1. #251
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    My fire department doesn't have a waiting list to join.......Most on Long Island don't because as the slogan goes we "work for pride and not a paycheck"...Maybe that's the problem. There's not enough pride out there?!? Somehow, I find that hard to believe.

  2. #252
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    I'm not trying to bust anybodies golf balls, but when I got off the bus and stood on the yellow foot prints it seemed like no one really gave a flying flip about who I was or how much weight I had to carry. When I left to go to Somolia I weighed in at about 365 lbs with my ruck, seabag, and other goodies we carried. I was not asked if I wanted to or if I could I was told YOU WILL DO IT. I believe it is different in our line of work. Some people choose to work harder than others. I'm not saying everyone on this post is a slacker, but people have a natural tendency to want to do things the easy way. It is human nature. The best I could hope for in Africa was that God get me back in one piece as long as did my job 100% all the way. There were times when I wanted to slack but then who would be picking up my slack. Don't get me wrong here I did my share of goofing off but when it came right down to it I wasn't going to let my friends die because I had sand in my shorts. I believe the saying: "It is 10% mental and 90% physical." You will accomplish any task you want to and none you do not.

  3. #253
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    mongo...pardon the mongoloid comment....it was off the cuff and inappropriate...I appologize.

    To your question about stan and william. As far as the test is concerned...they are equalin relation to the test standard. Yes...I feel that way. The objective of the test is to complete it in less than xxxtime. They both did it. As far as their abilities. Who gets hired? most likely the guy that finished first. Why? Even though they both passed the test (pass fail)one obviously finished faster. The administrators of the test will mentally note that and when "asked" by the hiring powers will most certainly relay "so and so did excellent on the test."

    Does that answer your ??? Now...one for you...Do you agree that with conditioning and training that the puking/sucking egg, not moving for 15 minutes firefighter can improve and potentially match the others time? If he does...which is the better firefighter?
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
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    IACOJ Minister of Southern Comfort
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    The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.

  4. #254
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    Mongo:
    I'm reminded of that line from the X-Files..."the truth is out there." The problem is some folks just don't wanna see it. For example:

    CaptStan:
    You did a fair job of talking around Mongo's question about Stan and William...

    "Stan completes all the tasks in at 4:59, one second before the bell rings, falls out, starts sucking eggs and can't move an inch for the next 15 minutes.
    BUT! He was done in the alloted time.
    William completes all the tasks in 3:00 flat and is short of breath, but ready to go for something else. Are these firefighters equal?"

    You replied: "As far as the test is concerned...they are equal in relation to the test standard. Yes...I feel that way. The objective of the test is to complete it in less than xxxtime. They both did it..."

    Here's a question for ya -
    Let's say you're that "customer" I mentioned gasping in the upper floor window...you know, the one with the smoke pushing out over head? Who do you want coming to get you? William or Stan?

  5. #255
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    FIRST OF ALL EVERYONE NEEDS TO TAKE A BREAK!!!! I have read the last two pages and everyone is just attacking everyone else. We are all here to do a job. If you can't do your job then leave because I don't want you on my line. I don't care if you are black, white, male, female, gay or anything else. I am here to serve the community that I live in and do the best job I can. We all do this job for a reason, some is money(sorry for that) and some for PRIDE! Read my last post "Firefighter does not stand for anything but a firefighter!
    "FIRST IN; LAST OUT"

    Drive safe

  6. #256
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    Fire EMT...well said...

    Nozzle Hog...

    William is what you want to here me say. But as a person hanging out the window...I dont know these guys...so I have no choice. All things equal at the end of the test...William will do a better job at this point. But...you did not answer my ??? All things equal......wont stan (I noticed you and him picked stan as the weak one)...get better with training and experience and working out and cant he potentially do the same on the test the next time as william....

    If I am haning out a window...as long as I gets my butt out...then...WOOO HOOO

    [ 08-14-2001: Message edited by: captstanm1 ]
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
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    The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.

  7. #257
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    Diane

    My fire department doesn't have a waiting list to join.......

    Like the military, most VFDs don't have a waiting list.

    Most career departments are overwhelmed with people that want a few jobs.

    captstanm1

    ...pardon the mongoloid comment....it was off the cuff and inappropriate...I appologize.

    No sweat, I got the nickname way back when for something totally unrelated to either.

    The administrators of the test will mentally note that and when "asked" by the hiring powers will most certainly relay "so and so did excellent on the test."

    Does that matter if so and so is part of a disproportionately lower represented class of citizens? Or should the disproportionately lower represented class get the job?

    Does that answer your ???

    Nope, but it does say a lot.

    I guess I should take blame for that though, I worded the question wrong.

    What I was asking, was are these firefighters equal in your opinion?

    BUT! In the interest of fiarness and equal opportunity, I'll let Bubba decide, it's her money and she's honest.

    Do you agree that with conditioning and training that the puking/sucking egg, not moving for 15 minutes firefighter can improve and potentially match the others time?

    Yes.

    I've seen it done many times. Bubba is a good example of it.

    Now let me ask you, should that person be hired based on their potential to improve their physical ability?

    In other words, is the hiring department responsible for getting that person into better shape or is the person themself responsible before testing or the expectation of being hired?

    If he does...which is the better firefighter?

    Hard to say, all other things being equal (competency, loyalty...) he can match the others time and still be winded and finished for a few minutes while the other is still rarin' to go. In that case he ain't.

    On the other hand, they could improve to where they had a better time and be ready for more and be more physically qualified.

    Of course, performing one of these fine, fair and equalizing PASS/FAIL tests still doesn't adequetly evaluate whether a person can do the job, just that they have the potential to do the job. It doesn't tell us if they're a coward or physically able and coordinated enough to do some of the things we have to do like pull Mrs. Jones from a third floor window onto a ladder and carry or guide her down.

    NozzleHog

    The problem is some folks just don't wanna see it.

    They can't, it weakens their position and forces them to look at the real issues and makes them realize their whole idea is based on lies.

    And I know I'm preachin' to the choir here, but...

    While I believe in and will fight for for equal opportunity, the fact is everyone is not equal. And equal opportunity does not mean equal outcome.

    Funny, yesteday was the 40th anniversary of the start of construction of the Berlin Wall. A wall built to keep people under the authoritarian nature of other people that thought that everyone was equal (except the authority of course) and deserved equal outcomes.
    It's only my opinion. I do not speak for any group or organization I belong to or associate with or people I know - especially my employer. If you like it, we can share it, you don't have to give me credit. If you don't, we are allowed to disagree too (but be ready to be challenged, you may be on to something I'm not). That's what makes America great!

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    Looks like the topic has taken a slight turn, which it should. I'm sure most of us agree that the real issue is about changing testing standards to be sure that we have a proportional number of males, females, races, religions, etc. to match the local population. I'm sorry, but I don't think it can be done that way. The population is half male, half female. I certainly hope the fire department doesn't end up 50/50. We all know there's a biological difference between men and women. Yes, there are women who will excel and get high enough scores to make it (depending on who they are up against in that particular round of applicants), but it will be a much smaller percentage than 50%.

    It may seem like a great idea to have a pass/fail test to allow more people the opportunity to get the job, but this isn't like a lottery to be won. In every other job they hire the best, not every person that can accomplish a set standard. If they really want a true cross section of the popoulation to be on the fire department, then they should just do a random drawing from the phone book and tell those people what their new job is. (sounds a little communistic doesn't it )

    If there are 40 vacancies to be filled, take the 40 BEST applicants. If I were hiring someone to work for my business, I would certainly want the best person for the job (unless of course you're looking for government kickbacks for hiring for diversity).

    Keep the test hard enough to match the job and hire the best you can get. KISS and stop playing the diversity game. May the best PERSON win.

  9. #259
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    ***We all know there's a biological difference between men and women. Yes, there are women who will excel and get high enough scores to make it (depending on who they are up against in that particular round of applicants), but it will be a much smaller percentage than 50%.***

    Yes there is a biological difference. However, I don't think that matters for some women...this is where the arguing began on this topic. There are women out there that excel over men. Is this a high percentage? No. Is it anywhere near 50%? Nope. But there are women - check out some of the women in Dade County Florida - who excel, pass the same test as the men, and do the exact and equal job both in the paid and volunteer world. I don't disagree that tests should be equal...if the guys have to run a mile in 6 minutes flat then the girls should too. If the guys have to carry a 45 lb. bag on their shoulders while they run the mile, then the girls should too. I am in total agreement with all of that. I took offense to the guys that said "women can not, should not, and don't belong". That is when I lost my temper. Mongo and eCappy and I have all had some pretty intense conversations about this topic. My main point in starting this was to find out what people's experiences were good and bad but then I got replies about how women only belong if they are doing their duty in the bunkroom (if you know what I mean), cooking, cleaning, etc. and I felt that was unfair and just a bunch of crap so I fought back. Yea, women and men are different, and that won't change...but if someone can do the job, do it equally to some of his/her co-workers (there is always going to be someone faster, stronger, smarter, etc....even for the guys this is true), and earns the job, then what does it matter? The most important things are that the job gets done, lives and property gets saved, and everyone goes home unhurt at the end of the night.
    Never forget those who went before and sacrified to make us better and stronger as a fire service and a nation. 09-11-01 forever etched in time and our memories. God Speed Boys!

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    captstanm1

    William is what you want to here me say.

    Speaking for myself, I want you to say what your opinion is, not the politically correct party line.

    Who do you want to say?

    But as a person hanging out the window...I dont know these guys...so I have no choice.

    Which one would you prefer?

    FF's SignfOthr

    GREAT POST!!!

    hctrouble25

    pass the same test as the men,

    This no longer means anything. The tests are easier than they used to be when they were designed to weed out only the MEN.

    I took offense to the guys that said "women can not, should not, and don't belong". That is when I lost my temper. Mongo and eCappy and I have all had some pretty intense conversations about this topic.

    I challenge you to go back and read all of my posts on this subject both here and other similar topics (do a search) and find one instance where I said women can not, should not, and/or don't belong.

    I'll save you the trouble, trouble, it ain't there or anywhere. Never said it, don't believe it nor do I feel that way.

    I do believe that this job takes a certain amount of physical ability and an extreme amount of emotional stability. If a person ain't got enough of both to pull their own weight and do what one firefighter should be able to do, they need to be somewhere else.
    It's only my opinion. I do not speak for any group or organization I belong to or associate with or people I know - especially my employer. If you like it, we can share it, you don't have to give me credit. If you don't, we are allowed to disagree too (but be ready to be challenged, you may be on to something I'm not). That's what makes America great!

  11. #261
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    Mongo you say...I challenge you to go back and read all of my posts on this subject both here and other similar topics (do a search) and find one instance where I said women can not, should not, and/or don't belong.

    And to this I say that I never said you did..go back and re read my last post...it says some guys...not Mongo.

    I'll save you the trouble, trouble, it ain't there or anywhere. Never said it, don't believe it nor do I feel that way.

    I know this already. I didn't say you did feel that way. Just that some of the guys on here did and that is when I lost my temper with them.

    I do believe that this job takes a certain amount of physical ability and an extreme amount of emotional stability. If a person ain't got enough of both to pull their own weight and do what one firefighter should be able to do, they need to be somewhere else.

    I agree 100% (there's a first time for everything I suppose) with you on this point. My main point was that there are women that fall into this category....and that the guys that feel "we don't belong" need to get over it cause some of can do the job and do it. That was all I was trying to say. Later.
    Never forget those who went before and sacrified to make us better and stronger as a fire service and a nation. 09-11-01 forever etched in time and our memories. God Speed Boys!

  12. #262
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    hctrouble25,
    If you're gonna open a can of worms.....
    I stated that was MY experience and MY opinion. It has been formed over the course of 8 different installations, and 2 continents during my 15 military years, and 4 VFD's over the course of my FF years. Perhaps I have lived in a shell that has exposed me only to a select few that have not lived up to expectations, standards, or abilities. I am sorry if anyone takes offense at what I posted, but I do not retract one iota. Just to humor, for your information, I have served under a damn fine squad leader, that just happened to BE female, and things worked great for the squad/unit/mission. And not to mince words or imply and wrongful actions, I was NOT saying that you DID or WOULD "bail" on anyone. I have read alot of what you write with great interest, and I don't think for a minute that you would.

    Mongo-YES. I actually AM proud to be going to Oklahoma! (great opportunity for my kiddos to grow up on a ranch there, and understand what HARD WORK really is.)

    Excellent, excellent points were brought up by all as far as the "military method of basic training" concerned. I can tell you one thing for sure, and that is that you DON'T want it for the fire service, or even the police service. Stick to the standards that have been put forth, and have our "politicians" quit playing this RIDICULOUS diversity #@$% type of GAME. Every body loses playing a game like that.

    FFSignfother-that commment was great--about "diversity"
    Oklahoma Bound!

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    As to my challenge...

    And to this I say that I never said you did..go back and re read my last post...it says some guys...not Mongo.

    OK, I can live with that.

    It's been a while for me, but think back to the english class we took in goverment skool.

    The statement about when you lost your temper is directly followed by a sentence referencing myself, eCappy and intense conversations on the topic. Since you are then discussing two different things, they should be paragraphed. The way it reads, not being busted up into paragraphs, is that eCappy and I did say those things.

    ...I took offense to the guys that said "women can not, should not, and don't belong". That is when I lost my temper.

    Mongo and eCappy and I have all had some pretty intense conversations about this topic...


    So, you have my apologies.
    It's only my opinion. I do not speak for any group or organization I belong to or associate with or people I know - especially my employer. If you like it, we can share it, you don't have to give me credit. If you don't, we are allowed to disagree too (but be ready to be challenged, you may be on to something I'm not). That's what makes America great!

  14. #264
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    Of course william is the best choice to hire and for the window rescue...

    But...can the "weaker" stan not become as strong or as capable? William may be stronger but does not necessarily mean he can do job better... My opinion
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
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    The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.

  15. #265
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    captstanm1

    But...can the "weaker" stan not become as strong or as capable?

    Yep, we said that already.

    William may be stronger but does not necessarily mean he can do job better... My opinion

    Got to hand it to you captstan, you're holding the party line like a kennedy (whose cars by the way have killed more people than any of my guns) defending a clinton, they would be proud of you.
    It's only my opinion. I do not speak for any group or organization I belong to or associate with or people I know - especially my employer. If you like it, we can share it, you don't have to give me credit. If you don't, we are allowed to disagree too (but be ready to be challenged, you may be on to something I'm not). That's what makes America great!

  16. #266
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    Physical ability and emotional ability are just two things - what about heart?

    If your heart isn't in it - go home.

    Yo mongo ... in my hood "mongo" is slang for "scrap iron" a rough, tough, mean, mother ......

  17. #267
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    HEART - gotta have heart!
    It's only my opinion. I do not speak for any group or organization I belong to or associate with or people I know - especially my employer. If you like it, we can share it, you don't have to give me credit. If you don't, we are allowed to disagree too (but be ready to be challenged, you may be on to something I'm not). That's what makes America great!

  18. #268
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    as long as they can do their job with no strings attached, i say welcome aboard.........
    Take care & Stay safe....Batt224

  19. #269
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    Hi Capstanm -

    Yo, skipper. Try this one on for size. Say you're the owner of a small business, and you rely totally on its income to support your family. Not an unrealistic scenario, right?

    Now, you have a position to fill, and it involves handling money from your cash register, unsupervised (think of this as - the fire department has a position to fill, and it involves protecting people's lives and property).

    Bob and Steve apply for the job. Bob has held jobs like this one before, and he is familiar with cash handling. He's got no criminal record, and he seems quite trustworthy. His references from former employers are impeccable, and he does well in the interview, demonstrating a detailed knowledge of what the job entails. Steve, on the other hand, while a really nice guy, who really needs the job, has not done this kind of work before. His references are also excellent, but it becomes very evident in the interview that he's not done much to prepare for it, or to study the job and its requirements in more than a cursory way. In addition, he seems a bit slow on the uptake. Nothing you couldn't overcome with some training and close supervision, but it's there nonetheless.

    Now, make the choice. Bear in mind that Steve could certainly one day become as good at the job as Bob (even though Bob could walk right in and start today). But what possible reason or rationale would you have to hire Steve when Bob can start tomorrow and excel?

    While both are in some sense "qualified" for the job, don't you have a moral obligation to your family to hire the person who will maximize your profits, protect your money, and require less remedial training, and less of your valuable time?

    Now, apply that to a fire department. Does not the fire department have a real moral obligation to hire the candidates who can best fill the position, in the most cost-effective and timely manner, with the least remedial training? I would submit, "affirmative action" notwithstanding, that there is a real moral issue here. The fire department, if it does not use and enforce the highest possible standards in its hiring practices, those standards being intrinsic to the job (not just invented ones, like "diversity"), then it fails its customers. It fails by not providing the best practitioners of the product it provides. It fails by requiring less of the less-than-favorable hirees. It fails by spending more tax dollars on what I would call "remedial training" (i.e. basics like physical fitness, physical readiness,...hell READING and WRITING), to the detriment of more advanced training.

    In short, I think your defense of the guy who is "sucking eggs" sucks. No offense intended. Yet, with PASS/FAIL, this is what you get.

    This is not to say that the egg sucker can't improve. But do it on HIS dime, on HIS time. Come prepared to take the test, and prepared to enter a fire training regimen, not just barely getting by.

    On the fire department's part, their obligation to the public is to provide the best service. Period. We're talking lives here. The only way to assure that is by hiring the best candidates, evaluated by objective, defensible standards, ranked by performance, in order to establish cut-offs for those that simply are not prepared, or not able. At some point, Cap, you have to face the reality that people are truly different, right down to their cores. It may not be "fair", but it's beyond human ability to fix. Some people simply cannot be, and will never be able to be, firefighters.

    I could get into a whole diatribe here on the concept of "cosmic justice" - an unreachable goal, since in order to dispense such we'd have to have perfect and complete knowledge of every single person's life, and some perfect and all-knowing way to rank the relative advantages and disadvantages we all have as human beings. The quest for cosmic justice (the title of an excellent book by economist Thomas Sowell) is one that inevitably leads to coercion, totalitarianism, and mediocrity. Anyway, off the political soapbox.

    Just hire Bob, Cap, and acknowledge that he's simply the better choice. Stop playing games with "Well, if I were in the window, I wouldn't know which guy is better or faster, so I wouldn't have a preference". Stop talking around the question and face it head on. Are there people who physically cannot be firefighters? Yes. Do they "deserve" a shot at it anyway? Seems to me you would say, "Yes". And that's disturbing.
    "Let's roll." - Todd Beamer, one of a group of American soldiers who handed the terrorists their first defeat.

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    The opinions expressed are mine and mine alone (but you can borrow them )and may not reflect those of any organization with which I am associated (but then again, they just may not be thinking clearly).

  20. #270
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    Its nice to see that most of us in this dangerous job support the REAL MERIT SYSTEM.

    What idiot in any industry would hire someone who can eventuallydo a job with the right training when you can hire someone who can do the job who doesn't need special training.

    Heart, Training, dedication, and technique, wonderfull things to ADD to the foundation of strength. What idiot confuses these with replacements for strenght? Who posted the comment that they prefer a smarter firefighter? You and I both know that the references made about prefering a strong fireman were never at the expense of intelligence. Why do you "hand the job out nitwitt affirmative liberals" always imply such untrue nonsense when you post a response? Just state the facts, not your generalized agenda.

    I want a paid fireman in my community who has the strength from day one. What is the alternative? Do we constantly moniter your choice thruout her career to make sure SHE is doing her weight lifting and technique traing every day so she can be EQUAL(yeah right)to my competitively hired firefighter who is strong enough from day one without any ...................?

    Why do you stan types always defend this nonsense with statements like "I have heart"?

    Yes you have heart, but you cant pull that equipment up to the roof by yourself!!!!!!!

    Hey, as the commanding officer I am going to develope a SPECIAL training program so you can learn techniques and abilitys to do that task and be equal to him!!!!

    Dont ever stop running and lifting weights or you will be unequal to that guy over there who hasn't had to work out in years but can still "carry all that equipment by himself to the roof".

    Hey Judy,Mary orBrenda, Do you see that 30 year veteran firefighter over there? Yes you are right, he is heavier now and a little older, not what he used to be. When he was hired, he was one of the greatest firefighters in the company. He came on and did the job from day one with no SPECIAL training to make up for lack of trength. Hey I just realized, what will you be like Judy,mary or brenda? You didn't have any of his abilitys when you were hired you had to learn to make up for your lack of strength witth heart and technique. And come to think of it, you never really physically became his equal anyway. Hey girls, what happens to you in thirty years? I could only imagine how pathetic a thirty year affirmitive action hired female will compare to a thirty year competetively hired male.

    Spare us the !@#$$hit reply about one particular female or male who are in great shape or poor shape. The previous statement is very accurate for both groups as a whole, you know it and I know it.

    Hey it was you who said" what about the old out of shape guy who......." What you didn't and never do when you nitwitt stan types make your argument is state the real facts. How come you compare a day one female to a 30 year male? Why not a day one male candidate to a day one female candidate. How 'bout a thirty year female to a thirty year male. Oh god!!!!!! this would be too fair and accurate it simply would not promote the agenda!

    You never really answered my question stan. Or more accurately stated, You never made an accurate argument of any advantage to your "Qualified female versus a competitively hired male"

    Stay safe and stay strong

  21. #271
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    Sorry Mongo, didn't realize that my reply would be edited for grammatical content as well...I am blushing since my job is as an editor of pharmaceutical documents...next time I will be more careful to break things into paragraphs so as not to cause confusion for everyone. Take care.
    Never forget those who went before and sacrified to make us better and stronger as a fire service and a nation. 09-11-01 forever etched in time and our memories. God Speed Boys!

  22. #272
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    I wasn't editing it - far be it from a dumb ol' country boy to do that - just misunderstanding what you wrote
    It's only my opinion. I do not speak for any group or organization I belong to or associate with or people I know - especially my employer. If you like it, we can share it, you don't have to give me credit. If you don't, we are allowed to disagree too (but be ready to be challenged, you may be on to something I'm not). That's what makes America great!

  23. #273
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    to captstanm1..sir, I agree with what you have said but ..yes I have seen females who have failed the agility part of hiring..not written though.. then get hired..this is usually seen in the smaller, more rural depts..who don't have the ability to fight the "veiled" threat of discrimination charges. And yes some have been promoted to gold badge office staff to remove them from the front line and possible associated situations....
    To hctrouble25 you sincerely seem to have good ideas......so what can we do to change back the tests to a level that represents true ability needs for firefighting? this new test will eliminate more weaker males and potentialy almost all females. but will be more accurate to needed abilites. How can this be done without the backlash that caused the tests to be changed in the first place? Thank-you in advanced..

    [ 08-15-2001: Message edited by: GO4IT ]

    [ 08-15-2001: Message edited by: GO4IT ]

    [ 08-15-2001: Message edited by: GO4IT ]

    [ 08-15-2001: Message edited by: GO4IT ]
    FF/PARAMEDIC/CORONER/TRAINING "MY DAY STARTS WHEN YOURS ENDS"
    **SEE YOU ON THE OTHER SIDE**

  24. #274
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    to hctrouble25..... you seem to be very clear on this.. so how can we change the test back to a test that truly represents the needed ability to be a firefighter? with out causing all kinds of backlash? thank-you in advance
    FF/PARAMEDIC/CORONER/TRAINING "MY DAY STARTS WHEN YOURS ENDS"
    **SEE YOU ON THE OTHER SIDE**

  25. #275
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    mongo.....

    no...at that exact moment in time....no..they are not equal...but in answering my question you indicated they could be. So...could the both be equally capable of doing the job. "Capable" not able...right now...one is more able....and the other is capable...

    In saying the testers make mental notes of who's who....I was not condoning that...but it does go along with what you want...in that case...the person doing the best....gets the job right? No...should not be given to whatever member of society it was that you were describing.
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
    ------------------------------
    IACOJ Minister of Southern Comfort
    "Purple Hydrant" Recipient (3 Times)
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    The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.

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