Who said the fire would only go out with a smoothbore? I happen to think it will go out faster and with less work by using a smoothbore. You seem to take the approach they will only go out using your brand of nozzle...Did I Strike a nerve? My last experience on an "automatic nozzle" was on a ladder truck, with a local dept, it was advertised as being a 2,000gpm nozzle. fair enough. We tried to flow it at 2,000. When the stream hit about 1600gpm it started acting up. When we looked into it we were informed by the rep that it was "adjusted" to have agood stream between 1,000-1,500gpm, because that was where it would usually end up.However it could be re-adjusted,( would that make it a semi-automatic?)That is a pretty true statement, arranging flows of over 1500gpm for a single unit on the fireground can get involved. But it would seem to me that the theory of " a good stream at any gpm using an automatic nozzle" didn't really hold up in this case, and it's not the first time. Which is one of the reasons why I would prefer a gpm adjustable nozzle over an automatic. I'll admit, getting a good stream over a 750-2000gpm range is a pretty daunting task for a nozzle mfg. In this case it is now irrelevant since this truck carries an selection of stacked tips on it and the automatic stays in the compartment.
[This message has been edited by BLACKSHEEP-1 (edited 06-22-2001).]
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Thread: How effective is this stream?
06-22-2001, 03:35 PM #41BLACKSHEEP-1Firehouse.com Guest
06-22-2001, 04:09 PM #42mongofire_99Firehouse.com Guest
Who said the fire would only go out with a smoothbore?
OK then to be fair, what does this statement of yours mean?
"The nozzles do just too good of a job breaking up water for indirect type attacks. Even on straight stream it just won't do it."
What is the it that an auto or other fog operating and flowing the proper pattern and volume won't do?
I happen to think it will go out faster and with less work by using a smoothbore.
Now you've stated an opinion like an opinion, not like a fact like you did previously.
You seem to take the approach they will only go out using your brand of nozzle...
Never said that. In fact I said these fires are put out in the same short order with autos and smoothbores. And we use both.
...Did I Strike a nerve?
Not at all.
As to the rest of what you wrote, no experience with having to re-adjust an auto so I can't comment on that. Sounds like you were BS'd by a rep though.
And I noticed you still didn't answer any of the questions...
06-22-2001, 10:52 PM #43StaylowFirehouse.com Guest
It's clear to me that the more concentrated stream and better penetration of the smoothbore nozzle would work more efficiently in this situation than the automatic's straight stream. But, if you want to use the other options out there, no problem. This is a personal preferance call that needs to be made by those who are faced with the task.
06-23-2001, 09:32 AM #44BLACKSHEEP-1Firehouse.com Guest
I think I've said this already, if I pulled a handline for this fire, it would be a 330gpm 1-1/4 tip at 50 psi with 125lbs reaction force, 2 guys can move that line. I would do this for reach and penetration. If, there was a problem with pressure they can change the tip size, but at some point they will not flow enough water to put this out. So let me get this straight your saying that it's ok not to have enough pressure because an auto matic makes the stream better? So it's the looks of the stream not gpm that puts the fire out? One guy recomended flowing 380gpm on this from a 1-3/4 line? that's 190 lbs of reaction force on a 100psi nozzle,218psi of friction loss,(PER 100FT!!) lets see now, 318 psi on the panel... if you are at draft you've just made your 1,000gpm pumper capable of less than 500gpm....skip the backup line, or maybe use a booster. It's rural, maybe you get forestry to do an air drop. I was going to e-mail a buddy about you automatic guys, but I couldn't remember if anal-retentive had a hyphen.
[This message has been edited by BLACKSHEEP-1 (edited 06-23-2001).]
06-23-2001, 12:30 PM #45mongofire_99Firehouse.com Guest
So let me get this straight your saying that it's ok not to have enough pressure because an auto matic makes the stream better?
How did you come up with that?
So it's the looks of the stream not gpm that puts the fire out?
How did you get that?
Especially since us either-nozzle-will-work-fine-when-properly-flowed guys will state clearly, plainly and repeatedly that either nozzle properly flowed and operated is suitable for this fire.
I realize that you want the 2.5" with the 1.25" tip. Not a bad selection and it will work just as well as the line in the picture when and if both are flowed properly.
But what would your line make better with the pressure these guys had when the pic was taken?
And you still didn't answer any of the questions...
Maybe the buddy you were going to email could help you with the answers...
06-23-2001, 04:04 PM #46BLACKSHEEP-1Firehouse.com Guest
Let's make this real simple for you, if you have a smoothbore and not enough pressure you can go to a smaller tip and usually get the stream back, If you have a gpm adjustable fog and not enough pressure you can go to a lower gpm setting and usually get the stream back. If you have an automatic you better pray that it has a wide enough operating band to operate with less pressure, because there is nothing you can do to as a nozzleman to help yourself. Now at some point you will get to the fact that you are not flowing enough water to extinguish the fire and of course that's going to be a problem. Now if I'm going to put the most amount of water on the fire, with the least amount of personnel it's going to be with a smooth bore nozzle, not that there is no place for fogs, there is, but I intend to put this out, not mist it. There are fogs out there and water does come out of the end, but they come with a price in reaction force, and I've illustrated that when you use them on a small enough line and try to force a lot of water through them that you will eventually pay the price in pumping capacity as well. I've also illustrated that automatics are not capable of covering large ranges in pressure ,as is sometimes advertised,in another prior post. Now, if you go back through the past communication(s), you will find that your questions have been answered, sometimes several times.
[This message has been edited by BLACKSHEEP-1 (edited 06-23-2001).]
06-23-2001, 05:11 PM #47mongofire_99Firehouse.com Guest
if you have a smoothbore and not enough pressure you can go to a smaller tip and usually get the stream back
OK, now that it's simple.
We know that the pressure is way too low (at least most of us do), so with that in mind, what size smoothbore tip makes the flow in the picture an effective stream for this fire?
I'll admit that there isn't an smoothbore, auto or adjustable fog that can turn the pressure they have into an effective stream for the fire presented.
You'll say it all day about an auto or adjustable, do you have the eggs to admit your smoothbore is in the same category in this case?
If you have a gpm adjustable fog.... because there is nothing you can do to as a nozzleman to help yourself.
So you've gotten yourself in over your head and you have a ****-poor inneffective stream with all three nozzles.
Now if I'm going to put the most amount of water on the fire, with the least amount of personnel it's going to be with a smooth bore nozzle,...
How much do you want to put on it? You've been talking about 330gpm. We can (you can too) put 500gpm in service in the same short amount of time with one person on a 2.5", smoothbore or auto, doesn't matter.
not that there is no place for fogs, there is, but I intend to put this out, not mist it.
Will an auto on a straight stream and flowing the proper flow (say 330gpm) and properly operated put this fire out?
Simple question, easy to answer Yes or No?
I've also illustrated that automatics are not capable of covering large ranges in pressure, as is sometimes advertised,in another prior post.
Yes, you might be correct in your instance, but overall you are incorrect. That I'm aware of, autos are available to cover ranges to 4,000gpm. How much larger range do you want?
Now, if you go back through the past communication(s), you will find that your questions have been answered, sometimes several times.
I agree, some of them have been answered, not the one I'm really interested in, but you'll never answer that one.
06-23-2001, 06:27 PM #48BLACKSHEEP-1Firehouse.com Guest
I've said it before, a properly operating fog nozzle will put this fire out, if you just stand there and stare at it, it will go out as well, it'll just take a little longer. The smooth bore is still my choice. If you want to know what the nozzle pressure is in the picture I'll guess it's somewhere between 40-60psi. I believe that it's somewhere in that area since I've flowed a similar nozzle to the one in the picture not too long ago, right off of a hydrant connection at 58psi and it looked about the same. That is prime smooth bore territory, and if it's not flowing at that pressure I would go from a 1-1/4" to a 1" and go back after it. If you think that you can go to some pressure overide and get the stream back, you might, but what you've done is overide the automatic nozzle and basically turned it into a gpm adjustable fog. Now here is another possibility, maybe the nozzle is on a flush setting and it's being adjusted.Boy ain't this fun!!
..Just so you know, about 15 minutes ago I went to another station that had some of the nozzles lying around that appear to be identical to the one in the picture. I took a flow gauge, and a stacked tip 1-1/4(of course)and put them on a hydrant with a globe valve. At 50psi the smoothbore looked good, all the way down to 40 psi. The automatic was a pooch at 50 psi. The stream went out about 8ft, even when I changed the bale position. Today, 15 minutes ago with that gauge, it took 70psi on the auto to make the stream look ANYTHING like the one in the photo. I did that because I wanted to make sure I wasn't BSing anyone out there. So, if you don't mind, I would like to amend the above statement to indicate that I believe that the nozzle in the picture has AT LEAST 60psi on it.
[This message has been edited by BLACKSHEEP-1 (edited 06-23-2001).]
06-23-2001, 10:40 PM #49BIG PAULIEFirehouse.com Guest
For anyone that is intrested, I will be teaching a large caliber stream class at the Firehouse Expo next month. Alot of what is being discussed on this thread can be reproduced on the drill field which I think can settle most of it once and for all. I will have flow meters and pressure gauges. Believe it or not alot of the stuff LHS is talking about is true. I think I can make believers out of you without ridiculing. We will show how to get the flows and reach from both smooth bores and automatics using special techniques and specific operating pressures.
1-3/4" hose up to around 380 gpm
2" hose up to around 450gpm
2-1/2 and 3" hose 500 to 600 gpm all day.
Handle smooth bore tip nozzle pressures up to 115 psi
I get the impression that some of the feelings expressed on this thread are based on the way we have always done it VS thinking out of the box for new ideas. I have said it befor and I will say it again. How much resistance do you think there was when we went from horses to engines?
06-24-2001, 12:25 PM #50pumpertankerFirehouse.com Guest
If you are using a smooth bore you can always go to a smaller tip? Always is an awfully big word. That means all users of smooth bore tips used stacked tips with a flow range from 50 to 350 gpm? We know that is not true. FDNY for example has two tips for 1 3/4" hose, a 15/16th and an overhaul low flow tip. That is a drop of 130 gpm between tips. If you are suggestiong life gets better on this fire with a good 1/2 smooth bore 50 gpm stream I'd beg to differ Blacksheep. So yo get an lousy stream with a smooth bore too, great.
FDNY's 2 1/2" lines don't have a stack. So ALWAYS doesn't work here, however the nozzle in the picture can adjust automatically as can all autiomatics to their entire flow range. You'd need 7 to 9 smooth bores to cover the same range properly. If water supply wasn't an issue we wouldn't have seen a bad stream in the photo.
The comments about the selecto flow are right on. At least 80% of the automatics on the market and in the field will produce streams with less than 100 psi and 50 gpm at the tip, either thru override features tht date back to the early 70's or they have NPs that begin at zero. Is it really asking that much to have a pump pressure of 100 psi to get the 20% that won't make a stream to work? I mean what is your minimum standard to do this job? One glove is not being fully dressed nor is 100 psi at 50 gpm. The smooth bore wouldn't look real good at 100 psi and 50 gpm either. This is not a nozzle issue, it is a pump operator issue.
Pretty stange you bring up nothing you can do about it as a nozzleman and then say you operated the same nozzle at 58 psi with the stream in the picture. So if 58 produces a good reach, tight pattern, with what little you supplied, what else do you want? Then yo amend it by two psi or more. Operating at 50 instead of 58 results in a whopping 2 pound reduction in reaction, will the crew even know?
You know when their is too much pressure or reaction the crew can gate back the automatic and keep the same reach, which smooth bore allows you to do that?
The comment about the most gpm with least amount of people. The answer will be one no matter what nozzle is used in this situation, right? One is the minimum staffing for a fire hose.
The "I'm going to put the most amount of water on the fire", comment is certainly wrong suggesting a smooth bore would be the choice for the fire in the picture. Any nozzle could do that and a deck gun better. This is as the caption suggested is a rural event where using your water wisely is rule 1. High flow is not the best way to address the fire.
A high expansion foam tip would by far be first, 2nd a low expansion tip, CAFS would be third and the fastest knockdown, a fog gel attack 4th, A low ex Class A attack 5th , a wide fog exterior attack with class A foam fourth with the 2nd fastest knockdown, a wide fog exterior attack with water fifth witht e 3rd fastest knockdown, and any kind of smooth bore of straight stream combo nozzle next. RIGHT?
Certainly the CAFS line would move easier than any water stream. A flow 50% of that is needed for water to do the job, too. Least amount of people would be a 60 gpm booster and one guy going window to window.
"water comes out at the cost of reaction"? Oh, use a wide fog and steam this thing out, reaction will be at least 125 pounds less than the smooth bore you suggest.
"I've illustrated that when you use them on a small enough line and try to force a lot of water through them that you will eventually pay the price in pumping capacity as well" That was the sorriest arguement you've ever made. This fire does not by your own words require anyone to anywhere close to pump capacity with their fire engine.
Using the smallest allowable NFPA pump for a pumper allows you to use any size line from 1" to 5" made to achieve a flow to put this fire out. RIGHT?
"I've also illustrated that automatics are not capable of covering large ranges in " Define a wide range. 50 to 250 gpm at 45 to 110 psi s this a wide range? Or 70 to 325 gpm at 75 psi, or 30 to 350 gpm at 20 to 120 psi? Or 200 to 1000 gpm at 40 to 120 psi. How about 500 to 4000 gpm at 75, 80, 90, 100, 110 or 120 psi...you pick the np at the time of use. Please tell me what smooth bore tip has that flow range and psi range. How many tips will you need? That automatic data is taken off the manufacturers web sites. I bet they come pretty close to that. What proof do you have they don't?
" if it's not flowing at that pressure I would go from a 1-1/4" to a 1" and go back after it." 60 gpmfrom a 1" smooth bore will go 8 to 10 feet, that is suppose to be a solution, the automatic is giving better reach and a stream than that!
"If you think that you can go to some pressure overide and get the stream back, you might," So? If yo liik at the photos the crew never lost their stream did they?
" but what you've done is overide the automatic nozzle and basically turned it into a gpm adjustable fog." No it is not! It is a fixed flow nozzle at that point.
"Now here is another possibility, maybe the nozzle is on a flush setting and it's being adjusted." You sure you operated one of these from a hydrant recently? If so you'd know the nozzle in the picture flushes in wide fog only.
"I took a flow gauge, and a stacked tip 1-1/4(of course)and put them on a hydrant with a globe valve. The stream went out about 8ft, even when I changed the bale position. " So which is it? You said earlier you got the stream in the foto, now you are saying 8 feet.
"At 50psi the smoothbore looked good, all the way down to 40 psi. The automatic was a pooch at 50 psi. " Gee the smooth bore could only handle a 10 psi drop but the automatic handled a 50 psi drop, 20% versus 50%, there is a fair test. Who the heck fights fire at 50 psi off hydrant pressure? Ehat is the point? If you are going to operate at those pressures use a LP fog and compare it to a smoothbore.
It is really hard to support you when the claims are so wild.
06-24-2001, 12:48 PM #51KEAFirehouse.com Guest
From the US?
Lots of defensive posturing?
Sounds like LHS?
Reads like LHS?
Types like LHS?
Must be LHS
06-24-2001, 01:08 PM #52SFD-129-3Firehouse.com Guest
Blacksheep, just bite your tongue and let this die a slow death!
06-24-2001, 07:44 PM #53BLACKSHEEP-1Firehouse.com Guest
OK SFD, but it's gonna be tough!!!, they're so easy.
06-25-2001, 05:14 AM #54Fire29_1999Firehouse.com Guest
Interiorcommando I haven't read all the posts yet but I agree with you, 2.5-3 line with wide fog in the "O" pattern up to the porch then point through the door the same way to see whats left, than figure it out from there, has always worked for me.
06-25-2001, 07:33 AM #55SCNOZZLEMANFirehouse.com Guest
It seems to be a lack of water presure, as others here say, the line size and nozzle I dont think is a problem here. I myself would more than likely have it on a mid-fog and a little closer, if I had what they have there....
06-25-2001, 09:09 AM #56SFD-129-3Firehouse.com Guest
I think we all need to realize that even if I think we should call in an air drop, people would argue what kind of chopper should be used!
06-25-2001, 10:58 AM #57KEAFirehouse.com Guest
Everyone surely knows that all air drops are more effective while using a Jolly Green HH-53 Chopper
Who ever would use some small chopper like an H-3 or a Jet Bell Ranger is simply waisting their time.
Why? Its Bigger, Badder & Better than any others, which I know everyone will agree with!
First Strike Technologies, Inc
06-25-2001, 11:31 AM #58SFD-129-3Firehouse.com Guest
KEA, you obviously don't know your hindquarters from hot ham!! I fly a fleet of hueys from the mekong with 45,000 gal and m-60 door guns!!!!
06-25-2001, 01:44 PM #59SFD-129-3Firehouse.com Guest
In case anyone was wondering, there was a huge amount of sarcasm in the last 3 posts.
06-25-2001, 04:52 PM #60KEAFirehouse.com Guest
Oh yeh, that is a hellicopter. small, but dependable.
Now as far as this hindquarters statement goes:
In the last ten years I have shot, skinned, quartered and deboned everything from farm raised hogs (Ham) to Dall Sheep in Alaska. The moose was a little difficult but we got the job done.
Speaking of moose, that would have been a great time to use the Huey
First Strike Technologies, Inc
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