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  1. #1
    Truckie5553
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    Angry Can you believe this Judge's Ruling!!!

    OH MY GOD!!!! That is all I can say! We adapt NFPA 1500 with covers facial grooming. Every SCBA manufacture in the business has topic regarding facial grooming and mask seals, but hey these morons cry religion and some judge decided to let them do as they please. Hell the next thing you know we can stop doing interior attacks because its a tuesday and my religion wont let me do attacks on tuesdays. Oh yeah i cant do RIT anymore ither, because that doesnt conform to my beliefs, so im sure OSHA wont mind.

    I hope this judge doesnt get the case when the families of these men try sueing the fire department because their family member died in a fire due to smoke inhalation or they was seriously burned due to their hippy hair hanging to their back caught fire! I hope im not the only person upalled by this ruling but this has got to be the most rediculous thing i have ever heard of.

    These opinions are my own and do not reflect those of my department or agency that i work for.

    ------------------
    Captain James Collier
    McMahan Fire Rescue
    KCTCS Area 6 Instructor

  2. #2
    Grit
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    Too much religion.

    Same bullsh*t reason we can't legalize prostitution, make it safer, tax it, and lower taxes for the rest of us.

    But that's besides the point.

  3. #3
    SFD-129-3
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    Thumbs down

    Whats next, making the military easier bc some doughnut stuffer can't pass the pt test? They knew the requirements before they put in their paperwork.

    Its issues like this that will cause division among our own ranks, let alone the country as a whole.

  4. #4
    NozzleHog
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    Truckie:
    No, you're not the only one appalled by this.

    This is how great institutions like the fire service are destroyed: gradually, in small increments, like erosion.

    If we have no discipline and cannot maintain basic, sensible standards what do we have?

    I used to be disgusted, now I'm just amused.
    -----------------------------------------
    DTRT-PTB


  5. #5
    ntvilleff
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    I wonder what firefighting experience that judge had or if he even did any research.

    The only option left is that though they may still be "firefighters", they can be banned from participating in any structural firefighting or hazmat operations due to the safety implications. Having them sign a waiver of injury won't do diddly squat if faced with a slick lawyer and another idiotic judge. let 'em hang out with the juniors and probies now.

  6. #6
    ntvilleff
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    Hmmm, If those firefighters got hurt due to a bad seal and the consequences thereof, and sued the fire dept., could the fire dept sue the judge for passing that ruling?

  7. #7
    ffemtmjb
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    Red face

    The thing that is really unfortunate about this deal is that these ff's are putting their fellow ff's and their department's constituents at risk by their actions. What happens if one of them goes down in a fire because of a poor mask seal? All of a sudden, their partners are in jeopardy and all efforts move away from seach & rescue and fighting the fire so that the downed ff can be rescued. I have a real problem with any religion where it is okay to put your co-workers lives at risk so that you can have a beard. Just my opinion.

    [This message has been edited by ffemtmjb (edited 06-26-2001).]

  8. #8
    WillB
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    Wasn't one of them "Rastafarian"?

  9. #9
    FireRebel
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    one thing I have noticed over the years, people mostly with no goals, no sense of self, basically the people who insist on not working, wake up one day and join a religion or a group who also has the same ideals as they do, they post and make up "rules" as they go to justify their worthless selves..some of these " religions" I have came across have no biblical ties or references, they honestly make up and create new ideals that better suit their lives and call it a religion, so they will not be presecuted....I could go on, on..... it has no place in the Fire service....

  10. #10
    xchief
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    Unhappy

    It's a sad sad world were in. for the guys in D.C. I hope your being very carefull watch your backs>>

  11. #11
    Turk II
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    I think many people are looking at this the wrong way... people read the story and right away jump down the three fire fighter's throats because of their religious beliefs. One thing you need to remember is that these beliefs that the firefighters have are their way of life.

    This is hard to understand for most of us who do not share their same beliefs... we don't have to agree with them, but at a minimum we need to understand and respect them. If these three gentlemen do not want to shave their beards then come up with another sollution. Give them administrative details or assign them as drivers. There's plenty of things that a "fire fighter" can do without wearing a mask.

    Should their safety be compromised? Absolutely not. If they can't wear a mask then they shouldn't be even thinking about wearing a mask. But just remember that one day NFPA may come up with some crazy idea that conflicts with a widely practiced Christian or Jewish belief.....

    - Turk II
    - Fire Service Instructor / Religious Studies Undergraduate

  12. #12
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    As I stated in the previous thread the right to practice religeon is one of our greatest freedoms as Americans. BUT

    Safety is paramount! Assign these guys to the pump panel.

  13. #13
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    unless medically instructed or required, no one should be removed from any aspect of the fire service because of their religious beliefs!

    when EMS in NYC stated that everyone needed to be clean shaven below the lip line, it raised hell. people w/ religious or medical complications were forced to shave, for fear of disciplinary reprocutions. That ain't right either.

    DON'T LET ANYONE PUSH YOU AROUND!!!

    (I never had a problem getting a seal when I had a gotti in my younger years)

  14. #14
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    Originally posted by toneloc177:
    unless medically instructed or required, no one should be removed from any aspect of the fire service because of their religious beliefs!

    when EMS in NYC stated that everyone needed to be clean shaven below the lip line, it raised hell. people w/ religious or medical complications were forced to shave, for fear of disciplinary reprocutions. That ain't right either.

    DON'T LET ANYONE PUSH YOU AROUND!!!

    (I never had a problem getting a seal when I had a gotti in my younger years)
    (I never had a problem getting a seal when I had a gotti in my younger years)

    We are not talking about a gotti here..we are talking about full facial beards. A BIG DIFFERENCE. And the medical thing, there isnt on yet, but if those guys see any fire in any quanity, one of them is gonna get burned.
    54041738

  15. #15
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    The issue is simply this - the reg was in place BEFORE these guys joined. This is not something that NFPA or the DCFD just came up with on a whim one day to f*ck with people.

    I get tired of people making that tired old religion argument - "gee, if the NFPA comes up with something that conflicts with Jewish or Christian beliefs..." Well, you know what? I hold the human resources bozos and the spineless officers most responsible...the first group for hiring people who are not in compliance with department regs, and the second group for not enforcing an "on the books" safety regulation.
    "Let's roll." - Todd Beamer, one of a group of American soldiers who handed the terrorists their first defeat.

    Joe Black

    The opinions expressed are mine and mine alone (but you can borrow them )and may not reflect those of any organization with which I am associated (but then again, they just may not be thinking clearly).

  16. #16
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    Playing devil's advocate here, I must disagree what for the most part has been the general agreement. Religion is a very touchy subject. Just because our religions dont say we have to grow our hair out, who are we to condemn another mans religion for its beliefs? Truckie, calling them "morons", how grown up is that? Just because you dont agree with something there is no need for name calling. I dont agree with you in this case, but am i calling you out of your name? More than just being men they are our brother firefighters. I think these firefighters are not stupid, they know the risks by having alot of facial hair. Overall this is a very touchy subject that i am sure we will be talking about in the futer to come. As i said earlier though, these men are our brothers, and they put their butts on the line all of the time. So regardless of religion I think we need to accept them as such, our brother firemen.

  17. #17
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    I hear that the Taliban in Afghanistan is looking for firefighters...full beards allowed by Islamic law!

    Jewish firefighters can wear Nomex yarmulkes!

    Sikh firefighters can wear Nomex turbans!

    My opinion...if a firefighter feels the need to have facial hair or have long hair for religious reasons, and it interferes with the PPE issued by the Department, let them sign a waiver stating that they are aware of the hazards posed by full facial hair and they accept full responsibility for death and injury as a result of their decisions, thereby absolving their employers, brother and sister firefighters and the manufacturers of the PPE of any responsibility for their injury and/or death.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  18. #18
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    Originally posted by Titan4016:
    Playing devil's advocate here, I must disagree what for the most part has been the general agreement. Religion is a very touchy subject. Just because our religions dont say we have to grow our hair out, who are we to condemn another mans religion for its beliefs? Truckie, calling them "morons", how grown up is that? Just because you dont agree with something there is no need for name calling. I dont agree with you in this case, but am i calling you out of your name? More than just being men they are our brother firefighters. I think these firefighters are not stupid, they know the risks by having alot of facial hair. Overall this is a very touchy subject that i am sure we will be talking about in the futer to come. As i said earlier though, these men are our brothers, and they put their butts on the line all of the time. So regardless of religion I think we need to accept them as such, our brother firemen.
    null More than just being men they are our brother firefighters. I think these firefighters are not stupid, they know the risks by having alot of facial hair.

    I really dont think that they do know the risks. If they did then this wouldnt be an issue. Tell me this, if you had to have these guys, who like it or not are a serious safety issue, backup you when the **** hits the fan or someone who can follow the guidelines set like a true brother should, which would you pick.

    they put their butts on the line all of the time.

    Sure they put their butts on the line all of the time, and every crew member who goes in with them is being put on the line as well. These guys are going to get hurt and then lets see whats going to happen. You are gonna hear their families screaming lawsuit cause they was put in harms way. This is just another group trying to see just how far they can push the system and they are using the religion platform to push it.

    Im sorry if you feel like im not acting like an adult because i used the word moron, but think about it, these guys knew the rules when they came in and still fought to change them. What are they gonna change next that doesnt go along with their religion. Religion has a place, but it doesnt belong as a major issue in the work place.
    54041738

  19. #19
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    it is the same story. people want to become a firefighter yet they want every one to obey the rules and regulations but they do not have to. it is like someone moving next door to an airport and complaining about the noise. These firefighters have an oblication to the citizens they protect. I believe that the Lord would overlook some of them not having beards. after all the citizens who they are protecting are God's children too.

    LC

  20. #20
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    i agree with larry cook on this one. these guys chose to be firefighters, no one made them choose this profession, if they want long hair and beards maybe mcdonalds is hiring,

  21. #21
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    Truckie,

    You said these men dont know the risks they are taking by not cutting their hair. I beg to differ with you on this one. Think about it, this matter was a long drawn out drawn out legal battle. Every fire official and their mother was telling them of the inherent risks of having excessive facial hair. So if anyone knows of the risks I think its them. You also said these men should have to file some sort of waiver. If my memory serves me correctly I think that they already did. I may be wrong on this. Also you said if they die in the line of duty their families would sue. I can almost guarantee you that the families would not sue due to the fact that they know what firemen are risking. By suspending the men and issuing the necessary warnings DCFD has covered their butts in the matter. They can easily say "Hey, we did everything we could in the matter but they wore the facial hair anyway. They knew what they were doing, we are sorry but our hands are clean." But hopefully it will never resort to that, because no fireperson wants to see another fireperson die. And about your point of who would i pick to back me up when @#$% hits the fan, honestly I would pick whomever I could trust with my life, be it a man with a beard or a "true brother" as you call them. And lastly have you ever missed work or gone into work late because any religious observance day. I know alot of people who have, including myself. Which just goes to show that religion does affect the workplace.
    On a brighter note Truckie, you have brought up a good topic that has spurred alot of good debating. Good job!! This board needs more posts like this. I get tired of all of the little forum rivalries people have. Its B.S., anyway enough of my rambling. Take it easy.

  22. #22
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    What about the guy that's teamed up with him(the bearded one) when he(the bearded one) goes down because he seared his lungs when he sucked 500 degree air due to a bad seal.
    Now the other guy is not only faced with a dangerous situation alone, now he's gotta drag the (bearded one's) @ss out of there on top of it.

  23. #23
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    The judge made a very bad decision. Hopefully the department will appeal it to a higher court as standard in our justice system. The U.S. constiution says all Americans have the right to practice religion, and every American knows this. But what many Americans don't know is: A religion or any practice granted to the American public CAN be revoked if it has the potential to the well-being of an individual. In our fire service a bad seal on the SCBA facepiece has potential to endanger the well-being of others. These include, fellow firefighters, and the civilians we are sworn to protect. Obviously the judge didn't do ANY research on this topic and may have been partial and had his mind made up before the case even started. I cant believe some of the crap that goes on. Especially this!

    [ 07-09-2001: Message edited by: NFDLT55 ]

  24. #24
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    Whats next, making the military easier bc some doughnut stuffer can't pass the pt

    test?


    YES! But they're saying it's demeaning...

    Check it out!
    http://www.washtimes.com/national/20010709-30466182.htm
    It's only my opinion. I do not speak for any group or organization I belong to or associate with or people I know - especially my employer. If you like it, we can share it, you don't have to give me credit. If you don't, we are allowed to disagree too (but be ready to be challenged, you may be on to something I'm not). That's what makes America great!

  25. #25
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    I do agree that all of the PC crap has gone too far, but I have a question that isn't obvious to me. Do most departments have a "no facial hair policy". In Nebraska everyone has one. I have heard that in other areas a quarter-inch policy is the norm. I am curious and feedback would be great

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