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  1. #201
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    People should be judged individualy. We all can think of people that don't deserve, or can't do the job. We have no female, or ethnic FF/Para. at our Fire-Dept. With our job being a majority EMS I think our pts would feel alot better having someone they can relate to. (female problems, children, ethnic backgrounds, ect).


  2. #202
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    Originally posted by NCRSQ751:


    Seperate bathrooms is a little different and is as much for the men's comfort as the women's.

    [ 07-25-2001: Message edited by: NCRSQ751 ]
    Exaclty. My attempts at using a urinal have been largely unsuccessful (don't ask why...you're happier not knowing)
    Althea Forhan
    FDNY 343:"Forever your power and strength stays with me"

  3. #203
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    Althea my daughter only rips apart the Ken dolls. What does that mean?!?!?!?!!?


  4. #204
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    I don't know what to tell you---my brothers and I had GIjoes. I saw a similar quote on a t-shirt at summer camp--'cept it was for skeeball.

    Right now I wear firefighter GIjoe's dog tags. Just till I can get my own made...

    Althea
    Althea Forhan
    FDNY 343:"Forever your power and strength stays with me"

  5. #205
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    I have been a NYC firman for over 17 years. In all my years in the fire service I have never ever ever seen a woman hired by a professional department who actually EARNED it. The only way I have ever seen a female hired was by manipulation of exam results,changes in physical exams so everyone scores 100% and now all are "equal",or Some ******* liberal federal judge orders them on even though they completely FAILED FAILED FAILED the test the men took. One cannot cry about equal rights and then demand a seperate and completely different entrance exam. One cannot get hired when they fail the exam and then demand acceptance. Next they get promoted and say hey,"i earned it". You earned nothing honey how can you supervise something you could never do. I will never go to a female or minority doctor architect or lawyer for the same reason i hope i never have to work side by side with a female, my own saftey. ps the latest scam in new york is to promote female and minority emts to firefighter ahead of all white males who score 100%.and you wonder why your treated different?????????

  6. #206
    MembersZone Subscriber Diane E's Avatar
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    Blah, blah, blah.

    There are men who fail, too, so what's your point exactly??

    And here's a question I've always had, how many of the men (in any dept.) could do the tests today? I'm mainly talking about those who are "up there in age".....I've seen some pretty hefty firefighters in my days both paid and volunteer in several states....It's no wonder people are dying of heart attacks!

  7. #207
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    In response to Dianne, I am talking about women who fail and are hired anyway. When white men fail they are NOT HIRED.In reponse to your other statement comparing a 45 year old man to a 21 year old female recruit is a typical bull**** answer. A man enters a dept and grows old and physically deteriorates yes this is true, but what justifies hiring a 21 year old female who starts off from day one in a physically inferior state. I could imagine what she will be able to do when she is forty five. Why don't you compare a man and a woman when they are both forty five. The answer is that the 45 year old out of shape man will outperform and be stronger than a 45 year old female. Again how come women cant't just take the SAME!!!!! test and accept the results why do you always run to a FEDERAL JUDGE for a handout if you are so equal? A competitive physical doesn't ask your sex ? And please stop telling us all about the few woman who can do it, they still can't score high enough and really earn it on their own. There are plenty of men who can do it but they didn't score high enough, man who can do it better gets hired. The same should apply to a woman. And physical exams ARE directly related to ones strength and performance so stop the crap and tell the truth, not whats politically correct. There are enough standards destroyed in this country already. Why are some of you dumb enough to think that diversity at the cost of quality is a good thing? Diversity is a very polite way of saying hire nitwitts, idiots and the physically inferior.

  8. #208
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    I clicked on the forum "How to beat a dead horse", how did I get here? Damn intranet...
    ...if you put the handline in the right spot, you won't have to jump out the window...
    -Andy "Nozzles", SQ18, 9-11-01

  9. #209
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    Diane:
    You have fallen into the timeless old trap of confusing the issue:

    There are men who fail, too, so what's your point exactly??

    Men who fail aren't hired, period. Women who fail sometimes are, either by court ordered hiring "quotas", having the test ruled as having an adverse impact on them as females, or by having the test standards lowered to the point where they (as well as weaker males) will "pass".

    And here's a question I've always had, how many of the men (in any dept.) could do the tests today? I'm mainly talking about those who are "up there in age"...

    1. The degree to which the aging process affects physical performance depends on things like genetics and lifestyle factors such as diet, exercise, tobacco use to name a few. Many 40 year olds are stronger and fitter than some 20 year olds. Why don't we just do away with age limits and have validated annual fitness testing?
    2. The aging process, generally, is less kind to females in terms of loss of lean muscle mass, increase in weight and body fat percentage, and loss of bone density. How many female firefighters do you see doing 25-30 years service humping hoselines in active fire companies? Most either get hurt and go out on disability, leave the department after a few years of physical punishment, or find nice cozy little office jobs.

    I've seen some pretty hefty firefighters in my days both paid and volunteer in several states....It's no wonder people are dying of heart attacks

    Yes, it's sad that people in whom so much public trust is placed let themselves get like that, isn't it? This is a problem that should be addressed in those departments... it doesn't mean we should lower our standards to accomodate people who will be even less capable a few years down the road.

  10. #210
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    NozzleHog -

    Excellent post. This is the central issue, and the central problem of understanding that some people have - the males that fail are NOT hired...and they SHOULDN'T BE!!

    The females that fail and are sometimes hired are a danger to themselves, their team, and the public that they're pledged to protect.
    "Let's roll." - Todd Beamer, one of a group of American soldiers who handed the terrorists their first defeat.

    Joe Black

    The opinions expressed are mine and mine alone (but you can borrow them )and may not reflect those of any organization with which I am associated (but then again, they just may not be thinking clearly).

  11. #211
    District Chief distchief60b's Avatar
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    OK...I said I was done but the antique attitude of firemaster and his attack on Diane are uncalled for.

    It may happen in some cases and in some places but not ALL....

    I can say that the department I used to work for administered the same hiring test to both genders as well as those not sure of their gender. The county I lived in also administered the same test. A county I applied for and tested in administered the same test and in Pinellas County Florida where my girlfriend works she went through the exact same entrance test and took the exact same academy test and took the exact same final test to pass and be eligible for a job. And all of these are PASS/FAIL tests. If you fail....YOU ARE NO LONGER IN THE PROCESS....regardless of your gender.....

    I spent 21 years in career departments and 28 as a volunteer. I have administered a lot of promotional exams and never seen anyone male or female score a 100%. So what is that supposed to mean.

    I personally know some female firefighters that have worked hard, stay in shape and can kick some male f/fs butt in training and on the fireground and some are darn good officers.

    Firemaster....???? Did a female get promoted because she outscored you? Is that why you are so sore and hostile? OR did one show you up in training or perhaps on the fireground? Take the nozzle from you?

    Cant comment on the rest of your posts because I got nauseated while reading and had to quit.

    How are Ya BUCKSENG? You and I agree to disagree...but firemaster is a bit much...He is exactly the type person I was talking about relating to hostile work environment earlier....

    [ 08-05-2001: Message edited by: captstanm1 ]
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
    ------------------------------
    IACOJ Minister of Southern Comfort
    "Purple Hydrant" Recipient (3 Times)
    BMI Investigator
    ------------------------------
    The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.

  12. #212
    Forum Member BucksEng91's Avatar
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    CAPSTANM -

    I'm good, skipper. How's it going in Florida? You guys getting ready for the storms?
    "Let's roll." - Todd Beamer, one of a group of American soldiers who handed the terrorists their first defeat.

    Joe Black

    The opinions expressed are mine and mine alone (but you can borrow them )and may not reflect those of any organization with which I am associated (but then again, they just may not be thinking clearly).

  13. #213
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    Stan:

    >...the antique attitude of firemaster and his attack on Diane are uncalled for.

    What exactly constitutes an "antique" attitude? It's funny how those who think for themselves and don't jump on every so-called "progressive" bandwagon are called dinosaurs or antiques. I prefer the term "old school" but coming from you, I'll take being called a dinosaur or antique as a badge of honor.

    Firemaster's attack? Diane's argument was flawed. He simply asks, "Why are some of you dumb enough to think that diversity at the cost of quality is a good thing?" Sounds like a dam' good question to me, and pretty tame as "attacks" go. What about your attacks on others who have posted on this thread?

    >It may happen in some cases and in some places but not ALL...

    Right is right and wrong is wrong. If it happens in one place, that's one too many.

    >the department I used to work for administered the same hiring test to both genders...and in Cinderellas County Florida where my girlfriend works she went through the exact same entrance test and took the exact same academy test and took the exact same final test to pass and be eligible for a job...

    Maybe she's one of the microscopically small number of females who can legitimately do the job, but it's a safer bet that the agility test in those places had already been dumbed down to ensure the hiring of females, or that it never was much to begin with. The fact remains that departments that have real-world, physically demanding but validated agility tests hire very few, if any, women.

    As far as the academy, I don't suppose there could be any chance of that being dumbed down too? There could never be any pressure put on the staff to "make sure the females pass" ... that could never happen ... could it?

    >I spent 21 years in career departments and 28 as a volunteer. I have administered a lot of promotional exams and never seen anyone male or female score a 100%.

    What isthat supposed to mean? Is there a point in there somewhere?

    And for the record, in NYC any score of less than 100% on the agility test is, for all practical purposes, a failing score...it's not good enough to get you hired.

    >I personally know some female firefighters that have worked hard, stay in shape and can kick some male f/fs butt in training and on the fireground and some are darn good officers.

    I personally don't know any females who can "kick some male butt" on the fireground. Could be a matter of perspective. I think you stated on another thread that your department runs 85% EMS calls. Maybe you're one of those who thinks an 85% effective "firefighter" is OK. Maybe your rigs have blue crosses on them and double as ambulances. Maybe you think firefighting constitutes a small part of the job so it's not all that important, or maybe working for your department is just not that demanding?

    >...but firemaster is a bit much...He is exactly the type person I was talking about relating to hostile work environment earlier...

    That doesn't mean much coming from you, Stan. If I recall, you think quoting an editorial article from a newspapaper makes someone "dangerous". Guess what? That makes you dangerous, pal. The fact is, you just don't like too many people who have different opinions than yours.

    Hostile work environment? I can't think of a much more hostile environment than looking across the rig at a physically incapable "firefighter" who you can't depend to do much of anything, but is there just because some judge decided that equality is an acceptable substitute for quality.

    [ 08-10-2001: Message edited by: NozzleHog ]

  14. #214
    District Chief distchief60b's Avatar
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    I respect others opinions Nozzlehog....I may not agree with them just like you dont agree with mine...and we are each entitled. The fact remains that "opinions" are just like a part of the anatomy....and some stink.

    I took the comment he made about "100%" to mean on a written or assessment center. Most agility tests i have taken or administered are pass fail.....

    I dont think the academy tests are dumbed up as you say..... In florida it seems they taek certification seriously. With all my training and documentation and experience it took almost an act of congress to let me challenge the test. They don't "give out" anything. And...it is Pinellas County...check your spelling....For your information...the agility test to pass the academy is equivalant to the Combat Challenge. PASS/FAIL...not dumbed up!

    I will agree with you...if it happens anywhere it is wrong....but I am saying that in my years...I have not seen it.
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
    ------------------------------
    IACOJ Minister of Southern Comfort
    "Purple Hydrant" Recipient (3 Times)
    BMI Investigator
    ------------------------------
    The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.

  15. #215
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    Gosh you mean to tell me this is still going on?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

  16. #216
    Senior Member hctrouble25's Avatar
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    ***Maybe she's one of the microscopically small number of females who can legitimately do the job, but it's a safer bet that the agility test in those places had already been dumbed down to ensure the hiring of females, or that it never was much to begin with. The fact remains that departments that have real-world, physically demanding but validated agility tests hire very few, if any, women.***

    HELLO???? Where the hell do you fight fire? Most larger cities now employ a number of women in their ranks. I don't think these women would take kindly to you telling them that the tests were "dumbed down" for them. And I HAVE known some women who could kick butt on the fire ground....I have been known on occassion to be one of them. I might not be the strongest or fastest on the department but there are quite a few guys that I can put to shame on the fire ground. Sometimes it is NOT about pure strength but rather ingenuity and the ability to work with what you have that counts. I have learned how to overcome some of my obstacles such as a lesser degree of upper body strength, etc. Maybe the reason these departments with "real-world, physically demanding but validated agility tests" have a low number of women is because of attitudes like yours. I certainly wouldn't want to work and put my life on the line with a bunch of guys that didn't think I was capable, that didn't trust me, or that had it in for me. I would love for you to go to Florida, Worcester, NY, Boston, and Chicago with me and tell the women on those departments (many of whom are officers nowadays too, imagine that :eek : ) that they were given a break on the tests and that is the only reason they have the job. Some advice: wear your cup when you get there...these women are definite butt (among other things) kickers. It has nothing to do with being politically correct it has to do with accepting that someone different than you can do the same job as you. Take care and be safe out there.

    [ 08-10-2001: Message edited by: hctrouble25 ]
    Never forget those who went before and sacrified to make us better and stronger as a fire service and a nation. 09-11-01 forever etched in time and our memories. God Speed Boys!

  17. #217
    District Chief distchief60b's Avatar
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    HC....thanks for the post...I needed the support....Buckseng and I have agreed to disagree...but some of these others.....

    HERE HERE!!! Drop me an EMAIL
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
    ------------------------------
    IACOJ Minister of Southern Comfort
    "Purple Hydrant" Recipient (3 Times)
    BMI Investigator
    ------------------------------
    The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.

  18. #218
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    I started reading some of the posts and they were very different. I worked as a Vol for a full time department. We could come down and ride the trucks with the full timers. I was one out of 3 women that were vols. I got treated just the same. Now where I work we are all vols. We have 9 women and they all have to pull there own weight. If you can't you will get ripped on by everyone. That goes for the guys too. I made 4 structure fires on the first out engine and a (same) male FF and my self were on the nozzle each time. He told me he would rather go in with me than some of the guys. You have to pull your weight and do the job. HFPD47@gocsg.net
    "FIRST IN; LAST OUT"

    Drive safe

  19. #219
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    Thanks for the response nozzle hog. You are correct, it was absolutly not an attack but simply a valid opinion based on my years of service in the largest proffesional(paid)department in the world.

    To those of you who repeatedly state that woman have been "doing the job in these large municiple depts for many years now", I would like to clear something up. These woman have been on the PAYROLL for many years now. Did you know that in New York, most female FF's(about99%)are assigned to a firefighting company but they are then "DETAILED" to a desk job from day one. The department now states to the media that they have female FFs assigned to Companys thru out the city. Why do they get desk jobs from day one when a 20 year male is still "humping hose"? Did you know that they failed the entrance exam and took a special pass fail exam? While all males took a competitive exam.

    Some of you again say that they can do the job. Thats fine but just because one can do the job doesn't mean one should automatically get it. You still can't defend the practice of giving someone who can "DO THE JOB" preference over someone else who can do the job and had a higher score on an exam that didn't ask your sex or the color of your skin. Why would anyone in there right mind want the lower scorer? How come you pro "diversity" posters never mention any of this?

    What about hctrouble25 who says that woman wouldn't take kindly to one stating that these tests are dumbed down. Too bad, they absolutley are dumbed down. They didn't think it was unkindly to take the special exam. How come you can't understand the concerns of a paid FF having to work with someone who took a dumbed down test but you are sympathetic to someone who was given special treatment?

    You also state that you would like to see one go to these cities and state these views to these woman who kick butt. Do you live in a shell or are you just blind to the special rules that apply to only female FF's?
    If you ask a female how she feels about getting special treatment it is considered illegal. Gee is this the really the USA? where are all you 1st amendment fighters now???

    You also said, its mens attitudes that keep females off the job. What an absolute pathetic claim. Other peoples attitudes do not keep anyone off any job. Your own attitude and your own physical performance on a competitive exam(provided its not rigged to pass woman) determine if you get a job. How dare you even say something like that.

    Another statement you made defends "validated tests". The federal courts will only "validate" a test that specifically passes females ,ever wonder why they keep making then easier and easier. How come you left all of this out?

    Do you really think anyone really believes that an attitude can make up for a lack of strength? attidude is an asset, but only when one also has the strength? Why would I want to work with you and your good attitude when I could work with someone who is stronger? It is enginuity and ability coupled with strength that counts. Enginuity and ability are not replacements for strength.

    In all the major cities you mentioned the female FFs were hired thru rigged exams and bogus results. I dont have the time to post every changed exam but if you give a nonsense reply i will be glad to post every federal court intervention and every exam that was made easier.

    Unlike you, I have simply stated my opinion backed up by facts. All of your "facts" were
    bogus, you left alot out. I would also like to say that as a human being I don't believe in mistreating anyone even though I don't agree with how they came on the job. It would shock you hctrouble 25 but I actually get along with the female FFs very well, I just don't agree with the dangerous practice of having to work with weaker FFs. And yes, admit the truth, woman are physically weaker than men. Please save us all the argument about the one freak of nature, it simply doesn't hold up against the two groups as a whole. I would rather work with someone who earns it thru a REAL!!!! exam. The academy had to pass them too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    My statements are motivated by living my life in a profession were pure brute strength is everything. Anyone who tells you anything else is simply lying or blind. Society needs firefighters who earned the job thru feats of strength and not some nonsense exam that was "validated " by some idiot federal court judge. Courts don't rescue children FF's do

    HCtrouble25 how can you make all these nonfactual statements when you are not even a member of one of these paid depts? State some facts next time not your biased opinion. One may not like what I have said but no one can argue that it is not factual.
    Diversity is absolutly at the cost of quality or it would not be an issue. This country is going in a very dangerous direction when one is more concerned with ones genitalia then ones ability.

    As for you stan, Prior to making the physical in new york a joke so woman could pass ,it was alot harder then the combat challange. Why can't you competetivley score your combat challange? Why does it have to be pass or fail? Afraid the results would be thrown out by some liberal ******* federal judge? You and I both know that if your dept went to a real competitive exam, no woman would be hired so stop living a lie.


    Stay dry and stay safe winter will be here soon

    [ 08-11-2001: Message edited by: firemaster ]

    [ 08-11-2001: Message edited by: firemaster ]

  20. #220
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    It does not matter if you are on a full time department. I do the same as a vol. We are all firefighters. If you look at serving the public there are Police Officers, Emergency Medical Tech (basic or Paramedic) and Firefighters. Those titles are not sexiet. We all come to do a job and as long as you can do that job it does not matter. HFPD47@gocsg.net
    "FIRST IN; LAST OUT"

    Drive safe

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