladder racks and the lack of front suction would make the job difficult. Obviously in other areas with longer response times and manpower issues(uh, personal), the maximization of space and tools is a priority.

    Good luck and keep up the knowledable posts.

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