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  1. #51
    Althea Forhan
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Unhappy

    Why is this a controvecial issue? You'll have to excuse me, after all I am a child of the '90s. But women have just as much a place in the fire service as anyone else--male, female, slave, free, blue-eyed, brown-eyed, gay, "Straight" Muslim, Christian, etc. The people who don't belong in the fire service are the ones who try to limit who can join to those that are exactly like themselves.

    When I did Civil War reenacting there was NO problem with women as reenactors. EVERYONE treated EVERYONE with an immeasurable amount of respect. Why can't it be the same in the fire service? Both fields have something in common--TEAMWORK!

    I'd love to be just another firefighter, but when someone says "What are you doing here?" I'm just like "I'm here with the FD, remember?" I know a department where it trully makes no difference whether you belong to one group or another.

    Althea

  2. #52
    ntvilleff
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Simple....because it is. (to all the bleeding heart liberals who think every one should have their own opinion until it differs from theirs...don't say the word dog in front of my dog..lest it might think it's a dog....)

    [This message has been edited by ntvilleff (edited 06-15-2001).]

  3. #53
    Althea Forhan
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Because why?

    (I can keep doing this--it hasn't been that long scince I was two)

  4. #54
    ntvilleff
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Well we all gotta grow up someday. Maybe someday you can too. HC graciously saw the point I was making.

    Althea, I'm sure that one day in the far future I will see your name in the headlines because you're suing the boyscouts for not letting your daughter join. (not that you'd be the first one)

    [This message has been edited by ntvilleff (edited 06-15-2001).]

    [This message has been edited by ntvilleff (edited 06-15-2001).]

  5. #55
    eCappy
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Wink

    Egotistical and self-righteous?

    Is that really the best insult you can come up with? I thought you said you were a firefighter!

    No answers huh? Well, I guess you have no interest in any of the many issues confronting NJ's firefighters. Oh, I forgot - you're still DECADES behind hung up on that 'female' thing.

    YAWN! ZZZZZZZZZZZZ!

  6. #56
    CRISPY*
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    HEY Althea Forhan,

    AND ONE DAY AT BAND CAMP

  7. #57
    hot DAMN
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Angry

    You know why this is an issue? Because unlike racial issues, which were wrong to begin with and had no basis in fact (Because this person is white,black,red, yellow they can't be a fireman because they are too smart,dumb,short etc.) the issue of women in the firehouse is a very real issue that effects me on a personal level every day I go to the firehouse. When a person is of a different race than myself I am not worried that they are not strong enough to lift the ladders that might be needed to rescue me from a flashover on a upper floor. When a person is of a different race than me I am not worried that they might be sleeping with other members of my crew and thereby destroying my crew integrity. If you can't see my view point for what it is : NOT SEXIST JUST REALISTIC then everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

  8. #58
    PA Volunteer
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Well, you wanted to hear experiences w/ women in the firehouse, so here goes ... we've had five. One lasted less than a week (and no, not because of abuse or whatever, she literally came to one drill and that was the only thing anyone ever saw of her, we didn't even have a chance to abuse her). Two knew their limitations and never really bothered to try to do anything, except be a gopher, etc. One was a stupid, flirty, slut - slept w/ a guy on the crew ... and that wasn't the only reason she was stupid - and she couldn't do the work either. And the other one was stupid, and she didn't know her limitations - this was the worst case scenario. She was there for the attention from the guys and the other perks. She also slept w/ a guy on the crew, and started a rumor that she slept w/ that guy's buddy (yes, she was mildly psycho). So, where are we now? You'll notice that all of this is in past tense. We're back to all male, and things are running just fine. There certainly have been plenty of males who couldn't cut it ... but you asked about experiences w/ females. I think it's possible for a female to do well as a FF ... I just haven't seen it happen yet.

    Stay Safe.

    [This message has been edited by PA Volunteer (edited 06-15-2001).]

  9. #59
    TheChronic
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Thumbs up

    I like women - firehouse - outhouse - penthouse - my house - anyhouse.

  10. #60
    AXMAN620
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Cool

    HI Y'ALL, I KNOW THAT PEOPLE READ THIS AND IF YOUR FROM THE OL' SCHOOL YA'R A THINKIN' THAT WOMEN FOLK DON'T BELONG IN NO FAR HOUSE!
    IF THATS THE CASE THEN CHECK YOR S@#* AT THE DOOR. YEARS AGO, I WAS INVOLVED WITH THIS HUGE DEBATE, IT WAS TWO FOLD. WE WERE A SMALL TOWNSHIP F.D WITH ABOUT 18 MEMBERS, AND TWO TRUCKS, 3 SECTIONS OF HOSE THAT WORKED...Y'ALL GIT THE IDEA. ANYHOW, A COUPLE MOVED INTO OUR AREA, THE MAN CALLED THE CHEIF AND SAID THEY BOTH WERE FIRFIGHTERS FROM OUT WEST AND WANTED TO JOIN OUR LITTLE FAMILY, SOUNDS COOL ... SO MEETING NIGHT DRAWS DOWN ON US AND ABOUT HALF WAY THROUGH, WALK'S IN THIS CUTE LITTLE LADY BUILT TO KILL AND RIGHT ON HER HEELS CAME THIS BIG HULK OF A BLACK MAN..... TABOO IN SOUTHEAST OHIO BACK THEN.....SO THE MAN... GREG... FELT THE HOSTILITIES FROM THE ROOM AND WAS NEVER HEARD FROM AGAIN. BUT, THE LAGY...SALLY.. WAS RAW-HIDE TOUGH AND WANTED ON. SHE WAS BORN IN HELL AND LIVED FOR FIRE! SO THREE MONTHS LATER, WHEN SHE WOULD NOT GO AWAY THE BIG VOTE CAME WE WERE ALL DISCUSSIN' THE ISSUE. NOW AS FOR ME I AM THE FIRST ONE TO VOICE MY OPINION, BUT I WAS BEIN' QUIET THAT NIGHT AND JUST READIN' THE ROOM. SO MY ***. CHIEF ASK WHAT I THOUGHT ON THE MATTER. NOW MY PAW' HAD A SAYIN' FOR EVERY OCCASION AND I FIRST TOLD THEM THAT WHAT THEY DID TO HER OL' MAN WAS WRONG. DADDY ALWAYS SAID " IF YOU GIVE A MAN 10 MIN. YOU CAN FIND A BETTER REASON TO HATE HIM OTHER THAN THE COLOR OF HIS SKIN"... WORDS TO LIVE BY Y'ALL AND AS FOR HER I SAID IT IN MY USUAL MILD MANNER STYLE " IF WE'RE IN A HOUSE, AND AN I BEAM FALLES ON MY NOGGIN' I DONT CARE IF YA' GOT A CO#^ OR A CU&@ YOU BETTER HAVE THE BALLS TO PULL ME OUT. WITH THAT WE VOTED AND SHE WAS ACCEPTED ON TO THE DEPT. SHE PROVED HER-SELF TIME AND TIME AGAIN IN BATTLE... AFTER THE OLD OFFICERS WERE GIVEN THE BOOT I WENT TO THEIR HOUSE AND INVITED GREG BACK.. THEY WERE TWO OF THE FINEST PEOPLE I EVER SERVED WITH....

    ------------------
    SEE YA' @ THE BIG ONE!

  11. #61
    Gill
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    I have to agree with Hot Damn. I'm not saying that no woman can do the job...just the excpetions to the rule. Most women aren't built for the duties of this job. Ask one of our female officers who can't pull a crosslay by herself. Or one of our lazy Apparatus Operators who would rather watch E! Television and Soap Operas than learn how to tie life saving knots. Or my favorite...the female rookie who curses like a sailor all day long but gets offended if someone says the word "pussy".

    This is not to say that men are better than women. We just have our different roles in life. Unfortunately, our society is buying into the genderless idea and think that women and men can do all things equally. It all looks good on paper, but not in reality. Many people think women should be on the front lines of our battlefields. How many women do you think could honestly beat a man in hand-to-hand combat when fighting for their life?

    If men and women are so much the same, how come we don't see women and men playing against each other in professional sports? If men and women's roles should be intertwined, then the next time it sounds like a thief is breaking into your house in the middle of the night...send the wife downstairs with the baseball bat while the husband waits in bed upstairs. I am afraid that by the time we all realize that the genderless society is wrong, our country will be losing battles in military conflicts and firemen will be losing their lives in burning buildings--because their female partners weren't strong enough to pull them out.

    ------------------
    I LOVE THIS JOB!

  12. #62
    Sonny Sampson
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Trouble......admit it, at least to yourself, that you are starved for attention and that the attention you are getting on this forum and at your station brings you bliss, possibly even total consciousness and iner peace.

    And the way you quoted word for word my replys...I think its possible that you might be obsessed and/or attracted to me.

    Another major concern that I have goes deeper than just the women in the fire service. Since standards have been lowered to accomidate the ladies....I'm seeing more girly men on the job that wouldn't have passed previous physical standards.

    So, Ms.Trouble, you see other men and say...."whatever you can do I can do better....."

    Well that might be true....because that pussified weak back punk you are looking at slid through an agility test made for a sally.

    I don't know...whatever....more fire for me.

    Is this stuff truly worth bitching about???? My theories generally fall on deaf ears....it will surely take something major, like women on the front lines of a war with their uteruses scattered about the battlefield, to reverse this contries obsession with putting females in male positions.

    Sonny

    PS: That was a huge sign of weakness to ask the webteam to shut this forum down...



  13. #63
    crashman
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Women in the Firehouse, Men in the firehouse. No difference. It's a job, not a nightclub. If a male cannot see a woman working without getting sexually aroused, he has quite a bit of growing to do.
    If a woman cannot handle the physical requirements of the position, the problem lies in the hiring procedure.
    I am married to a strong willed, physically strong female firefighter who was previously a firefighter in the United States Marine Corps.
    You boys want to get into an arguement about how physically strong you are as opposed to women? Ever been to Parris Island?
    This thread proves a point I have trying to explain to a young man I am mentoring into the Fire Service and into life as an adult male. He does not have the benefit of a father to teach him the respectable, mature man's way to deal with women of all walks of life. Not ever relationship between women and men involves sex. If you cannot take the sex out of a male/female interaction, your maturity level is lacking.
    I have worked with many women, when the tones sounded there was no us & them. It was us. In the Station there was little discomfort. So there was a time allotted for female shower ops, so what, I'm sure it made them more uncomfortable that concessions had to be made for their privates, more than it inconvenienced me if I wanted a shower.
    One fella said a women ff get's upset when she heard the word pu**y. Well let me ask you this, do you say pu**y when your mother or wife is in the room?
    Show a little respect. Oh yeah moan and groan about the fraternity, the tradition, whatever, the fire service in the 21st Century is a business. What is appropriate for business and how you act on a friday night out with the boys are 2 distinctly different things. If you act like this on a friday night, it's a wonder you ever get a date. Just a hint, women don't think it is attractive, of course if you have no interest in attracting women....well you know.
    May I recommend a course on appropriate conduct in the work place for any of you gents who are having a hard time coming to terms with the fact that women all over the world are doing things that have been predominatley male for decades.
    Let me leave you with one final thought, which I kind of touched on earlier but will expound. All women, regardless of their job or lack thereof, are someones sister, or mother, or wife. I'm sure several of the men here posting have at least one of these family members in their lives. Do you gents show a bit of respect to these family members? How would it make you feel if I worked with your wife/sister/mother and every chance I got to look down her shirt, or watch her rear end, or use vulgar language pertaining to anatomy I did it without regard for who this person was. Yeah, yeah, your a tuff guy, it wouldn't bother you at all, I know you call your sister/wife/mother weak and think she has no place in this MAN's world.
    If you have something intelligent to rebutt me with, I'm all ears. If it is still your position that women are weaker, they sleep around, they smell too good, they have breasts, whatever, don't even bother.

    p.s. to the original posting firefighter, you asked for it, really, you have to know you would get this type of reaction. Don't believe me?.. can't change peoples ways when they can hide behind a computer terminal.

  14. #64
    eCappy
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Thumbs up

    ".... there was no us and them. It was us."

    That's music to my ears crashman, and sums it up nicely - well said!

  15. #65
    ffguy083
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    What an interesting thread... too bad folks around here take everything so personally, but if those on either side took a moment to really read what the other side was saying it might enlighten them some.

    As far as my experience, it has been mixed. In recent years I have come to dread working with females on the job. Always wondering what I might do to offend them and be named in a Discrimination lawsuit. Unfortunately a few have made it difficult for the many.

    I tend to agree with some of the posts about females losing the prefix. I'm a Christian Firefighter, and I have as many issues as they have, but I don't sit around bellyaching about how hard it is to fit in. I think when we use labels like that it's called racism.

    Are femles in the Fire Service bad? Absolutely not!... Has it changed the Fire Service?? Absolutely! Is it a good change? maybe.

    And keeping this thread going, have any of the females thought about the problems they create for guys on the home front (I'm sure these are mutual). Especially when they are flirts. My wife is not the jealous type, but every now and then a female in the firehouse for 24 hours makes for some interesting discussions at home. Seems like seprate facities are a must!... and they need to be used, there is no reason for women to sleep with the guys, innocent or not, it's the perception, not the reality we need to look at.

  16. #66
    crashman
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Right on ecappy.

    The issue of men fearing discrimination lawsuits can be avoided by some simple professional actions. Yes, vulgarity is rampant. Personnl who have the most vulgar mouths are usually the ones who will quickly zip it up when there is a guest in the firehouse. I'm guilty myself. Although vulgarity is never appropriate, there are some levels that are accepted.

    Let's touch on the offensive words in relation to a female joining the ranks. It is the responsibility of a female to set her limits early, make it known her boundaries and stick to her guns. It sucks, but it's true, they really have to set down their limitations early.Sorry ladies but it is my opinion that this avoids trouble later.

    For example, my Mrs was the only female of a 24 man shift. She made it known right from the get go that saying things like f**k, p***y, etc were not acceptable to her. She didn't go nuts screaming at the guys, she professionally took this kid to the side and set him straight on appropriate behavior in the presence of women (firefighters and non firefighters, this kid obviously had a poor mannered father). Believe me this was much more effective then yelling etc. and no anymosity was formed. The word got out. Now here was the key, she stuck to these convictions throughout. Never a problem.

    What I am trying to say here is, if a female employee allows vulgarity or crude behavior to go unstopped around her for a period of time, she then has no right (in my opinion) to change her mind later and file a grievance.
    I have witnessed firsthand the trials a woman can be exposed to simply by being a female in a predominatley male environment.
    Concessions are made for sleeping arrangements, bathrooms, whatever, don't you think this makes it tough on a woman right off the jump? Right from the start she is treated differently. Just by the fact of her birth as female. Is it fair, no, Is it life, well yeah, can't change centuries of thinking in a decade.

    In response to those who give examples of weak females in their dept. Look real close at some of the males around you. I have guys in my station who can't pull an entire hoselay, who can't lift their own weight. Have some who can't miss the morning and afternoon showing of Sportcenter, and bitch when they have to gear up.
    Laziness knows no gender, neither does incompetence, ignorance, or plain ol' stupidity. There are just less of the females than the males and as such the males that fit this category have more people to hide behind. The ladies shortcomings are expounded strictly because they are already under the microscope.
    If a woman can do this job, in spite of the obstacles placed in front of her, I say she has overcome more than I ever had to, and I salute her.

    So I take the side of fairness, and in this forum I am taking the side of the ladies, Hey, I have no question of my manhood, you confident in yours? Admit your shortcomings, give a fellow firefighter the same respect you expect.

    Bunk room arrangements? Separate sleeping quarters/bathrooms etc. would be desirable in any house with mixed gender staff. Although, male and female in the same room would not be an issue if you can keep your pants zipped and your hands to yourself. Or keep your mind on your business. While in a bunkroom even while asleep your being paid to do a job, therefore to be a professional, therefore you should act as one. It doesn't all revolve around what you have and what she has and how they match up. Grow up.

    p.s. ffguy083, I do not mean any disrespect towards your honest statement but if a women in the firehouse causes you domestic upheavel, I venture to say the problem is not CREATED by another woman doing her job.

  17. #67
    bgfdchick
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Angry


    Well, Sonny, I hate your attitude/sarchasm, or whatever - but this forum is about opinion - popular or not.

    I knew coming into this service that its not politically correct. And I'm cool with that. My "brothers" treat me like one of the guys, and I think my sense of humor has aided to the respect and friendships I've forged.

    Next time I drag someone twice my weight out of a window, I'll think fondly of your comments and find solace that once again I've proved you wrong.

    ------------------
    Whoever said "the last man standing - wins" never asked a chick to play

  18. #68
    Sonny Sampson
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post







    [This message has been edited by Sonny Sampson (edited 06-17-2001).]

  19. #69
    Sonny Sampson
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    BigfdChick.....to correct you, it is politically correct for a female to be a firefighter.

    You see...your just in it to prove to yourself, to your brothers, and holy smokes, Sonny Sampson that you can be a fireman. THat's wrong man......firemen don't need to prove anything to anybody.....they just shut up and do it.


  20. #70
    Truckman22122
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Well, I've been just sitting back reading the thread, but now I'm going to put my two cents in.

    **Disclaimer**
    If you are a pansy *** whiner who gets upset when other people don't agree with you or if you are on a crusade to make everyone politically correct, do not read on

    I've had many experiences with women firefighters...almost all of which were bad. I've had females who could not throw a 20 ft roof ladder, females who could not carry the standpipe pack, females who couldn't drag a dummy in firefighter I, females who couldn't start or operate the K-12, females who couldn't handle an 1 1/2" trashline......the list goes on.

    For all of you who claim to be able to do the job just as good if not better than me, bring it. I have yet to see a woman who could hold her own on the fireground. All of you women out there who post how good you are, come proove it to me.

    The fire service is resistive to women in the firehouse because of this. Anatomically speaking, women are different from men. They don't have to same upper body build as men do. Thus, most women just do not possess the strength needed to do the job. You can argue that this is wrong all you want, but it still won't change it.

    The point is, you can post all you want how you are your department's all-star but you might be the exception. Most women have no business being on the fireground. If you want to show me how good you really are and proove me wrong...come ride in the ghetto. If we don't eat you alive than I'll change my views. Until then, I stand firm in that women should not be riding the fire trucks.

  21. #71
    Althea Forhan
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Originally posted by ntvilleff:
    Well we all gotta grow up someday. Maybe someday you can too. HC graciously saw the point I was making.

    Althea, I'm sure that one day in the far future I will see your name in the headlines because you're suing the boyscouts for not letting your daughter join. (not that you'd be the first one)

    [This message has been edited by ntvilleff (edited 06-15-2001).]

    [This message has been edited by ntvilleff (edited 06-15-2001).]
    EXCUSE ME!!! Scince when does the fire service limit itself to men? I couldn't care less that the BOY Scouts doesen't allow GIRLS. They're the Boy Scouts after all. Am I going to try to join the National Association for Men's Health? NO! Anyways, my kids aren't going to need the Scouts to teach them to camp--that comes in with the baby food. The fire service is an all-gender all-race organization, is it not? Don't try to tell me that it was the caveman who put the fire out--it could just as likely been the cavewoman. And let me remind all of you--you came awful close to being a girl too.

    Althea

  22. #72
    Althea Forhan
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Originally posted by hot DAMN:
    You know why this is an issue? Because unlike racial issues, which were wrong to begin with and had no basis in fact (Because this person is white,black,red, yellow they can't be a fireman because they are too smart,dumb,short etc.) the issue of women in the firehouse is a very real issue that effects me on a personal level every day I go to the firehouse. When a person is of a different race than myself I am not worried that they are not strong enough to lift the ladders that might be needed to rescue me from a flashover on a upper floor. When a person is of a different race than me I am not worried that they might be sleeping with other members of my crew and thereby destroying my crew integrity. If you can't see my view point for what it is : NOT SEXIST JUST REALISTIC then everyone is entitled to their own opinion.
    I understand and respect that you are afraid I might not be able to pull you out--and I know what my limitations are. But everyone has them, male of female. I also understand what you're saying about crew integrity--but I think that anyone who shows that lack of restraint should be fired--but we're not all like that. I can't stand women like that either. They disgust me.

    Althea

  23. #73
    Althea Forhan
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Originally posted by Sonny Sampson:
    Trouble......admit it, at least to yourself, that you are starved for attention and that the attention you are getting on this forum and at your station brings you bliss, possibly even total consciousness and iner peace.

    And the way you quoted word for word my replys...I think its possible that you might be obsessed and/or attracted to me.

    Another major concern that I have goes deeper than just the women in the fire service. Since standards have been lowered to accomidate the ladies....I'm seeing more girly men on the job that wouldn't have passed previous physical standards.

    So, Ms.Trouble, you see other men and say...."whatever you can do I can do better....."

    Well that might be true....because that pussified weak back punk you are looking at slid through an agility test made for a sally.

    I don't know...whatever....more fire for me.

    Is this stuff truly worth bitching about???? My theories generally fall on deaf ears....it will surely take something major, like women on the front lines of a war with their uteruses scattered about the battlefield, to reverse this contries obsession with putting females in male positions.

    Sonny

    So if you would rather die than be pulled out of a fire--why do you care about physical tests?

  24. #74
    Sonny Sampson
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    It's simple Forhan......I don't sit here and worry about me me me......I care about my department, my company, the reputation and tradition of the fire service, and the people who rely on us to be our best.

    I'm not worried about you dragging me out...if I f****d up oh well s**t happens, have a hell a party and sprinkle my ashes in the booster tank.

    I'm worried about the woman on the 2nd floor that needs you to throw that ladder by yourself, or that second alarm that should have been a room and contents because you took a break on the 3rd floor.


  25. #75
    Jake295885
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Althea,
    It's very obvious that you have never been inside a REAL fire. Get over yourself, girl. Would you go into a fire with someone who couldn't pull you out if necessary??? I think not!! You have strong men backing you up. Who do we have?!?!!?

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