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  1. #26
    Firelover
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Exclamation

    Well, to me it depends on the call. I'm not usually a hands on kind of guy. I'm a volunteer in a combo department and the older guys seem to think that the younger guys can't always handle the job, so I leave mine on the back. But as soon as I hear on the pager that it's a working fire, or it's rainning, windy, snowy or anything adverse, I'll put it under my chin. Now my helmet does have a rachet system that holds the helmet tight on my head. So loosing it still isn't an option. Just my thoughts on the subject!!

    ------------------
    Joel

    If you sent us to HELL, WE'D PUT IT OUT!!

    **And of course these are only my opinion and only mine. Don't take it out on anyone else but me.**

  2. #27
    mamaluke
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Chin straps, along with ratchets are useless garbadge. So, where are you safety police guys. Come arrest me. Tell me the error of my ways.

    So, what most of you are saying is that if given the opportunity, you would never consider working for the fine fire dept of Boston. They don't wear chin straps, the dept doesn't even issue hoods, let alone anyone wear them, and they wear 3/4 boots. No bunker pants. But guess what- they're not gutting hurt. They are quite safe. Maybe its because they know how to fight fire the right way and they are one of the last dept's left that hasn't lost touch with what they are there for.

  3. #28
    *LHS
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    //Chin straps, along with ratchets are useless garbadge.

    Obviously, you know more about this subject than the makes of the helmets. Think about it, if the helmet does not stay on your head, it does not provide protection.

    // So, where are you safety police guys.

    First you are the safety police, 2nd your company officers, third your uper officers. It would appears a bunch of you think federal and state law is a joke.

    // Come arrest me. Tell me the error of my ways.

    No will probably read about you one day. Post your real name and FD so when we read your name one day we can say, "I told the stupid jerk this would happen, but he wouldn't listen!"

    Let's just hope your ingnorace doesn't take someone else with you!

    // They don't wear chin straps,

    They can't read bridge overpass height signs either. The guy down south didn't like seat belts, he's dead, the company officer who decided to get out of a building with the only portabe radio his crew had cost two people their lives, the guy who jumped on a pumper in motion got dead too. The over weight fat guy dies backing his rig in. SO go ahead and keep thinking this stuff doesn't matter. We'll be reading about you.

    //they are one of the last dept's left that hasn't lost touch with what they are there for.

    So not protecting your employees is a good thing?

    //They just wear 3/4 boots

    Actually they policy is:

    [i]Effective at 1800 hours, August 3, 2000, the Boston Fire Department implemented the following trial policy relative to the use of Bunker Gear during the summer and fall periods of high humidity and high temperatures. Members may choose from the following fire fighting ensemble options:

    Bunker Coat - Bunker Pant - Bunker Boot
    Bunker Coat - FR Pant - Approved safety work boot
    Bunker Coat - FR Pant - 3/4 Fire Boot
    Bunker Coat - FR Pant - Bunker Boot

    Addendum
    Members who opt to wear FR pants with a Bunker Coat shall keep their Bunker Pants and Bunker Boots on the apparatus for each tour of duty in case of their need at a specific incident.

    This policy position is intended only for the Boston Fire Department and is not a recommendation to other fire service organizations.


    [This message has been edited by *LHS (edited 06-21-2001).]

  4. #29
    ggtruckie
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    For me its simple,when i have my mask on my chin strap is on, most of the time, otherwise i dont wear it. Im not saying its the best thing to do just a BAD habit that i should work on.

  5. #30
    ggtruckie
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    *LHS, take a chill pill. this is just a conversation, you are being way to defensive, none of these guys work alongside you so dont sweat it. you are not going to change anyone here, nor are you thier chief, let it go.

  6. #31
    mamaluke
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Cool

    Thanks LHS- I know what the policy is. If you were going to post it, you should have posted it in its entirety.

    Also- how do you compare not securing a chin strap to jumping off a moving engine? And, are you suggesting that because the cheauffer wasn't wearing his chin strap, he crashed the tower ladder into the overpass?

  7. #32
    bfd1071
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    LOL....LHS i like the tower comment, however, if only you knew the facts. Let me guess, you read and saw the picture in the news paper from Boston? If so you would have seen that the picture of the tower and the bridge are 2 different bridges. I dont think his chin strap would have helped him anyhow.

    As for the chin strap debate, I do not wear it! My helmet has never fallen off, and yes i have been hit in the head with many the ceilings. I also do not wear a hood! I also do not wear bunker pants! Infact during the day I only wear work boots....that should create a debate. According to the dept, there has been a decrease in injuries with the new policy.....Hmmm makes you think.

    The funny part about fire house forums....90% of the people have little to no fire experience, but tell those of us who do, what to do , how to do it, and what we should be wearing to do it.

    ------------------
    ** The opionions are mine and mine alone, they are not that of my dept or the local**

    [This message has been edited by bfd1071 (edited 06-21-2001).]

  8. #33
    FireLt1951
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Originally posted by bfd1071:
    LOL....LHS i like the tower comment, however, if only you knew the facts. Let me guess, you read and saw the picture in the news paper from Boston? If so you would have seen that the picture of the tower and the bridge are 2 different bridges. I dont think his chin strap would have helped him anyhow.

    As for the chin strap debate, I do not wear it! My helmet has never fallen off, and yes i have been hit in the head with many the ceilings. I also do not wear a hood! I also do not wear bunker pants! Infact during the day I only wear work boots....that should create a debate. According to the dept, there has been a decrease in injuries with the new policy.....Hmmm makes you think.

    The funny part about fire house forums....90% of the people have little to no fire experience, but tell those of us who do, what to do , how to do it, and what we should be wearing to do it.

    BFD1071,

    Don't let LHS get to you, he's just a blowhard who I doubt has ever crawled down a nasty smoke and heat filled hallway, doing our rescue and extinguishment thing. I know you guys in Boston know what you're doing. Kudos brother, I have never worn my strap or a hood either. Some people think they know so much about a certain department and are usually quite mistaken. Some people may disagree with these things but so be it.



  9. #34
    *LHS
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    //i like the tower comment, however, if only you knew the facts.

    Let me guess, A non-CDL driver, didn't know the height of the apparatus he was driving or the height of what he was going to drive under. Due to the buddy system it couldn't possibly be his fault so no citation was issued, heck the bridge jumped out in front of him. The fact every rig that leaves the Pierce factory has a height label clearly visible to the driver is beside the point. The driver was a highly trained professional who forgot to think. It had to be someone else's fault.

    Now if you got some facts BFD try stating them. I won't hold our breath because you are always slow on facts and full of bull!

  10. #35
    Captain Gonzo
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Cool

    I was on the computer when "mother nature" called, so I opened the drawer to my desk and grabbed an issue of Fire Rescue Magazine that was in my computer room.

    LHS* was the editor there at the time of publication (April 1999).

    There is a photo of LHS*, and in the photo he's wearing turnout gear...white coat, white helmet and shield.

    His chin strap is on the helmet, however it is hanging down about an inch or so under the chin. There is no face shield, goggles or Bourkes on the helmet. The Nomex ear flaps are not down, he's not wearing a hood and the coat is not fastened all the way up, nor is the collar in the upwards position for maximum protection....hmmm.....what's the expression about glass houses and throwing stones?

    ------------------
    Firefighters: Today's heroes protecting everyone's tomorrows!
    Captain Gonzo


    [This message has been edited by Captain Gonzo (edited 06-21-2001).]

  11. #36
    DFD FF
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Watch out Loo. Now that you've posted a response, your good buddy LHS might invent some new problems with our department and detail them in his typically obnoxious, know-it-all, line-by-line style. Should we tell him we're going to be looking for a new commissioner at year's end?

    Regarding the topic, I usually wear my chin strap. But sometimes, in the chaos of donning my mask entering a fire, the chin strap doesn't get hooked up.

  12. #37
    GTFDLt61
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Wink

    John M, I'm with you. I did the exact same thing when I got my leather 10 years ago. I took the longer strap off the ole 660 and had it stitched onto the leather. So much better, and no plastic buckle to melt to your cheek. As for the thread, I do keep mine on the tail of my helmet, but when I'm going into a building, donning my SCBA, I put my chin strap on.

    Russ...

    ------------------


  13. #38
    bfd1071
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    LHS..HAve you ever driven storrow drive?? If you have you would have known that the bridges going from the fleet center to fenway are all labeled 12 feet....The direction the tower was heading. Also you would have known that going from the fenway to the fleet most bridges are posted 10 feet. Now the tower was what?

    As for Facts...If it's not been written you dont know it...Fires dont go out by a person telling it facts! So now you know....it has been written.

    ------------------
    ** The opionions are mine and mine alone, they are not that of my dept or the local**

    [This message has been edited by bfd1071 (edited 06-21-2001).]

  14. #39
    *LHS
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    BFD

    //If you have you would have known that the bridges going from the fleet center to fenway are all labeled 12 feet....The direction the tower was heading. Also you would have known that going from the fenway to the fleet most bridges are posted 10 feet.

    Gee you answered your own question, it is common knowledge according to you!

  15. #40
    bfd1071
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    No Larry, the tower was marked under 12 feet....so come on Mr no it all, tell the world how tall the tower was?

    ------------------
    ** The opionions are mine and mine alone, they are not that of my dept or the local**

  16. #41
    mamaluke
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Wink

    Capt. Gonzo- What a funny coincidence that you grabbed a magazine that had a picture of LHS in it as you were taking a sh*t. Did you use the picture to wipe?

  17. #42
    LHS*PATROL
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    LHS,
    Be nice or i'll have to peepee wack you!

  18. #43
    Fire Line
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Thumbs down

    Great another thread that has degenerated into TRASHING one another.


  19. #44
    mamaluke
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Its not people trashing one another, its a few of us trashing one person- LHS. He blew it, now he gets to listen to us everytime he opens his mouth. Firemen are not the most mature people on the earth- so what do you expect?

  20. #45
    E_man9RFD
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Well, I've been in the fire service for 17 years. I only where my helmet strap (Millwaukee) when I'm working a fire (including training). Say what you will, thats just how I do it.

    By the way, bfd, I have driven Storrow
    Drive several times. (Used to live in Woburn) It's a bear just in a car!

    Been to Fenway many a time. (And then to the Cask and Flagon!)



    ------------------
    AAD
    Eng. Co. 9
    RFD

    "In all of us there are heroes... speak to them and they will come forth."

    "In order for us to achieve all that is demanded of us, we must regard ourselves as greater than we are."

  21. #46
    bfd1071
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    That right eman, there are 2 roads i avoid, If I can, with the apparatus....Storrow drive and the J-way. To narrow and way to many curves. If the tree can talk they would tell you horror stories.

    ------------------
    ** The opionions are mine and mine alone, they are not that of my dept or the local**

  22. #47
    TIman
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Hello All,

    Before we get lost talking about traveling in Boston or LHS, let me try to bring a point home.

    The topic was about wearing chinstraps, which also relates to the bigger picture of PPE (personal protective equipment) and safety.

    A couple of quick facts (not opinions):
    1. As firefighters we must face all types of hazards including heat, impact, etc.
    2. PPE (hoods, bunker gear, etc.) is intended to protect us from the hazards we face.
    3. We can take actions to minimize the hazards we will face, but we CAN NOT ALWAYS identify all hazards or predict when a hazard will impact us.

    My argument (opinion):
    I know I am going to face hazards, and I know that even doing my very best I will never be able avoid those hazards 100 % percent of the time, then my best bet would be to wear the PPE that is available so when I face a (unexpected) hazard it is with the best level of protection possible. Seems to make sense to me.

    I know many are still emotional over the recent loss in FDNY and I do not want to upset anyone, but I hope we can learn many lessons from it, and as such bring something positive out of the loss.

    You will not find a more qualified or experienced group of individuals than the ones who responded to that incident in Queens. But even with the many years of experience no one predicted the event that took 3 lives. Reality is no one could have foreseen what happened and that is the reality that we must face from time to time. As such I believe anyone who thinks their years of experience are always going to make them ready for whatever is coming is sadly mistaken.

    The brothers who faced this incident faced some of the most hazardous conditions possible, heat and fire, toxic smoke, pressure from the blast, and all kinds of falling and flying debris. Unfortunately even with the best PPE available we will not always walk away. However I am sure if you talked to some of the brothers who did walk away they would credit the PPE they were wearing, and the valiant efforts of their fellow brothers, for being able to walk away.

    A brother's loss should not be in vain, let us learn from it, so another brother may not be lost in the same manner.

    Another incident in FDNY also comes to mind, and I am sure many of you have seen the incident illustrated in a Morning Pride Bunker Gear advertisement. Units responded to a working fire in a store. The storefront was protected with a roll down gate, so a crew was assigned to open it up. As they worked to open the gate, a propane cylinder in the store BLEVED, engulfing those working out front in flame and debris. Fortunately, the individual who took the brunt of the explosion was wearing full bunker gear, which had just been recently issued. While he did sustain injuries there is no question they were significantly less than if he had been wearing only a helmet, coat, and boots. Once again this was an unpredictable event that could have just as easily happened to anyone of us. Think about the PPE you choose to wear, and how you would have done in that situation, when you unexpectedly find yourself being struck with a blast wave, flying debris, and are engulfed in a fireball. If you think you would have walked away unscathed wearing only a helmet, coat, and boots you are very out of touch with reality or have watched "Backdraft" way to many times.

    Hopefully everyone will realize we can't always see what is coming and as such we need to be prepared as best we can at all times.

    Hopefully we all now agree we need the PPE, but that brings up another issue, what level of PPE is appropriate? In industrial safety there are usually hard rules for which PPE is appropriate for any given situation. Of course in industry they also tend to be working in a much more predictable and controlled environment so it is easier to do. We obviously do not always have that level of predictability, however we can learn a lot from the "Safety Police". Some simple steps that work pretty good:
    1. Identify the hazards, when in doubt assume a hazard exists.
    2. Deal with the hazards 1 of 3 ways: eliminate it, put a procedure in place to negate its affect, or wear appropriate PPE.

    Of course this is not always as simple as it seems. As illustrated earlier we don't always know what we are going to face, so in a lot of cases we have to assume worst case until we can prove otherwise. This means a lot of the time we should start off in full Bunker Gear or a Level A Suit. Of course if we do this we have also created another hazard we need to recognize and address (as many of you have pointed out). No question the weight and heat buildup associated with this PPE is a hazard that must be recognized. This means we have to keep evaluating things, and when we are confident the hazards have been identified and controlled, we adjust the level of protection accordingly.

    Unfortunately it seems that in the Fire Service we have a problem doing this. We force everyone to wear full bunker gear all of the time (because we have a lot of John Waynes out there) and ignore the fact we will be creating causalities from heat exhaustion. On the other hand we recognize the potential for the heat exhaustion and fatigue and reduce the level of protection but we do it at an inappropriate time when the hazard level is to high or unpredictable. We have got to do whatever it takes to get somewhere in the middle and make it work.

    I don't buy any of the "dept research" that is going on because it is anything but complete or scientific. It is interesting that all of the health problems and heat exhaustion problems are because of the bunker gear, anyone bother to figure out if it has anything to do with the fitness level of the firefighters wearing it? If a guy can work 30 minutes without bunker gear and 15 minutes with bunker gear do we throw out the gear? What about keeping the gear and arranging to have crews relieved every 15 minutes? It doesn't take a scientific study to figure out if you fight a fire in full bunker gear you can't go on forever. Anybody want to learn about the real impact of wearing full bunker gear, don't talk to anyone who works in an administrative office, go talk to someone who works in a major burn unit or rehab center, or better yet go talk to a couple of the firefighters in one those facilities.

    Ask your average police officer if they want to wear a bulletproof vest, the response is "no". They do not need to wear it because; they can read a situation and stay out of armed conflict, they have been on the job for 15 years and have never had a gun drawn on them, the vests are hot, heavy, and cause back problems. Ask any police officer who is still alive because they were wearing a bulletproof vest when they were shot if they would ever go to work without wearing one. You know what the answer is!

    Should you wear a chinstrap, hood, bunker pants? YES! Why, because not wearing them can only increase the chance of you being injured or killed. Making them part of an intelligent fire operation can only increase your chance of preventing an injury or coming home at the end of the shift.

    Just because you have been doing it and getting away with it for 15 or 20 years doens't make it right, it just makes you lucky.

    Good Luck, Be Safe,
    Mike "TIman" Richardson


    "The opinions expressed here are strictly mine and not the opinions of my employer"



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