Closed Thread
Page 10 of 15 First ... 78910111213 ... Last
  1. #181
    Member

    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Posts
    39

    Default

    Okay you got me I guess. I havent read all the replys but it sounds like the same old argument of who is better. I do agree that the test standards should be equal for both parts. I have seen males that couldnt pass the agility test. I apologize if I stepped on your toes about the being pulled out by a female. The thing is if you want it bad enough you will work for it, male or female. this topic colud go on for years and there still wouldnt be a solution.

  2. #182
    Forum Member
    BucksEng91's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Location
    Warminster, PA
    Posts
    576

    Default

    Hi mediator -

    I agree that this topic could go on forever. But I don't need other people to tell me I'm right. I know I'm right.

    So, the captstanm's of the world can continue to rah-rah for females in the fire service, telling us we can't call ourselves "firemen" because that's sexual harassment (still wondering where he pulled that one from), and subtly arguing that females are somehow discriminated against because they don't make it in the fire service in comparable numbers to males (which has already been shown to be a bullsh*t argument).

    But I know I'm right. Gee, it's nice having self-esteem and a brain.
    "Let's roll." - Todd Beamer, one of a group of American soldiers who handed the terrorists their first defeat.

    Joe Black

    The opinions expressed are mine and mine alone (but you can borrow them )and may not reflect those of any organization with which I am associated (but then again, they just may not be thinking clearly).

  3. #183
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Diane E's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 1998
    Location
    Maryland (but always a Long Islander first)
    Posts
    1,103

    Default

    Gosh, I really didn't want to respond to this, but......

    Re. Fireman....

    How about:
    Congressman
    Policeman
    Postman
    Chairman
    Cableman
    Ice Creamman
    TV Repairman

    Get over it. All of it. Where I am from (Long Island) it's all about volunteering. We (my dept at least) will take anyone we can get as long as they pass the doctor's exam and the police background check. They come in all shapes and sizes, ages and colors and religous backgrounds....I've been in 10 years and have seen woman come and go and boys and men come and go. It happens, it's mostly because of the economy.

    The bottom line is every dept is different and every human being is different. No one should be discriminated against especially in the fire service where everyone knows fire DOES NOT discriminate.

    There's my 2 cents.
    "When I was young, my ambition was to be one of the people who made a difference in this world. My hope is to leave the world a little better for my having been there."
    -- Jim Henson (1936 - 1990)

  4. #184
    Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    florida
    Posts
    41

    Default

    I can't believe this is still going on. I think we all agree IF you can do the job, it's yours, however IF you can't the job is too important to let you slide into just for the sake of affirmative action. I'm a firm believer that women should be allowed to do any job they CAN do. Discrimination would be not allowing that woman who has proven she can do it, to have the job. Discrimination is allowing that woman who CAN'T do the job, employment based on gender.

    Everyone here is saying the same thing, 'if they can do the job, so be it. If they can't they shouldn't have it'. Where's the debate?

  5. #185
    Forum Member
    BucksEng91's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Location
    Warminster, PA
    Posts
    576

    Default

    comwhite, the debate comes when someone such as captstanm expresses an opinion that is out of sync with reality - that females must, ipso facto, be discriminated against in the hiring / test preparation process because they fail the physical abilities test at a higher percentage rate than do male candidates.

    He blames their lack of preparation on "the system", never once asking the tough question - why aren't the females prepared (so he says) for the PAT? In what way are they not prepared - do they lack the information or access to it? Are they just weak little girls who can't do anything for themselves when the nasty ol' "system" decideds it doesn't want females to enter the fire service?

    Personally, I think in bending himself into rhetorical pretzels to assert his belief that females are somehow discriminated against, the Cap does females as a whole a disservice. There's a subtle undercurrent of sexism in what he says.

    My opinion has always been that females should be given the same opportunity, the same preparation materials, and the SAME TEST as the males. If they make it, so be it. They're firefighters. If they don't, well...try, try again.
    "Let's roll." - Todd Beamer, one of a group of American soldiers who handed the terrorists their first defeat.

    Joe Black

    The opinions expressed are mine and mine alone (but you can borrow them )and may not reflect those of any organization with which I am associated (but then again, they just may not be thinking clearly).

  6. #186
    District Chief
    distchief60b's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    6,413

    Default

    Ok...my last post on this subject....(I know..thank god right?)

    Bucks.....I meant lost their job over sexual harrassment......not over the term "gals". But.....if females find the term fireman or gals offensive, then this leads to hostility and so on and so forth.....it is not just those terms, but language in general. And...you are incorrect about one thing...There have been cases where a person overheard something that was said (which was not even directed to them) and they perceived it to be offensive or perceived it to be a hostile work environment and filed a complaint.

    Yes, females and males take the same test and all I was saying is that some of the females who test do not take time to prepare themselves for it physically. Not because they were not informed completely but because they did not understand or in some cases were not even told what the test consisted of. This hold true in males also. I have administered tests where the person (note the term) arrived and was not wearing anywhere near the proper attire for the PAT. Why????? In this case....they had not been informed.....These type folks usually dont make it....

    Can we end this discussion and start another one?
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
    ------------------------------
    IACOJ Minister of Southern Comfort
    "Purple Hydrant" Recipient (3 Times)
    BMI Investigator
    ------------------------------
    The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.

  7. #187
    This space for rent
    NYSmokey's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    Recently relocated to Baltimore County, MD
    Posts
    1,018

    Default

    STOP THE INSANITY!!! END THIS THREAD. IT'S GONE ON LONG ENOUGH!!!
    Tom

    Never Forget 9-11-2001

    Stay safe out there!

    IACOJ Member

  8. #188
    Forum Member
    BucksEng91's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Location
    Warminster, PA
    Posts
    576

    Default

    Geez, Cap, I hate to do this. You've been a pretty decent guy through it, but I still have to take issue with a few things you've said. I'll try to be brief.

    You said: "But.....if females find the term fireman or gals offensive, then this leads to hostility and so on and so forth....." Who exactly is being hostile here? I personally have no problem whatsoever calling myself a "firefighter". I feel no special need to be called a "fireman". I'll say it again - if some uptight broad (and I use the term generously) has a problem because someone says "fireman" or "gals" either in or out of their presence, then I think the problem lies with them. We still have a 1st Amendment, last time I checked.

    You also said: "There have been cases where a person overheard something that was said (which was not even directed to them) and they perceived it to be offensive or perceived it to be a hostile work environment and filed a complaint." - You're completely missing my point on this, Cap. What I'm asking you is - IS THIS ALRIGHT? SHOULD someone lose their job for saying "gals"? Or if they're overheard saying "gals"? If this is OK with you, then we just have to agree to disagree. I value my freedom a bit more than that.

    Finally, you said: "Yes, females and males take the same test and all I was saying is that some of the females who test do not take time to prepare themselves for it physically. Not because they were not informed completely but because they did not understand or in some cases were not even told what the test consisted of. This hold true in males also." OK, so what was your previous point all about when you specifically pointed out that FEMALES are routinely unprepared for the PAT? If the unpreparedness (for want of a better word) goes across the board, then why is that an issue of discrimination against females in particular? You seemed to want to suggest that "the system" routinely discriminated against the females by somehow making it harder for them to prepare for the test. You weren't specific about how. NOW you say that both males AND females arrived unprepared. Which is it, Cap?
    "Let's roll." - Todd Beamer, one of a group of American soldiers who handed the terrorists their first defeat.

    Joe Black

    The opinions expressed are mine and mine alone (but you can borrow them )and may not reflect those of any organization with which I am associated (but then again, they just may not be thinking clearly).

  9. #189
    Forum Member
    BucksEng91's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Location
    Warminster, PA
    Posts
    576

    Default

    Smokey -

    I have a quick solution for your complaint. It's the same one I offer people who don't like a particular TV show or radio host or whatever.

    Don't read anymore. Go to one of the myriad other threads. Maybe some people still think this is worth debating. They'll stay. You can go and talk about 3.5" supply hose, or leather shields, or the color of fire trucks.

    We'll miss ya, though!
    "Let's roll." - Todd Beamer, one of a group of American soldiers who handed the terrorists their first defeat.

    Joe Black

    The opinions expressed are mine and mine alone (but you can borrow them )and may not reflect those of any organization with which I am associated (but then again, they just may not be thinking clearly).

  10. #190
    This space for rent
    NYSmokey's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    Recently relocated to Baltimore County, MD
    Posts
    1,018

    Default

    Good point BucksEng91. I guess there is more interest in this topic than I thought. Just thought 12 pages was enough already. Carry on! I'm going to the color of fire trucks thread and read that!

    Stay safe out there
    Tom

    Never Forget 9-11-2001

    Stay safe out there!

    IACOJ Member

  11. #191
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    173

    Default

    The original posts asks....
    What experiences have you had with female fire fighters? Do you think your firehouse would accept a woman as an equal? Are women capable of doing the job?

    I think most people here agree that you should have the job if you can pass the tests and the training. Men and women are built differently, but there is a large range of sizes within and between the genders. I know some wiry little men and women that have the strength to do the job. The test standards should never be lowered to help accommodate any specific group of people. Keep the standards high, they're there for a reason. Someone made the comment that Japanese firefighters are smaller than our women, but they also pull out OTHER JAPANESE people of similar size. Bring them to our country and they would struggle with our larger-built population.

    SOME women ARE capable of doing the job, just as SOME men are. It's the same with every occupation - some will always be better than others at what they do. You shouldn't get a job just because it was "your dream", you should earn it. I think the difficult thing here is that we are still living on the edge of a gender-biased society where many men feel that the firehouse is not the place for women. I'm sure there's still a bit of an "old boys" attitude at many stations. Things have changed a lot, and they will continue to change. But it has to come through a compromise of attitude, not a compromise of safety. Those women that have the mental and physical ability to pass the tests, and the ability to fit into a mostly male setting, will be the ones that survive on the job. Depending on the crew that's already there, they may be accepted with open arms or closed minds. Which one will you be? Doesn't every person who passes the test deserve the chance to prove themself?

  12. #192
    Banned

    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Posts
    27

    Default

    First impressions. Kinda like the popup add when you enter FH dot com. $89.00 buy as Leatherman Wave, go to leatherman http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...243557-2699949

    and buy it for 59.99. Research

  13. #193
    Forum Member
    CFD14EMT's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Kansas
    Posts
    82

    Default

    FF's SignfOthr

    Correct me if I am wrong, but don't they have Sumo Wrestling in Japan? Last time I saw it on ESPN, those Sumo Wrestlers were pretty big ole boys. lol.
    MGB&KY&Y-FDNY 9/11/01

  14. #194
    Junior Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    Spring, TX, USA
    Posts
    2

    Default

    We have two one that is working out very well and one that our membership cant stand. I personally have no problem with females in the firehouse as long as they understand that change is slow and we will not crack to your whip unless you are an officer.
    Kevin Wiseman
    Oklahoma State University School Of Fire Protection
    Ponderosa FD, Houston Texas

  15. #195
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    173

    Default

    Actually, I was going to mention Sumo wrestlers in my post, but left it out. We have our share of "Sumo size" people in this country too and they are a challenge to rescue no matter what size or gender you are. Those situations require some creativity and maybe a little hydraulic advantage . No single man or woman could move a person of that size on their own, that's why we have teamwork and training.

  16. #196
    Forum Member
    DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Somewhere between genius and insanity!
    Posts
    13,584

    Default

    Should it be the responsibility of the testing agency to inform everyone what they should be wearing to take the CPAT or should the people taking the CPAT use a little common sense and dress in gym shorts/sweats/t-shirts to take that portion of the exam? I have seen men and women show up for the CPAT dressed like they were going out to dinner...if they can't figure out how to dress properly, can you trust them to do the right thing on the fireground?

    I am really tired of having seeing the powers that set the bar to the lowest common denominator. If the person can take pass the entrance exam, pass the CPAT, psych and medical exams, they should get the job on these merits, not for the color of their skin, their gender, sexual orientation or nation of origin! I used to work support for Massachusetts Civil Service CPAT testing. I have seen men that should be able to pass the testing fail because they thought that they did not have to prepare for the CPAT. I have seen women pour their heart and soul into prepping for and passing the CPAT.

    The information about the tests, cpats, psychological exams and medical exams are out there for anyone to see. It's as simple as calling the Personnel Department at City/Town Hall or contacting the Department of Human Resources/Civil Service and asking for the information. Part of the fire service is the ability to think on the run....and taking the initiative is part of it.

    We will be having our first female firefighter appointed in August. She is the daughter of a firefighter and will carry on her family tradition.

    [ 07-25-2001: Message edited by: Captain Gonzo ]
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  17. #197
    Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    37

    Default

    If the ladies want to join us in the firehouse, why don't they just take it like it is, accept that as part of the job, and either like it and don't complain, or decide it is unacceptable to them and do something else. Take it as is. Take it or leave it. Why should we change for you? Why can't you accept how things are as part of the job you want to do, or not accept them and choose another career path? In other words, if you know going in there are no women's bathrooms, you should either accept that, or not work there. We shouldn't have to change to integrate you. For those of you who say we should, give me one good, logical, rational reason why. Changing PAT requirements, or forcing guys to watch their language, or making any other special accomodations is not right. If you want to/can make it w/o the special accomodations, great. If not, do yourself and everyone else a favor and do something else.

  18. #198
    MembersZone Subscriber
    NCRSQ751's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 1999
    Location
    Clemmons, NC
    Posts
    199

    Default

    Captain Gonzo, as always you are the voice of reason...

    Marmaluke...do you want to share a bathroom with women? Women who truly want to be respected as equals don't ask for special treatment, accommodations or anything you speak of.

    Seperate bathrooms is a little different and is as much for the men's comfort as the women's.

    [ 07-25-2001: Message edited by: NCRSQ751 ]
    Susan Lounsbury
    Winston-Salem Rescue Squad
    Griffith Volunteer FD

  19. #199
    Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    IN,USA
    Posts
    64

    Default

    because MAMALUKE it is easier for people to complain than to adapt to any incovenance.
    FF/PARAMEDIC/CORONER/TRAINING "MY DAY STARTS WHEN YOURS ENDS"
    **SEE YOU ON THE OTHER SIDE**

  20. #200
    Junior Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Cold Lake, Alberta, Canada
    Posts
    2

    Default

    We could argue this topic until we're blue in the face.....

    I'm a firefighter and that is the bottom line. In our department, if you call yourself a firefighter you better pull your weight-gender isn't an issue.


Closed Thread
Page 10 of 15 First ... 78910111213 ... Last

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register