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  1. #126
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    You seem to know quite a bit about me, have we met?

    I understand the demands on firefighters, and I realize the need for physical fitness, and mental fitness. I don't understand denying anyone who meets those qualifications the ability to persue the career based on gender. As I said in my original post, I don't believe everyone is cut out for the job, be it male or female, and I don't think standards should be reduced for anyone, male or female, to make the cut. I do believe if they meet the standards they should be accepted just as you were.

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    Thumbs down

    I think nozzlehog has been on the roids to long and it is having an effect on his powers of logic. It 2001 and virtually all gender restrictions have been removed. References to the military are not totally correct - re women on the front line and that policy is under review in all military services world wide. The sooner dinosaurs such as nozzle hog retire the better.
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  3. #128
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    I can not have an unbiased attitude on this issue. It's been comprimised because my Grandmother and two aunts were firefighters.

    The women signed up because WW2 created a serious manpower shortage. They used canister masks, those old heavy 1940s hoses, tin helmets, raised heavy wooden ladders, and drove 500 gpm squared gear 'pumpers' that had 250 gallon tanks. They didn't have fire academies and learned from some old timers that were more used to the hand crank start chemical units of their time.

    The women had to 'carpool' to fires - no cars or worse yet, NO GAS to even drive their cars, it was rationed. Someone, a teenager usualy, had to go to the firehouse and watch their kids.

    NONE of the ladies received a dime and NONE of them received any benefits when they passed away later in life because the state didn't recognize females. It was males only back then 21 to 35 years old.

    Those ladies saw a need, asked no questions, asked no favors, but stepped up and met the challenge. Try telling one of them that females can't do the job.

    At present time my niece is a firefighter. My Lieutenant is a female. My, repeat MY experiences with all the other women I know in the fire service have been good.

    I honestly do not think that any of the females I know have been given any slack, given any special 'easier' treatment, or allowed to shun any duties or responsibilities.

    Actually the opposite has been true. The females I know have been put through the wringer and given a much rougher 'litmus test' so to say than their brothers and even though they were dumped on and pushed to and beyond limits they came through. I respect what they did to earn where they are now and what they do each day.

    Hey, it my 2 cents.

  4. #129
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    wrongway...thank you so much for that info. I hope it makes others stop and think. I understand that I won't always be accepted by every single "male" fire fighter out there, and I can live with that. All I ever ask is for guys to give me a chance to prove myself. Are there a lot of guys out there that are stronger? Sure. But there are some guys that I am stronger than as well. It works both ways. I have been inside structure fires and have held my own. That is what counts. This whole lifestyle is built on team relationships...in order to have a successful team we all have to be willing to work together..that is the foundation. If someone chooses not to work wtih me or not to work well with me because I am female then the rest of the team suffers. Thanks again for your wonderful story and the info you provided. It was appreciated.

  5. #130
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    There is about 1/5 of the ff's in my department are women. We take the same physical agility test as the men. every member of my department can if needed pull out everyone else. Women are not treated any different in or out of the fire. The bunkroom sleeps both women and men. The bathroom upstairs is for both sexes. There is 2 bathrooms down stairs both are used by both sexes. The only problem at the firehouse is that the guys will only work with the female ff's that are skinny and cute. The rest of the female ff's get left out. Some of the women ff's are stronger then the male ff's in my department.
    suzie

  6. #131
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    I'm the only female firefighter on one department that boasts of about 11 members and one of about ... ten female firefighters on another department that boasts of about 50 members. To be honest, the guys treat me like a firefighter and I never really think along the lines of, "I'm a female firefighter." I'm just a fellow firefighter! If is screw up I get repremanded as a firefighter that screwed up. If I do well I get praised for being a firefighter that does well. I'm rather satisfied with this!
    But the kids and adults in the community are so dang cute! I often hear, "Oh look - a girl firefighter! Wow!"
    Probie Name: HurryUpMichelle!!

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    female/male it all the same if they do the job..We have female FireFighters that can't pass the same agility tests as everyone else but the females push for special treatment be cause our local depts. don't have the ability to fight them if they are disiplined or released as their male counterparts are as needed. so they are getting a free ride and they know it. and don't even think of passing them up for a promotion they are NOT qualified for.
    FF/PARAMEDIC/CORONER/TRAINING "MY DAY STARTS WHEN YOURS ENDS"
    **SEE YOU ON THE OTHER SIDE**

  8. #133
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    Originally posted by comwhite:
    I understand the demands on firefighters, and I realize the need for physical fitness, and mental fitness. I don't understand denying anyone who meets those qualifications the ability to persue the career based on gender. As I said in my original post, I don't believe everyone is cut out for the job, be it male or female, and I don't think standards should be reduced for anyone, male or female, to make the cut. I do believe if they meet the standards they should be accepted just as you were.
    ComWhite:
    Well then, perhaps our views aren't such extreme opposites after all. If you'll read back to my first post on this thread I said:
    "The real issue with women in the fire service is physical ability, or the lack thereof, to do the job...plain and simple, the vast majority of females can't physically perform tasks requiring upper body strength as well as a below average male.
    ...firefighting really is physically demanding work that requires upper body strength.
    ...most departments have either lowered or done away with physical ability standards to accomodate the hiring of women? How is that acceptable? Why is it tolerated?
    ...fire doesn't care about political correctness, ...it does not lower the standards to accomodate your gender.
    So you see, I never said that women should be absolutely disqualified from holding positions as firefighters and I don't advocate that. My contention is that:

    1.) In too many departments the physical ability standards have been lowered to accomodate the hiring of women. This results in an inferior workforce of weak, and therefore unsafe, firefighters - male and female, I personally find this practice reprehensible and irresponsible...a sellout to the liberal left who want their version of "equality" at any cost, right or wrong.

    2.) My own experience has been that female firefighters are not physically up to the task. I have observed this on numerous occasions over a number of years. Maybe there are some, but I haven't seen her yet and I really don't think there are too many out there. Regardless of who likes it and who doesn't, nature made boys and girls differently. Remember that from grade school? It is a biological fact that the "average" female is smaller, has more body fat, and is not as physically strong as the "average" male. I used the example of females not being eligible for ground combat in the military to illustrate this point, not to suggest a nationwide ban on women in the fire service.

    Wombat:
    What the he11 is a wombat? Oh, I see, an Australian squirrel. How appropriate.

  9. #134
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    I like the hyphenated arguement myself.

    So, physical phitness issues aside:

    "There is no room in this country for hyphenated [firefighters]...A hyphenated [firefighter] is not a [firefighter] at all. [Firefighter] is a matter of the spirit, and of the soul. The one absolutely certain way of bringing this [profession] to ruin, of preventing all possibility of its continuing to be a [profession] at all, would be to permit it to become a tangle of squabbling [identities], an intricate knot of [female-firefighters], [Irish-firefighters], [Hispanic-firefighters], [Black-firefighters], [White-firefighters]...each preserving its separate identity.... There is no such thing as a hyphenated [firefighter] who is a good [firefighter]."

    Bonus points!!!

    The word firefighter has replaced another word hammered by hyphens (hence the brackets).

    What is the word firefighter replaced?

    Who said the quote?
    It's only my opinion. I do not speak for any group or organization I belong to or associate with or people I know - especially my employer. If you like it, we can share it, you don't have to give me credit. If you don't, we are allowed to disagree too (but be ready to be challenged, you may be on to something I'm not). That's what makes America great!

  10. #135
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    To Nozzlehog
    I would rather be a live wombat than an extinct dinosaur. Wombats adapt to changes in their environment. Their slogan is "Eats Roots and Leaves" which probably explains there survival. The fire service needs the girls to fill gaps in skill. Size is not really relevant. In Japan the average fireman is smaller than the average western woman. Been there and seen it with my own eyes. Why is that size person deemed suitable in Japan and not in your eyes?
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  11. #136
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    Wow! I'm very surprised by the negative views on women in the fire service. I guess I was living in another world because I thought we were accepted by all of the men in the fire service. I guess there are some of you that don't want us.
    I can't stand up and say that "women are as strong as men" etc etc because most of us aren't but...maybe we are. When I was a helicopter mechanic in the Navy I often ran into situations where I couldn't move heavy objects in the same manner that the guys did so I used a different approach. When you lack the brawn, use the brain! I find myself doing the same as a firefighter. And when I am too weak to do a firefighting task then I go and I work out in the gym. I'll be the fist to admit that it scares the daylights out of me when I realize I can't do something because of my lack of physical strength but I try to become stronger so that I can. Yeah, I'll never be as strong as a big burly guy but my heart is in it and I do my best.
    In my departments the physical agility tests are exactly the same for both men and women and so is the training and the advancement. Usually the only folks that notice I'm a "Female-Firefighter" are the public! It never really enters my mind and I've never heard one of our male firefighters calling me anything but "firefighter." (ok, I'll admit I get called "Dang Probie" too hahaha) The only time I get a rebuke or irritated look is when I screw up - and it's not because I'm a Female-Firefighter screwing up, it's because I'm a firefighter who is screwing up.
    It worries me that there is such animosity towards females in the fire service. Is it founded in reality or are there old-school prejudices against women that bring this out?
    No matter what, I'm glad I'm a firefighter and I'm not going to stop any time soon.
    Probie Name: HurryUpMichelle!!

  12. #137
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    ATHELA, OR WHATEVER YOUR NAME IS, YOUR IN FOR A LONG CARRER IF THIS IS THE MIND SET YOU HAVE BEFORE YOU EVEN BECOME A FIREFIGHTER, WORRY ABOUT TRAINING YOURSELF FOR ONE OF THE MOST DIFFICULT AND DANGEROUS JOBS IN THE WORLD, AND DONT WORRY ABOUT WHERE YOU ARE GOING TO TAKE A SHOWER OR TAKE A ****, WORRY ABOUT THE THINGS THAT ARE IMPORTANT WHEN THE RUBBER MEETS THE ROAD, AND PEOPLES LIVES, INCLUDING YOURS AT AT STAKE. AND DONT REPRESENT YOURSELF AS A FIREFIGHTER IF YOUR ONLY AN EXPLORER, BECAUSE THE MEN AND WOMEN IN AMERICAS FIRE SERVICE ARE PART OF A PROUD AND HONORABLE PROFESSION, WE DONT DO IT BECAUSE ITS COOL.

  13. #138
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    I have had the privelege of serving alongside several women in the fire service, including some holding the ranks of Captain, Battalion Chief, Deputy Chief and Chief.

    Each individual in the fire services has their particular strengths and weaknesses... While stereotypically women do not have the upper body strength of many of their male counterparts, the offer other strengths which outweigh these perceived weaknesses.

    As a Fire Service Instructor I have come to note that women typically can control their breathing rate noticeably longer then their male counterparts, allowing them "more time inside". Also, in my capacity as an instructor, I have noticed that the women are typically more motivated than the guys...

    Bottom line, everyone in the fire service has their own limitations and not because of sex or race, but because of build, physical fitness, etc.

  14. #139
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    Michelle: Not only are there a lot of negative comments coming in, but many of the men are taking offense to the term "female fire fighter". They feel that by using this term that we want to be treated differently or in special manner. You hit it on the head when you said that the public is the place where we are called "female" most often. And I said this very same thing about 100 xs in my posts on this board. Unfortunately it didn't always sink in that I was saying this. Either way, I agree....when I am at the firehouse or around many fire fighters of the male gender, I am just another fire fighter. However, there are some fire fighters of the male gender who treat me differently because I am female, and the public most definitely does. The other thing I have said several times is that I often hear the term "fireMAN" used....so why is it a crime to classify myself as a "female fire fighter or fireWOMAN"? Last time I checked I didn't have the..... uuummm ......equipment to be called a MAN. I don't take offense to being called a female fire fighter and if anyone should be offended it should be me as a woman....I guess some people will just never get it. Thanks for your great post. Take care.
    Never forget those who went before and sacrified to make us better and stronger as a fire service and a nation. 09-11-01 forever etched in time and our memories. God Speed Boys!

  15. #140
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    I don't mind being called a firewoman, female firefighter, or fireman. Doesn't bug me! I'm a woman and if folks want to identify me as such I don't care. My firefighters treat me good and all the other firefighters I ever came into contact with treat me good. Every now and then a fellow firefighter will say something like "You're a girl ff? Great!" and the Public just eats it up. I've had parents bring their little daughters up to me and say, "My girl wants to be a firefighter when she grows up!" and the daughter will be grinning from ear-to-ear because she sees that she can follow her dreams. That's always rewarding!
    The only time I've really encountered gender-specific treatment in the fire department is when another firefighter is about to swear and then he looks at me and holds his tounge - or when a firefighter says, "We shouldn't talk about that right now." and looks over at me. I don't mind. I'm not fond of dirty talk or swears (even though I have let out a few myself when I get hurt or something haha) and if my brothers want to talk nice around me then I won't complain. As a matter of fact, I appreciate it.
    Lots of fireMEN (hehehe) do really nice things like hold doors open for me and such - and I know they do this because I'm a female. I think that's so sweet! I don't march around demanding to be treated so nice - they just do it.
    To be 100% honest when we are out there working or training or doing chores I don't feel like it's The Guys and The Girls. No one is cutting each other slack or competing - we are all just throwing ourselves into the job with all that we have. We fill in where others lack and pick up where others leave off. It's very smooth. We joke and talk and sing and basically have a good time while we bust our butts. (Unless we are on a call! Then we are rather serious.) My own blood family doesn't even work with such efficiency and communication!
    I'm rather content with my firefighting life no matter what I'm called.
    Probie Name: HurryUpMichelle!!

  16. #141
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    hctrouble25

    but many of the men are taking offense to the term "female fire fighter".

    Don't feel singled out, I take offense to the term white firefighter, hispanic firefighter, latino firefighter, (what's the difference in hispanic and latino?) indian firefighter, blue haired firefighter, black firefighter, gay firefighter, old firefighter, bisexual firefighter, transexual firefighter, transgendered firefighter, short firefighter, fat firefighter, short and fat firefighter, lazy firefighter, drunk firefighter, sleepy firefighter, dopey firefighter, sneezy firefighter, doc firefighter, rudolf firefighter, blitzin' firefighter (unless that's what he/she is doing) prancer firefighter, and the list goes on. The only one that is OK for me is rookie, recruit, boot or retired firefighter.

    They feel that by using this term that we want to be treated differently or in special manner.

    You want recognition because you happen to be a female (I could care less as long as you perform) and are lucky enough to be a firefighter. If you didn't, you would have never mentioned it, you would have just asked the questions.

    Michelle Latham

    I gotta ask (maybe Althea will find the questions amusing too!)...

    Why is your probie nickname HurryUpMichelle?

    And some genius asked (I can't find the post) why it was OK for Japanese firefighters to be smaller than American women.

    Do you really need to be told why it's OK for Japanese firefighters to be smaller?

    And did you see any Japanese women firefighters?

    Just so you all know, I'm fightin' the urge to post one of my long diatribes on this topic...

    [ 06-30-2001: Message edited by: mongofire_99 ]
    It's only my opinion. I do not speak for any group or organization I belong to or associate with or people I know - especially my employer. If you like it, we can share it, you don't have to give me credit. If you don't, we are allowed to disagree too (but be ready to be challenged, you may be on to something I'm not). That's what makes America great!

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    I STILL think that any woman who uses the term 'femalefirefighter' to describe herself knows very little about, and cares very little about, her foresisters from the 60s and 70s, most of whom had to file very costly and time comsuming lawsuits just to get on a fire department - and then had to go through living hell to earn a little respect.

    They didn't want to be called 'femalefirefighters' - they wanted to be called 'firefighter' and it was only through their no-quit and do-or-die efforts proving themselves time and time again that the term fireman eventually gave way to the all inclusive term firefighter.

    Ignore your history, your roots and use it if you like - but using 'femalefirefighter' instead of 'firefighter' very clearly displays an abysmal lack of respect towards your foresisters .... who, by the way, you owe, OWE, O-W-E for what you now take for granted. Now .... when is THAT going to sink into YOUR heads?

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    I really can't believe this dusty, musty, and rusty old topic is still going strong. Unplug those lava lamps, take off your peace beads, tied died tees, Brady bunch bell bottoms and PLEASE say "Hello" to 2001.

    Now for a little free psychology 101:

    The femalefirefighters' contumacy towards their use of that archaic and improper demonstrative pronoun is an exhibit of an inferior perception of their self-confidence and self-reliance and displays a propensity for seeking delusive validation.

    Sorry, but our time is up.

    See you at your next appointment.

  19. #144
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    Unless you are; a) from a family with several generations in the fire service, or b) with a fire department that has a written and photographic history, or c) with a fire department that has 'older' active members that can pass along the oral history of the department through stories and anecdotes you can not know all about the traditions, histories, or possibly know anything about what transpired before you became a member.

    That's exactly what's happening here with the use of the term 'femalefirefighter' and the staunch opposition to using it.

    Anyone who lived through, witnessed, knows, read about, or heard about the struggles that the first females had will also know how important earning the term 'firefighter' was to them, and how very offensive 'femalefirefighter' 'ladfyfirefighter' 'ladylieutenant' 'ladycaptain' and so on were. That's just history; no ifs, ands, or buts, and no one can rewrite it.

    History and tradition are important to firefighters, and we must never forget, and we must always honor those that came before us - in word and in deed.

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    i was not gonna even begin to comment on this topic, but after reading and reading i decided to say a couple things.. first of all,"hc" it seems like your the one who is never gonna get it, you think that just because your a female firefighter you should be treated special, that was stated at the beginning of this topic and pretty much the whole way through it all you do is say, i do this and i do that and im changing this and that, pat yourself on the back then get off your high horse... so many do so much for the fire service, male and female and you dont see them all on here praising themselves..if you are in it to be praised cause you are a female in a mostly male profession your in it for the wrong reasons.. and now for all the men who think women dont belong in the service... as far as women not being able to pull there own and that, well guys i have seen my fare share of men who are the same way.. i've seen firemen who may weigh 100 pounds wet if their lucky, and your sayin just because there male they can do the job...afraid not...maybe someday when the only person around to drag your collapsed asses out of a burning building is a woman you'll chage your mind..if not then i'm sure the hell glad men like you dont belong to my department cause there sure not needed...

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    [ 07-02-2001: Message edited by: hctrouble25 ]

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    It's so hard to be blunt without sounding rude - so read this post with that in mind. I'm not saying any of this with anger.

    I'm sure there were many female firefighters in the past who were not offended by the term "Female firefighter." while some were offended because that title mean that they were inferior to men. If the title "Female Firefigher" denoted that I was somehow inferior then I would be offended when it was used. However, I've never known Female firefighter, lady firefighter, or firegirl to mean "You are not as good as a male firefighter." I am a woman and I am a firefighter and if both of those titles are said in the same breath, I don't care. I have more things to worry about like... firefighting! Therefore, no matter how some of my firefighter fore-sisters felt, I am not offended by any of those titles and I am not ignoring my history or undermining the hard work of those female firefighters who paved the road I now walk on with relative ease and equality. I've paved a few roads myself as a female helicopter mechanic and female Gulf War veteran. I'm also paving new roads as a female firefighter that future generations of ladies will walk along. If they are not offended by titles that I'm now offended by in this present time, who cares! As long as they can follow their dreams without being harassed, attacked, sexually assaulted/offended/harassed, or held back from promotions they deserve, I don't care what doesn't offend them.
    That goes for future male firefighters as well. May they always be as free as men are now.
    As for Japanese firefighters ... uh...I have no clue about any of that stuff...
    My Probie nickname "HurryUpMichelle" comes from firefighter I classes - where I'm always falling behind the guys because the are bigger, faster, and stronger then me. Everyone is always saying, "Hurry up Michelle!" hahahaha!
    God bless and stay safe !!!
    Probie Name: HurryUpMichelle!!

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    This isn't intended to offend anyone,especially the females out there who are firefighters.It has been my experience that women don't perform the same way that men do on the fire scene.I'm sure that some of them would out do some men on firegrounds,but that's a lsmall percent.
    I ran a chimney fire once a couple of years ago and after a simple little water can job from the roof,we went to get down.It was me and another female,I went first leaving the roof ladder for her to bring dwon when she came.Needless to say she brought it down ok,right over her shoulders with her head sticking between.The worst part was that she started crying right in front of the whole street assignment.It was hillarious!
    So if you can do the job,then more power to you.But you have to realize that from a males perspective we will be doubting you until you prove yourselves.

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    TWR-

    You kind of left me hagin' here. Did she cry because she carried the ladder improperly? I can't tell by your story. If not, why exactly did she cry?

    As a female, I understand your concerns - honestly, and I've worked with women who get a little carried away. By nature, we are more emotional than most men. And I can see how your experience makes you think again about the efficiency of women on the fireground. But for every woman who can't control her emotions because she can't handle the job, there are ten women like myself who focus those emotions into the passions we have for our jobs, and they make us better. I hope your next experience with a female firefighter is such (good luck, bro! )

    But please keep this in mind: for every woman who has cried on the fireground, I've seen a male who is such a frickin SPAZ (both drivers and those going into structures) that I will refuse to go into a structure with him. They're just as likely to make dumb decisions that get me killed as a woman on a hormonal breakdown.

    ANY FIREFIGHTER - MAN OR WOMAN - who cannot control their emotions in a safe and efficent manner does NOT belong on the fireground.
    We're all in this together. FDNY 9-11-01

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    You all seem to be having so much fun with this I dont know if I want to comment of not, but I will anyway. I had a sister that was a firefighter and a dam good one at that. She was better than most men I know. Belive it or not she had a lot more common sense and an ability to think about things before she ran into them. I think a woman can do the job as good as a man if she puts her mind to it. Dont let them ride you ladies to hard just be good at what you do and enjoy it while you do it but do it safe!!!

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