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  1. #241
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    I would have to agree with Stan on some aspects of these topics and with Mongo and Firemaster as well on others. I too have seen what "THE SYSTEM" can do for a promotional exam. It can get really ugly when the time comes for the bars and stars to be handed out. I know that most people that served in the military have seen some of this and it takes place in the fireservice as well. There is specific need for people in certain areas of the job and the alphabet soups that keep track of such numbers in Washington and else where, dont like to see that topsy tervy aspect on paper.
    I believe that the best person for the job should be awarded the position that they QUALIFIED for. Promote the best person for the position, not the best position to an available person. If you fail you fail"." end of the game , have a good day, see ya next time. You dont get a second chance to save the life of your co-worker or victum of a fire.
    Like my old Navy Chief used to tell me: "Do it right the first time you dumb@#$!! And you wont have anything to worry about."


    [ 08-12-2001: Message edited by: pwc606 ]

    [ 08-12-2001: Message edited by: pwc606 ]


  2. #242
    Senior Member huff317's Avatar
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    Wow, I have been reading this thread for about an hour now. You guys (not naming any, so you'll ALL think I'm complimenting all of ya!) have some EXCELLENT points.
    Let me tell ya something, I can speak from experience in the USAF Security Forces career field (15 years in)and tell ya, it's the same way with women in MY career field. They don't belong there. 1) It's a "combat" career field, and women do not fight the battles of the United States of America, 2) I also have yet to see the "best chick" out perform the average Joe on OUR evaluations and PT tests. Not to jump in blindly, I have seen alot of the same situations with different departments I have applied for and other vollie department I have worked on for the past six years--I have had more than one beside me on the fire line, and the same number "bail" for whatever reason, before me. I have never had a MALE partner leave me hanging. There, I said it, the same applies to me for my military law enforcement experience as well. These opinions are MINE and relate to ME only. If the shoe fits, however.....
    Oklahoma Bound!

  3. #243
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    17 pages of everyone agreeing that IF ANYONE; male, female, black, white, gay, straight, etc, can meet the demands on an EQUAL playing field, they should be accepted. Not one person has disagreed with that, the problem comes in with lowering standards for one group of people while other's are held at a higher standard, that's called affirmative action, and it stinks.

    I am a woman, I'm strong willed and independent. I am equal to any man as far as my worth, yet I know I can't do the job that most of you do. I wouldn't even attempt it, regardless of my strength, my nerves wouldn't handle it.

    There are women that can do the job, to them I say welcome to the world of firefighting. No woman, no man, no one, should be allowed to replace someone who is better qualified for the job based on gender, race, religion, or sexual preference. It cheats the person, the department, but most of all it cheats the public. You are entrusted with our homes, our safety, our lives, and we deserve the best person for the job, whomever that might be.

  4. #244
    District Chief distchief60b's Avatar
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    PWC606.....where you from? Drop me an EMAIL...
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
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    IACOJ Minister of Southern Comfort
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    The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.

  5. #245
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    Stan:

    "what zoo are you from?"
    "is that mongo as in mongoloid?"

    Let me be the first to congratulate you on your outstanding communication skills. What a brilliant and persuasive argument! How original of you not to let logic, reasoning and objectivity get in the way.

    As I suggested before, you are clearly too close...literally...to the issue to be objective and not fly off the handle with your emotions.

    ...and did you really say, "Just because you can finish something faster does not make you better"?

    Huh? Apparently you've never seen one of our "customers" gasping for breath in a window with thick, black smoke pushing out over their head. If you like, I can give you the names of a few local citizens who can attest to faster being better. Can you say, "reality check?"

    [ 08-13-2001: Message edited by: NozzleHog ]

  6. #246
    Senior Member hctrouble25's Avatar
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    huff317

    Just for the record, I am female, a fire fighter, and have never "bailed" on anyone in a fire! As a matter of fact myself and a male fire fighter I was in a fire with were left by our male Lt. because he decided to go see what was going on outside the building and left the hose line he was responsible for. Not once, but twice! He also almost got himself and someone else killed this same day because he stayed in the fire too long and started to get turned around in the fire. They both came out with very badly melted helmets and flashlights, etc.. I might not be a guy and good enough in your mind to do the job, but I know when to get out, when to go in, when to not go in, and how to do my damn job! I went through the EXACT same training the guys did, graduated at the top of my class and ALWAYS pull my weight. So what the hell is your point? I was the first one in on the last structure fire we had and I did my job and extinguished the fire in the basement with the help of another fire fighter. No special treatment..I sweated like everyone else, pulled hose and rolled hose, and went home exhausted just like everyone else at the scene. Some of you men really make me sick. There are women out there that can and do, and that is the point here. Yes some tests are dumbed down, and no I don't agree with that - but yes there are some women that want that...I am NOT one of them. Yes some women are weaker than men but then again some men are weaker than some women..so what is the point? I have learned to overcome some of the obstacles I have such as a lesser level of upper body strength, and in some cases being smaller is a blessing - confined space. If you can do the job, you pull your weight, you don't take or expect special treatment, and you are smart enough to get the job done then you belong there. If you are not then stay home. That is the bottom line. GOD, I wish I had never started this freaking thread! And Mongo..please don't start with me....I am not disagreeing with you, I am just tired of arguing about this. I do my job, I don't give a s*it what anyone thinks about it anymore, and I refuse to discuss it further. Thanks and stay safe out there.
    Never forget those who went before and sacrified to make us better and stronger as a fire service and a nation. 09-11-01 forever etched in time and our memories. God Speed Boys!

  7. #247
    MembersZone Subscriber Diane E's Avatar
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    Re: Mongo:

    "OK, then don't take it personally, but what a stupid idea!

    Lets put all 3,000 applicants in rookie school for six months and pay them their due and earned wages. (Let's see... one years salary is 32K, divided by 2, carry the 1... = 16K. Now, 16K times 3,000 = $48,000,000, not including benefits that they are owed like insurance for rookie school)"

    Well, isn't that pretty much what the military does?? Seems to me it works for them.....

  8. #248
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    hctrouble25:

    I, for one, am very happy that you started this topic. All the issues that it raised need to be thought about, and they all need to be openly and honestly discussed.

    It's been very educational because most of the respondents have posted messages that contained excellent advice or offered good opinions (yes, sometimes between the lines) based solidly on their years and years of firefighting. That's something we can't go out and buy.

    If nothing else, your thread has put a spotlight on the biggest problem in the fire service - and that is firefighters going through life with their eyes wide shut.

    eCappy
    EightyTwo@Aol.Com

  9. #249
    Senior Member hctrouble25's Avatar
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    ecappy - thanks! I know we have had differences of opinions from time to time, but I do respect both you and Mongo for your honesty. I agree that some things that were discussed needed to be, but I am just saying I am sorry I started this thread because of the arguing that got out of hand...and I did my part in that too I know. I guess this is so close to my heart and soul that sometimes I get offended or upset when I maybe shouldn't. Anyway, thanks for all the posts you put on here and for discussing things with me when my fuse was shorter than it needed to be. I appreciated it more than you know. Take care.
    Never forget those who went before and sacrified to make us better and stronger as a fire service and a nation. 09-11-01 forever etched in time and our memories. God Speed Boys!

  10. #250
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    captstanm1

    mongo....as in mongoloid???

    You trying to poke fun at people based on their race or those with Downs Syndrome?

    no matter what I say you will challenge and vice-versa...so....

    I didn't know answering questions (which you never have and Bubba's out ten bucks) could be so challenging.

    I thought you'd be able to defend your position with reason and logic. Now I know you just work on emotion and the PC perception of equal.

    And don't break that arm pattinmg yourself on the back, you ain't challenged anyone here yet. All you've done is repeated the party line.

    But, I'll give you this, you've stuck to it inspite of all the points clearly showing you how ridiculous it is.

    So lets agree to disagree and move on.

    So you wanna take a swipe and then cry "I quit," then swipe again?

    You voted in Florida for gore didn't you...

    To ask if "the fires are hotter" is absurd....just a point to start an argument.

    Nope, just wanted to know how different fires were for a real fire department. Just wann make sure I'm on one or if I need to move on.

    ....or do you use the scare tactic since you are so manly?

    Now see, if you read what I wrote instead of getting all bent out of shape you'd have read the part that asked if you have to put water on them like we do.

    You said you have had to do something that a weaker firefighter could not...hmmmmm..was that restricted to females...or both gender?

    What did I say, weak, male or female?

    If I had meant female I would have said female.

    I meant weak. I have always said weak whether it is a male of female.

    Is there anything that needs to be said to make that clearer to you?

    I am simply saying that I feel as long as the person can do the job equally as good then give them a chance.

    I agree, but that's not what you're saying. You're saying if they pass the test, they're equal.

    So let's try again, Bubba's willing to go double or nothing. She's a little ****ed because you already cost her $10, but she's willing to give you a third try...

    We have two firefighters, lets call them Stan and William...

    Stan completes all the tasks in at 4:59, one second before the bell rings, falls out, starts sucking eggs and can't move an inch for the next 15 minutes.

    BUT! He was done in the alloted time.

    William completes all the tasks in 3:00 flat and is short of breath, but ready to go for something else.

    Are these firefighters equal?

    ....but stronger does not necessarily mean male does it?

    Again, did I specify male or female?

    huff317

    I have never had a MALE partner leave me hanging.

    To be fair, I've never had a female partner leave me.

    Oklahoma Bound!

    Is that really something to be proud of?

    comwhite

    17 pages of everyone agreeing that IF ANYONE; male, female, black, white, gay, straight, etc, can meet the demands on an EQUAL playing field, they should be accepted.

    Unfortunately some of aren't smart enough to see that there isn't a whole lot of disagreement here. We must bow down before them and swear that everybody is equal and then they'll think we all agree.

    the problem comes in with lowering standards for one group of people while other's are held at a higher standard,

    AMEN!

    There are women that can do the job, to them I say welcome to the world of firefighting.

    Me too and it is my priviledge and honor to serve with anyone (male or female stan) that can and will do the job.

    NozzleHog

    Huh? Apparently you've never seen one of our "customers" gasping for breath in a window with thick, black smoke pushing out over their head.

    Sure he has, he's had too, after all he's on a real fire department.

    Diane

    Well, isn't that pretty much what the military does?? Seems to me it works for them.....

    Nope. It may be similar but it's not the same.

    Like the fire service, the miltary recruits and trains those who ask to join and are screened thoroughly. Generally both do a pretty good job of evaluating people before they are accepted for training. Sure some deadbeats get through but they're everywhere. Truth is, you can't throw a rock without hitting one.

    The military doesn't have a waiting list of people to join. They're always recruiting and they do not have enough personnel to fill the slots they have (a big thanks to those that voted for clinton out there for this).

    The drop out rate once you get to boot camp is pretty low, and everyone that is there already has a job when they get through it.

    On the other hand...

    A major metropolitan city may have 3,000 people apply for 100 jobs. 2,900 people are going to training for a job they'll never get.

    How can a city justify spending $46.4 million or more in salary alone on a recruit academy for those they know will not be there when it's all said and done?

    How will they justify the need for more space (classroom size - 100 people = 1,500 sq ft, 3,000 people = 45,000 sq. ft), instructors, apparatus, equipment, SCBAs, time for EMS ride outs for 3,000 people and all the other stuff we need to train 2,900 additional people for a job they'll never get?

    How will they justify training more than three times the people than the current entire frontline staff?
    It's only my opinion. I do not speak for any group or organization I belong to or associate with or people I know - especially my employer. If you like it, we can share it, you don't have to give me credit. If you don't, we are allowed to disagree too (but be ready to be challenged, you may be on to something I'm not). That's what makes America great!

  11. #251
    MembersZone Subscriber Diane E's Avatar
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    My fire department doesn't have a waiting list to join.......Most on Long Island don't because as the slogan goes we "work for pride and not a paycheck"...Maybe that's the problem. There's not enough pride out there?!? Somehow, I find that hard to believe.

  12. #252
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    I'm not trying to bust anybodies golf balls, but when I got off the bus and stood on the yellow foot prints it seemed like no one really gave a flying flip about who I was or how much weight I had to carry. When I left to go to Somolia I weighed in at about 365 lbs with my ruck, seabag, and other goodies we carried. I was not asked if I wanted to or if I could I was told YOU WILL DO IT. I believe it is different in our line of work. Some people choose to work harder than others. I'm not saying everyone on this post is a slacker, but people have a natural tendency to want to do things the easy way. It is human nature. The best I could hope for in Africa was that God get me back in one piece as long as did my job 100% all the way. There were times when I wanted to slack but then who would be picking up my slack. Don't get me wrong here I did my share of goofing off but when it came right down to it I wasn't going to let my friends die because I had sand in my shorts. I believe the saying: "It is 10% mental and 90% physical." You will accomplish any task you want to and none you do not.

  13. #253
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    mongo...pardon the mongoloid comment....it was off the cuff and inappropriate...I appologize.

    To your question about stan and william. As far as the test is concerned...they are equalin relation to the test standard. Yes...I feel that way. The objective of the test is to complete it in less than xxxtime. They both did it. As far as their abilities. Who gets hired? most likely the guy that finished first. Why? Even though they both passed the test (pass fail)one obviously finished faster. The administrators of the test will mentally note that and when "asked" by the hiring powers will most certainly relay "so and so did excellent on the test."

    Does that answer your ??? Now...one for you...Do you agree that with conditioning and training that the puking/sucking egg, not moving for 15 minutes firefighter can improve and potentially match the others time? If he does...which is the better firefighter?
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
    ------------------------------
    IACOJ Minister of Southern Comfort
    "Purple Hydrant" Recipient (3 Times)
    BMI Investigator
    ------------------------------
    The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.

  14. #254
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    Mongo:
    I'm reminded of that line from the X-Files..."the truth is out there." The problem is some folks just don't wanna see it. For example:

    CaptStan:
    You did a fair job of talking around Mongo's question about Stan and William...

    "Stan completes all the tasks in at 4:59, one second before the bell rings, falls out, starts sucking eggs and can't move an inch for the next 15 minutes.
    BUT! He was done in the alloted time.
    William completes all the tasks in 3:00 flat and is short of breath, but ready to go for something else. Are these firefighters equal?"

    You replied: "As far as the test is concerned...they are equal in relation to the test standard. Yes...I feel that way. The objective of the test is to complete it in less than xxxtime. They both did it..."

    Here's a question for ya -
    Let's say you're that "customer" I mentioned gasping in the upper floor window...you know, the one with the smoke pushing out over head? Who do you want coming to get you? William or Stan?

  15. #255
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    FIRST OF ALL EVERYONE NEEDS TO TAKE A BREAK!!!! I have read the last two pages and everyone is just attacking everyone else. We are all here to do a job. If you can't do your job then leave because I don't want you on my line. I don't care if you are black, white, male, female, gay or anything else. I am here to serve the community that I live in and do the best job I can. We all do this job for a reason, some is money(sorry for that) and some for PRIDE! Read my last post "Firefighter does not stand for anything but a firefighter!
    "FIRST IN; LAST OUT"

    Drive safe

  16. #256
    District Chief distchief60b's Avatar
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    Fire EMT...well said...

    Nozzle Hog...

    William is what you want to here me say. But as a person hanging out the window...I dont know these guys...so I have no choice. All things equal at the end of the test...William will do a better job at this point. But...you did not answer my ??? All things equal......wont stan (I noticed you and him picked stan as the weak one)...get better with training and experience and working out and cant he potentially do the same on the test the next time as william....

    If I am haning out a window...as long as I gets my butt out...then...WOOO HOOO

    [ 08-14-2001: Message edited by: captstanm1 ]
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
    ------------------------------
    IACOJ Minister of Southern Comfort
    "Purple Hydrant" Recipient (3 Times)
    BMI Investigator
    ------------------------------
    The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.

  17. #257
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    Diane

    My fire department doesn't have a waiting list to join.......

    Like the military, most VFDs don't have a waiting list.

    Most career departments are overwhelmed with people that want a few jobs.

    captstanm1

    ...pardon the mongoloid comment....it was off the cuff and inappropriate...I appologize.

    No sweat, I got the nickname way back when for something totally unrelated to either.

    The administrators of the test will mentally note that and when "asked" by the hiring powers will most certainly relay "so and so did excellent on the test."

    Does that matter if so and so is part of a disproportionately lower represented class of citizens? Or should the disproportionately lower represented class get the job?

    Does that answer your ???

    Nope, but it does say a lot.

    I guess I should take blame for that though, I worded the question wrong.

    What I was asking, was are these firefighters equal in your opinion?

    BUT! In the interest of fiarness and equal opportunity, I'll let Bubba decide, it's her money and she's honest.

    Do you agree that with conditioning and training that the puking/sucking egg, not moving for 15 minutes firefighter can improve and potentially match the others time?

    Yes.

    I've seen it done many times. Bubba is a good example of it.

    Now let me ask you, should that person be hired based on their potential to improve their physical ability?

    In other words, is the hiring department responsible for getting that person into better shape or is the person themself responsible before testing or the expectation of being hired?

    If he does...which is the better firefighter?

    Hard to say, all other things being equal (competency, loyalty...) he can match the others time and still be winded and finished for a few minutes while the other is still rarin' to go. In that case he ain't.

    On the other hand, they could improve to where they had a better time and be ready for more and be more physically qualified.

    Of course, performing one of these fine, fair and equalizing PASS/FAIL tests still doesn't adequetly evaluate whether a person can do the job, just that they have the potential to do the job. It doesn't tell us if they're a coward or physically able and coordinated enough to do some of the things we have to do like pull Mrs. Jones from a third floor window onto a ladder and carry or guide her down.

    NozzleHog

    The problem is some folks just don't wanna see it.

    They can't, it weakens their position and forces them to look at the real issues and makes them realize their whole idea is based on lies.

    And I know I'm preachin' to the choir here, but...

    While I believe in and will fight for for equal opportunity, the fact is everyone is not equal. And equal opportunity does not mean equal outcome.

    Funny, yesteday was the 40th anniversary of the start of construction of the Berlin Wall. A wall built to keep people under the authoritarian nature of other people that thought that everyone was equal (except the authority of course) and deserved equal outcomes.
    It's only my opinion. I do not speak for any group or organization I belong to or associate with or people I know - especially my employer. If you like it, we can share it, you don't have to give me credit. If you don't, we are allowed to disagree too (but be ready to be challenged, you may be on to something I'm not). That's what makes America great!

  18. #258
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    Looks like the topic has taken a slight turn, which it should. I'm sure most of us agree that the real issue is about changing testing standards to be sure that we have a proportional number of males, females, races, religions, etc. to match the local population. I'm sorry, but I don't think it can be done that way. The population is half male, half female. I certainly hope the fire department doesn't end up 50/50. We all know there's a biological difference between men and women. Yes, there are women who will excel and get high enough scores to make it (depending on who they are up against in that particular round of applicants), but it will be a much smaller percentage than 50%.

    It may seem like a great idea to have a pass/fail test to allow more people the opportunity to get the job, but this isn't like a lottery to be won. In every other job they hire the best, not every person that can accomplish a set standard. If they really want a true cross section of the popoulation to be on the fire department, then they should just do a random drawing from the phone book and tell those people what their new job is. (sounds a little communistic doesn't it )

    If there are 40 vacancies to be filled, take the 40 BEST applicants. If I were hiring someone to work for my business, I would certainly want the best person for the job (unless of course you're looking for government kickbacks for hiring for diversity).

    Keep the test hard enough to match the job and hire the best you can get. KISS and stop playing the diversity game. May the best PERSON win.

  19. #259
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    ***We all know there's a biological difference between men and women. Yes, there are women who will excel and get high enough scores to make it (depending on who they are up against in that particular round of applicants), but it will be a much smaller percentage than 50%.***

    Yes there is a biological difference. However, I don't think that matters for some women...this is where the arguing began on this topic. There are women out there that excel over men. Is this a high percentage? No. Is it anywhere near 50%? Nope. But there are women - check out some of the women in Dade County Florida - who excel, pass the same test as the men, and do the exact and equal job both in the paid and volunteer world. I don't disagree that tests should be equal...if the guys have to run a mile in 6 minutes flat then the girls should too. If the guys have to carry a 45 lb. bag on their shoulders while they run the mile, then the girls should too. I am in total agreement with all of that. I took offense to the guys that said "women can not, should not, and don't belong". That is when I lost my temper. Mongo and eCappy and I have all had some pretty intense conversations about this topic. My main point in starting this was to find out what people's experiences were good and bad but then I got replies about how women only belong if they are doing their duty in the bunkroom (if you know what I mean), cooking, cleaning, etc. and I felt that was unfair and just a bunch of crap so I fought back. Yea, women and men are different, and that won't change...but if someone can do the job, do it equally to some of his/her co-workers (there is always going to be someone faster, stronger, smarter, etc....even for the guys this is true), and earns the job, then what does it matter? The most important things are that the job gets done, lives and property gets saved, and everyone goes home unhurt at the end of the night.
    Never forget those who went before and sacrified to make us better and stronger as a fire service and a nation. 09-11-01 forever etched in time and our memories. God Speed Boys!

  20. #260
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    captstanm1

    William is what you want to here me say.

    Speaking for myself, I want you to say what your opinion is, not the politically correct party line.

    Who do you want to say?

    But as a person hanging out the window...I dont know these guys...so I have no choice.

    Which one would you prefer?

    FF's SignfOthr

    GREAT POST!!!

    hctrouble25

    pass the same test as the men,

    This no longer means anything. The tests are easier than they used to be when they were designed to weed out only the MEN.

    I took offense to the guys that said "women can not, should not, and don't belong". That is when I lost my temper. Mongo and eCappy and I have all had some pretty intense conversations about this topic.

    I challenge you to go back and read all of my posts on this subject both here and other similar topics (do a search) and find one instance where I said women can not, should not, and/or don't belong.

    I'll save you the trouble, trouble, it ain't there or anywhere. Never said it, don't believe it nor do I feel that way.

    I do believe that this job takes a certain amount of physical ability and an extreme amount of emotional stability. If a person ain't got enough of both to pull their own weight and do what one firefighter should be able to do, they need to be somewhere else.
    It's only my opinion. I do not speak for any group or organization I belong to or associate with or people I know - especially my employer. If you like it, we can share it, you don't have to give me credit. If you don't, we are allowed to disagree too (but be ready to be challenged, you may be on to something I'm not). That's what makes America great!

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