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  1. #41
    Eng522ine
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Exclamation

    148champ... IF you know what you're doing with a booster line, and if you have someone that knows how to pump to one, you can EASILY put out a car fire with a booster line. This can be done long before a little car fire turns into a big one. If you're having problems with doing it successfully, ask around and see if people in your department or neighboring departments have experience using them successfully and ask them to drill with you so you can learn it. Just because you can't do it doesn't mean that it can't be done. I mean, hell, it's already on your truck so you might as well learn how to use it to your greatest advantage. I don't mean for this to sound like a put down or any kind of slam, but like you said you have it, so learn it. It IS a great tool, don't just chalk it up as an old man's folly. I'm no old man, 27, but I'll preach the usefulness of the booster line till I find it no longer works.


  2. #42
    oz10engine
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    148champ... So what line do you pull for a trash can fire,small brush fire,or a small or smoldering fire in the engine, or behind the dash, or in a seat, a 1-3/4" ? Yea right. Use some common sense.

  3. #43
    dcfdlt
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    You got to be kidding me...LHS thanks for your pics and your ergonomic concerns by putting everything but the kitchen sink on the front bumper, but seriously what the hell is your dept thinking?? Are these the attack lines? Are there crosslays on that piece. With the attack lines not preconnected, it reminds me of some of the European rigs, which take three times as long to get a line in service. With the TFT on the front of the bumper, I am reminded of a sniper putting his rifle together before he goes out to hunt.

    A recent trend has been to put extrication equip on the front bumper. While I like this concept of hydr lines/reels and electric reels, I don't find any convincing arguement for the combo tool. Yes, it's preconnected but God-for-bid you hit a pothole or even a fenderbender, you are going to wipe out about 10K worth of equipment. Nobody plans for accidents. Anyway, just my opinion. I admire the departmental creativity but not the efficiency of the solution.

    A thought on booster reels. Wash., DC specs them on our new Seagraves. Some companies go to several dumpsters, trash, etc. fires a day. Over the years we found it so much easier then pulling and repacking, pulling and repacking on B.S. several times a day (autos get an 1 1/2). The problem is the reels are on top mid mount. Evidently Seagrave couldn't put them on the back step, WHERE THEY SHOULD BE, because of the rear
    4 1/2 intakes (which we like as flexibility in addition to the front). If you can spend the money and don't need the equipment space, there a good option. Be safe.



  4. #44
    dcfdlt
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    MY APOLOGIES LHS AND RATTLESNAKE!!! My buddy showed be just two shots of your rig. I didn't think anyone was stupid enough to leave unconnected donut rolls on the front bumper. You got some big dough on the front of theat piece and now I look, it seems there's a lot of ingenuity. Sorry, for the haphazard opinion. DCFDLT

  5. #45
    LHS*
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Thanks for your pics and your ergonomic concerns by putting everything but the kitchen sink on the front bumper,

    Actually, if you look around a bit on the site

    "http://www.geocities.com/Baja/Trails/7873/index2.html">

    you will see, the kitchen in inside the cab on the back wall of every rig. 21 cubic feet of food storage (fully stocked of course with everything from candy, to ready to eat complete meals), 11 gallons of drinking water, two coffee makers (decaf and caf) each with a capacity of 1400 cups per hour that can be used in the cab or portably, hot and cold cup dispensers, 140 cans of soda, napkin and paper towel dispensers, microwave, refrigerator, ice maker, two hot plates, your basic needs area (nail clippers, advil, tylinol, aspirin, tissues, toilet paper, comb brush, allergy stuff, cough drops, contact, etc.), and two video players and two color TV’s. Pretty basic actually, being a union fire department I‘m sure you have something much nicer.

    //Are these the attack lines?

    Yes two 200 to 250 foot attacks on the font bumper preconnected and three 400 footers on the rear bump plus a 150 footer.

    //Are there crosslays on that piece.

    Of course not.

    ///With the attack lines not preconnected, it reminds me of some of the European rigs, which take three times as long to get a line in service.

    I bet the boys from FDNY and LA City would argue that with you, they are not running preconnects.

    // With the TFT on the front of the bumper, I am reminded of a sniper putting his rifle together before he goes out to hunt.

    Cool, it is a 30 year bracket, it works well.

    //recent trend has been to put extrication equip on the front bumper. While I like this concept of hydr lines/reels and electric reels, I don't find any convincing arguement for the combo tool.

    We simply push on button, walk out of the cab grab the extra large combo tool and walk to the vehicle and go to work in less than 15 seconds. It is a cutter and a spreader. Having it preconnected means one less thing to connect or screw up. With 150 feet of working hose measured from the front bumper we can reach anything. I guess we could do like most fd’s have a pump, hoses and tools stuffed in a compartment (hopefully on the rig on scene, if not wait for it to arrive), and in 3 to 5 minutes (assuming no snow) and a lot of walking back and forth get it out of the truck, drag it to the scene, hook up all the hoses (hoping no one drops one in the dirt so it gets fouled and won’t connect), hook up the tools (unless of course someone shut the pump off with pressure on it so you can’t hook the hoses up), and hope the pump will start (and hope someone knows how to start it in the dark) and not run out of fuel during the operation.

    Another firefighter gets out of the cab approaches the vehicle with four step chocks, Another with an air chisel and air bags also preconnected to 150 feet of air line, Another with a preconnected foam line 200 or 250 feet, another is the inside guy with aluminized blanket and trauma kit, still another with a floodlight, a sawzall and a preconnected ram all three on 150 foot lines and the last member with a mess of cribbing. All of this occurring under the illumination of 9,750 watts of forward facing floodlights and the protection of dual foam master streams. We basically avoid the whole process of staging equipment, it shows up ready to use. If you add all the things we’ve preconnected and all of the tings we avoid by being preconected you’ll see there are hundreds of things that can bite you that we have avoided.

    Each member simply grabbed the tool they are assigned to by riding position and released a Velcro strap and walked off with the tool. Everything is attached to the appropriate reel. Everything from air bag controller, to pressure regulator for the air chisel, and foam setting on the foam meter are all preset. No throttling the rig up, turning on flood lights, engaging the generator…compressor…hydraulic s etc, it all is off one button in the cab.

    Out here the front of the pumper arrives on scene first. Every engine is an extrication piece. Each rig can bring the same equipment to bear on an extrication and work together. We could have put all the stuff at the rear or side in a compartment, but that would add 20 to 40 feet of hose to every reel to get to the same place in front of the rig. It isn’t always possible to drive next to or past an accident, but nosing in always works.

    We err or simplicity. Who could ever forget your KME ladder on the cover of the magazine on its side. All the controls and options allowed the crews to outsmart themselves and destroy the ¾ million dollar ladder on a $80,000 dollar hose fire.

    //Yes, it's preconnected but God-for-bid you hit a pothole or even a fenderbender, you are going to wipe out about 10K worth of equipment.

    With only one paved road I doubt potholes will be an issue. In fact with all roads being gravel or dirt we probably know a lot about equipment mounting for this environment.

    You’re department certainly proved if you hit a tree you trash the crew and the KME cab. So let’s compare your fire departments bumper to ours, a fender bender with your rig, results in pushing the pump off the frame due to the rigid front suction piping. Ours requires calling the insurance company and ordering hose, tools, lights whatever, no pump work. Certainly our layout is much heartier for cold weather use. You need to run a heavy rescue or ladder to begin extrication whereas any engine can do the job here. You have a very limited hose compliment on the front bumper.

    You can’t pump and roll with your apparatus and we can. A large flammable liquid fire would require a foam rig at your place whereas each engine can support itself here. The height of your deck gun makes penetration into a ground floor building marginal, whereas our 5 foot high guns offer tremendous interior ground floor penetration.

    Other observations are: floodlighting is non-existent on your rigs (12 volting lighting in the 21st century??), the raised roof design limits the use of your deck gun…it is basically a right or left only gun, we certainly have a better ground ladder compliment, a lot more hose, offer better accountability, better crew safety, better situational awareness for the officer and crew, it would take us a lot less time to deploy almost any tool, it appears we could get a draft 17 times faster than your rigs, we can change out our valves days quicker, I’d be very concerned about the non-NFPA keystone on the front bumper of E-2..it could kill, all your preconnects are essentially the same length, thus you do a lot of make and breaks to get a long line in service versus us pulling the right sized hose and spraying water quicker, you can have your 7 foot high cross lays…we can load any of our bumper lines with just one firefighter, our bumper lines certainly pull better than yours and load easier, I like the Roto-Ray does it fight fire??, I’m sure we get around in the snow better with a 6 x 6 chassis, each of our engines has three times the foam capability of your dedicated foam unit, you run a rehab unit and each of our engines is a rehab unit, It appears we carry more of everything in our compartments and I do mean everything, it appears we could have foam flowing in one 30th the time, Overall your engines look very “Dear E-One or Dear Seagrave send us a basic off the shelf pumper”.

    //I admire the departmental creativity but not the efficiency of the solution.

    I agree you all are running Plain Jane’s without much if any innovation.

    //Evidently Seagrave couldn't put them BOOSTERS on the back step, WHERE THEY SHOULD BE,

    Gee couldn’t you get rear ended and spend $10,000 fixing the rig??? That rigid rear suction will knock the pump off the frame. A booster is a $3500 option that can be accomplished with two or three old lengths of hose

    /I didn't think anyone was stupid enough to leave unconnected donut rolls on the front bumper.

    You mean like the donuts you carry stuffed in compartments on your rigs? Yeah like the rip wraps of hose you carry on the running boards? Someone would ask out here why aren’t the hose packs setup for use as hose packs and preconnects?? Like I said above, not everyone agrees preconnects are the way to go. In fact if we look at the nation’s fire trucks we would find that the norm is 7 to 8 foot high attack lines 150 or 200 feet long, regardless of the length of attack lines really needed. Did you know LA County carries as many as 20 donut rolls of attack line on their engines?? Can you believe “they’d be that stupid?” Or is it possible you don’t understand their operations enough to make a comment like that?

    // that piece

    Actually the entire fleet is setup the same way.

    //it seems there's a lot of ingenuity

    A bit, but what do you expect with a lady chief?

    Obviously there are dozens of ways to skin a cat.

  6. #46
    ADSN/WFLD
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    DCFDLT, don't take LHS's comments to heart, he isn't even an active duty firefighter anymore. And he is certainly young enough to be doing the job.

    LHS, It's great that Fallon has such wonderful rigs, but like previous posts, the Fallon rigs wouldn't work everywhere.
    "but nosing in always works"
    I guess in the middle of the desert you don't have cars falling off of the expressway 200+ feet from the road, where the best way to the patient is by bringing the power unit and tools to the wreck.
    We don't need a kitchen in every rig. We aren't more than a half of a mile from a convenience mart any where in our, or our neighbors districts.
    As for two TV's, again we would prefer to do our job and go home, not live in our rig.
    400' lines with TFT nozzles, I'd love to see a flow meter while those are flowing.
    We also don't place all of our eggs in one basket, from the sound of it if Fallon's rig breaks down you can't run anything. No lights, No tools, Not even the coffee maker.

    I would be really interested in hearing from someone on the Churchill / Fallon VFD, preferably some one who is an active firefighter.

  7. #47
    LHS*
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    ADSN/WFLD

    Yeah can’t possibly learn from anyone who works in 7 departments a week only from people who belong to one department??? Please explain.

    Sorry I retired, is that a sin?????

    //It's great that Fallon has such wonderful rigs, but like previous posts, the Fallon rigs wouldn't work everywhere. "but nosing in always works"

    I don’t know how to break this to you, BUT we are talking about apparatus from Colorado…DUH The out of context quote is quite clear saying “out here” nosing in always works.”

    //I guess in the middle of the desert you don't have cars falling off of the expressway 200+ feet from the road,

    If you go back and read the post, you will see it says “out here”, not anywhere else, so no, 200 foot expressways are not in the response district so why would they build the rig for that response??

    // where the best way to the patient is by bringing the power unit and tools to the wreck.

    However if you’d looked at the posted link you would have seen portable power units, hoses and tools for use away from the rig on every rig. So if your advice is to design apparatus for the call you’ll never have or someone else’s turf, I think that’s bad advice. But in this case they’d work just fine wouldn’t they? The rigs in question, from COLORADO, No Desert There! Are setup exactly for the calls they handle not anyone else’s.

    //We don't need a kitchen in every rig. We aren't more than a half of a mile from a convenience mart any where in our, or our neighbors districts.

    Good for you, did someone suggest you had to have one???? Nope!

    //As for two TV's, again we would prefer to do our job and go home, not live in our rig.

    That’s nice you don’t work in their environment and no one is suggesting you change a thing. The fact they have the same ISO rating as you without hydrants and the town you are slamming got you by 4 classes suggests they probably have more on the ball than you though.

    //400' lines with TFT nozzles, I'd love to see a flow meter while those are flowing.

    282 gpm enough for you???

    ///We also don't place all of our eggs in one basket,

    Gee, three identical rigs from three station is all your eggs in one basket? DO you even know what you are talking about?

    // from the sound of it if Fallon's rig breaks down you can't run anything.

    Oh really, please make your case if you can. Seeing as how you are off by over 1000 miles from the department being discussed.

    //I would be really interested in hearing from someone on the Churchill / Fallon VFD, preferably some one who is an active firefighter.

    Two guys from the department have tried to email you but your bogus email address on AOL come back with:

    The following problems occurred while processing your request:

    wfldfire@aol.com - This is not a known member.

    Feel free to post a real email address, and make a web page, we’d love to see what you run so we could all use good laugh.

  8. #48
    Eng522ine
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Thumbs up

    LHS*... great rigs... I love the innovation and creative thinking. My compliments to the spec committee.

    Just one question for ya... After you have some microwave chow and a few cups of coffee... ummmm.... where's the john on that rig??? You got a chemical potty shoved in a compartment??? Or atleast a couple rolls of TP some where?

    Good luck with them. Be safe.

  9. #49
    dr inferno
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Eng522ine: You can tackle any fire you want with the booster line but all I am doing is stating facts from the people who have studied fires and firefighter safety for a lot longer than 27 years. Car fires are no joke with the gas charged struts and bumper shocks becoming projectiles a second line should be pulled always to protect your attack team regardless of overkill concerns. What about that alternative fuel cylinder in the back of the pick up truck that is on fire, that was not noticed thru the smoke, that the fire has been impinging on? You think the booster reel alone can handle that safely? May be too late to deploy a second line now!! As for small car fires a pressure water extinguisher with a foam additive works great and has even less pack up time than the booster reel. As well don't you think you have to work your engine harder to achieve the psi required to overcome the friction loss in the smaller hose as compared inch and half hose? You guys do what you want but I think if your training to take on all car fires with the booster line then you guys are flirting with disaster.

  10. #50
    KEA
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    LHS:
    /400' lines with TFT nozzles, I'd love to see a flow meter while those are flowing.

    /282 gpm enough for you???/

    Just wanted to make sure I understand this correctly:
    400' of 1 3/4" hose with Automatic 100-psi nozzles and you are flowing 282-gpm or is that flow from the Smoooth bore Fallon tip made by TFT? If it is, what tip size?

    What engine pressure are you using to get that flow?

    Thanks

    ------------------
    Kirk Allen
    First Strike Technologies, Inc

  11. #51
    KEA
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    To all:

    /Feel free to post a real email address, and make a web page, we’d love to see what you run so we could all use good laugh./

    Lets assume for a moment that a department was so far behind the norm or lacking in any area compared to another department.

    Is laughing at them the right thing to do?

    Larry, I'm sure in your consulting business where you get paid to bring change and hopefully progress you have come across these types of departments. Was your response to laugh at them? No! they are paying you so that is the last thing you would do. So does this mean that since your not being paid by one its OK to laugh at them?

    I just think its wrong to take that kind of a position regardless of the departments status in your eyes. I know they are your eyes and you have the right to take whatever position you want. I simply and professionally disagree with you.

    Happy Easter to all.

    ------------------
    Kirk Allen
    First Strike Technologies, Inc

  12. #52
    LHS*
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Golly, in response to someone asking someone else to email them or get in contact with them as they criticize anothers operations who were not even part of teh dicussion at hand, without sharing their your own operations, yeah that seems fair. All I can figure they must not have much to share or are embarrassed.

    As far as consulting, people ask me to come out, I don't ask them. And sometimes we do have a good laugh about their operations. I guess that is why we often throw everything away and start over.

    //I just think its wrong to take that kind of a position regardless of the departments status in your eyes.

    Gee pretty hard to tell status when there is noting shared isn't it?

    //Lets assume for a moment that a department was so far behind the norm or lacking in any area compared to another department.

    Well, that is your assumption, don't include me in it.

    I really appreciate your hollow concern though.

    May Alla bless you.

    [This message has been edited by LHS* (edited 04-15-2001).]

    [This message has been edited by LHS* (edited 04-15-2001).]

  13. #53
    LHS*
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    //LHS:
    /400' lines with TFT nozzles, I'd love to see a flow meter while those are flowing.
    /282 gpm enough for you???/

    //400' of 1 3/4" hose

    Gee where on their web site does it say they use 1 3/4" hose? Where did I say 1 3/4"?

    //Automatic 100-psi nozzles

    The web page listed was quite clear on nozzle pressures.

    //and you are flowing 282-gpm or is that flow from the Smoooth bore Fallon tip made by TFT?

    No, but it could be, but we don't own any smooth bores made by TFT.

    // If it is, what tip size?

    It isn't but it could be via a 1". 1 1/16", 1 1/8" or 1 3/16" or any tip larger.

    //What engine pressure are you using to get that flow?

    190 psi using our hose and nozzles or possibly higher (300 psi) using someone else's hose or higher nozzle pressure (all those variables you threw out there).

    Our friction loss numbers 100 ft 2"

    100 125 150 200 300 400
    3.9 9.6 15 21 35 53



    [This message has been edited by LHS* (edited 04-15-2001).]

  14. #54
    ADSN/WFLD
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Thanks for pointing out that my e-mail doesn't work, it should be fine now.

    Now back to the discussion. That is my point precisely, since I have been involved with these forums I have had the impression that you are an active firefighter, responding to calls, putting out fires, extricating victims of wrecks, at the Churchill/Fallon VFD. When you say WE I thought you meant that you were involved in putting out fires and using equipment from your department in NV. You are not an active firefighter in the many departments you talk about. Why don't we here from the departments themselves.
    It is hard to believe you when I find out that you haven't used some of these new products and techniques at 3 AM at a real incident.

    As for statement that you are now retired, I have my doubts that is was even your choice.

    I have the highest respect for retired guys that worked for towns with some work. The amount of experience that you have alluded to can't be gotten in a small desert community, sorry I don't buy it. I live in a urban, suburban area and we just don't get enough work to make you an expert in just a few years. If you worked for Boston, Chicago, FDNY, Kentland then OK I'll believe you, but not with what info I have now.

    Larry I feel like you have been lying to us all. Recently in Fire Rescue magazine I read an article about improving your department's ISO rating. At the end of the article the author, who is a rater for ISO, warns us to be very careful about getting information from people who claim to be experts about ISO. I'm sorry but now reading that I get the feeling that he is talking about you.

  15. #55
    ADSN/WFLD
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    "No, but it could be, but we don't own any smooth bores made by TFT."

    What in the world is this thing then? http://www.geocities.com/Baja/Trails/7873/index6aa.html
    And is that thing called the XXX tip based on the department you are talking about?

    So based on that can I call a 15/16th smooth bore an Addison tip instead of a FDNY tip because we have them on the rigs in Addison?


  16. #56
    LHS*
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post




    //It is hard to believe you when I find out that you haven't used some of these new products and techniques at 3 AM at a real incident.

    Are you sure about that? What is new??? I’m sure a majority of products I have as much or more experience with as anyone with the so called new products or techniques. Please list any you don’t think it is true.

    // I have had the impression that you are an active firefighter, responding to calls, putting out fires, extricating victims of wrecks, at the Churchill/Fallon VFD.

    So every time I speak you assume I'm talking abot Fallon even thouh I post photos from Colorado, Texas, Indiana, New Jersey, Montana, etc?

    I won't take any credit for your impressions. I certainly have done all those things at times in FCVFD. Plus, I've designed and acquired all their apparatus and loose equipment plus I've taught the officers, engineers and firefighters and rookies those same things you ask about.

    I have been in the fire service for 25 years and rose through the ranks to paid chief and even state director of fire service training in 25 years in the business I can tell you very little has changed. My first air pack was a Scott 4.5 in 1975, we had Hughes thermal imagers in 1976, we ran 5 inch hose with storz couplings, we had automatic nozzles on our 1 3/4" and 2 inch attack lines and master streams, we had radio controlled hydrant valves, wet water, medium expansion foam tips, jaws, our biggest handline had a 500gpm tip. Tell me what is new? Water still fights fires.

    I wasn't aware we had to post a resume to post on these forums...I guess by your measure Brannigan and Carter can't speak or, Smith, or Dunn...either becuse they aren't holding hoses either?????

    If you have any doubts about my retirement ask SCook, what I charge and where I've been spending my time, or Buck, or Station2. If you need to find out what I make they'll tell you. I left Fire Rescue Mag last August you can read about my retirement in that issue and have worked part time for FAM until recently, neither one made up even 30% of my income, no office hours ever, in the last 8 years, he he he. I just travel around and do what I want to do when I want to do it. Sometimes I charge and some times I don't.

    //Why don't we here from the departments themselves.

    You might find this hard to believe but every fire department and every firefighter in the US isn't on this board.

    //The amount of experience that you have alluded to can't be gotten in a small desert community, sorry I don't buy it

    I never said where I got my experience did I?

    //but not with what info I have now.

    Gee, why don't you ask if it is that important?

    //I feel like you have been lying to us all.

    I can't help what you feel.

    //Recently in Fire Rescue magazine I read an article about improving your department's ISO rating.

    Odds are the article you read in Fire Rescue could have been written by me I began the ISO column 4 years ago and picked my replacement to continue my work.

    //At the end of the article the author, who is a rater for ISO,

    WHO WAS A RATER FOR ISO. NOW A fire department CONSULTANT for ISO affairs. You really need to pay attention to bios.

    //warns us to be very careful about getting information from people who claim to be experts about ISO.

    Well, he is one. Is he warning you to stay away from him too?

    Here are a few facts, feel free to post evidence to the contrary. Got Fallon a Class 1, the first volunteer Class 1 in the US. Helped Dubois get the 2nd and only other Class 1. Helped Churchill and Dolores get Class 3's without hydrants, the only FDS ISO 3's in the US. Also helped Loveland, Beatty and others get Class 4's with rural water. Helped Granbury get the first rural rating in Texas. Feel free to ask any of these folks. Sometimes I presented the department to ISO, or helped just with specific parts or just gave advice with what to do. But in four of the best grades ever done I did the presenting. Helped the first combo department in Texas get a Class 1 Frisco. If you need phone numbers or references ask. Helped almost 100 departments get apparatus. I can't think of a better thing to do than go out and get one department after another millions. Sometimes I just get the ball rolling and someone with vision picks the ball up and keeps running with it, other times I do the asking, write the ballot issues, sell the councils, boards, elected officials, other times others run with my advice. Several folks on this board can verify these things.

    I can assure you my replacement has never helped anyone get a Class 1 or anyone drop 7 classes in one rating without a hydrant system. I've done it twice. Last I checked I helped with the best grades in PA, CA, NV, NM, CO, TX, OR, and a few others. Standby for MA, NJ, and IN.

    You bet some ISO raters hate me!

    The "Fallon Tip" is made by both Iowa American and TFT. The ball valve with the down facing threads is what we call a fallon tip. The smooth bores are by Iowa American known as stubs MST and OST by name.

    //So based on that can I call a 15/16th smooth bore an Addison tip instead of a FDNY tip because we have them on the rigs in Addison?

    You can call whatever you want to call whatever you want to call it, the fact it is in Iowa Americans catalog as a Fallon Tip or if you call TFT and ask for a Fallon tip they will know what you are talking about. Is there another product on the market used by someone that looks like what rattlesnake or fallon use? Did we copy it from anyone, did we steal it or did we innovate it?

  17. #57
    KEA
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Larry, you may recall in my post I stated "Just wanted to make sure I understand this correctly"

    I found it on the site - 2" line not 1 3/4. Thanks for the clarification. Sorry if my post implied you said anything about hose size.


    /The web page listed was quite clear on nozzle pressures./

    I'm sorry for being stupid but it doesnt appear to clear to me unless I assume some things. Knowing assuming only brings problems please help us out.

    Does the rattlesnake department use their automatics at 100-psi? the only nozzle pressures I found were listed as 45-psi on the site for the 2 inch attack lines. Are they using a low pressure automatic?

    /Our friction loss numbers 100 ft 2"
    100 125 150 200 300 400
    3.9 9.6 15 21 35 53 ////

    How did you get these FL numbers?

    Thanks



    ------------------
    Kirk Allen
    First Strike Technologies, Inc

  18. #58
    LHS*
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    //I'm sorry for being stupid but it doesnt appear to clear to me unless I assume some things.

    Here is what is says on the web page (http://www.geocities.com/Baja/Trails/7873/index6aa.html),

    The nozzle consists of what is known as a "Rattlesnake Tip". It consists of a 45 psi automatic tip and a non-traditional pistol grip that holds a a 1 1/8" stub tip and a 15/16" and 1/2" smooth bore stack.

    /The web page listed was quite clear on nozzle pressures./

    //the only nozzle pressures I found were listed as 45-psi on the site for the 2 inch attack lines. Are they using a low pressure automatic?

    Maybe because that is the only pressure they use. Is 45 psi a low pressure automatic? The web page says they use 45 psi automatics, the nozzle does what the web page says, So yes I guess you can conclude they use 45 psi automatic tips on red fire trucks.

    //but it doesnt appear to clear to me unless I assume some things.

    You don't have to assume anything, the site clearly says what they do.

    /Does the rattlesnake department use their automatics at 100-psi?

    Let's read what the web page says:

    It consists of a 45 psi automatic tip No it doesn't sound like it.

    /How did you get these FL numbers?

    Paid the hose manufacturer 19 cents a foot for UL to certify the friction loss numbers. Two members witnessed the test with UL performing the test.

    The water tank goes dry with a 1 1/8" SB at 65 psi through 200 feet of hose with a EDP of 135 psi in 8 minutes everytime.

    //I found it on the site - 2" line not 1 3/4.

    I also listed it in my reply to you Our friction loss numbers 100 ft 2"

    //Just wanted to make sure I understand this correctly

    Is everything clear now?

    [This message has been edited by LHS* (edited 04-16-2001).]

  19. #59
    KEA
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Thanks Larry for the informative clarificatoin of what I missed on the site and the answers to my questions. Your efforts are appreciated.

    Ooops! I forgot to answer your question.
    Yes, everything is clear now, Crystal clear!
    Thanks for asking.
    ------------------
    Kirk Allen
    First Strike Technologies, Inc

    [This message has been edited by KEA (edited 04-16-2001).]

  20. #60
    ADSN/WFLD
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Larry, I'd just like some clarification you said "282 GPM" 400' 2" lines at a PDP of "190 psi using our hose and nozzles or possibly higher (300 psi)..."

    I just looked at TFT's website and none of the data suggests that you can flow anywhere near that. In fact they state that the dual-force has a range of 70-250 GPM at a nominal pressure of 100 PSI. Where is the rest of the water coming from?
    The best the charts say is with a EP of 250 and 250' of 2" hose you can get 275 GPM on low pressure with a reaction of 139 lbs. How can Rattlesnake extend that line another 150' and lower the pressure 50 lbs and still get more water out?
    Did they modify their $1,000 nozzles?

    Personally I'd take the high flows and lower nozzle reaction of a vindicator.

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