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  1. #161
    District Chief distchief60b's Avatar
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    BGFDChick
    Let me clear up something..... When I said they were not prepared.....I simply meant that they did not know what they were required to do when testing and therfore did not adequately prepare themselves. As with most men, when you are going to do a physical test, you should be prepared or practice it or train for it. The fact that they did not know is a failure of the system. Read all that I have said about women in fire service...not just one paragraph that makes you mad. I respect the women on the job and have had women work for me and with me that could do a better job than most men. I NEVER said the PAT are not hard. I have taken one at age 40 and it was a DAWG! I am on your side and if I offended you....sorry.....I am not a personal trainer...just a firefighter with 28 years on the job and one that is not in the best shape....but I can still hang with the young bucks that come out of school. Email me direct if you want to discuss this more deeply.

    Also....to Truck Man/mamaluke and Buckseng

    You guys are neandrathals.... I never suggested lowering standards. I have always said that if anyone can pass the entrance test, male or female, then let them prove they can do the job which is the next step. Give them a chance...man or woman....If they can not do the job then that is what a probationary period is for. You seem to be the type that will run into burning buildings that are falling down around your ears when you arrive. I look at the big picture and not just the red lights and sirens. I still contend the maverick attitudes you display is what get people killed. Not women in the fire service!

    And being politically correct is part of the laws surround the Federal Sexual Harrassment laws...whether it be in terminology or in language.
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
    ------------------------------
    IACOJ Minister of Southern Comfort
    "Purple Hydrant" Recipient (3 Times)
    BMI Investigator
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    The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.


  2. #162
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    and once again....this is exactly what is wrong with the fire service today.....

    PC = fake people
    fake people = bad people
    bad people = bad fire department
    bad fire department = people killed

    simple math.

  3. #163
    Forum Member BucksEng91's Avatar
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    Captstanm -

    No disrespect intended here, Cap (if you are a captain, and I'm going to trust that you are). I absolutely respect your opinion. I just happen to think that you're tragically wrong.

    Let's look at some of the things that you said:

    "Nozzlehog......your mentality is one that will get people hurt." - Ummm, how does quoting a newspaper op-ed piece contribute to having an attitude that will "get people hurt"? Calm down, it's an opinion piece.

    "A newspaper article will say anything to get readers." - OK, so you think that people turn to the editorials page first, take a look at it, and then buy the paper based on what's written there? I don't think that's the way it happens, Cap. Plus, you're making a huge presumption here that what the op-ed piece talks about is not true. I didn't spot one distortion or lie in the entire thing. Did you? Where is it? What are YOU reading?

    "What if it had said something similar about all the males who fail." - But it didn't, Cap. Woulda, coulda, shoulda. It didn't say something similar because that wouldn't be truthful. The story is not that there are males that fail the PAT (that's a fact of the job - that's not news), but that females have a harder time passing the physical portion of the test (if they even make it that far). The opinion expressed in the piece is entirely appropriate - firefighting is not a job where standards can or should be relaxed. Without relaxing the standards, many females will simply not be able to qualify. And that is simply a fact of life. Lowering the physical standards will get people killed, Cap, not quoting a newspaper op-ed (I'm still trying to figure out where you got that wacky idea).

    "Sure..statistically, a higher percentage of females fail because there are less of them" - Incorrect. Speaking percentage-wise, it doesn't matter if there are less, more, or the exact same number of female candidates as male who take the test. More females will fail, as a percentage of the total number of females, than males as a percentage of the total number of males - again, as a function of their relatively lower upper body strength. The number of people in the total group has little to do with the PERCENTAGE that will pass. You're trying to compare apples to oranges here, and I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

    "while most 'want to do the job' they are not adequately prepared" - OK, fine. But how does this refute what has been said previously, or in the op-ed piece? And how do YOU know that females overall are "not adequately prepared"? Maybe in your little neck of the woods, but making a general statement like that about female firefighter candidates is pretty sexist, if you ask me. You intimate here that males, in comparison to their female counterparts, ARE prepared. Why are the males prepared and the females not? Do the females lack access to the job description? Do they not read as well as the males? Do they not follow directions as well as the males? I'd be careful here, Cap. You're walking on some pretty shaky ground. Saying that the CANDIDATES as a whole are unprepared is a lot different than saying that just the FEMALE CANDIDATES are unprepared - you're inferring that there is something wrong with the female candidates in general.

    "WAKE UP and accept the change!" - What change? I don't really get what you're saying here. I don't think many of us have said that we don't accept females in the fire service. I know I haven't, anyway. So what change are you referring to? Dumbing down the written tests? Lowering the physical requirements? Changing the job descriptions? Coming up with new riding positions on the apparatus for females to reflect their lower upper body strength? You need to explain yourself a lot more clearly, Cap. What specific change is it that you refer to that we're allegedly not accepting?

    "PS>>>the term "fireman" is no longer politically correct. I believe it is FIREFIGHTER!" - OK, if you want your opinions to be dictated by how they make other people feel, you go ahead and do that. To me, that's just a big cop-out. Does someone else's case of hurt feelings determine or change the truth? Or at least what I perceive to be the truth? I don't think so, Cap. I have a little too much self-respect for that. You should too.

    "When I said they were not prepared.....I simply meant that they did not know what they were required to do when testing and therfore did not adequately prepare themselves." - And this is whose fault? Yours as the testing officer? OK, if you want to blame yourself you're free to do so. But I think you're treading on shaky ground here again, Cap. This floor is getting spongy. What you've said carries a subtle undercurrent that women need to be directed to prepare themselves, because lordy, lordy they won't do it left to their own devices. That's condescending and sexist, Cap. The question you don't answer is why the males, by inference, ARE able to adequately prepare themselves.

    "The fact that they did not know is a failure of the system." - Oh, I see. So now it's someone else's fault. Wait! It's not even someone ELSE...it's "THE SYSTEM". Oh, please. More liberal pap. The fact that they did not prepare adequately is a failure of personal responsibility on the candidate's part, male or female, if they didn't take the time to READ the job description and explanation of the selection process, and do the things necessary to prepare for the test. If the problem is that the test preparation is not easily accessible, then this is a problem for ALL candidates, not just the females - unless, of course, you're again subscribing to the sexist, condescending notion that females can't possibly be expected to read and prepare themselves for the test all by their lonesome. If they have access to the info, and still don't prepare, I guess they really didn't want the job that much, Cap.

    "You guys are neandrathals" - well, actually the word is Neanderthal; and if this is supposed to be an insult, you gotta do better than that. I kinda like being called a "Neanderthal". I might put a sticker with that word on my New Yorker.

    "I have always said that if anyone can pass the entrance test, male or female, then let them prove they can do the job which is the next step." - No, what you said was that females are unable to pass the test because they don't prepare adequately (but it's not their fault, after all they're just girls fighting a biased "system"), and that quoting op-ed articles will get firefighters killed.

    "You seem to be the type that will run into burning buildings that are falling down around your ears when you arrive." - Wow, you sure know a lot about us without ever having met us. What this particular opinion of yours has to do with the topic at hand, I can't fathom. I can play this game, too. You seem to be the type that goes with the flow, doesn't make any waves for fear of upsetting people, and blames failures of personal responsibility on the anonymous "system". Does that describe you? Probably not, since I don't know you. Hell, for all I know, I would probably like and respect you immensely if I ever met you. So why would you post crap like that about brother firefighters?

    "And being politically correct is part of the laws surround the Federal Sexual Harrassment laws...whether it be in terminology or in language." - Not entirely sure what you mean here, Cap, but - no, being politically correct means surrendering your free will and thoughts to the influence of the media and political elites. When you begin to filter everything you say and think by what is "politically correct" you've surrendered your ability to think for yourself. As I said before, Cap, I have just a little too much self-respect to do that. You should try it - you might like it!

    [ 07-18-2001: Message edited by: BucksEng91 ]
    "Let's roll." - Todd Beamer, one of a group of American soldiers who handed the terrorists their first defeat.

    Joe Black

    The opinions expressed are mine and mine alone (but you can borrow them )and may not reflect those of any organization with which I am associated (but then again, they just may not be thinking clearly).

  4. #164
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    Captstanm1- for a captain with 28 years experience on the job, you seem very naieve. That was my first impression of your responses.

  5. #165
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    Capt...

    I didn't just read one paragraph/sentence of your post and got angry. I read all of it. More than once. I quoted a particular part of your post because I found it incorrect and completely unfounded. Thus was the basis of my reply. And I find no need to discuss this issue privately. This is a public forum. And all that anyone asks that all viewpoints be supported by fact.

    I am happy that you have female comrades that you can admire. I do too. However you have not supported a point that women are statistically not hired due to sheer lack of application numbers.

    I highly argue that they don't know what the PAT is all about. Most fire department administrations will gladly tell you what's in store for you - some even show video, and offer practice sessions. It's up to the applicant - and no one else - to train appropriately.

    If someone can't do a little reasearch to find what's in store, I will definitely question their thought process and innovativeness on the fireground. Although this business requires braun, one needs brains and a forward-thinking mindset. Any chick or bloke who can't carry weight, think ahead and chew gum at the same time need not apply.

    As for the opinion-editorial that was previously posted - I think it makes a lot of good points. As a firefighter/female firefighter/firewoman (WHATEVER), I want to know every person's concern - particularly men - regarding how they feel about my ability to do my job, because I want to foster positive relationships on the fireground. I want them to trust me, and I work hard to do so. However, this does not mean I look to every fireman's approval of me being in this business.

    Perhaps the author of that article thinks I need to go back into the kitchen. But like I said - I don't care if FDNY thinks I belong, or can do the job. One day I'd like to take their test for the experience (and perhaps get a snowball's chance in hell of making it). But until (and if ever) that day comes, I'm perfectly content with the fire family I have, because we just kick butt.
    We're all in this together. FDNY 9-11-01

  6. #166
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    Well, I recently spoke with someone, who happens to be a former military intelligence officer and Gulf war vet, and happens to be male, and has some firefighting background, and he pointed out that while some women can't do the job, some women can. In his expirience in the military, he saw plenty of guys that couldn't do it, and plenty of women who could. He also made note that due to legal issues regarding female patients, it's common sense that you have women around to avoid lawsuits. Now, he isn't currently involved in the fire service, and he can look at things objectively and, well, there you have it.

    Althea

  7. #167
    Forum Member BucksEng91's Avatar
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    Althea -

    You're going to get a lot of people on here who will tell you, "I know someone who this" and "My friend knows someone who that". That's anecdotal. It's helpful but not really that illustrative of the central issue - that many women don't pass the PAT (in fact, statistically more than men), and that this is PERFECTLY UNDERSTANDABLE and OK. The women that do pass, make it through the academy, and prove themselves on the fireground, just like the men that do so, will get and keep their job. They are firefighters as much as the old jake who's been around for 20 years.

    It really is just that simple. And that's the way it should be.
    "Let's roll." - Todd Beamer, one of a group of American soldiers who handed the terrorists their first defeat.

    Joe Black

    The opinions expressed are mine and mine alone (but you can borrow them )and may not reflect those of any organization with which I am associated (but then again, they just may not be thinking clearly).

  8. #168
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    OK, I really was going to leave this alone and alot of what I would say has already been said, but I have a few comments to make and questions to ask...

    Michelle Latham

    However, I've never known Female firefighter, lady firefighter, or firegirl to mean "You are not as good as a male firefighter."

    Then you admit you are not as good by stating you are "always falling behind" with:

    My Probie nickname "HurryUpMichelle" comes from firefighter I classes - where I'm always falling behind the guys because the are bigger, faster, and stronger then me.

    Everyone is always saying, "Hurry up Michelle!" hahahaha!

    Instead of laughing it off, you should think about it real hard.

    God bless and stay safe !!!

    You too.

    bgfdchick

    ANY FIREFIGHTER - MAN OR WOMAN - who cannot control their emotions in a safe and efficent manner does NOT belong on the fireground.

    Those with emotional weakness should be removed from service along with those incapable of the tasks due to physical weakness.

    mediator

    I think a woman can do the job as good as a man if she puts her mind to it.

    How does thinking about dragging your butt out of a building equate to actually dragging your butt out?

    captstanm1

    She is competing in the relay portion of the Firefighter Combat Challenge in New Orleans with 4 other firefighters who are darned good and very dedicated.

    How well did they do when compared to the guys?

    ...some day the wall will come down...

    The wall came down a long time ago. Where were you when it happened?

    while most "want to do the job" they are not adequately prepared.

    Are they not adequately prepared or are they not adequately capable?

    PS>>>the term "fireman" is no longer politically correct. I believe it is FIREFIGHTER!

    I said previously, when I got on, the job posting said firefighter. Either way, screw PC cap, be your own man.

    mamaluke

    Nozzlehog- Kick *** post and article. It makes such simple, logical sense. How can anyone not understand it???

    You answered your own question, it makes such simple and logical sense - two of the things we are most afraid of.

    give me one good reason why anyone should give a flying f*ck about what's a politically correct term, and what is not.

    OK, I know you asked the Cap, but...

    Because it hurts their little feelings.

    BucksEng91

    When we start lowering standards in order to admit more of a certain class of people, we're on the road to more death and injury.

    You know Bucks, you got me to thinking...

    All this progress we've made in FF safety - ppe, acountability and so on - yet we still kill roughly the same number of FFs every year. Is a possible partial cause because we've dumbed down the testing and softened the physical agility?

    bgfdchick

    Or is your test not that hard?

    You nailed it!

    But I've seen plenty who kick ***** and take names.

    Never seen one of these, they just passed the test.

    ...one bad experience with a female firefighter can turn into a stereotype.

    I wouldn't say one anything creates the stereotype.

    ...and love the guys and gals I work with.

    Uh, that's a different topic...

    captstanm1

    And being politically correct is part of the laws surround the Federal Sexual Harrassment laws...

    Well, that settles everything, PC is a good thing, the feds say so...

    hot DAMN

    PC = fake people
    fake people = bad people
    bad people = bad fire department
    bad fire department = people killed

    simple math.


    Yeah, but remember we don't do simple math anymore. As long as we get the answer we think is right we're in good shape.

    70 points for showing your work

    Althea Forhan

    I recently spoke with someone, who happens to be a former military intelligence officer and Gulf war vet, and happens to be male, and has some firefighting background,

    Should we all start listing the backgrounds of people that agree with our positions?

    If he said women can't cut it, would you have the guts to post it?

    He also made note that due to legal issues regarding female patients, it's common sense that you have women around to avoid lawsuits.

    He lied. I've worked for years with and without female partners, treating female patients. I have yet to be sued or have a charge of any sexual nature filed or implied against me. Don't want to get sued, act ethical.

    Now, he isn't currently involved in the fire service, and he can look at things objectively and, well, there you have it.

    Wow! You settled the whole issue with just one question to some genius with an MI background and he said it was OK. Why didn't we just ask them to start with?

    BucksEng91

    Man you're fast!
    It's only my opinion. I do not speak for any group or organization I belong to or associate with or people I know - especially my employer. If you like it, we can share it, you don't have to give me credit. If you don't, we are allowed to disagree too (but be ready to be challenged, you may be on to something I'm not). That's what makes America great!

  9. #169
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    Ya see Buck, I'm second gen and My Aunt Faye is a fire marshall and has been involved in the emergency services for thirty years or so...you get the picture. Maybe it's genetic.

    Althea

  10. #170
    District Chief distchief60b's Avatar
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    I guess you were shooting at me.....OH well!....

    Regarding my comments....

    I know the "wall came down"....but to me it was obvious from some of the posts that those folks did not. As far as politically correct, it was more or less a statement made in jest. But, the term "fireman" does annoy some or perhaps "offend" and therefore this leads to the provisions of the federal sexual harrassment laws which are all based on a "perceived offensive statement or act" even by someone it is not directed to them. And....regardless of whether we like it or not...it is the law...and....some people have lost jobs over it. I had a friend who got in big trouble because he said, "you gals" when teaching a class.

    Bottom line is...Whether you agree or disagree with my statement, I am in support of female firefighters in the service and contend that they can do the job as well as men and as long as they can, there is a place for them in the service. Just like men....if they can not do they job....they should not be here....male or female!!!!!
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
    ------------------------------
    IACOJ Minister of Southern Comfort
    "Purple Hydrant" Recipient (3 Times)
    BMI Investigator
    ------------------------------
    The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.

  11. #171
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    If someone gets offended by me using the term "fireman", they can eat my sh*t.

    As far as people losing their jobs over using terms such as "fireman" and "you gals"...those departments have serious issues and I could never imagine anyone ever wanting to work at a place like that. How ridiculous can you get?

  12. #172
    Forum Member BucksEng91's Avatar
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    Cap, Cap, Cap -

    What, may I ask, the hell are you talking about?

    You said this - "But, the term 'fireman' does annoy some or perhaps 'offend' and therefore this leads to the provisions of the federal sexual harrassment laws which are all based on a 'perceived offensive statement or act' even by someone it is not directed to them."

    WHAT??? Do you even have the slightest idea what you're talking about? Sexual harrassment laws (which I think are dubious to begin with) are not based on a 'perceived offensive statement or act'. They are based on the creation of a hostile work environment through continued, purposeful, and unwanted sexual advances or display of offensively sexual materials. Sexual harrassment law does not cover some broad's hurt feelings because I call myself a fireman.

    What planet are you from? And if you really do believe that this is the case, why as an American would that be acceptable to you?

    "And....regardless of whether we like it or not...it is the law" - No it ain't, bro. Try as they might, the communi...I mean, Democrats have not yet been able to eradicate the First Amendment (not for lack of trying, mind you).

    "...some people have lost jobs over it." - If I were fired because I referred to myself as a 'fireman' and some feminazi decided that she didn't like it, I would OWN that freakin' department with the lawsuit I would bring.

    "I had a friend who got in big trouble because he said, 'you gals' when teaching a class." - And this is OK with you? This is acceptable behavior? Do you yourself believe that it was appropriate for this guy to get in trouble? If not, then why cite it? If so, then I feel bad for you.

    "Bottom line is...Whether you agree or disagree with my statement, I am in support of female firefighters in the service and contend that they can do the job as well as men and as long as they can, there is a place for them in the service." - Wait a second, you contend that 'they can do the job as well as men'; yet, a couple of posts back you talked about how female candidates fail the PAT at a pretty decent clip. Which story do you want to stick with, Cap? I agree that the females who pass the test, the academy, and work on the fireground 'do the job as well as men'. Do all females? Obviously not.

    "Just like men....if they can not do they job....they should not be here....male or female!!!!!" - That's the most coherent thing you've said yet, Cap.
    "Let's roll." - Todd Beamer, one of a group of American soldiers who handed the terrorists their first defeat.

    Joe Black

    The opinions expressed are mine and mine alone (but you can borrow them )and may not reflect those of any organization with which I am associated (but then again, they just may not be thinking clearly).

  13. #173
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    About the third meeting I expressed my opinion on them calling me a firewoman. I am a ff. I felt it needless to single me out, being I was the only woman there. I'm about 5'8" and 146lbs. I know my limitations. Don't like high places.
    Males and females are genetically diffrent. Males have square muscle cells, female have round muscle cells. We have cellulite, you don't.
    I like a good joke,have a few myself. PRICELESS; the look on your face when you just found out I was standing behind you.
    Discrimination; Hey did you hear the one about blah,blah, blah.
    I'm in a great fd. I know some of the old timers would rather not have me there, they are entitled to have there opinion, just as I do as me still being there.
    My feelings about lowering the agility test. This is a dangerous practice. If you can't pass the test, this is probably a good thing. may have saved your life or another ff life. Be a TEAM. Together Everyone Accomplishes More. Don't be a hotshot. Don't
    freelance.
    Things that have made me smile over the last 4 years.
    After battling a 3 hour fire, having a small child come up and give me flowers she had picked just for me.
    FF who shop and ask me what there wife/girlfriends would like better.
    Your makeup is smeared, no that's just dirt.
    On the fire ground,I go where I am needed. I have comforted families, picked up wives from work, and sat with children who cannot fully understand what is going on. Kissed boo-boos and gave hugs all-around.
    Watched 10 burly ff tell knock-knock jokes to
    other ff kids, and see them roll on the ground with laughter.
    Fire is the modern day medusa.
    Fire doesn't descriminate, ect, etc.
    Everyone is entitled to an opinion, this is mine.
    BE good and Play safe kids. rm41
    33057123

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    captstanm1

    but to me it was obvious from some of the posts that those folks did not.

    Go back and read it all over again, everybody knows the wall is down. Some of us just don't think it needs to be.

    the term "fireman" does annoy some or perhaps "offend" and therefore this leads to the provisions of the federal sexual harrassment laws

    OK. My little 5'11" 215# sensitive self is annoyed and offended by the following words and any actions taken to force me to accept and use these terms:
    • female firefighter
    • African-American
    • Hispanic-American
    • Caucasion
    • Native-American
    • evil-conservative
    • really there are too many to list

    Based on federal civil rights laws, what are my options since my civil rights are clearly being violated everytime I hear one of these words or nitwits try to force me to use these words?

    redmedusa41

    Discrimination; Hey did you hear the one about

    Sorry honey, some may consider that harrassment but it's not discrimination.

    discrimination - n.
    1. The act of discriminating.
    2. The ability or power to see or make fine distinctions; discernment.
    3. Treatment or consideration based on class or category rather than individual merit; partiality or prejudice: racial discrimination; discrimination against foreigners.

    discriminating - adj.

    1. Able to recognize or draw fine distinctions; perceptive.
    Showing careful judgment or fine taste: a discriminating collector of rare books; a dish for the discriminating palate.
    2. Separating into distinct parts or components; analytical.
    3. Serving to distinguish; distinctive: a discriminating characteristic.
    4. Marked by or showing bias; discriminatory.

    (Man, my cut and paste skills are sharp tonight!)
    It's only my opinion. I do not speak for any group or organization I belong to or associate with or people I know - especially my employer. If you like it, we can share it, you don't have to give me credit. If you don't, we are allowed to disagree too (but be ready to be challenged, you may be on to something I'm not). That's what makes America great!

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    " .... government is best which governs least .... " from Civil Disobedience by Henry David Thoreau in February 1848.

  16. #176
    Forum Member BucksEng91's Avatar
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    Amen, eCappy.
    "Let's roll." - Todd Beamer, one of a group of American soldiers who handed the terrorists their first defeat.

    Joe Black

    The opinions expressed are mine and mine alone (but you can borrow them )and may not reflect those of any organization with which I am associated (but then again, they just may not be thinking clearly).

  17. #177
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    Firehouse Forums has a womens section

  18. #178
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    mongofire

    Thanks for the lesson on discrimination/harrassment. I have not had to really deal with this where I am now.
    It seams to me it is more in the larger depts than in small town America.
    I knew there was a case where a female was not hired for the job as a paid driver/operator. She was angry and got an attny. She still didn't get the job.
    I came in right after that, so I was avoided.
    I now know that I have a place there. I have made many friends in my dept. We have a combination dept. if I feel uncomfortable doing something I say so. When we are at a working fire, I back them up with anything they need.
    Big city ff is a whole diffrent ballgame. I am originally from Newburgh NY. 65 miles north of the city. If you have never experienced both small and large dept. Make it a point to stop and talk to them if you can.Many larger places also do EMS, and that field has a lot of females in it. This was done by the local gov. As we all know most of them don't know jack about a fire station or a squad. They come down and say this is how it's going to be done.Sometimes cost effective is not always the best method.
    Not all female ff are problems, and I know that all of the problems voiced in this forum are leggit. I have seen them come and go. The best thing you can do, is keep your nose clean and act prof., expecially around them. If they are going to be a bad seed, it won't take long for them to stur trouble up.
    Your best defense in this is your investigating committies,checking there ref. carefully, your evaluation boards and having a very long probie period.
    If it's a paid dept. Every commander in the dept. should agree that a ff is ready to be cut loose. The key word here is ff.
    This is a job, you get paid to do, and there should be no questions what so ever if you can do it or not.
    Thanks for your time.
    rm41
    Be good and play safe kids.
    33057123

  19. #179
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    Jun 2001
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    The main thing is not to get excited!! I get the feeling the some people are afraid that a woman will show them up. Whats wrong with being dragged out by a female firefighter? Who cares as long as you both get out? It shows that you are only human and that no one is perfect. Whats embarrising about that? Its a shame that pride has to get in the way. If you think your perfect and your the expert then its time to go home before you get yourself or someone else hurt. Thats just my other 2 cents worth, It aint much but there it is anyway. (give em hell ladies!!)

  20. #180
    Forum Member BucksEng91's Avatar
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    Apr 2000
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    Warminster, PA
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    Hi mediator -

    I don't think anyone's "afraid" that a woman will show them up. I do think that there are real and appropriate concerns that dumbing down tests and easing the physical requirements so we can be more 'politically correct' (a misnomer if I ever heard one!) will get firefighters hurt or killed.

    I like to compare it to lowering the standards we use to determine who is qualified to get into medical school, who passes medical school, who passes the tests necessary for licensing, and who remains qualified as a physician. How about if we let any ol' person, D or F student, enter med school, allow them to pass as long as they "try hard enough", and license them so that we get more "diversity" in the community of physicians? Does that really make sense to you? I hope not. And if not, why would you want to do that to the fire service?

    When people finally are honest with themselves, and stop claiming victim status for every perceived slight, instead of frankly and honestly looking at themselves, some of this silly sh*t will abate. The question is, will that day ever come? I don't know.

    If all you can get out of this discussion is that somebody's scared to be pulled out of a building by a female firefighter, then I don't think you've been reading very closely.

    If my butt is trapped or otherwise unable to make it out of a dangerous and deteriorating situation, and I'm blessed enough that another firefighter can make it in and pull me out, do you really think I'm wondering what genitalia are attached to that firefighter? Do you think I'm going to thrown myself back into the sh*t if I find out that the firefighter that pulled me out has breasts? Get real.

    The central issue here is two-fold. First, that there are people on this forum who seem to believe that reducing the physical abilities test is necessary for us to be "politically correct" and not offend the tender sensibilities of females who simply do not have the upper body strength to do the job; and second, that there are females who do make it in the fire service who then want special recognition, as if simply being of a certain gender entitles them to disparate treatment - you can see this in their insistence in being recognized as "female firefighters", as if there's any utility or sense in that distinction. If you make it throught the PAT, the academy, and can perform on the fireground, then you're a firefighter. Period.
    "Let's roll." - Todd Beamer, one of a group of American soldiers who handed the terrorists their first defeat.

    Joe Black

    The opinions expressed are mine and mine alone (but you can borrow them )and may not reflect those of any organization with which I am associated (but then again, they just may not be thinking clearly).

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