06-10-2001, 11:46 PM #1Notch JohnsonFirehouse.com Guest
The only thing worse than a Paramedic is one that thinks he's a Fireman
The duel roll cross training trend that has swept the nation is destroying the true purpose of the fire department.
Departments are losing touch with basic firefighting skills and are more concerned with getting a $300,000 fire engine, jammed up with paramagics,to a stomach ache.
You burn down a city block...."Oh well..better luck next time..nobody was hurt.
You don't put oxygen on a patient with a sore foot "You're Fired!!"
Paramedics should be on ambulances, firemen should be on fire apparatus.....Bottom line.
06-11-2001, 12:10 AM #2BFD847Firehouse.com Guest
Sound like you have some issues that need to be worked out.
06-11-2001, 12:14 AM #3Engine 101Firehouse.com Guest
Hmm now where have I heard this before?
And since when do we apply 02 to someone with a sore foot?
06-11-2001, 12:41 AM #4LT334Firehouse.com Guest
I was going to reply to this post, but I dont want to start a big argument. I will let the poster display his own stupidity.
06-11-2001, 01:34 AM #5ffguy083Firehouse.com Guest
Was going to take the bait, but I think we'll let this one die...
06-11-2001, 01:36 AM #6daysleeper47Firehouse.com Guest
Can't wait for this one to get shut down. Hey Notch, I am glad to see you are a newer member to these lovely forums, but we all checked our sh*t at the door, so should you.
06-11-2001, 02:39 AM #7CanMan24Firehouse.com Guest
You are so full of ****!! I think you need to get your head out of your *** and look at the big picture here. The nation's fire service serves a dual purpose.......We are here to save LIVES and PROPERTY, and if that means putting Paramedics or EMT's on fire apparatus in a Fire based EMS system as long as they are equally trained and qualified then so freakin be it!! Get over yourself and listen to the music. Enough said, because this thread was just simply idiotic!!
Pennsylvania FF/EMT 24
[This message has been edited by CanMan24 (edited 06-11-2001).]
06-11-2001, 08:47 AM #8spo0kFirehouse.com Guest
notch johnson, nate marshall.. anyone seeing any similarities?
FF. Mike Burnes
Whitehall Fire Division
06-11-2001, 12:07 PM #9HILLBILLY70Firehouse.com Guest
Yeah, and I have always thought those new fangled motorized fire apparatus were a bad idea too...the horses were working great!
06-11-2001, 12:25 PM #10Ford45Firehouse.com Guest
ooo, sounds like someone struck a bit of a nerve here. Looks like you got off on the wrong foot, Notch! Peace.
Newtown Fire Association
06-11-2001, 12:35 PM #11mamalukeFirehouse.com Guest
Johnson- I hear you. Many things are destroying the fire department, and EMS is one of them. EMS is a necessity, but I don't like what it has done to the fire service. You are right. The last few great depts are being destroyed. Your dept, San Fran, Detroit, FDNY. Look at the morale in these departments. Politics, greed, and stupidity have destroyed these departments or are in the process of destroying them. It is disgusting and a disgrace to watch this over and over again. What a shame.
06-11-2001, 03:55 PM #12ntvilleffFirehouse.com Guest
Here we go again...........
Exactly how does EMS destroy the fire dept. ......and before the tirade of budgets and staffing, and all the other excuses come pouring in, it all comes down to politics. The idiots who run the whole municipal show are the ones who ruin fire dept's. NOT EMS. I can't think of any reason anyone can come up with, that can't be categorically refuted, except for the fact that the people who sit in the velvet cushioned seats at the town/city council meetings are not willing to give the support to the fire dept's that is needed. They would rather fund projects that make them look good for the next election. A new senior center or shopping mall make the politicians look good immediately. A new fire truck or a four man shift doesn't give them any gratification (unless it's their house burning). EMS is good for the fire service. It's that much more we are able to do for the public. As posted in another thread (about fire truck billboards), Our best bet is to educate the public. Make them aware of the problems facing todays fire service. Until the politicians feel pressure on an issue from the people that put them in office, they aren't going to do a damn thing to remedy it.
Cross training doesn't have a thing to do with it. Since when does learning more become detrimental. If basic firefighting skills are being lost it is your own fault. The true purpose of the fire dept is to save lives and conserve property, extinguishment of fires happens as a goal of property conservation.
This of course is my own opinion
06-11-2001, 04:09 PM #13gah74Firehouse.com Guest
Hey Notch...Things for bringing up this subject again. None of us have heard it before. It's pitiful that we're being asked to walk and chew bubble gum at the same time. How can we possibly get this done?
06-11-2001, 04:12 PM #14Jake295885Firehouse.com Guest
You are soo right my man..........We in this spoiled country don't get it till we get our ****^^& handed to us. Yep it takes a giant tragedy until we understand.
The wingnuts who feel ems is their salvation are driving geo metros while the almighty doctors drive BMW's
The fire is coming soon where a hundred people lose their lives because we were too busy playing doctor without the money.....
Notch, I wish you a long and sucessful career, you truly have the guts to say what needs to be said.......
As for leadership, its lacking in todays fire service..........
06-11-2001, 05:40 PM #15troll911Firehouse.com GuestOriginally posted by Jake295885:
You are soo right my man..........We in this spoiled country don't get it till we get our ****^^& handed to us.
As for leadership, its lacking in todays fire service..........
I have noticed a lot of ya'll from the D.C. metro area do not like EMS, do not want anything to do with EMS, and/or, judging from the posts that I have read, do not want to learn anything from FIRE/EMS departments.
Any Fire Fighter that cannot crosstrain in EMS skills, I do not want them around me.
Oh, sure, your FF skills just pulled me out of the burning building; extricated me from my FUBARred Geo Metro; fished me out of the river.....BUT WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO NOW?
"Oh, duh, we don't do nothing but fight fires.We are allowed to stand around now with our thumbs up our butts and look this way untill the Paramagic arrives."
I pray that it is not anyone in your family that calls on your FD in their time of need because you are toooo lazy and ignorant to learn something new.
The only thing worse than a Fire Fighter/EMT/Paramedic is a Fire Fighter that is unwilling to do the job they swore an oath to. "To Protect and Serve."
Simple, isn't it.
Just my opinions, not my departments. If they are alike, it usually means somethin's gonna happen!
06-11-2001, 06:00 PM #16mamalukeFirehouse.com Guest
Give me a break. You are over dramatic and uninformed. If you worked in DC you would not feel the same way. You only know your side of it and therefore cannot offer a well rounded opinion. That goes for everyone here who ripped into this guy.
06-11-2001, 06:42 PM #17ALSfirefighterFirehouse.com Guest
Notch and Jake, to me there is nothing worse then a firefighter who thinks he is also a paramedic. When are some of you guys gonna learn that a call is a call. And you know what, the EMS did help me get the job. The position probably wouldn't have existed. But you see, I'm just like you said it should be, Firefighter on the apparatus, and a paramedic on the ambulance.
And for the morale and leadership issue that some of you state...your right, there are morale problems in some depts. And guess what ATTITUDE REFLECTS LEADERSHIP.
The above is my opinion only and doesn't reflect that of any dept/agency I work for, deal with, or am a member of.
06-11-2001, 07:02 PM #18pwc606Firehouse.com Guest
Well Notch, I do believe you touched a nerve. My only question is how do you justify having a full time fire service to only run twenty percent fire calls and totally ignore the other eighty percent of the call volume when the closeest unit that may save a life is an engine?
Now Troll 911, I believe that those in our area here that ride the GUTBUCKET like what they do and would not do the job if they did not want to. Everyone around D.C. has problems with ambulance staffing but for the most part we try to get the job done as best we can with what THE POLITICIANS have given us to work with.
The entire D.C. metro area is constantly busy running EMS calls. It is our job as public servants to ensure the safety and the welfare of its citizens. Check out this months issue of Firehouse Magazine and you will see the numbers for the departments all over the US. The numbers dont lie and there is nothing that will change the fact that firetrucks will be going on EMS calls until the end of time.
[This message has been edited by pwc606 (edited 06-11-2001).]
06-11-2001, 09:18 PM #19Jake295885Firehouse.com Guest
Your comments were well taken, I have reflected upon your perspectives and concluded that some of us rarely respond to working fires, and that is good. We can still take in many runs via ems and feel good. but there are those of us who work in neighborhoods with buildings a century old, wood frame, attached, or 18" apart. who speaks for us. Already getting our heads bashed in, you ems muts are out of touch in our world............a promise of saving jobs has yielded 50 lost jobs and 1/3 less firemen on the street in my city.
Mark my word, the day is coming where we have a fire with much life loss due to fire service EMS........
06-11-2001, 09:29 PM #20Engine58Firehouse.com Guest
U guys can fight all you want but Im not gonna say a word here...But all I gotta say is this...like mentioned before...Notch Johnson?? NATE MARSHALL????
South Amboy, New Jersey
Explorer Engine 6 So. Amboy Fire Dept & Cadet Morgan FAS
"EMTS DON'T DIE THEY JUST STABILIZE"
06-11-2001, 10:13 PM #21d308Firehouse.com Guest
Notch, One of the best fireman that I have ever seen is a paramedic.
06-11-2001, 11:46 PM #22MB1213635Firehouse.com Guest
Notch...you got it brother. EMS in many of the country's more urban areas is killing the fire department, and its main goal of extinguishing fires. Don't get me wrong, EMS is a necessity, just keep it as a separate organization from the fire department. Everybody would benifit in the end, because the crews concentrate on their main skill, ie firefighting and get good. The unfortunate truth is that money is the reason why more and more departments are going to EMS Engines. They can cut staffing but still on paper give the same coverage. Only problem is you end up with half-assed fireman and half-assed band-aid pushers.
06-12-2001, 12:28 AM #23troll911Firehouse.com Guest
Mamaluke, my opinion is well rounded as I am a short, fat guy. As for being uniformed, I'll agree to that, but that's why I cruise these boards. Grew up in the fire service (my father is a retired FF/EMT-I) and I have 24 yrs. on, so I think I have some semblance of what is going on.
I ripped into Notch for one reason only: His disillusioned aspect as to what a FF is. I work with 140 FF on my dept., 100% TDH certified personnel from EMT(24), EMT-I(17) & Paramedic(99). I wouldn't hesitate to go in an inferno with any of them, or have any of them attend to my family in time of medical necessity.
Overdramatic? Nah, I don't think so. I witness or read or hear about to many instances where the FF/EMT has made a difference in the outcome of the patient. That is why I am in favor of dual roles.
Jake295885, very few buildings left here over 100 years old, but probably 60% are at least over 40. Most are about 20' apart. With the little explanation you give, I can see why you are ****ed. But our worlds are still the same. Something burns, we still put it out. We run about 9500 EMS runs and about 3500 Fire runs a year (including first responce). You can "what if" Fire Service EMS to death, but that big fire can (and probably will) come when your units are stretched out to BFE on 2nd,3rd,4th or 5th alarms. Most EMS calls can be dealt with in 20 minutes or less.
And like pwc66 says, trucks are going to be going on EMS calls until the end of time. Look for more with Clinton's "socialized medicine". People cannot afford medical insurance and so will turn to the Fire and EMS service for their PCP.
Just my opinions, not my departments. If they are alike, it usually means somethin's gonna happen!
06-12-2001, 06:03 AM #24tlfd600Firehouse.com Guest
Well Notch, I hope an ambulnace is always 5 minutes away when your family needs it. Sometimes all ambulances are out on calls and if your family was haveing an emergency wouldn't it be nice to have an engine there with a medic rather than waiting 20 minutes for a box to show up. I also wonder if you think we shouldn't handle Haz-Mat, confined space rescue, High-Angle rescue, should we have a separate High-Angle rescue team waiting for those rescues and that be their only job. I have been watching the news the past few days from Houston, and their rescues have involved dealing with EMS too. People you pull out of a burning building are not fine and hope up and start walking around after you pull them out. Maybe there should be a separate EMS serivce. But the fire fighting business needs to have trained prehospital providers too. I may be wrong but many if not close to half of the Line of Duty Deaths last year were from heart attacks, wouldn't you want a medic on your Engine if one of your guys went down, I know I would. Sure in the old days of the fire service they didn't worry about EMS, but also consider they didn't have EMTs then either, they called the funeral home out in the ambulnace and yanked the car wreck victim out of the car, threw them on a stretcher and drove like hell to the hospital, then the fire fighters had the same training the ambulance did, so shouldn't we try to keep up now, we need them at our calls and they need us at their calls. Fire fighters are hired by a group of citizens to be public servants, and I never saw anywhere in the words public servants that you had the ability to pick and chose your calls, if that were the case why not have a separat group that goes on automatic fire alarm calls, since those are false calls most of the time so we can sit around and make sure it is the real thing before we get out of bed at night. How about lets start makeing fire trucks with just a pump and water tank and a little hose and no compartments so we won't have to worry about dealing with calls we don't enjoy. I know many paramedics that I would go into a burning building with at any time and also I have known fire fighters that I wouldn't trust to use a fire extinguisher. It all depends on the person, not the number of titles after their name.
06-12-2001, 09:48 AM #25N2DFireFirehouse.com Guest
Well, I was going to let this one slide and not reply, but the more I check in on it and the more I see the thread title in the forums, the more it eats away at me (which was probably all Notch wanted in the first place so Good Job Notch).
A firefighter, EMT, Paramedic, etc. can only increase his (or her) worth, versatility, and usefulness by becoming cross trained.
It is only when Chiefs, town/city managers, and all the other politicians involved use this versatility as a budget reduction tool that makes it "a bad thing". Very same argument with Quint Fire Apparatus - it's not the truck and it's function(s) that are inherently bad, but how the trucks are implemented by the managing body(ies).
If your Department has issues with being over taxed and "spread thin" because you have cross trained medical persons out on apparatus - don't blame the cross training - blame the true underlying issue that's hitting every department in the USA (cross trained or not) - Under Staffing.
Lastly - I would like to say that I personally worked very long and very hard to get my Paramedic Certification and I will be D****d if I am going to sit here and let Notch Johnson, or anyone else tell me that I am less the Firefighter for doing it.
Although this is my opinion alone, I hope it is reflective of the thoughts and opinions of my cross trained brethren everywhere.
Take Care - Stay Safe
FF/Paramedic (and proud of it)
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