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    Default Sickening...

    Is anyone else as sick to their stomach at this bullsh*t as I am?:
    http://www.firehouse.com/lodd/2001/wash/wa_APjul31.html

    Dead firefighters so we can make sure a few random fish aren't harmed...

    Anyone, and I mean ANYONE, who takes these Sierra Club fascists seriously anymore should have their head examined. These people are an amoral cancer.
    "Let's roll." - Todd Beamer, one of a group of American soldiers who handed the terrorists their first defeat.

    Joe Black

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    I agree 100%.

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    Don't lynch me, but I belong to the Sierra Club. I'm certainly not militant, and I'm building a big block Chebby motor to put in my '49 that I'll be disappointed if it gets more than 10-12 MPG. I would hate to think that these guys died because of that sort of red-tape. But this to me at least represents somewhat of a post hoc ergo propter hoc argument. You're a smart guy no doubt 'cuz I've seen some of your other posts. There is more to the story. How did it leak to a Republican politician from CO (was it CO?)? I think Ockham's razor isn't always the answer. If there is a strategic (i.e. should they have been fighting it v. containment) question, and it sounds like there is, then heads should roll. But the fact is they were there, they were fighting it, and they did die. In all the time that elapsed from 0530 to what, like 1700 hrs? that the bureaucracy was bickering over what to do, how come no one came up with a plan B? These guys need a water drop, we can't give it to 'em, what are we going to do instead?
    ...if you put the handline in the right spot, you won't have to jump out the window...
    -Andy "Nozzles", SQ18, 9-11-01

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    Isn't this country great? 4 lives were lost because of red tape! Shouldn't preservation of life and wildland take precedence over taking a few hundred gallons of water from some pond? It's not like they were dumping crap into the water, they were just taking some in an emergency situation . . . and because of that delay, 4 brothers and sisters are dead, some not even older 20!

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    Mr. Freeze, maybe Bucks is painting it with a broad brush, but I still agree with him.

    I've had some experience with the Sierra Club, and most of the members I encountered were pretty rational. And for years I was a member of the State of MO Conservation Society (of which 88% (at the time) were HUNTERS). Then again, while in the Navy, I swamped a Greenpeace Zodiac 3 times in one day while they kept trying to drive their boat through our live fire zone. We'd drive them off with 2-1/2" fire hoses. They'd motor off (slowly), bail them out, then come back. Now that's STUPID.

    The big picture is, irrespective of eco-groups or eco-terrorists, that the Endangered Species Act has repeatedly caused loss of livelyhood (see stories about the farmers who've been run off their land because the Feds stopped selling them irrigation water promised since 1906! to save a suckerfish) to now, real loss of life.

    I respect, and care for, the "environment". But I don't care what various (intentionally NOT naming names here) groups say, animals lives do not carry the same "value" as those of our fellow human beings.

    Of course, a lot of the problems with "wildland" fires is because we keep trying to put them OUT. It's actually good for the forests (within reason) to burn them off once in a while, as I'm sure you all are aware.

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    I almost started a thread on this very topic, but decided to wait until more information was available. But since you brought it up...

    I personally believe that the perfect world for enviromental tree-huggers (excluding Mr. Freeze...if the Sierra Club finds out about your car they'll probably revoke your membership!!)is one without people. There's nothing wrong with setting aside some areas to be natural preserves. There's nothing wrong with limiting hunting on endangered species.

    BUT, if I buy a home in the country, and a family of buck-toothed three-legged spotted gophers that are endangered move into my garden, I'M the one that can't do anything about it?! Don't think so, buddy. Consider nature. Natural selection, specifically. I'm bigger, stronger, smarter (maybe). Who's moving? It should be the gophers. But thanks to the feds, I probably can't do anything about it.

    If more details come out, and it is determined that these four firefighters died because someone was worried about some fish (I don't care how endangered they were, and don't give me the line about "They may hold the cure to cancer, blah, blah, blah..") then someone's priorities aren't for people, or for the acres upon acres of land and animals that are now dead and/or homeless due to the progression of the fire.

    However, my opinions on tree-huggers aside, if the orginal answer on the helicopter was no, then they should have come up with Plan B, as Mr. Freeze says. I'm interested to see the timeline from the request for the helicopter to the deaths of our fellow firefighters.
    Bryan Beall
    Silver City, Oklahoma USA

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    Here's my take: Avoidable events led up to a point in time from which there was no escape, both literally and figuratively. Same process for ANY "accident". That point in time happened to be the decision NOT to pull water from the river/stream. If it's just wilderness, let it burn. If there is an interface, it might be questionable. If there is a threat to personnel, whether civilian or fire, pull the water.
    ...if you put the handline in the right spot, you won't have to jump out the window...
    -Andy "Nozzles", SQ18, 9-11-01

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    Oh yeah Greenpeace...Those guys are wacked. First of all, "rainbow warriors"? Whatever. Shoulda just shot 'em, swamped the boat, and called it an accident...
    See my experience, albeit limited, with wildland is in Alaska, where millions of acres can burn and not bother anyone, so it's all very hands off.
    ...if you put the handline in the right spot, you won't have to jump out the window...
    -Andy "Nozzles", SQ18, 9-11-01

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    If the water source was that environmentally sensitive, it should've be marked in advance on the maps/plans "Not usuable for tanker supply from _______ to ________ "

    If you really, really need it, apologize later for, um, spilling the coffee over the map making it illegible until a new copy was brought up and when we said Rush It, somehow the mailroom thought Rushmore It, so it came by way of South Dakota.

    My take on it is it's a non-factor in the end that's being battered around as a political football.

    After all, one could easily feign Shock, Horror, look another firefighter died because the building trades continued to oppose residential sprinklers. After all, the sprinklers would've put the fire out had they been there. It's true, but there is probably other causes that had a more direct effect.

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    Isn't it counterproductive to not dump water to save some fish, which allows the forest to burn, which destroys the habitat for the spotted owl? How ironic: The Sierra club can't see the forest for the trees!

    Althea

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    Ahhh, but the fire also cleans up the underbrush for the surviving owls which facilitates the snatching of the fat mice that have been feeding on all the nutrient-rich fresh growth that is fertilized by the ashes of the dead owls. Owls are cannibals. The circle of life...
    ...if you put the handline in the right spot, you won't have to jump out the window...
    -Andy "Nozzles", SQ18, 9-11-01

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    Yeah, I know. Just thought I'd have a little fun in spite of tragedy. Some of the local Hard-core enviromentalists have protests about wildland tactics: Can't cut firebreaks on top of the ridge because that's cutting down trees: can't use retardant because it's a chemical: can't do water drops because that diturbs sediment in the lakes....it goes on. Some times they just go to far.
    Althea Forhan
    FDNY 343:"Forever your power and strength stays with me"

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    I agree with the plan 'B' idea. Isn't 12 hours enough time for command to figure out an alternate water source location, and plan an emergency extraction if all else fails. What went wrong? 12 hours is a long time to study such a predicament, even with other incident issues to deal with.. But then again, all the facts are not in yet are they?

    PS- Our prayers and thoughts are with the families, friends, and firefighters who were close to those who have passed.

    [ 08-01-2001: Message edited by: PEI Pat ]

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    I had a roaring argument with a Ranger over policy as to weather or not I was able to send a bulldozer into an area that was enviromentally sensitive. But that person was willing to send a handcrew in. I said bull****, If you won't let me use a bulldozer to cut a line I ain't letting you put a handcrew in as he was placing them at risk by putting them in front of the fire.
    Jeez guys, IT ain't worth it for a friggin' tree or a three legged black stripe gopher. Trust me, they will survive.

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    Hmmm...either animals drown, or burn. What a toss-up.

    I lost all my admiration to those who protect the environment after I heard of organizations that set fires "in the name of the environment". And I don't think the government has any clue on how to "save" our environment and endangered species, either.

    I feel that all life deserves protection, no matter how small. However, we must look at it in a balance. As sad as it may be to lose a species off the earth, allowing a forest to burn put even more lives (both human and animal) at risk.

    Why are we concerned anyway? With the advancements in cloning, extinction may not even be a problem...(just kidding!)
    We're all in this together. FDNY 9-11-01

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    Here we go again with the eco people wanting to save some species that is endangered. I have noticed that many of these groups cry foul when the people who are really trying to save the land want to do good. It was pointed out about some farmers were deprived irrigation water for their crops because of endangered species. These farmers and ranchers are better stewards of the land than the seirra club will ever be. every year in Texas when hunting season rolls around, all of the eco and wildlife protection groups start yelling about the destuction that hunters do. If you look at where these groups live, ask your self how much wild habitat do they take away from animals when they built their homes. if these groups and managers were so concerned with hurting the endangered species, why didn't they go the fire and work to help the firefighters prevent the damage to the habitat. These people are the ones that urinate and deficate in the rivers and streams when they are out in the wild just so they will not have to pack out any waste.
    sometomes to go forward, you must give up something. this time it was firefighters instead of something endangered.
    thanks for letting me spout off. LC

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    Sorry friends somebody goofed on this one - big time!

    A big thank you goes out to our friends in the environmental movement for their efforts in protecting the life of a fish that wouldn't end up in a drop tank if they scooped a mile of the river.

    And a special thanks goes out to all those politicians that believe somebodies vote was worth this.

    I ask all of you, is your vote worth this?

    Excerpt rom FoxNews.com...

    Testifying before the committee Tuesday, USFS Fire Chief Dale Bosworth said that under standard procedure, firefighters would have used the Chewuch water to fight the fire and addressed any environmental violations or restrictions after the fire was extinguished. He said he was investigating why dispatch waited for approval before sending the helicopters.

    "We get the water where we can get it and ask questions later," Bosworth said.

    Forest Service District Commander John Newcom told Fox News last week that the Chewuch River’s population of salmon, steelhead trout and bull trout are all considered when fighting fires, but insisted helicopter permission was never delayed or denied because of the policy.

    But the USFS reversed that position Tuesday with the release of a timeline of events that depicts the harrowing plight of a band of very young, inexperienced firefighters waiting desperately for helicopter relief that never came.


    Read the whole damn thing and see if you still feel the same way.
    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,31019,00.html

    So now we have USFS Fire Chief admitting that they waited for permission from some bureaucrat.

    The feds could screw up an anvil with a feather, I can't believe some of us think they can solve any of our problems! Bring on government health care!

    Mr. Freeze

    I would hate to think that these guys died because of that sort of red-tape.

    Me too, but that's what it sounds like from the testimony of the HMiC.

    post hoc ergo propter hoc

    Thanks for makin' me go look that one up...

    How did it leak to a Republican politician from CO (was it CO?)?

    Yes, it was CO and who cares how it leaked, was it a secret?

    These guys need a water drop, we can't give it to 'em, what are we going to do instead?

    But they could have given it to them... They were just afraid to because they might get in trouble.

    Roll them heads!!!

    Silver City 4

    I personally believe that the perfect world for enviromental tree-huggers ... is one without people.

    HERE-HERE

    buck-toothed three-legged spotted gophers

    Quick tip for those at home...You can catch these in a snipe sack while you're out cow tippin' if you're careful and quick. You'll find them near the jackalopes...

    But thanks to the feds, I probably can't do anything about it.

    If you wanna try your luck I got some trees that need cuttin' but I can't because of the friggen' golden cheek warbler or whatever the hell it's called - help me out here Larry Cook.

    bgfdchick

    I lost all my admiration to those who protect the environment after I heard of organizations that set fires "in the name of the environment".

    Great point!

    And can you believe those same idiots oppose letting you burn a house for training for your species protection?

    And I don't think the government has any clue on how to "save" our environment and endangered species, either.

    Then take a stand with us to get the government out of it.

    I feel that all life deserves protection, no matter how small.

    Then, let me ask...uh, nevermind...

    Why are we concerned anyway? With the advancements in cloning, extinction may not even be a problem...(just kidding!)

    You might be kidding, but it is an excellent point. As long as we don't clone people.

    And I'm still waiting on my ELO report...

    [ 08-01-2001: Message edited by: mongofire_99 ]
    It's only my opinion. I do not speak for any group or organization I belong to or associate with or people I know - especially my employer. If you like it, we can share it, you don't have to give me credit. If you don't, we are allowed to disagree too (but be ready to be challenged, you may be on to something I'm not). That's what makes America great!

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    There are environmental people who do bitch about hunting and other things like that. These are the stupid ones. Hunting is a valid part of game management. The people you are referring to are griping just to gripe. These people may **** and s--t in rivers. Like I said these are the dumb ones. People who DO care about the wilds don't. And people who do care about the wilds don't care if acres of forest burn down; it's natural, and it's good. Don't lump all environmentalists together, because then I get put in some ignorant company.

    Dalmatian 90 put it best: It's a non-factor. Not having that water should not have been the emergency it became. In 12 hrs., how come water wasn't pulled from somewhere else? Like one of parents of the deceased said: If they had all that time to think about it, how come they didn't helo them out of there?

    Post hoc ergo propter hoc:This event because of a past one. Basically it is a Latin phrase meaning that it is wrong to think that just because something happened before a certain event means that it caused it. Chew on that for a little while.

    Hopefully we will learn more about this whole mess...
    ...if you put the handline in the right spot, you won't have to jump out the window...
    -Andy "Nozzles", SQ18, 9-11-01

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    Here's the whole FoxNews story...

    Endangered Fish Policy May Have Cost Firefighters' Lives

    Firefighters were unable to douse the deadly fire in Okanogan National Forest in Winthrop, Wash., in July because of delays in granting permission for fire-fighting helicopters to use water from nearby streams and rivers protected by the Endangered Species Act, according to sources close to the fire.

    Firefighters Tom L. Craven, 30, Karen L. Fitzpatrick, 18, Devin A Weaver, 21, and Jessica L. Johnson, 19, burned to death while cowering under protective tents near the Chewuch River, home to protected species salmon and trout. Seventeen other firefighters survived the ordeal.

    Forest Service policy in the Northwest requires that special permission be obtained before fire helicopters can dip into certain restricted rivers, lakes and streams. The fear is that the dippers could accidentally scoop up protected species of fish.

    A 17-member team from the Forest Service and other federal agencies is now investigating whether the four firefighters died as a result of the policy.

    Rep. Scott McInnis, R-Colo., chairman of the House Subcommittee on Forests & Forest Health, said the committee is also looking into allegations that environmental policy and bureaucracy were factors in the deaths.

    AP
    July 13, 2001: The Thirty Mile Fire burns in the Okanogan-Wenatchee National Forest.
    Testifying before the committee Tuesday, USFS Fire Chief Dale Bosworth said that under standard procedure, firefighters would have used the Chewuch water to fight the fire and addressed any environmental violations or restrictions after the fire was extinguished. He said he was investigating why dispatch waited for approval before sending the helicopters.

    "We get the water where we can get it and ask questions later," Bosworth said.

    Forest Service District Commander John Newcom told Fox News last week that the Chewuch River’s population of salmon, steelhead trout and bull trout are all considered when fighting fires, but insisted helicopter permission was never delayed or denied because of the policy.

    But the USFS reversed that position Tuesday with the release of a timeline of events that depicts the harrowing plight of a band of very young, inexperienced firefighters waiting desperately for helicopter relief that never came.

    According to the timeline, the first team of firefighters, an elite crew called "Hot Shots," had contained what came to be known as the "30-mile fire" by the very early morning and requested a helicopter water drop at 5:30 a.m. However, they were told one would not be available until 10 a.m.

    At 9 a.m., the Hot Shots were replaced with a young "mop-up" crew expecting helicopter relief to arrive within the hour. When the mop-up crew inquired about the missing helicopter just after noon, the dispatch office told the crew field boss that helicopters could not be used in the area because the Chewuch River contained endangered fish.

    AP
    July 12, 2001: A team investigates the deaths of four firefighters in the Thirty Mile Fire.

    Final permission to use Chewuch water wasn’t granted until 2 p.m.

    Jan Flatten, the environmental officer for the Okanogan and Wenatchee Natural forests, confirmed that environmental concerns caused crucial delays in dispatching the helicopter.

    "At 12:08, the dispatch office ordered the helicopter," Flatten told Fox News. "However, because there are endangered species in the Chewuch River, they wanted to get permission from the district in order to dip into the river."

    However, the dispatch office could not reach anyone at the district with the authority to approve the helicopter drop. Flatten said those authorities - Newcom, Fire Manager Peter Sodoquist and the Methow Valley biologist - were actually meeting during that time to approve an exemption to the policy.

    "That time lag of about two hours was when they were trying to locate someone with the authority to tell them they could go ahead and take water out of the Chewuch River," Flatten said.

    The USFS did not explain why the intra-agency team required to approve an exemption did not convene until 12 p.m., two hours after firefighters had been told the helicopter would be available.

    Two former USFS firefighters familiar with the Thirty Mile Fire said getting permission to dip into the Chewuch caused the delays that led to the death of their colleagues.

    "(The crew) were told that (the Chewuch River) was a protected water source and they needed to go through channels to use this water source," one of the former firefighters told Fox News.

    The first load of helicopter water was dumped on the fire around 3 p.m., but the fire was by then out of control. An hour later, air tankers had to be turned back and the ground crew fled on foot to the river where they deployed their survival tents. The crew was completely surrounded by the flames with no avenue for escape.

    Fox News' William LaJeunnesse and Robin Wallace contributed to this report.
    It's only my opinion. I do not speak for any group or organization I belong to or associate with or people I know - especially my employer. If you like it, we can share it, you don't have to give me credit. If you don't, we are allowed to disagree too (but be ready to be challenged, you may be on to something I'm not). That's what makes America great!

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    I just saw your post mongo...I was just curious about the info to the rep f/CO since the pub I saw only stated "confidential sources" smoke and mirrors crap. Thanks for the link BTW...I'm not familiar with the area, has anyone seen if there is any interface or anything like that? Could this fire have been left to run it's course? How long had the original shot crew been working it? Just thinking...
    ...if you put the handline in the right spot, you won't have to jump out the window...
    -Andy "Nozzles", SQ18, 9-11-01

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    You can give it an inoccuous sounding name like the "Sierra Club", make beautiful commericals with pictures of owls, and fish, and sunsets...but in the end, if you value the life of ANY animal over that of ANY human, you are an anti-social, anti-human aberration.

    Please, all of you enviro-wackos...find me one normal every day person, just ONE, who would prefer dirty air and dirty water. We ALL want clean air and clean water. That's a freakin' no-brainer. We just don't value the lives of barely conscious 100-cell organisms over human beings. It's a question of priorities - and yours are profoundly screwed up.

    The touchy,feely folks at the Sierra Club want to depopulate large swaths of the United States, and concentrate everyone in cities with a density greater than that of Manhattan. Don't believe me? Go to their web site. The real irony in all of this is that we really only use about 10-15% of the land in this country. The rest is wilderness. But that's not good enough for the saints on earth at Sierra and the more radical enviro-wacko organizations.

    They would be most happy with a world devoid of humans. If that's not sociopathic, then I don't know what is.

    And four young firefighters are dead. You go tell their families that there's no connection, that there should have been a plan "B". Cold f*cking comfort, knowing that their sons and daughters died because some bureaucrat somewhere couldn't decide whether it was worth the risk to a couple of fish that could end up on someone's dinner table in a week.

    I'm mad. And I hope you are too. The insanity has to stop.
    "Let's roll." - Todd Beamer, one of a group of American soldiers who handed the terrorists their first defeat.

    Joe Black

    The opinions expressed are mine and mine alone (but you can borrow them )and may not reflect those of any organization with which I am associated (but then again, they just may not be thinking clearly).

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    Silver City 4

    I personally believe that the perfect world for enviromental tree-huggers ... is one without people.


    You have no idea how right you are.

    Read Rainbow Six by Tom Clancy, and find just how terrifingly plausible it is that a small group of eco-nuts could kill every human being on this planet (except themselves of course) as self-appointed saviors of the Earth.


    And for another view of the environmental movement, I'll send those who want it a 14-minute George Carlin MP3 entitled "The Planet is FINE." Not what you'd expect from him.

    "See, I'm not one of these people who's worried about everything. You got people like this around you? Country's full of them now. People walking around all day long, every minute of the day, worried about EVERYTHING! Worried about the air, worried about the water, worried about the soil. Worried about insecticides, pesticides, food additives, carcinogens. Worried about radon gas, worried about asbestos. Worried about saving endangered species. Let me tell you something about engangered species, alright? Saving endangered species is just one more arrogant attempt by humans to
    control nature. It's arrogant meddling. It's what got us in trouble in the first place! Doesn't anybody understand that? Interfering with nature! Over 90 percent, WAY over, 90 percent of all the species that have EVER lived on this planet, ever lived, are gone. Whoosh! They're extinct! We didn't kill them all. They just, disappeared! That's what nature does! They dissapear these days at the rate of a day. And I mean regardless of our behavior. Irrespective of how we act on this planet, 25 species that were here today, will be gone tomorrow. Let them go gracefully! Leave nature alone. Haven't we done enough? We're so self-important. SO self-important. 'Save the bees, save the trees. Save the whales, save those snails.' And the greatest arrogance of all- 'Save the Planet.' What??? Are these f@cking people kidding me? Save the Planet? We don't even know how to take care of ourselves!! The planet is FINE. The people are f@cked!!!"

    It gets better. I'll email it to those who want it (make sure you've got Winamp or something similar).

    [ 08-02-2001: Message edited by: CollegeBuff ]

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    Arrrrrrg. I've edited that post three times and it isn't fixed yet.

    ::Suddenly feels like he's at "a meeting"::

    "Hi, umm, my name's, umm, CollegeBuff and I'm a, umm, perfectionist."

    "HI, COLLEGEBUFF."

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    I am with you on this one Bucks!
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
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    Thanks, Cap!

    Next time I'm in Atlanta on business, I'll make a side trip and buy you that beer.

    Say safe.
    "Let's roll." - Todd Beamer, one of a group of American soldiers who handed the terrorists their first defeat.

    Joe Black

    The opinions expressed are mine and mine alone (but you can borrow them )and may not reflect those of any organization with which I am associated (but then again, they just may not be thinking clearly).

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