Dalmation90 you made some very good points. I have no problem admitting that. Right now our department has 3 combo nozzles and 1 straight bore on our preconnects. We probably should keep it that way.
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05-19-2001, 10:58 AM #21NY SmokeyFirehouse.com Guest
05-19-2001, 12:28 PM #22NFDLT55Firehouse.com Guest
Every hose line in my department has a combination nozel EXCEPT the high rise pack. I'd rather enter with a combination because of the following:
1. I can use the straight stream to knock down the fire whenever warranted, or vice versa
2. Immediate ventilation. Once the fire has been knocked down, theres no way you are going to be able to vent hydraulically with a straight stream, only a fog pattern. I like both so I would much rather go in with a combination nozel. Its the best of both worlds.
05-19-2001, 01:56 PM #23LHS*Firehouse.com Guest
Great post Matt!
05-20-2001, 09:40 AM #24Dalmatian90Firehouse.com Guest
You mean we actually get along occasionally here
05-20-2001, 12:36 PM #25E229LtFirehouse.com Guest
Your comments about the FDNY,
//"And they knock off more guys too! They just started to provide EMS, wear bunker pants, buy imagers, etc, so they a few decades behind the rest of fire service, let's not hold that against them.
Fire activity isn't something to brag about it is a living example of a failure to perform the whole task of the fire service. Try a few codes and sprinklers. //"
How can you put your foot in your mouth when your head is up your ***?
05-20-2001, 04:25 PM #26LHS*Firehouse.com Guest
Very intelligent post on this topic, the truth sucks don't it?
[This message has been edited by LHS* (edited 05-20-2001).]
05-20-2001, 06:56 PM #27E229LtFirehouse.com Guest
The fact that you would knock any department based on the loss of brother firefighters has brought you below any and all of the bean counters, administrators and budget makers of every municipality in the nation.
The very men we choose to never forget for their sacrifices, you have chosen to use in an attempt to place a black mark on one of the finest departments on the planet.
I ask anyone on this forum to support your statement in regards to the FDNY, and I quote "And they knock off more guys too! "
You have shamed our fallen, their families and yourself. I once read your posts with an open mind, I was foolish. You are a hack and have no place in the fire community.
If you want to knock a department, begin with your own. They have placed you among their ranks and for that they should be ashamed.
05-20-2001, 08:57 PM #28LHS*Firehouse.com Guest
"Well your either rude or from New York." A quote from a movie. I never figured you could stay on topic. The topic is nozzles.
Just because FDNY has lots of fires or does something is no reason for the rest of the fire service to emulate them. Certainly nozzle choice or the size of the hose it is attached to would not make much sense.
FDNY doesn't even use the same nozzles as Philly the 2nd busiest firefighting department. But let's not confuse runs with firefighting experience. Less than 3% of Phillys runs were structure fires. Each shift only averages 14 structure fire initial attacks per station, per year. I know most of the Volunteers see that kind of action. Philly only averages 32 multple alarm fires a year. Divide that by 3.3 shifts and 60 some odd stations. We are talking about something most of their firefighters rarely see. FDNY's numbers work out the same way. However, Philly's civilian death and injury numbers are 5 to 14 times higher than anyone elses.
Chicago doesn't agree with your choice in nozzles nor do all the places I previously mentioned. Odds are E229lt you don't know why you use the hose or nozzle sizes you use either, other than they are on the rig. The average Joe in a big city department doesn't have much if any say in those matters, now does he?
In the suburbs and small towns in the US most of us have a say. Most of the world does not place 30 guys on scene in a few minutes, nor vent in front or above the attack crew.
The world of 3 to 6 guy initial attacks is where most fire departments live. We use preconnects, you don't. We forward lay your reverse lay...and it goes on and on. Other communities follow and enforce the codes and live with modern construction, that is the norm.
With all FDNY's fires and alleged experience just think how many guys the rest of the fire service would knock off following the same tactics with 3 to 6 guys on scene? Even with all that so called hard to verify fire experience and written SOPS you all have not figured out what tip or hose to use without fatal consequences. If the fire service is going to base a nozzle choice on something it better be for more than "FDNY uses them."
Part of honoring the dead is to make sure something was learned and equipment or procedures changed to make sure we don't repeat the same mistakes.
Think about it.
05-21-2001, 01:05 PM #29Fireboy422Firehouse.com Guest
#1- For all of you who could stay on topic, thank you for your input.
#2- For those of you who say I needed to do some research before I start asking questions, what better way to learn than from the people who actually use the equipment/tactics? I am a rookie and am only trying to learn my job better so I can help the people that depend on me better. I don't appreciate the attacks.
-FF D. Betka
Norton Shores, MI
05-21-2001, 01:06 PM #30StaylowFirehouse.com Guest
It is always the "arm-chair quarterback" who has all the right answers.
Too all the brothers in New York, forget what you have been doing. According to these posts your experience is not credible and you don't know what you are doing. Stop listening to guys like Andy Fredericks and Vincent Dunn. They have no idea what they are talking about. Remember, their experience is not credible.
Take notes from the arm-chair quarterbacks on these posts and change your ways. These are the guys that have the "real" experience and knowledge. Remember, they have all done what you do, and this makes them more that qualified to tell you how backwards and incompetent you are. But remember, just because the arm-chair quarterback says it should be done a certain way based on his god-like knowledge and supreme experience does not mean he is correct either.
Good luck Brothers!
05-21-2001, 01:11 PM #31Fireboy422Firehouse.com Guest
Ugh!!!!!!!!! That's it, I'm tired of hearing all the bickering between you guys!!! If you want to **** and moan about what other departments are doing, start another post!!! I'm just trying to gain some knowledge and hopefully some other people will read this and learn something too. If you have a beef with something other people are doing, take it somewhere else, I'll go there if I want to read it, right now I don't want to hear it!!!
-FF D. Betka
Norton Shores, MI
05-21-2001, 03:29 PM #32ADSN/WFLDFirehouse.com Guest
To stay on topic, at my full time gig we have 15/16th smooth bore on all 1.75" lines. About half of those have a fog tip screwed onto the tip. Generally we remove the fog nozzle and go with the smooth bore. For our 2.5" lines we have 1 1/4" tips with a 250gpm tip screwed on the end. Again we usually go with the smooth bore.
At my part time department we run almost all Vindicators. The only smoothbore is on the deck gun. With the arrival of our new LaFrance even the deck gun will be a vindicator.
As for the side post, It has been my observations that most everything that comes out of FDNY is considered gospel. Because they have far more experience than any of us. If you look at the run stats from New York you'll see that most of the companies have about the same amount of "workers", and that numbers in the thousands. http://www.nyfd.com/history/engine_runs.html
For many of our communities 1,000 fires in a year would leave our town a pile of embers. Keep up the good work in the big apple and let God look after our families while we are away.
05-21-2001, 04:25 PM #33LHS*Firehouse.com Guest
////If you look at the run stats from New York you'll see that most of the companies have about the same amount of "workers", and that numbers in the thousands.
Letís use initial attack structure fires. Workers include cars, trash can outside, grass fires, rubbish, etc.
The official web page stated they average engine company and shift had 7 initial attack structure fire responses per month.
Yes, there are small town USAís doing that, close to that and more. More importantly in the context of nozzle choice and selection, the small town USA is doing that in their buildings, their construction, their apparatus, their water system or lack of one, with their people, with their tactics, with their staffing, with their lack of venting or venting.
So what is a better choice, chose the nozzle based on FDNY or on your own needs and challenges?
If FDNY is your choice, hand over extrication and rescue services to your local sheriff or cops, change all your threads from National Standard to New York thread, throw your plastic helmets away, remove your preconnects, use lightweight aerials with zero tip load rating, only buy pumpers, aerials and ladders from one vendor, get rid of your volunteers or 24 hours shifts, afterall New York City does it!
I'm sure they have a reason for whatever they do, it just might not apply nicely where you live.
05-21-2001, 05:00 PM #34mtperryFirehouse.com Guest
Didn't think you could cause a ruckus talking about nozzles did you? It always amazes me what people can get bent out of shape over. I didn't get a chance to read all the replies but I will tell you what we do. We run a wide variety of call types including modern light-weight constructon, some comercial, older farm style homes, barns, tons of mobile homes, grass fires, forest fires, and lots of wild-land urban interface. Our use between Smooth-Bore and Automatic varies greatly depending on the call type. We have a new squad with CAFS and I think it is proven that Smooth-Bore is the way to go with CAFS for the best product. We do carry an Automatic on it though. On our engine we have Automatics for interior attack, we think it is best to have the diversity the Automatic provides while inside (fog, straight, little water, a lot of water, hydro-vent etc.). I think it also depends on how involved the structure is too. If the structrue is well involved and there is a primary all clear, and we need to get this thing now, we will use the CAFS with smooth-bores inside. Our engine also has a smooth bore preconect for exterior fires that need penitration like sheds, wood piles, hay stacke etc. It also has one Class A foam preconect with a Bubble Cup Nozzle. Our Water Tender also has both an automatic and a smooth-bore preconect and a forestry nozzle preconect too. As I said we have a variety of call type and a varity of nozzle types. Seems to make sense and it works for us. My advice to you is keep an open mind, look at what other depts. are doing, don't let the guys on here with bicips bigger then their brains get to you, and most importantly use what works best for your department with your call type and construction type. Good luck and hope this helps.
05-21-2001, 06:03 PM #35TruckmanFirehouse.com Guest
I think it was said best when the issue of performing tests came out. All you have to do is pick up a copy of Firehouse or Fire Engineering to see departments all over the U.S. performing tests on SBs'. The fact is that many people are realizing that this is a tool that many firefighters, including myself, want in the box.
In my opinion, I like SBs'. In straight stream, automatics have not proven to me to hold the same quality stream as a SB. Remember that fog nozzles always push air, even in straight stream.
But, when is a solid bore most important? High flows. Flows greater than 200gpm. If you need more than 200, then you need a hose bigger than a 1 3/4 and a nozzle that will allow pressures to make the line operable.
A 2 1/2 inch line 200ft long with a 1 1/4 inch tip will produce 300gpm at 86psi engine discharge pressure.
Now as for low pressure nozzles, most departments, that I know of, are not using them , because they are not going to go out and replace their inventory based on a 25psi difference in nozzle pressure.
The reality of the steam production is that most firefighters are taught the indirect attack with a fog or to set their patterns at 30 - 45 degrees, stick it in a room of fire and wip it arround (remember the "O" and "T" patterns?). Thus creating the steam effect. Direct and combination attacks just don't seem to be high on the list. It is not until later that a firefighter learns either on his own or from good veterans the value of adjusting patterns, minimizing water usage and the overall capability of the nozzle.
Good Luck, Be Safe
[This message has been edited by Truckman (edited 05-21-2001).]
05-21-2001, 06:27 PM #36Dalmatian90Firehouse.com Guest
1995 saw 3,905 "serious" fires (all-hands working or multiple alarms)
That year they where running about 210 Engines (Today that's 203 Engines & 7 Squads).
3,905 / 210 engines & Squads = Average engine was 1st due on 18.5 Workers. (Some companies a lot more, some a lot less.)
FDNY Operates 4 platoons. 18.5 working fires / 4 = 4.6 times a year a particular platoon of a particular engine is first in on a fire. If you figure on shifts off on vacation, out sick, etc the average firefighter on an Engine by the stats is first due about 4 or 5 working fires a year. 4 Engines (?) on the 1st Alarm...a firefighter on a typical engine rolls to 16-20 working fires a year, plus a handful of multiple alarms.
There's 143 Ladders, so their first due on a worker about 27 times each year, divide by 4 means a Truckie's first due about 7 times a year.
Certainly certain companies see *a lot* more action. With 5 Rescues running on all the workers, an Firefighter on a Rescue will see about 195 Workers, and with the 7 Squads doing 1st due at home and running on all workers firefighters see about 157 Workers.
49 Battalions see the average Battalion Chief 1st due on about 20 workers a year.
I'm not knocking FDNY -- and there is some individual companies that see a hell of a lot more action then most of us will ever see...but there's a lot of firefighters and officers who don't see more, or much more, than many of us do, either.
But what they know how to do is to fight fires in a congested Northeastern city where most of the buildings are pre-1950, and large sections from early 20th Century built in a hurry to handle the crush of immigration.
With 321 square miles, it's something like 1.5 square miles per firehouse. Much of the nation is doing well to make the ISO of 7 Square miles (roughly) Engine and 19.5 Square mile (roughly) Ladder truck spacing.
That gives FDNY probably about 4.5 times the density of fire apparatus of most places other than other congested, northeastern cities (and a handful of scattered old cities like San Francisco and Chicago). Add to it 5 man Engines and 6 man Trucks, they can consistently arrive sooner and with more manpower then just about anyone else.
Many moderately busy vollie stations and small career departments that call back personnel will see close to the number of fires an average New York firefighter does. Say an average Engine man sees 20 workers in NYC last year...I ran on 7. Some members in our department hit 10 or 12.
What's the big difference then? FDNY can put more firefighters on scene faster and more consistently. Even when we average 18 members daytime working fires and 36 members evening working fires, tactics and what you can do change dramatically if it's 2 in the afternoon and know those 18 members and going to take 15 minutes to assemble and the next in mutual aid engine is five miles away, versus 8:15 in the evening during a meeting and we have every truck leaving the station filled in 90 seconds. Yep, FDNY may just about always use a smooth bore and VES. They also just about always arrive with 30 firefighters or more within a few minutes of the alarm.
That it works for them is great, but people shouldn't blindly follow them without realizing the conditions in which that set of tools & tactics was developed.
Stats where from: http://members.aol.com/fd347/fdnystat.htm (Data to 1995)and http://www.ci.nyc.ny.us/html/fdny/ht...ral/facts.html (Data from FY '98-99)
And I rounded/guessitimated some of the numbers, but their good enough for government work
05-22-2001, 12:44 PM #37ADSN/WFLDFirehouse.com Guest
So what you guys are saying is that only the first due engine does anything?
You can't get any experience on a backup line or a second stretch?
On a 10-75 FDNY gets 4 Engines, 2 Ladders, 2 Chiefs and 1 Rescue
That means that the average for an engine is to go to 580 structure fires in a year, and that is just regular structure fire. No multiple alarms, no outside fires.
I guess that would put the average New York firefighter at more fires in one year than many of us see in 10. I still stand behind what I said earlier.
"If FDNY is your choice, hand over extrication and rescue services to your local sheriff or cops, change all your threads from National Standard to New York thread, throw your plastic helmets away, remove your preconnects, use lightweight aerials with zero tip load rating, only buy pumpers, aerials and ladders from one vendor, get rid of your volunteers or 24 hours shifts, after all New York City does it!"
If we were as busy as FDNY then perhaps we wouldn't do as much as we do. Is their anything wrong with the police assisting with rescues or pin-ins? Many parts of the country have separate rescue organizations. The thread thing is a bit odd, but not too long ago we had Chicago thread adapters because of some of the hydrants in our area we not updated yet. I personally miss my leather helmet. We run a reverse leadout so most of what we do is off of the main bed. NY's areal selection works well for them. Setting up two outriggers is much easier than finding the room for 4 on a crowded city street. They also use their equipment, how many of us have preformed rescued with our aerials more than once or twice. I'll be the first to admit it my department hasn't done a rescue from the areal in the last 20 years, anyone in need of rescue was close enough to get with ground ladders. When rigs are purchased from one vendor they are easier to maintain by the shops. KC has all E-One, so does Boston, and looking at the website so does Fallon. We got rid of our volunteers, may years ago, our tax bas is large enough to provide full time firefighters.
And lastly If the salary was the same I'd go to New York's schedule in a heartbeat. $57,000 for a 56 hour work week or $57,000 and work a 42 hour work week. Never have to miss a holiday with your family. Yep that sounds terrible.
05-22-2001, 08:30 PM #38E229LtFirehouse.com Guest
Can I assume from the end of your post, if NFPA 1710 were adopted in your area, you would switch to SB?
05-22-2001, 10:38 PM #39Dalmatian90Firehouse.com Guest
1710 isn't even a vague possibility, since the staffing level required of 15 +/- per shift, four platoons since we're in the Northeast, plus a handful for good measure for sick time, days off, outside training, etc without a lot of overtime would be about 70 people. Our School system employees 58 teachers. Even bringing up the current stations to that staffing level might not be enough to cover the geography to give us response times within NFPA 1710 without an additional station & staff to go with it.
Ok, so we got the consistent levels of staffing and response times. Now the next question becomes whats the hazard.
Do we have the unknown of life? Very, extremely rarely. We don't have apartments where people don't know each other; we don't have people who move around frequently. We're in a community where most kids need to be driven to go visit a friend. And if the family tells you everyone's out, you can rely on that information. If you're told everyone's out, what is the reward to go with the risks of aggressive VES and searching ahead of hoselines and above the fire?
Ok, so let's engage in a VES attack.
If we're comfortable in knowing our nozzles and their use (and having 70 full time firefighters each divided into four platoons handling about 2 calls a day department wide, they should have plenty of time to train). Why not use an automatic combination still?
Well, we could get rust/debris from a standpipe. Hmmm, we have two standpipe systems in our town. One is a brand new 4 story high-end elderly housing complex where most of the apartments are larger than my house. Not much chance of vandalism there, and at 4 stories it is the closest we come to a high rise. The other is the Correctional Center, and the chance of vandalism is so great by SOP we will not use their standpipe and stretch our own lines in 300-500' then use the gated-wye to handlines.
Nope, don't see us having much need for smoothbores even if we had the staffing to conduct VES if appropriate.
05-22-2001, 11:15 PM #40Dalmatian90Firehouse.com Guest
You can't get any experience on a backup line or a second stretch?
On a 10-75 FDNY gets 4 Engines, 2 Ladders, 2 Chiefs and 1 Rescue
That means that the average for an engine is to go to 580 structure fires in a year, and that is just regular structure fire.
Well, somewhere the numbers aren't adding up...
There's 29,460 "Structure Fires" a year. Most of these are smaller fires that don't rise to the level of being an "All-hands" a/k/a Working Structure fires since there is only 3,900 of those.
Even taking into account 2d, 3d, and 4th in...yes, you get some more experience. But is it that much more than many smaller departments?
3,900 workers. Divide by 210 Engines & Squads is 18 times first due, divide again by 4 platoons of firefighters...is 4.6 workers a year. Multiply by 4 since there's four engines on the 1st alarm, your back up to 18 times an average Jake saw a significant amount of fire.
Doing the same math with 29,000 structure fires off all types, including I assume mattresses, ovens, partition fires, etc, you're running 1st due 138 times a year and on the first alarm to 550 times a year.
Are those numbers way out of line?
New York has a population of 8,000,000 with 4,000 workers -- 1 for every 2,000 people. My town had 3 last year (excluding mutual aid), with a population of 7,000 or 1 for every 2,300 and that's kinda a typical year. NYC had a total of 60,000 fire incidents (excluding MFAs), or 1 for every 133 residents. My town has about 75 total fire calls, or 1 for every 93 residents. I betcha y'all find those statistics on fires per population hold up fairly consistently.
So an "average" engine is 1st due on workers a little bit less than 5 times a year, and gets to a worker 18 times a year. My little town saw 3 structures in town and 7 mutual aid fires last year. Since we don't run shifts, most of the firefighters had oppurtonity to make most of them, so most saw 8-10 fires. There isn't that much of a difference there. FDNY may run more "structure" fires in total per man, but in our area, many of those don't rise to the level that triggers automatic mutual aid so the first alarm is never sent and only the first due station with a couple engines and rescue or ladder goes.
There are some helluva busy companies whose members see a lot of fire. Some strategically located Engines & Trucks; certainly the Rescues and Squads. But there is also a lot of companies that don't. Collectively FDNY acquires a lot of experience, but it's experience in fighting fires in their city, with their staffing, with their water supplies, with their buildings.
(And these stats aren't picking on FDNY. Apply the same comparisons to any department around the nation -- you'll find most cities have a few very busy units, and a lot who exist mainly because they need the geographic coverage and not because of the fire-load in their territory. *Not* that there's anything wrong with providing your citizens a consistent level of protection!)
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