04-14-2001, 02:58 PM #1BIG PAULIEFirehouse.com Guest
The Vindicator , I saw it and it works
Its real interesting to see the altitude used against this Vindicator nozzle. Why is everyone being so hard on a company trying to compete in the nozzle business world? Because it doesn't look like the traditional looking smooth bore or fog nozzle. TFT came out with the Blitz Fire and I didn't hear any whining about it. That thing doesn't look like any fire appliance I have ever seen before yet there is no one talking about it negatively on the forum. Is it because TFT has been around years?
I had the privilege to go to a Vindicator class this week in Lewisville Texas to get a first hand look at what the Vindicator is all about. I was impressed. Kirk does a real thorough job in his presentation. His nozzle does do the flows that he claims.
1-3/4" Snap tite Ponn Conquest 200' 345 gpm
Old 1-3/4" hose (brand unknown but not Conquest 200' 300 gpm. I have done some of the same flows with big smooth bores so why is it not possible for the Vindicator to do the same? Because it looks different? I handled the V at various flows ranging from 200 to 345 on 1-3/4" and 300 to 500 ond 2-1/2" by myself and found it to be a real kick butt nozzle. The nozzle reaction is significantly less at the lower flows than its competitors at the same flow and somewhat less at the higher flows (400 to 500 gpm) It is the best foam aspirating nozzle I have ever seen and it is built directly into the nozzle so you don't even have to clip on the tube. It is ready to go.
If you believe in calibrated flow meters then you will see that this is the real thing.
And talk about a big water master stream attack. This nozzle leaves a footprint that looks like the main body of the stream is hitting the ground. We measured off a 1250 gpm stream of 245 feet. Not bad for a funny looking nozzle.
On a somewhat unrelated topic. What's with all the bad talk about the snap tite ponn Conquest hose. It feels just as light as all other 1-3/4" hose , it looks the same.
I have heard booth sides of the argument on how big this hose really is. Who gives a rats A---. The hose moves a ton of water. Instead of complain about it we should be checking in to getting some.
Because I teach big water stuff I wanted to see first hand if the Vindicator nozzle was something I would like to show in my class along with others(smoothbore and automatics). I am sold on it and will be including it from now on . I recommend that anyone that is truly interested in being on the cutting edge in water movement try to attend a Vindicator class to do so.
This is just my 2 cents.
04-14-2001, 04:51 PM #2LHS*Firehouse.com Guest
Gee Paul, 350 gpm out of a crosslay?
If not was it a real test if almost all fires are fought from crosslays in the US fire service?
If we use different hose than the FD, different EP's different plumbing what have we really proved? Only that it you change everthing you do and never intend to do you could get these results. If the plumbing won't do it who cares what the hose and nozzle combination is capable of? I doubt people will replumb the rig to change nozzles.
And when you flowed a 1 1/4 and 1 3/4" tip on the same line at the same pressure you flowed how much??
When you flowed a fixed flow 50 psi NP 350 gpm fog tip on the same line at the same pressures it flowed?
Which of the streams had better reach? And by how much?
Reach allegedly is a function of NP highest NP wins. What do you give up for lower reaction and higher flow??
//The nozzle reaction is significantly less at the lower flows than its competitors at the same flow
As long as we are being fair, Were all nozzles at the same NP or is this another apples and oranges comparison? When you measured the reaction how much less was it? You know a Scott Cook type test with real certified instruments?
//What's with all the bad talk about the snap tite ponn Conquest hose. It feels just as light as all other 1-3/4" hose , it looks the same.
I think the point was truth in advertising. If you are selling 2 inch hose label it as such. If it is 1 3/4" hose then it shouldn't be larger than 2 inch in diameter should it? So how big was it?
Who cares? Who cares what the nozzle flows or which nozzle has the most reaction? Someone states it has less reaction. Sure it does, the nozzle pressure is lower. The others could have less reaction too if compared apples to apples not apples to oranges. You pay a premium price thinking your getting kick tail top secret hose, when in fact it flows what everyone elseís properly labeled hose flows at a lower cost.
So what do you give up with oversized hose? Drag weight, hose pack weigh more, water weight in the line, remember 2 or 3 guys have to move this thing in most FD's. If those things do no matter, then why should reaction matter? If the hose line beats you up on the way to the fire..will you notice the difference? If the excuse for 1 3/4" is it flows more with less weight than 2" or 2 1/2" and you are using 2 1/8 inch hose is the arguement still valid?
Level field seem fair? Pay less get more? You want the nozzle you have to flow more at less reaction? Send it in to the manufacturer and have them make it lower pressure and higher flowing and keep a bunch of money in your pocket. Or with selector flows and turbo jets you can do it yourself and not spend a dime.
Or throw perfectly good nozzles away and start over. Big Pauley has proved SB and master stream tips as handlines are perfectly capable of flowing big water. Stuff you already own. Now take the next step and modify a few and show the world the difference, seems logical to me..the next step.
There are two sides to the argument.
Gee 345 gpm on a room and contents fire in someone's house eh? WHY?
At what point are you doing water damage and at what point putting the fire out? IS SOMEONE OUT THERE HAVING TROUBLE PUTTING OUT residential room and contents FIRES OUT AT 150 TO 200 GPM??
Well I know where one Vindicator is on almost every fire truck in the department. When they leave the compartments that will be the day many will get in line and sing the praises. The firefighters of the nation's 3rd largest FD have a choice and it seems obvious they are making it, using the nozzles of the 70's, 80's and 90's. Right now it serves only as a foam tip on almost every rig carrying it. Sounds like the firefighers are voting with their actions. Admin is voting 5 to 1 with their budget too. Like there guy said after usig one on a fire you run out of water faster and felt so strongly about it he put it in the union paper. One guys opion but also one guys reality.
Go play with every nozzle and compare equally. The same argument that gets nozzle salesman X in is his argument about your nozzles have an "island in the stream", the next guy comes in and says oh you don't understand we have a "sweet spot" see we flow more at this pressure range, the next guy comes in and compares his 75 psi job and say see that nozzle you just bought without the "island in the stream" doesn't flow water that this nozzle flows and we can beat the guy with the "sweet spot" too, then a guy comes in and says you don't need that flow ring, everyone is going to fixed flow...right after you switch you run out of water on overhaul trying to make a decent low flow stream to reach the eves with the fixed high flow tip, then the next guy comes in and says that 75 psi job can't keep up with my 60 psi job with a bigger hole, Then your guys go out with a Turbo Jet, KK, or Select-o-Flow set at 250 and only pump it at 150 gpm and find out it has the lowest nozzle reaction of any fog nozzle they own at 150 gpm...plus they didn't spend a dime. Then someone sees a smooth bore and goes through the whole thing again. More flow.. less reactionÖless reach but good enough. Then mr fixed flow show up with his "advanced technology nozzle" that looks just like the PDQ of old (45 years go) and tells you about fewer moving parts and how all the nozzles in america are breaking and his costs less...one of your guys says doesn't it cost less to keep what we own, heck we only have one structure fire initial a month...but of course he's blown off,
At some point the reality of the flow ring or automatic comes back to you, your pump operators aren't that good, either the nozzle needs to do the thinking or the nozzleman does turning the ring on the nozzle to make a decent stream.
If you pump what the nozzle charts say the nozzles pretty much do as advertised. Why if you don't pump enough now on your existing nozzles do you think the plague of easy won't take over again on the new nozzle and next thing you know you are pumping to little to it again???
Fixed flow tips unlike automatics and ring controlled flow nozzles need the nozzle pressure to be pretty close to what the nozzle is rated at in order to flow what is advertised and provide the reach and reaction. If your pump operator is off you lose reach, or have a line you can't hold, or end up with less flow than intended.
At some point your pump operator decides to fill his tank and you'll watch your line go to nothing, when it is finally full the line will slap you in the face. The big sin of the automatic or turbo jet style was you always had a great stream just it didnít always flow as much water. So which one you want to give up?
What is worse many combinations result in line kinking because the engine pressures are so low. Like a 200 foot 2 1/2" line with a 1" smooth bore tip. EP is 66 to 70 psi depending on the hydraulics. No relief valve on earth can be set to maintain that pressure. First guy shuts a line off you are over pressurized big time. Soon youíll be hearing the old terms more pressure less pressure again.
I know Paulís FD and surrounding FDís every engineer does his own thing from 100 psi EP to 200 psi EP on the same line ad same fire. It is nationwide. The problem ainít the nozzle it is the operator of the pump and the crew saying that is too much to handle. Soon it isnít an issue of what is in the hydraulics book but what is acceptable peer pressure of the group. Even department SOPs are not followed.
Like I've said a few hundred times, every nozzle on `earth is fighting fire somewhere successfully.
04-14-2001, 06:03 PM #3mongofire_99Firehouse.com Guest
The Vindicator, I saw it and it works
OK. I know what you mean by "I saw it", but what do you mean by "it works"?
It flows the water they say it will flow?
It puts out the fire better than the Elkharts, TFTs, Akrons and smoothbores we already have?
04-14-2001, 06:12 PM #4BIG PAULIEFirehouse.com Guest
Larry, what the hell are you talking about? All I said was that I liked the Vindicator nozzle.
04-14-2001, 06:27 PM #5BIG PAULIEFirehouse.com Guest
Mongo, The nozzle performed well on the drill field. I was satisfied that it flowed the water it s builder claimed it would, I was satisfied it had what felt like a lower nozzle reaction at the flow range I mentioned. I did not mention that the stream in just about all flows equaled or slightly out reached other,(a smooth bore and a automatic) I did not say anything about whether or not it was better than any other make nozzle, and finally a nozzle is only a part of the equation on how well a fire is extinguished. The firefighter still has to perform. It sounds like youhave a firm opinion on this topic . Is it based on looks, propoganda or what? Did you do any flow tests. Are you a firefighter or a salesman? You still don't want to talk about that.
I have not used it on a fire yet but am confident it will do just fine. It sounds like you have a great interest in the Vindicator nozzle. I did so I went to see what it was all about. Give it a chance see what it is and then make your decision.
04-14-2001, 06:45 PM #6mongofire_99Firehouse.com Guest
I did not say anything about whether or not it was better than any other make nozzle
That's why I asked.
The firefighter still has to perform.
It sounds like youhave a firm opinion on this topic.
Nope, just a lot of questions.
Are you a firefighter or a salesman? You still don't want to talk about that.
Firefighter, I've said that on several occasions. Don't sell anything except the stuff I mentioned in the other Vindicator forum (kids fundraiser stuff).
It sounds like you have a great interest in the Vindicator nozzle.
Yep, if Dallas uses them chances are 99% we'll get them.
Give it a chance see what it is and then make your decision.
I will, just getting other info.
04-14-2001, 07:50 PM #7BIG PAULIEFirehouse.com Guest
Mongo, talk to them they are good people. Looking forward to meeting you some day.
04-14-2001, 09:49 PM #8FyredUpFirehouse.com Guest
I continue to wonder why you go off on your tangents about the Vindicator. How can you justify all of your negatvity about that nozzle and then end many of your posts with: "Like I've said a few hundred times, every nozzle on `earth is fighting fire somewhere successfully." If you truly believe that why the attacks on the Vindicator?
I have been in the class / sales presentation done by Kirk Allen. He never once said that the Vindicator was the answer to every situation. He never once said to get rid of everything else. What he did say, and then proved with a calibrated flow meter (I helped calibrate it and I am no stranger to flow meters) is that the Vindicator will flow a lot of water. The added benefit is that the nozzle reaction feels a lot less.
I'm not sure how you can justify your point of not needing 345 gpm in a structure fire as an attack on the Vindicator when I have heard you say here and in your former magazine that one advantage to the automatic was that it vould flow upwards of 350 gpm through a 1 3/4" line. Does that amount of water coming from an auto nozzle do less damage in the hands of a poor nozzle operator than a Vindicator would under similar conditions?
I also love the continual mention of reach as a negative for Vindicators and low pressure combo nozzles. How much reach do I need in a 1500 sq. ft. house? Perhpas if it was totally open inside...40 feet? Are you telling me that I can't flow farther than 40 feet with my low flow combo or a Vindicator? You know as well as I do that is false.
My feeling on this whole nozzle issue is this:
1) Maximize the potential of what you have right now.
2) If there is something you have proven by yourself to be better and you want it...work for the change.
3) Make up your own mind...salespeople and others have agendas to push, whether to sell nozzles or their ideas through consulting, seminars or whatever.
Can you just once, without all of your retoric, tell why you have such a negative attitude about the Vindicator? I hope since you always want fact based answers you can supply fact based answers for this question.
I want to know why you don't like it, not why so and so department doesn't like it. Have you ever used one? Where? At an actual fire or parking lot demo or what?
By the way, I do not now nor have I ever sold any type of fire equipment. Nor do I run a consulting business. My only motives are to seek answers to questions.
04-14-2001, 11:22 PM #9LHS*Firehouse.com Guest
Sorry I was talking about nozzles in general, I agree with you. I don't recall saying anything negative about a vindicator today, please tell me where.
04-15-2001, 12:14 AM #10KEAFirehouse.com Guest
/If we use different hose than the FD, different EP's different plumbing what have we really proved?/
For the record, I do not go to a department trying to prove anything. My primary goal is to educate all of the problems I have encountered in the field. 90% of that has nothing to do with our product.
The referenced classes given in Lewisville, TX were done with their engines (4 engines, 2 Quints, 1 Ladder), their hose (some Conquest some not), their pre-connects (not side discharges) their engine pressures (not our recomendations), and their nozzles.
Every rig reflected different results because of plumbing, hose and nozzles. Pump charts were created specific to each rig for the pre-connects. I would venture to say that any one who were to contact that department about everything involved in moving water they would be quite pleased with what they "Know"!
Also for the record, When I travel and offer classes or demonstrations I typically bring Neidner, Angus, Snap-tite Conquest and National Hose. Why? To show the importance of "KNOWING" your FL by showing the departments the huge difference in FL between manufactures. As far as using one exclusive hose, I simply use what ever the department wants. They are calling the shots!
Which Hose do I prefer? Conquest, just as every other nozzle manufactures salespeople are using! It has less FL than the others and regardless of the claims of hose competitors, it is not 2" hose!
I hope everyone has a happy Easter and may God Bless all of you!
First Strike Technologies, Inc
04-15-2001, 12:48 AM #11LHS*Firehouse.com Guest
Golly, did I say you did???
For the record, I don't care.
04-15-2001, 01:37 AM #12Mikus34Firehouse.com Guest
Paulie, do you have a big V to bring to WA @ the end of the month ?
Thanks for the great class in Bellingham.
(the piercing nozzle guy)
04-15-2001, 10:22 AM #13BIG PAULIEFirehouse.com Guest
Mikus34 Not yet but I am working on it.
04-16-2001, 12:22 AM #14FFSThomasFirehouse.com Guest
Hey Paulie, Thanks for the info I've was hoping you would review it for us. Anyone out there that has not had Paulies class CALL HIM ASAP, outstanding! I was in the class you did behind the LV station a year or two ago, I was working for the Nellis AFB FD at the time.
04-18-2001, 02:04 AM #15DDFirehouse.com Guest
I'm glad to hear that Paulie likes the "V" nozzle, but why not, he's the "Big Water Guy" and that is what it will flow.
04-18-2001, 02:23 PM #16dcfdltFirehouse.com Guest
If the nozzle can flow a greater GPM with the same diameter attack line (1 3/4 or 2)as being demonstrated with reduced NP, then correct me if I'm wrong, but can the diameter of the line can be reduced with the Vin.
Isn't our objective to 1. place a line in service as rapidly as possible with 2. the least amount of personnel on the greatest majority of fires which are room and contents (90%). This can be accomplished with nozzle flows of less than 150 GPM. It would seem to me than this could pave the way for MAYBE 1 1/4, 1 3/8, and the old standard 1 1/2.
The question then becomes one of reduced nozzle reaction albiet with increased FL (b/c of the smaller diameter attack line). Does this mean the EP has to increase proportionately or can the same efficiencies be achieved with a two stage pump? After years of "dumbing down the pump operator" with single stage pumps, were purchasing two stage again. The increased efficiencies are dramatic in terms of decreased work the pump is doing. Maybe someone can clear this up? Thanks ... FTM-STB
04-18-2001, 10:39 PM #17ADSN/WFLDFirehouse.com Guest
Larry: You wrote an article on the Fallon Tip in your June-July 1995 issue of Firefighter news. In that article you said: "Once the emotional issues are put aside and facts replace fallacy and tradition, the nozzle choice becomes clear". So, if its so clear why isnít everyone using it? Want to bet any money that more departments use Vindicators than the Fallon Tip?You also stated in the same article: "The real issue is what works for you!" Why are you so against the Vindicator, which many departments have determined works for them? You go on to state: "In order to incorporate the latest in compressed air foam firefighting technology, smoothbore tips would need to be incorporated into the department." Just curious, why would you use a Fog nozzle to hit a car fire with a deck gun using compressed air foam (Fallon web-page photo)when in your article you reference using CAFS with smoothbores? In closing for that article you state: "By providing the firefighter with one special standardized nozzle and a full selection of tips and flows, depending on the fire situation, backed up with foam if needed, it is believed any situation can be addressed with the "Fallon Tip". Lets not forget that in your article you talk about a clip on foam tip so I guess its not really "One" special nozzle! Lets not stop their. What's the cost of the Fallon tip, what's the cost of the Clip on Foam attachment? Since your so concerned about the department's money why spend more and get less? Lets seeÖ..The Vindicator Heavy Attack operates from 25-125-psi which offer flows we know puts out fires, has a constant automatic flush that far exceeds any NFPA guideline so working from static water sources has never been a problem, works extremely well with foam from 175gpm clear up to over 400gpm, no attachments needed for foam, works with CAFS, gets up to 13.9:1 expansion with AFFF(Only possible with an attachment on the Fallon Tip), can be gated for less flow during overhaul etc, etc, etcÖ.Sounds like every item you outlined in this article is covered pretty darn good by the Vindicator and I would venture to say, although not sure, the Vindicator costs less than the Fallon Tip and it has a Ten year warranty.December 1994 issue of the same magazine. This one I love! You stated: "It is flow, not the hose size that matters". Practice what you preach Larry. Why does the hose size matter only when itís the Vindicator on the end?
April-May issue of the same magazine, which you were the Chief Editor, Paul Shapiro states: "The bottom line being that the more water applied to the fire the faster it can be extinguished. Double the application rate and the fire knocks down twice as fast. Triple the rate and then the speed of knockdown is tripled". Just curious why you would allow such a statement to be printed if your so concerned about water damage. Lets face it Larry, your problem isnít about the nozzles performance. Your own writings from the past make that clear because the nozzle does everything you talk about a nozzle doing. Maybe its just the fact that it wasnít your idea? Who know and who cares! It seam pretty clear to me the nozzle works, even Paul has confirmed that. It has its place and the more you rant and rave about it the more convincing it is that its hear to stay.Last question for you Larry: Why was it OK for Paul to talk about flows of 400-gpm on an attack line in the June-July 1995 issue of Firefighter News but once he talks of less flow with a Vindicator you jump up and start raising concern over that type of flow? Again, the emotion is getting in the way. I would recommend you practice what you preached to Fallon FD. Put you emotional issues aside and let facts replace fallacy and tradition! In case you forgot, those were your words not mine.
04-19-2001, 02:02 AM #18LHS*Firehouse.com Guest
Do you really expect me to answer your questions when you make no effort to answer mine? Dream on, fair is fair.
04-19-2001, 10:19 AM #19BIG PAULIEFirehouse.com Guest
Larry. Take the first step
04-19-2001, 11:04 AM #20LHS*Firehouse.com Guest
OK, all nozzles are fighting fire some place.
04-19-2001, 05:57 PM #21johnusn971Firehouse.com GuestOriginally posted by LHS*:
Do you really expect me to answer your questions when you make no effort to answer mine? Dream on, fair is fair.
04-20-2001, 06:51 PM #22S. CheathamFirehouse.com Guest
Are you teaching the "large caliber streams" class at Baltimore in July for Firehouse and is this how you will flow 350 gpm through a 1 3/4 hose? I am taking that class and can't wait to see your techniques and "tricks of the trade."
04-20-2001, 11:02 PM #23D.C. KronFirehouse.com Guest
If any of you are around Indianapolis, In. this weekend (April 21 & 22) Big Paulie will be teaching "Laying the Big Line". Classes start at 08:30 at Ben Davis High School on the west side of Indy.
Should be a really good class. I'm planning on attending.
Asst Chief Jim Kron
04-21-2001, 10:52 PM #24FyredUpFirehouse.com GuestOriginally posted by LHS*:
OK, all nozzles are fighting fire some place.
That is the only reason I can figure for your in the face attitude about nozzles.
I am also curious...How many places besides Fallon ever adopted the Fallon nozzle? And...in fact do they still use it? If cafs is used on everything there...why not simplify and just use a single size smoothbore?
For the record....I have never told anyone to do what my FD does for hose or nozzles. What I have done is answer people's questions when they ask. I tell them it works for us. Then I tell them the biggest thing is to find out exactly what they want to do and then find the equipment to do it.
04-23-2001, 08:55 PM #25BIG PAULIEFirehouse.com Guest
SCheatham, I will get the 350 plus gpm flows with at least two types of nozzles. The Vindicator is one of them.
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