05-12-2001, 08:14 AM #1e53NSBFirehouse.com Guest
The Truck always gets the "Address"
I'm getting slightly discouraged about all the little disputes going on, examples Vollies vs Career, dinosaurs vs probies, "purple leathers" vs "neon green Bullards" and so on. So I want to start a friendly war, I'm one that definitely believes in the "Truck gets the Address", but my question is, Should it always? We all know that the words "always" & "all the time" are dangerous words. But we do have some people who believe this is a good practice for adequate truck company ops. I'm talking about a single story, residential about 1200sqft., the house has only about a 30' set back off the street, the nearest exposure is about 50' on all sides. You arrive and find fire showing from the #1 side, not much at this time, but definitely has the potential to extend into the attic. Its a daytime job, Sunday about 1500hrs. Now paint yourself a good picture. The front/back yards are completely trashed, you can barely walk on them, let alone effectively stretch your preconnect. There are two vehicles up on blocks, a couple others in the roadway, bushes, trees, spare tires, toys, old lawn mowers, and lets throw in an old rusty broken fence, all as potential obstacles for your initial stretch. Remember, we have to get water on the fire fast, our size-up tells us that this is an occupied dwelling, but everybody seems to be out at this time. You arrive with a 3 man engine company, which has plenty of experience and training on the fireground. No matter how many times you've trained on stretching, this one is going to be tough. I hope all you truckies will defend your spot!! Remember guys, this is suppose to be friendly, and use your imagination on the scenerio. Also remember that good communication is always essential to a good fireground operation, even in this scenario.
05-12-2001, 10:08 AM #2Brian DunlapFirehouse.com Guest
Yeah the Stretch is going to be difficult but the Truck Company Should always have the Front of the Structure !! Engine Boys need to get creative in this situation --- Our Company it's a little easier we carry 250' of 1 3/4" on the 100' KME Ladder Truck -- This Truck usually makes the Attack along with doing the Ladder Work prior to the Engines Arriving
STRATFORD FIRE CO. # 1 NEW JERSEY STATE FIREMEN'S CONVENTION OVER-ALL CHAMPIONS 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998, and 2000 !!
05-12-2001, 10:28 AM #3spo0kFirehouse.com Guest
I work at a department that only has an engine company (and two medics) so I suppose I would be considered an engine boy.
I agree that the truck should have the front of the structure. The ladder is a fixed length, you can't extend it, but the hose can always be added to. It is much easier to lay some hose through trees/over fences/etc than to extend a ladder through these obstacles.
As for situations where aerial operations will not be possible (excessive power lines, trees/other obstacles) then the engine might as well take the front of the building to cut down on pressure loss, but this positioning should only be considered if the engine company notices pulling up that it will not be at all possible to raise the aerial.
FF. Mike Burnes
Whitehall Fire Division
05-12-2001, 01:39 PM #4CLWFWFDFirehouse.com Guest
The Truck should have the front as was stated before, in its fixed length. But in your senerio, single story residental, the Engine takes the inside and the Truck takes the outside because it is less than five stories.(IFSTA Pumping Apparatus Driver Operator).
[This message has been edited by CLWFWFD (edited 05-13-2001).]
05-12-2001, 01:49 PM #5CaptainCarpFirehouse.com Guest
I feal that the truck sould take the corner of the structure on any building regardless of construction or size. This gives the engine the best position to mount a attack on the fire. The positioning on the corners gives the truck two sides to work with giving them more options for op's. With the structure being 30' of the road most trucks have 100' some 75'. This will give the trucks plenty of reach to operate. Let's talk about transitional attacks. If you arrive on a 75% or 50% involvement and operate a deck gun what is the best position for the first due engine? past the structure? in front of the structure? Doing this for several years it has been my experience that it's easier to move the stick and ground ladders than it is to stop the flow of water to add another 50' to the attack line.
These are my fealings and mine alone. But I would like to hear from the truckies as to what advantages there are to placement on the address.
Stay safe and remember that CHAOS stands for Chief Has Arrived On Scene just joking don't get mad.
05-12-2001, 05:04 PM #6ADSN/WFLDFirehouse.com Guest
I prefer the truck in front of the building. If for no other reason the truck is your tool box on wheels, and the closer to the front it is, the easier it will be to get what you need.
Being a single story I'd probably not use the main for roof access, but ground ladders and tools are now just 30' away from the structure.
On larger structures having the truck in front makes the climb and dismount of the ladder easier and safer then if it were on an angle to the building, for a tower it's not as big an issue (since most buckets have doors on the corners of them)
Remember if on a taller building you see a known rescue line up the turntable with the victim. If you have a tower ladder just make sure the victim will be in the scrub area.
[This message has been edited by ADSN/WFLD (edited 05-12-2001).]
05-13-2001, 01:32 PM #7ENG92INEFirehouse.com Guest
At this scenario I'd give the address to the Engine. The house is small enough that it would be more worthwhile to throw ladders rather that putting an aerial into use. You also then have access to your deck gun to use as your master stream if needed. Just because we have a ladder on our truck does not mean that we can't use conventional methods anymore such as throwing a simple set of ladders to work on a small SFD. Sometimes we need to use what is the quickest means of action such as a quick leed out and a sufficient set of ground ladders to work on a small SFD. Sometimes we would benefit more from a fast leed out than we would from have aerial use. It is a situation based scenario. Now of course there always could be different situations (ie. steep pitch, fire in the attic of a trussed roof, etc.) that you would really benefit from working off of a tip vs. a roof ladder. I just feel that at times we make situations more difficult than they need be. Nothing should ever be set in stone. Now with that said, the truck should always get the address at a fire.
05-14-2001, 08:55 AM #8jizumper-5Firehouse.com Guest
I would also have to agree on the Truck getting the address. I am not going to repeat the justifications already stated. However, I will add that with the Engine driving past the structure (assuming it is the 1st to arrive) the Engine officer can see 3 sides and better size up the situation. In my experience you always seem to have 2 extremes, either the house is right on the street and an extra 25' added to the hose is nothing to worry about or the house is set so far back you need a leader line any way.
This is simply an issue of common tactics, knowing full well that there is always an exception to the rule.
05-14-2001, 11:31 AM #9Truckie5553Firehouse.com Guest
Well im sure by looking at my name its easy to tell im a truckie. I have been riding truck for the past 5 years and i love it. In this situation there are some variables that are being missed. First off, where is your closest hydrant. The first engine in needs to make sure the water source they select is not going to hinder access to the rest of the area allowing proper placement of the next in units. On the comment of one of the above posts about in this senerio with the engine taking inside and the truck on the outside, i think this is a bad situation. If your engine is a squrt like my departments, and you put the aerial up, then you have pinned your squrt to the bed. On this incident, i would throw ground ladders first, but always keep that aerial close. Never tie your hands by saying, oh this is just a single story home, we can just use ground ladders. Dont forget, you have a yard full of junk and it may not be safe or efficient to try to move ground ladders into place. Maybe they can, but the point is dont get caught with your hands in your pocket. My other reason for the truck taking the address is the fact of it being a toolbox on wheels. Everything you could need from hand tools, to PPV, to hydraulic tools is on this unit. Put it close to utlize it the way its meant to be used. So engine boys, roll on by that address, give it to the truck. You have 200' of hose that you can add onto in the matter of seconds, when i use my 100' of ladder, thats as much as i can give you. Just keep that in mind the next time you are in the engine and want to keep from pulling that extra hose. Its always better to have more that you need, than need it and not have it.
Stay safe and remember to use RIT and FAST! It is for us and our own safety.
Captain James Collier
McMahan Fire Rescue
KCTCS Area 6 Instructor
05-14-2001, 11:43 AM #10e53NSBFirehouse.com Guest
Finally, a "Truckie" that can type, you must of learned that when you were on the engine. I really do agree with all the above, I just want to make this intersting.
05-14-2001, 12:58 PM #11ALSfirefighterFirehouse.com Guest
I'm also a truckie who says they should get the front, but you also have to remember every situation is different. While I say the front, I always look to grab a corner also, or position the truck so it is at the safest and easiest angle to work off of. While ground ladders should be thrown, where I am at, we attempt to work off of the aerial on peaked roof ventilation as much as possible due to truss roof construction. Like my brother truckies said, you can't add ladder length, but you can add more hose, plus for me I have to add in the generator/power cords, etc. Is that stretch sound a little tough..sure, but I have to add 2 things. First is, as a truckie, I'd be in there with a can and see if I can put it out or at least contain it some. Secondly, when you stretch your hose, do it while its dry and get it ready, or if all else, when its charged put one of those big loops we've all learned in the academy or class. If there are power lines I/F/O the place, or its not feasible to do vertical ventilation due to fire location then the Ladder Operator can assist with setting up the stretch. The last thing is, almost every fire needs water fast, remember the saying what you do in the first 5 minutes can dictate the next 5 hours. Size it up right, and set it up right, and you should still be okay. Remember move quickly, not fast, and never run, you can miss something important, or even worse, shorten your life by 30 seconds if its your last box.
The above is my opinion only and doesn't reflect that of any dept./agency I work for, deal with, or am a member of.
05-14-2001, 01:08 PM #12Bob SnyderFirehouse.com Guest
I won't repeat some of the other things already said, but let me add a little...
I'd phrase it this way:
The truck always gets priority on the position from which it can best deploy.
More often than not, that means that the truck gets the front (side 1 center), but not always. The engine operator needs to position with this in mind, as well as thinking about his/her supply, where the hand lines will go, etc. Power lines, trees, road pitch or condition, and other factors can make the front unsuitable for aerial operations. Sometimes there are no other good options when the front is unsuitable, but when there are, the truck should take them. For example, if side 1 is poorly pitched and under a mess of wires and side 3 is level and clear, put the truck on side 3. there isn't really anything magical about "the front", other than that it provides a convenient rule of thumb.
As far as throwing ground ladders goes, it's a necessary part of the operation. However, I always like to have the stick up there too...between cheap-and-shoddy building construction, poor building condition, and other problems that can pop up, having that stick there to jump on (or work from) can be a life saver.
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