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  1. #21
    hctrouble25
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Not only do these pictures show what scum the reporters and the paper are, but also shows me that they don't check out information. If they were not sure what was going on in the photo they should have asked before printing it. Anything to make a couple of bucks! What a disgrace to all of us. I also don't agree with them taking a close up of the other fire fighters who are rushing one of their own off to a an ambulance. It is apparent that they are very upset. That was most likely a private moment for them and the other fire fighters and the press of course disturbed it. I would never want my picture taken at a scene like this. I always try to avoid the cameras at any scene. Fire prevention, open houses, etc. I am happy to pose. But for pictures like these I get out of the way. The News needs to apologize to all of FDNY, the families, friends, and all fire fighters for this lack of good judgement.

    [This message has been edited by hctrouble25 (edited 06-20-2001).]


  2. #22
    ALSfirefighter
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    GBordas,

    I'm not disagreeing with the fact that this was a tragic event, and that you would find any smiling faces on that scene. The photo of our brothers lined up against that wall, battered, and with the "look" that any of us who have been on scene when you've lost a firefighter knows. However, those pictures of our brothers, with the BVM's over their faces, and someone leaning on their chest, should not have been in there. If not for reality, but for the sake of their families. I wouldn't want an image like that burned into my wife's or my 7 year olds brain if that ever happens to me. They could have gotten plenty of other "real" photo's without exploiting dead professionals to sell papers, and attempt to win awards. When is the last time you saw a cop in a paper in a pose like that?

    FF'sSignfothr, I know what the caption read, but we do not rehab with BVM's, and the pictures were of injured firefighters, the ones that were mortally wounded.

    ============================== ===========
    The above is my opinion only it doesn't reflect that of any dept/agency I work for, deal with, or am a member of.

  3. #23
    GBordas
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    ALS FIREFIGHTER -
    I see your point. I wasn't really in disagreement with you, I was mostly responding to what others had wrote. It seemed that others wanted to sugar coat the fact that we lost three members by not showing "nice pictures". The pictures didn't identify if they were the fallen brothers. Infact, there were fifty members injured at that job as well as cops and ems guys. I am not commending the NY Daily News for having published those photos but what else would you expect from that newspaper. In my earlier post I was commenting that the photographs showed the realism of what happened. I think that was what the newspaper was trying to acheive. Remember the Worcester Firemen that died? The newspapers and magazines featured pictures of the bodies being removed.


    [This message has been edited by GBordas (edited 06-20-2001).]

  4. #24
    comwhite
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    I live in Florida where the D.Earnhardt autopsy photo's are being legally challenged. I also live near Gainesville, Florida where the student murders occurred. Everyone thinks it's appalling that the press would even consider printing these kinds of pictures, and who would want to look at them, YET it seems there were a lot of people lined up at the courthouse to views photo's of the students who were raped, tortured, and decapitated. I would bet the paper carrying Earnhardt photos would boost sales. And how many of you jumped on the link to view the photos of these fallen firefighters?

    I don't mean to be critical, but you can't scream Constitutional rights, and then condemn freedom of the press. Those papers wouldn't publish those photos if people didn't buy them.

  5. #25
    ALSfirefighter
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Bordas, my NY brother, I completely understand, I'm glad we both re-posted. I think the one pic where everyone is against the wall says it all. I didn't like those Worcester pictures either.
    I just think the whole thing for me revolves around the Pics with the BVM's being used. For the general public they probably don't and wouldn't have the impact that we each have.

    Com, I'm a USMC vet, and I never go for censorship, I and noone else said they shouldn't have the RIGHT to print those pictures, they should have had the DECENCY!!
    The fact is also that whether those pictures were in there or not, that paper would still sell, its one of the top grossing daily "tabloids" in the NYC area. I buy it everyday to read up on issues, the mayor, the yankees, and the crossword puzzle. So either way they'd make their money.

    ============================== =============
    The above is my opinion only and doesn't reflect that of any dept/agency I work for, deal with, or am a member of.

  6. #26
    FP&LS Guy
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Well I hope no family member ever happens to pick up a copy of Firehouse, Fire Engineering, Fire Rescue or some other publication and sees a picture of their loved-one when some firefighter decided to send a picture into the magazine so they could have their picture put in a magazine at someone else's expense. So I guess it is ok for us to read about it and see pictures of it since it is "job related". Think a minute though ... how many members of the public actually ever see someone who has been overcome with smoke, or is unconscious due to an injury, or having CPR performed on them. We keep telling people that our job is dangerous, that member of the fire service get killed, that "nasty" things happen to us. But should something like that happen ... TURN AWAY ... DON'T YOU DARE LOOK ON OUR WEAKNESS !!! You should be grabbing these people and making them look and say "These are the people that are throwing their live in the face of danger to make your life a little safer". The public should be brought into the emergency rooms and see the broken, diseased and abused bodies that we deal with on a daily basis. The members of the public should be brought through a home that has been burned, and see what happens to the products of someone's life when fire is not treated with respect.

    I guess if you still feel that firefighters should not be shown in the media when they are injured, remember that the next time you are drooling over a picture of a house burning, a citizen seriously injuried in a car wreck, or an addict being treated on a sidewalk. Remember, that person might feel the same way about their tragedy being exposed to YOU.

  7. #27
    comwhite
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    ALS,
    Respect for anyone should be a priority in printing the news, but it isn't.

    One of the most memorable of all the pics at the Oklahoma bombing was of a firefighter carrying a dying baby. Was that picture alright? That mother has to look at it everytime Oklahoma is mentioned. That photo sent a message to each of us as to the devastation of the bombing. I haven't seen the photo's this thread refers to, however from what I've read they seem to be much like that one.

    As you look at those photos, and think of them as indecent, remember the one of the firefighter carrying the baby, and remember that each of those photos carries a message. You're human doing a superhuman job.

  8. #28
    Captain Gonzo
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Exclamation

    FP&LS Guy...ther's a big difference between the photos in Firehouse, Fire Engineering or any of the trade mgazines vs what is published in the newspapers.

    If the the trade magazines publish a photo as part of a news story or an article, it is to educate us about the dangers that the job brings to us.

    The NY Daily News publishes gory photos on the front page and in the paper for one reason and one reason only...to make $$$$ over someone's tragedy. As they say in the new business "if it bleeds, it leads!" and they don't give a fat rat's rump about the effects on the families of the survivors. A friend of mine from high school died in a horrific bike accident. The local rag published the photo on page one of the Sunday edition before the body was identified...his family found out their son was dead from the photo...he was wearing his softball jersey with the team name and number on it. Where's was the compassion for the survivors? In the bank account of the publishers !

    There is another difference. The NY Daily News is also published for distribution all over the country. The trade magazines are sold by subscription to firefighters and fire buffs, not on the newsstand.

    ------------------
    Firefighters: Today's heroes protecting everyone's tomorrows!
    Captain Gonzo

  9. #29
    FP&LS Guy
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    They print them just to make money huh? What do you think the motivation for the publishers of Firehouse, Fire Engineering and others might be. There a numeroud pictures of fires and EMS incidents in these magazines that have no associated information which would make them a "learning experience".

    I understand the problem that people have with the newspapers making money off tragedy. Well, guess what a many firefighters are doing!! They sit on their *** around the fire station waiting for something to happen. Why aren't they getting out and educating the public. Are any of you that complained about the pictures calling people from your local newspapers and having a reasonable discussion with photograhers/reporters/editors regarding your concerns. Have you met with the police about areas where news personnel should be restricted from entering? Does your department have any kind of relationship with the local newspapers?

    I can understand your frustration, but unless you are working with these people, you are working against them.

  10. #30
    mamaluke
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    If anyone's against disrespecting dead or injured brothers and their families, I am. But I agree with Bordas. When I first saw the photos, they didn't in anyway seem appalling or inappropriate to me. I didn't even think twice about them until I saw this post.

  11. #31
    ALSfirefighter
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    FP,

    First off, I don't sit and read Firehouse, or Fire Engineering and drool at the pictures. I get enough action where I am so I don't need to. Once again I have to tell another brother or sister to go back and read my entire post and not just what you want to read. I clearly said, that I understand that it could have impact on the public, but what about their families. Our brothers families. And as far as the public realizing the nature of our job, FDNY is very well respected by the people they protect, that very well understand the risk they take in their occupation. And if anyone asks, I had no problems with pictures of injured firefighters, I just think that it was a little tacky, and disgraceful to put the ones with the guys being bagged. Secondly, I've never seen any pictures of in a fire/ems service publication that showed firefighters still being worked on. And yes, I do reap the educational benefits of F.H, F.E., and JEMS. And when you read through Engineering and JEMS most of the pictures correlate with the articles written. Its the others that have a entire section dedicated to "jobs" that some need to sit around and actually dream of when something like that will occur in their area. The fact is this comes down to opinion, and no matter what other circumstances anyone asks about, I still do not think that those photos should have been in there. I feel that even though its a very fine line, they crossed it. Its one thing to see them severly injured, being carried etc, but to show them in the state they did, for me was unnecessary. I felt the same way when I saw live TV footage of Israel recently when a bomb went off, and a Israeli medic was trying to intubate a victim.

    Finally, how can a photo help bring about any change to some of our situations with the public or the politicians as far as safety and equipment goes, when the fire service itself can't agree to change things to help ourselves?

    ============================== =============
    The above is my OPINION only and doesn't reflect that of any dept/agency I work for, deal with, or am a member of.

  12. #32
    Captain Gonzo
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Exclamation

    FP&LS..there is no comparison between Firehouse, Fire Engineering and that waste of newsprint called the New York Daily News!I wouldn't use that rag to wrap garbage in (my garbage deserves better than that! )


    In addition to my suppression duties and being second in command on the shift, I am my Department's Public Fire Education and Information Officer. I write feature stories, do reporting and a public safety column for a local weekly paper. I have worked with both the electronic and print media and have a good working relationship with both. I have a degree in Public Communications, so I know what it's like on both sides of the fence.

    I take offense to your comment of firefighters (your brothers and sisters, in case you haven't noticed!) "sitting on their asses waiting for something to happen..why aren't they getting out educating the public?"

    I feel that every time we go out and return a call, stop at the market to pick up items for the day's meals, stop by a park to let the kids see a fire truck and hand out fire safety information or give a firehouse tour to a bunch of school kids and their parents we are "educating the public"! A little wave, a friendly smile, a brief conversation....all of these work to make us look good in the eyes of John and Jane Q. Public (you know..the people whose tax dollars pay our salaries...) and gives us a chance to educate and communicate!

    We also take part in other activities, such as giving out college scholarships, sponsoring teams in the City's youth sports programs, raising funds for MDA through our annual toll road and golf tournament, the MS bike-a-thon, the American Cancer Socity's Relay for Life, and the Cystic Fibrosis Foundations annual 10K walk. All of these activities help us to project a positive public relations image as firefighters helping their communities. You have to let the media know what you are doing so when the fit does hit the shan, they will you treat you with professional courtesy (and vice versa). Treat them like bovine scatology, you get the same treatment in return!
    ------------------
    Firefighters: Today's heroes protecting everyone's tomorrows!
    Captain Gonzo




    [This message has been edited by Captain Gonzo (edited 06-21-2001).]

  13. #33
    sevenfingers
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    This kind of coverage will always disturb those in our Service. This is because we know what is actually depicted. These are very newsworthy events, and coverage is good for us. But the Media is not always informed of our actions, or the care for our casualties. Each agency should work to train local Media, and firefighters to know what each side needs. Or we will see this again. I too, have been through this.

  14. #34
    FP&LS Guy
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Captain Gonzo ... if you are practicing what you are preaching (and don't assume that I am implying that you are not), then you are obviously not one of the people I refer to when I talk about sitting around on their asses. One of the things about being a brother/sister is learning that when something needs to be said in the family, it gets said. While I have the utmost respect for other members of the fire service, I feel that a large percentage give no effort in regards to public relations or public education. Just because a department had a PIO, a PEO, and the chief is on TV during ever council meeting, it doesn't release all the other members of the department from interacting with the public.

    Firefighters going through recruit training treat public education training as a joke, and can't even match the knowledge we provide to preschoolers. Yet they are willing to scream to the media that the public doesn't understand how hard the job is and that more should have been done to protect the (insert appropriate bleeding heart special interest here) who died in the fire before the fire department arrived. Then once they have vented themselves they go back and stretch out in the recliner to whine about the fact that they didn't get their time on the 6 o'clock news instead of that PIO that is always getting his face time on the television.

    I love the fire service and will not put up with anyone from the "outside" who can't understand the things we have to deal with and criticises us through ignorance. But I will not ignore problems we are having within the "family" of the fire service if we can solve them ourselves.

    OK everyone ..... group hug !!!

  15. #35
    hctrouble25
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    I don't know of any fire departments/rescue squads in the area I am from that don't do ongoing public education. We have open houses, go to the schools for fire prevention, allow tours of our firehouse and rescue squad, do a yearly Santa tour (four nights of handing out candy canes to local kids), check out CO and smoke detectors, work with the police to increase awareness, and I personally talk to people about what I do on both my fire department and rescue squad to help educate them about what we are and why we do what we do. Almost every EMS person I know could sit and talk to a stranger for hours on end about our jobs. We are all proud of what we do out there and we all want for the public to appreciate us. When papers use our pain, sorrow, and loss of a brother or sister fire fighter or EMT to show what we do and who we are, it does not help to educate the public. What it does is help them sell papers. I understand that they have a job to do and that is fine.....but using these types of pictures benefits no one. If a lay person does not understand that they were bagging this person and not providing oxygen then how are they being educated? They don't even know what they are looking at. If the newspaper gave a rat's *** they would have asked someone what the picture was depicting before they printed it. Why didn't they ask? Because they don't care...it helped them sell papers, and that was all that mattered. We had a double fatal about a week ago and the papers were there within two minutes of the fire department and rescue squad arriving. They wanted to take pictures of the body in the car and the one outside on the ground...luckily the Assistant Chief of my fire department overheard what they were planning and got the police in there to keep them out until the bodies were removed. Many of these reporters have no respect for anyone...for them it is all about the money. How would they feel if I took pictures of their mother dead on the ground and then put it on the front page of some newspaper and called it news!? I would probably be sued in a very timely fashion. All we ask is that they respect us the same way we respect them. Allow us our privacy during a loss.

    [This message has been edited by hctrouble25 (edited 06-22-2001).]

  16. #36
    ddvfd
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Thumbs down

    the media anymore doesn't seem to care who they effect or how. There was a commercial on tv here in pennsylvania about a station that covered the USAir crash in pittsburgh and then more about TWA...no these have nothing to do with firefighting...but they showed the pictures of the wreckage and people and there families upset of course...and they only do it to try to get viewers, they could care less what the public thinks about it when in reality its disturbing or upsetting to alot of people.
    When this news channel did this, i wrote to them and told them about it, nicely, and within a week i never saw the commercial again.
    ak

  17. #37
    Grit
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Knowing the rag the daily news is, and reading the topic, i expected to hit the link and see much more graphic stuff. For them, those pics were nothing. Before you jump on me, I'm not saying it was right, but they have been known to do much worse.

    RIP

  18. #38
    51Truck_K
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    ALSFF,

    Right on the F'n money Brother......

    ------------------
    FTM - PTB

  19. #39
    firedude3815
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Unhappy

    I still remember the news footage of my uncle lying in the ambulance burned over 60% of his body with 3rd degree burns. It has now been 7 years. I wasn't able to see him before his death due to college exams and he wanted me to do well in school. I hope that the children of the fallen brothers did not have to see their dads being "worked on." They should remember them as loving fathers and not have to see their dads in such pain. As far as the Daily News goes, I think it is the almighty dollar that wins out for them. Of course this job is dangerous, but there are better ways to show that! Stay safe everyone.

  20. #40
    toneloc177
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Lightbulb

    although i can see fp/ls's point in how we aw at pictures of destruction and personal tradgedy, we can also learn / expand on them, as is what capt. gonzo stated. we all can say the same FUKIN THING - the last thing any of us want is someone to be burnt out of house and home . . . but if it happens, we all want to be ON THE FRONT LINE, or FLOOR ABOVE!!! Y? Cause we are all a bunch of sick ***'s, adrenaline junkies, lookin to be hero's, pushin the edge, against the odd's, 'walk in, when others are running out'

    I joined the volly's not only to ride the big red fire truck, but to go and do sh*t that not everyone in my town would feel comfortable doin! Firemen are all ATLEAST alittle sick! Who would in their right mind run into a burning structure to either try and put the fire out, or try and pull a person from it, with or with out getting paid, or some other type of compensation? What do i get out of being a volly - satisfaction! what about you? what's your motive?

    [This message has been edited by toneloc177 (edited 06-24-2001).]

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