I gotta go with a skycrane on this one, especially if it has a smoothbore tip somewhere.....Sorry, I'll go back to biting my tongue.
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Thread: How effective is this stream?
06-25-2001, 06:41 PM #61BLACKSHEEP-1Firehouse.com Guest
06-25-2001, 07:49 PM #62KEAFirehouse.com Guest
I have to disagree with you on this one. Everyone knows the Skycrane cannot deliver the same flight characteristics of the HH-53. Without that adjility it would not be able to make good use of the smooth bore tip during its drops.
Dumping a big payload in one spot is one thing but being able to hit and move is more important. This needed mobility means the Skycrane is just interesting......and not the most effective tool for the job.
The increased speed and mobility of the HH-53 over the Skycrane would offer more payloads to the fire with greater ease and deliver more water to the fire over the duration of the fire fight.
Besides, using the Skycrane only takes a crew of 2. We wouldnt want this because that could equate to a reduction of manpower if city councel gets wind of it.
Now that my point is clear I am sure all would agree that the HH-53 is the weapon of choice
Oh, almost forgot, it has a crew of 4
First Strike Technologies, Inc
06-25-2001, 10:34 PM #63mongofire_99Firehouse.com Guest
First let me say I am truly glad you went out and played a little to do a little research. But, don't be breakin' your arm pattin' yourself on the back now.
That is prime smooth bore territory, and if it's not flowing at that pressure I would go from a 1-1/4" to a 1" and go back after it.
Just curious, what flow would you hope for from the 1"?
Is it enough to make progress or just prolong the fire? (Demonstrating yet another case when it would have went out faster if we stayed in the station.)
At 50psi the smoothbore looked good, all the way down to 40 psi.
Isn't it supposed too?
I've flowed a similar nozzle to the one in the picture not too long ago, right off of a hydrant connection at 58psi and it looked about the same.
Today, 15 minutes ago with that gauge, it took 70psi on the auto to make the stream look ANYTHING like the one in the photo. I did that because I wanted to make sure I wasn't BSing anyone out there. So, if you don't mind, I would like to amend the above statement to indicate that I believe that the nozzle in the picture has AT LEAST 60psi on it.
12 pounds ain't much, but it does help support your position.
By the way, I was playing with a TFT just about three hours ago and got a similar stream at less than 30 psi...
And if you guys want an airdrop on this fire, your going to need to wait until it vents more so you can get the water in there. The skycrane can be brought in for about $7,500 with an 800gpm gun on the nose, but getting it down close enough to use would spread the fire to any exposures.
people would argue what kind of chopper should be used!
A 60 with 1,000 gallons ought to be plenty. The Jollys are great, but it's like taking a tanker to a car fire. Plus they cost too much per hour to operate - agreed the 60s are expensive too.
I fly a fleet of hueys from the mekong with 45,000 gal and m-60 door guns!!!!
A fleet of hueys is called a gaggle.
A gaggle of 100 (more if you keep the guns)hueys would be a hell of an airdrop.
06-25-2001, 11:54 PM #64KEAFirehouse.com Guest
Like I have said in the past, I have found that more often than not, some automatics provide different flows each time you use them. You may get one to have a stream like what is in the picture at 30psi, while I have found dozens of them that had the same looking stream at 20-70psi. I can shut the bail down on one that has not been serviced per the mfg specifications and and each time its open and closed we get different results, and I dont mean just a few gallons different. I have had some that were as much as 75-gpm different.
This shouldnt be a ****ing match over which nozzle to use, but since its become that here is my two cents worth.
What ever nozzle your using, KNOW what it takes to flow the proper flow and check it serveral times over a year or so!
Unfortunatly, SOME of the automatics are very inconsistent with there flow rates after they have been in use for very long. This being the case, what it takes to get a given flow one day may be different than what it takes to get the same flow another day. This problem seams to be more relevant to areas which have very hard water.
Proper servicing SHOULD fix this problem but I have found that very few departments do the needed service to some of their automatics because they were not told it needed to be done.
My nozzle preference for this particular fire photo:
If I had to use an automatic: I would use the SM-30. Just my personal preference for automatics.
If I had to use a Constant Gallonage Fog: I would use either the Elkhart Chief or the Akron Assault.
If I had to use a smooth bore: I would use at least a 1 1/4" tip.
If I wanted to put the fire out I would use a.......oooopps, cant go there
Lets all relax and try to have a constructive dialog
First Strike Technologies, Inc
06-26-2001, 08:42 AM #65BLACKSHEEP-1Firehouse.com Guest
Well let's see, the 1" tip still gives you 210gpm @50psi. The 1-1/4 tip is generally considerred the largest bore handline, and the smallest master stream, at 50psi it's 330, @55 it's 345. If you can hold it, or maybe put a loop in it you can go to 415gpm @80 psi but that's really pushing it. There was a pic in a recent article that showed chicago(I think)using a 1-1/4 tip on a master stream at 100psi and hitting something like 16floors,I gotta try that!A few years ago we did a bunch of tests with a group of firefighters where we tried to find the maximum amount of reaction force 1, or 2 guys could handle. We decided that about 65 lbs reaction force was about all 1 person could handle at a crouch, and advance it.(this is why we adopted a 7/8 tip instead of the more usual 15/16 tip on our interior lines).1 guy can hold the 330/50 psi nozzle but can't advance it. 2 guys can not only hold it but move it easily, 2 guys hit the limit at about 150-160 lbs r/f. Now I'll admit that this information is not real scientific, but it was an attempt to find out how much reaction force guys can handle. This info is given out to as a resource, no one really needs to comment on it, I know some of you will disagree with it, it's OK. I still love you.
06-26-2001, 10:07 AM #66SFD-129-3Firehouse.com Guest
Guys, I hope everyone realizes this is getting way to trivial and just down right aggravating. LHS puts out fires with his fav nozzle, plug uses his, blacksheep uses his. Ya know what? Everyone puts out their fires! We can all try different things but nobody says we have to use larry's nozzle bc thats the only one. Some of us use what we have.
Do we really have to tear each other up over stupid, minor things?
06-26-2001, 10:09 AM #67pumpertankerFirehouse.com Guest
Can you say fraud? I believe the photo is doctored. The line was charged but wasn't flowing water yet, so the art director went to photoshop and added the stream and changed the locating of the gate valve.
06-26-2001, 10:32 AM #68BLACKSHEEP-1Firehouse.com Guest
Actually There are probably a bunch of guys out there training there butts off just trying to keep up with the arguments presented in this forum. At least I would hope so.
06-26-2001, 11:07 AM #69KEAFirehouse.com Guest
I think to insinuate that the cover photo is a case of fraud is way out of line.
I have had the great pleasure of meeting Harvey Eisner personally and have been very impresssed with both his integraty and cincerity he represents. To imply that he has committed fraud is offensive.
I'm not trying to start a fight over this but I'm of the opinion your statement is way out of line.
Just curious, is your user name "PumperTanker" a replacement for LHS?
First Strike Technologies, Inc
06-26-2001, 12:49 PM #70E229LtFirehouse.com Guest
Suprised no one has brought up the pistol grip on the nozzle. This member is handcuffed by using it. Another innovation in equipment which can only be fixed with a hacksaw.
06-26-2001, 04:26 PM #71BLACKSHEEP-1Firehouse.com Guest
Well put! E229lt, I couldn't say it better myself.
06-26-2001, 04:39 PM #72BLACKSHEEP-1Firehouse.com Guest
This is the kind of thing that happens when you get a call in the middle of your reply...
[This message has been edited by BLACKSHEEP-1 (edited 06-26-2001).]
06-26-2001, 09:37 PM #73Jimmy JamesFirehouse.com Guest
The stream sucks (no news there huh?). Why is the pressure too low? Don't know, probably just getting started. Too many variables and questions left unanswered.
A solid or fog on a straight stream will quickly put this out just fine just as quickly.
If a fire doubles in size evry 30 to 60 seconds, how big will this be before the air support arrives?
06-26-2001, 10:12 PM #74Dalmatian90Firehouse.com Guest
Actually E229, this is the only situation I see a use for a pistol grip You're far enough away, the lack of mobility of the stream is made up for by having a large arc on the "fire side" Otherwise, pass the hacksaw.
Now as to helicopters, may I humbly recommend a Kaman K-MAX (I'm from Connecticut after all, and the Kaman plant is closer than Sikorsky).
Especially the demo they just built for the Marine Corps -- remotely piloted. Have the Dispatcher fly it out and knock down the fire while waiting for the trucks to arrive. The counter rotating lift rotors and absence of a tail-rotor would probably make it more stable in thermal updrafts, too.
I'm thinking something like a Bresnan distrubutor on a long hose...drop it down, pump CAFS down the hose and into the hose.
But then the Dispatcher would have all the fun.
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