Why register? ...To Enhance Your Experience
Closed Thread
Page 14 of 15 FirstFirst ... 41112131415 LastLast
Results 261 to 280 of 282
  1. #261
    Senior Member hctrouble25's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    NJ, USA
    Posts
    356

    Default

    Mongo you say...I challenge you to go back and read all of my posts on this subject both here and other similar topics (do a search) and find one instance where I said women can not, should not, and/or don't belong.

    And to this I say that I never said you did..go back and re read my last post...it says some guys...not Mongo.

    I'll save you the trouble, trouble, it ain't there or anywhere. Never said it, don't believe it nor do I feel that way.

    I know this already. I didn't say you did feel that way. Just that some of the guys on here did and that is when I lost my temper with them.

    I do believe that this job takes a certain amount of physical ability and an extreme amount of emotional stability. If a person ain't got enough of both to pull their own weight and do what one firefighter should be able to do, they need to be somewhere else.

    I agree 100% (there's a first time for everything I suppose) with you on this point. My main point was that there are women that fall into this category....and that the guys that feel "we don't belong" need to get over it cause some of can do the job and do it. That was all I was trying to say. Later.
    Never forget those who went before and sacrified to make us better and stronger as a fire service and a nation. 09-11-01 forever etched in time and our memories. God Speed Boys!


  2. #262
    Senior Member huff317's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    Huffman, Texas, USA
    Posts
    106

    Default

    hctrouble25,
    If you're gonna open a can of worms.....
    I stated that was MY experience and MY opinion. It has been formed over the course of 8 different installations, and 2 continents during my 15 military years, and 4 VFD's over the course of my FF years. Perhaps I have lived in a shell that has exposed me only to a select few that have not lived up to expectations, standards, or abilities. I am sorry if anyone takes offense at what I posted, but I do not retract one iota. Just to humor, for your information, I have served under a damn fine squad leader, that just happened to BE female, and things worked great for the squad/unit/mission. And not to mince words or imply and wrongful actions, I was NOT saying that you DID or WOULD "bail" on anyone. I have read alot of what you write with great interest, and I don't think for a minute that you would.

    Mongo-YES. I actually AM proud to be going to Oklahoma! (great opportunity for my kiddos to grow up on a ranch there, and understand what HARD WORK really is.)

    Excellent, excellent points were brought up by all as far as the "military method of basic training" concerned. I can tell you one thing for sure, and that is that you DON'T want it for the fire service, or even the police service. Stick to the standards that have been put forth, and have our "politicians" quit playing this RIDICULOUS diversity #@$% type of GAME. Every body loses playing a game like that.

    FFSignfother-that commment was great--about "diversity"
    Oklahoma Bound!

  3. #263
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    DFW area of Texas
    Posts
    660

    Default

    As to my challenge...

    And to this I say that I never said you did..go back and re read my last post...it says some guys...not Mongo.

    OK, I can live with that.

    It's been a while for me, but think back to the english class we took in goverment skool.

    The statement about when you lost your temper is directly followed by a sentence referencing myself, eCappy and intense conversations on the topic. Since you are then discussing two different things, they should be paragraphed. The way it reads, not being busted up into paragraphs, is that eCappy and I did say those things.

    ...I took offense to the guys that said "women can not, should not, and don't belong". That is when I lost my temper.

    Mongo and eCappy and I have all had some pretty intense conversations about this topic...


    So, you have my apologies.
    It's only my opinion. I do not speak for any group or organization I belong to or associate with or people I know - especially my employer. If you like it, we can share it, you don't have to give me credit. If you don't, we are allowed to disagree too (but be ready to be challenged, you may be on to something I'm not). That's what makes America great!

  4. #264
    District Chief distchief60b's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    6,413

    Default

    Of course william is the best choice to hire and for the window rescue...

    But...can the "weaker" stan not become as strong or as capable? William may be stronger but does not necessarily mean he can do job better... My opinion
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
    ------------------------------
    IACOJ Minister of Southern Comfort
    "Purple Hydrant" Recipient (3 Times)
    BMI Investigator
    ------------------------------
    The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.

  5. #265
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    DFW area of Texas
    Posts
    660

    Default

    captstanm1

    But...can the "weaker" stan not become as strong or as capable?

    Yep, we said that already.

    William may be stronger but does not necessarily mean he can do job better... My opinion

    Got to hand it to you captstan, you're holding the party line like a kennedy (whose cars by the way have killed more people than any of my guns) defending a clinton, they would be proud of you.
    It's only my opinion. I do not speak for any group or organization I belong to or associate with or people I know - especially my employer. If you like it, we can share it, you don't have to give me credit. If you don't, we are allowed to disagree too (but be ready to be challenged, you may be on to something I'm not). That's what makes America great!

  6. #266
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Posts
    10

    Default

    Physical ability and emotional ability are just two things - what about heart?

    If your heart isn't in it - go home.

    Yo mongo ... in my hood "mongo" is slang for "scrap iron" a rough, tough, mean, mother ......

  7. #267
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    DFW area of Texas
    Posts
    660

    Default

    HEART - gotta have heart!
    It's only my opinion. I do not speak for any group or organization I belong to or associate with or people I know - especially my employer. If you like it, we can share it, you don't have to give me credit. If you don't, we are allowed to disagree too (but be ready to be challenged, you may be on to something I'm not). That's what makes America great!

  8. #268
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    1

    Default

    as long as they can do their job with no strings attached, i say welcome aboard.........
    Take care & Stay safe....Batt224

  9. #269
    Forum Member BucksEng91's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Location
    Warminster, PA
    Posts
    576

    Default

    Hi Capstanm -

    Yo, skipper. Try this one on for size. Say you're the owner of a small business, and you rely totally on its income to support your family. Not an unrealistic scenario, right?

    Now, you have a position to fill, and it involves handling money from your cash register, unsupervised (think of this as - the fire department has a position to fill, and it involves protecting people's lives and property).

    Bob and Steve apply for the job. Bob has held jobs like this one before, and he is familiar with cash handling. He's got no criminal record, and he seems quite trustworthy. His references from former employers are impeccable, and he does well in the interview, demonstrating a detailed knowledge of what the job entails. Steve, on the other hand, while a really nice guy, who really needs the job, has not done this kind of work before. His references are also excellent, but it becomes very evident in the interview that he's not done much to prepare for it, or to study the job and its requirements in more than a cursory way. In addition, he seems a bit slow on the uptake. Nothing you couldn't overcome with some training and close supervision, but it's there nonetheless.

    Now, make the choice. Bear in mind that Steve could certainly one day become as good at the job as Bob (even though Bob could walk right in and start today). But what possible reason or rationale would you have to hire Steve when Bob can start tomorrow and excel?

    While both are in some sense "qualified" for the job, don't you have a moral obligation to your family to hire the person who will maximize your profits, protect your money, and require less remedial training, and less of your valuable time?

    Now, apply that to a fire department. Does not the fire department have a real moral obligation to hire the candidates who can best fill the position, in the most cost-effective and timely manner, with the least remedial training? I would submit, "affirmative action" notwithstanding, that there is a real moral issue here. The fire department, if it does not use and enforce the highest possible standards in its hiring practices, those standards being intrinsic to the job (not just invented ones, like "diversity"), then it fails its customers. It fails by not providing the best practitioners of the product it provides. It fails by requiring less of the less-than-favorable hirees. It fails by spending more tax dollars on what I would call "remedial training" (i.e. basics like physical fitness, physical readiness,...hell READING and WRITING), to the detriment of more advanced training.

    In short, I think your defense of the guy who is "sucking eggs" sucks. No offense intended. Yet, with PASS/FAIL, this is what you get.

    This is not to say that the egg sucker can't improve. But do it on HIS dime, on HIS time. Come prepared to take the test, and prepared to enter a fire training regimen, not just barely getting by.

    On the fire department's part, their obligation to the public is to provide the best service. Period. We're talking lives here. The only way to assure that is by hiring the best candidates, evaluated by objective, defensible standards, ranked by performance, in order to establish cut-offs for those that simply are not prepared, or not able. At some point, Cap, you have to face the reality that people are truly different, right down to their cores. It may not be "fair", but it's beyond human ability to fix. Some people simply cannot be, and will never be able to be, firefighters.

    I could get into a whole diatribe here on the concept of "cosmic justice" - an unreachable goal, since in order to dispense such we'd have to have perfect and complete knowledge of every single person's life, and some perfect and all-knowing way to rank the relative advantages and disadvantages we all have as human beings. The quest for cosmic justice (the title of an excellent book by economist Thomas Sowell) is one that inevitably leads to coercion, totalitarianism, and mediocrity. Anyway, off the political soapbox.

    Just hire Bob, Cap, and acknowledge that he's simply the better choice. Stop playing games with "Well, if I were in the window, I wouldn't know which guy is better or faster, so I wouldn't have a preference". Stop talking around the question and face it head on. Are there people who physically cannot be firefighters? Yes. Do they "deserve" a shot at it anyway? Seems to me you would say, "Yes". And that's disturbing.
    "Let's roll." - Todd Beamer, one of a group of American soldiers who handed the terrorists their first defeat.

    Joe Black

    The opinions expressed are mine and mine alone (but you can borrow them )and may not reflect those of any organization with which I am associated (but then again, they just may not be thinking clearly).

  10. #270
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Location
    ny
    Posts
    14

    Default

    Its nice to see that most of us in this dangerous job support the REAL MERIT SYSTEM.

    What idiot in any industry would hire someone who can eventuallydo a job with the right training when you can hire someone who can do the job who doesn't need special training.

    Heart, Training, dedication, and technique, wonderfull things to ADD to the foundation of strength. What idiot confuses these with replacements for strenght? Who posted the comment that they prefer a smarter firefighter? You and I both know that the references made about prefering a strong fireman were never at the expense of intelligence. Why do you "hand the job out nitwitt affirmative liberals" always imply such untrue nonsense when you post a response? Just state the facts, not your generalized agenda.

    I want a paid fireman in my community who has the strength from day one. What is the alternative? Do we constantly moniter your choice thruout her career to make sure SHE is doing her weight lifting and technique traing every day so she can be EQUAL(yeah right)to my competitively hired firefighter who is strong enough from day one without any ...................?

    Why do you stan types always defend this nonsense with statements like "I have heart"?

    Yes you have heart, but you cant pull that equipment up to the roof by yourself!!!!!!!

    Hey, as the commanding officer I am going to develope a SPECIAL training program so you can learn techniques and abilitys to do that task and be equal to him!!!!

    Dont ever stop running and lifting weights or you will be unequal to that guy over there who hasn't had to work out in years but can still "carry all that equipment by himself to the roof".

    Hey Judy,Mary orBrenda, Do you see that 30 year veteran firefighter over there? Yes you are right, he is heavier now and a little older, not what he used to be. When he was hired, he was one of the greatest firefighters in the company. He came on and did the job from day one with no SPECIAL training to make up for lack of trength. Hey I just realized, what will you be like Judy,mary or brenda? You didn't have any of his abilitys when you were hired you had to learn to make up for your lack of strength witth heart and technique. And come to think of it, you never really physically became his equal anyway. Hey girls, what happens to you in thirty years? I could only imagine how pathetic a thirty year affirmitive action hired female will compare to a thirty year competetively hired male.

    Spare us the !@#$$hit reply about one particular female or male who are in great shape or poor shape. The previous statement is very accurate for both groups as a whole, you know it and I know it.

    Hey it was you who said" what about the old out of shape guy who......." What you didn't and never do when you nitwitt stan types make your argument is state the real facts. How come you compare a day one female to a 30 year male? Why not a day one male candidate to a day one female candidate. How 'bout a thirty year female to a thirty year male. Oh god!!!!!! this would be too fair and accurate it simply would not promote the agenda!

    You never really answered my question stan. Or more accurately stated, You never made an accurate argument of any advantage to your "Qualified female versus a competitively hired male"

    Stay safe and stay strong

  11. #271
    Senior Member hctrouble25's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    NJ, USA
    Posts
    356

    Default

    Sorry Mongo, didn't realize that my reply would be edited for grammatical content as well...I am blushing since my job is as an editor of pharmaceutical documents...next time I will be more careful to break things into paragraphs so as not to cause confusion for everyone. Take care.
    Never forget those who went before and sacrified to make us better and stronger as a fire service and a nation. 09-11-01 forever etched in time and our memories. God Speed Boys!

  12. #272
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    DFW area of Texas
    Posts
    660

    Default

    I wasn't editing it - far be it from a dumb ol' country boy to do that - just misunderstanding what you wrote
    It's only my opinion. I do not speak for any group or organization I belong to or associate with or people I know - especially my employer. If you like it, we can share it, you don't have to give me credit. If you don't, we are allowed to disagree too (but be ready to be challenged, you may be on to something I'm not). That's what makes America great!

  13. #273
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    IN,USA
    Posts
    64

    Default

    to captstanm1..sir, I agree with what you have said but ..yes I have seen females who have failed the agility part of hiring..not written though.. then get hired..this is usually seen in the smaller, more rural depts..who don't have the ability to fight the "veiled" threat of discrimination charges. And yes some have been promoted to gold badge office staff to remove them from the front line and possible associated situations....
    To hctrouble25 you sincerely seem to have good ideas......so what can we do to change back the tests to a level that represents true ability needs for firefighting? this new test will eliminate more weaker males and potentialy almost all females. but will be more accurate to needed abilites. How can this be done without the backlash that caused the tests to be changed in the first place? Thank-you in advanced..

    [ 08-15-2001: Message edited by: GO4IT ]

    [ 08-15-2001: Message edited by: GO4IT ]

    [ 08-15-2001: Message edited by: GO4IT ]

    [ 08-15-2001: Message edited by: GO4IT ]
    FF/PARAMEDIC/CORONER/TRAINING "MY DAY STARTS WHEN YOURS ENDS"
    **SEE YOU ON THE OTHER SIDE**

  14. #274
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    IN,USA
    Posts
    64

    Default

    to hctrouble25..... you seem to be very clear on this.. so how can we change the test back to a test that truly represents the needed ability to be a firefighter? with out causing all kinds of backlash? thank-you in advance
    FF/PARAMEDIC/CORONER/TRAINING "MY DAY STARTS WHEN YOURS ENDS"
    **SEE YOU ON THE OTHER SIDE**

  15. #275
    District Chief distchief60b's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    6,413

    Default

    mongo.....

    no...at that exact moment in time....no..they are not equal...but in answering my question you indicated they could be. So...could the both be equally capable of doing the job. "Capable" not able...right now...one is more able....and the other is capable...

    In saying the testers make mental notes of who's who....I was not condoning that...but it does go along with what you want...in that case...the person doing the best....gets the job right? No...should not be given to whatever member of society it was that you were describing.
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
    ------------------------------
    IACOJ Minister of Southern Comfort
    "Purple Hydrant" Recipient (3 Times)
    BMI Investigator
    ------------------------------
    The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.

  16. #276
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Posts
    10

    Default

    I was compelled to mention HEART as one of the many necessities that firefighters need in addition to mandatory superior physical strengh because that 30 year veteran used as an example in this thread is a 30 year veteran mostly because of the size of his heart. If his heart wasn't 100 per cent in the job he wouldn't have spent 30 sweltering summers and 30 freezing winters missing his kid's birthday parties, graduations, little league games, wedding anniversaries, and so on and so on. If his heart wasn't in it he could have very easily opted out years ago for a carpenters' job and been home every night and gone fishing every weekend ... and made more money too. What's the carpenters' scale in New York now? I know that the Ironworkers' (NYC Local 580 212-594-1662 call them if you think I'm lying) package is over $60 an hour now, and NO carpenter would settle for less than that. The 30 year vet is a firefighter we all respect because of the size of his heart, which he showed was huge, day in and day out.

    The problem this thread has is that firefighters with very limited experience from small fire departments that have very few fires are speaking like seasoned vets with beaucoup experience.

    Someone back a page or two said that this thread was an example of how some firefighters go through life with their eyes wide shut which was only a nice way of saying some firefighters have their heads up their backsides.

    How true! Firefighters that belong to departments with NO testing are trying to tell firefighters that have gone through, in some cases, years of testing what the score is. Come on ... get real!

    I don't mean to knock those firefighters that get 10 working fires a year .... I'm sure you're doing one hell of a job at them ... but that don't really compare to those that get 10 a week ... does it?

    What can a 10 fire a year firefighter tell a 10 fire a week firefighter about physical strength? Get real!

    My question for HCTROUBLE25 is how many fires did your department respond to last year and so far this year? NOT alarms, don't count the activated alarms and system malfunctions, JUST FIRES; where you used hoses and water?

  17. #277
    Senior Member hctrouble25's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    NJ, USA
    Posts
    356

    Default

    GO4IT - do you mean exact requirements in the test? I only spoke from experience in taking a physical for a police job and having to do the exact same test as the boys and having to qualify in the same time. I beat the clock but not by enough to be considered. Hell I have no problem admitting that. I had to run an obstacle course carrying a 35 lb. suitcase in one hand and could not switch hands or put it down..had to do a long jump...run across a gymnastic horse...pick up heavy objects and move them...etc. I think the fire tests in some areas are ridiculous...just by some of the things they have you do. What you should be doing is removing people from buildings, doing right hand checks, working with tools, climbing ladders, running apparatus, working hose lines, dragging hose lines, rolling hose lines, etc. Everyone should have the same equipment and the same requirements. I had to pass the EXACT same tests in the fire academy as the boys and I did very well. I even had to carry a guy twice my size down a ladder on my knee and drag a guy 100 feet as though I was removing him from a building - but we stayed outside. I had to handle the hose, swing the ax, climb the ladder, work with power tools, extricate people from cars, etc. No one gave me a break. Of course the other girl in our class thought that she should be treated special...showed up late, wore really tight clothes, whined about everything, and expected respect from the boys. They didn't like her, and neither did I. She made me look bad and I had to do more to prove I wasn't like her and that I was there to do the job. The funny thing is I got a new boss at work - my full time job away from fire fighting - and her good friend is one of the instructors I had and he told her that I took it seriously, did my job, and earned respect and that the other girl was only there to get a date. People see what you are in it for...and if you aren't there for the right reasons or are not capable they will know.
    Never forget those who went before and sacrified to make us better and stronger as a fire service and a nation. 09-11-01 forever etched in time and our memories. God Speed Boys!

  18. #278
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    DFW area of Texas
    Posts
    660

    Default

    captstanm1

    So...could the both be equally capable of doing the job. "Capable" not able...right now...one is more able....and the other is capable...

    No, not at the time of the test. You can't have capability without ability.

    Maybe in a few months if they improve, but not on test day when it counts.

    In saying the testers make mental notes of who's who....I was not condoning that...

    Trust me, you didn't have to tell anyone you don't condone it, same as I don't have to tell anyone I do.
    It's only my opinion. I do not speak for any group or organization I belong to or associate with or people I know - especially my employer. If you like it, we can share it, you don't have to give me credit. If you don't, we are allowed to disagree too (but be ready to be challenged, you may be on to something I'm not). That's what makes America great!

  19. #279
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    2

    Default poor sonny

    sonny, you need help in your understanding of the abilities and capabilities of women in the fire service.

  20. #280
    Forum Member MIKEYLIKESIT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Division 24
    Posts
    4,360

    Default 5 years later and...

    Its ALIVEEEEEEEE !
    IAFF-IACOJ PROUD

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts