FEMA Grants

[pres41]

Am I wrong but do I see a large portion of these grants going to California, there seems to be a growing trend here. I just finished a sampling of both rounds of grants by state and no other state can touch California for the amount and size of grants. And, damn if those Paid Depts are that poor we volunteers are in real trouble. Looks like another goverment farce. O Well so much for us old east coast volunteer departments

[jmkfire]

I agree. It also looks like Florida and Texas are fairing pretty well themselves. I bet you could add all the grants that were awarded to the Midwest areas, such as KS, NE, IA, MO, OK, SD and they wouldn't total what the three states have recieved. Probably wouldn't total CA count. I know that only two depts. in KS have recieved grants from the first two rounds. There wasn't one in the first round. It's becoming a little bit disheartening while we sit and wait to here something for our small Vol. dept. Well, maybe hear something next week
Be safe!

[Dalmatian90]

Gosh, imagine that...
States with Big Populations getting most of the money.

California -- the most populus state at 33.8 million.
Texas #2 at 20.8 million.
Florida #4 at 15.9 million.

KS has 2.7 million
NE has 1.7 million
IA has 2.9 miilion
MO has 5.3 million
OK has 3.4 million
SD has 0.8 million
Combined that's 16.8 million people -- not much bigger than Florida, less than half of California.

I'd expect those big three states to get about 4 times as much as those small states listed, as they have four times the people to protect.

The grants are already being award 43% Career/57% Volunteer or Combination based on the % of the US Population protected by each -- so you're not going to see a huge slant towards rural areas. Career departments have better odds, since while there is a lot fewer departments protecting their 43%, while there is a lot more vollie departments numerically to carve up their 57%.

[pres41]

Yes the bigger states have a higher population, but they also have a higher number of paid depts and if they protect a higher number of people then their tax base should be higher also thus more moneys available, the truley needy volunteer Depts in the small and rural states get screwed again

[Plug-Ugly]

Everything is relative.

More people = more fires = more equipment = more maitenance costs = more money, and on, and on it goes.

If your department is lucky enough to get a grant this time, good for you. If you don't get one, tough sh--. Maybe next time, but don't begrudge the ones who do get it.

[ENG6511]

Dalmation 90, Please don't screw up the "emotion" of the thread with FACTS that spoil the whole argument.

[Dalmatian90]

Yes the bigger states have a higher population, but they also have a higher number of paid depts and if they protect a higher number of people then their tax base should be higher also thus more moneys available, the truley needy volunteer Depts in the small and rural states get screwed again

Huh?

At the risk of once again ruining a perfectly good thread with facts and figures (sorry, it's raining so I can't go out and mow the lawn...)

Per Capita Income
CA $22,439
TX $19,857
FL $21,677

The Small States:
KS $20,869
NE $20,448
IA $20,265
MO $20,717
OK $17,744
SD $19,577

Hmmm, most of those small states have per-capita income within $1,000 +/- of the big states.

If you adjust for cost of living between states like California with high housing and energy costs and more affordable mid and southwestern states, the actual differences become in the hundreds of dollars.

For instance, it costs 21% less to live in Oklahoma City than Sacremento (which is still a reasonable to live in part of CA) while maintaining the same lifestyle. In other words, $22,439 in Sacremento is the same as $17,726 in OK City. Which actually places the "high" state below the "low" state in what you can actually buy with your income.

All taxes, in the end, are income taxes. Whether they're called property taxes, sales taxes, estate taxes or whatever, if you don't earn it or have it, you can't pay it.

I don't see a big difference between the citizens of the big and small states to pay for their own fire protection.

[pres41]

I know for a fact of one application that went in from a small vol dept in the midwest and all they ask for was $3200 to buy a 24' ext ladder, and 14' roof ladder 2 axes some pike poles and all this for their 1944 Buffalo pumper, anybody want to take bets on this one. But hey those little old volunteer depts have as big a tax base as the big paid depts, so I'm told, how many paid depts do you know that are still running a 1944 Buffalo pumper as a first line piece

[Turk II]

Rather than get annoyed that we didn't get our slice of the pie why don't we just be glad that we even had a chance to get some of this pie.

Never in our history has such a large sum of cash been available to the fire service and from how it looks now, another round of grants will be issued next year as well.

Stop complaining and be glad that we're starting to get some support from the government.

- Turk II

[killerb]

With less than 10% of the total awards announced so far, isn't it a little too soon to start analyzing it?

The fewer samples you look at, the higher the "wag" factor.

Asst. Chief Bill

[Jmatteau]

I dunno, but our Dept. got close to $15,000 in the first round and that is great. So far, I think we are one of the two or three depts. in CT to get anything, lucked out I guess. We are hoping for more, would be nice, but hey, this is the first year of the grant, hopefully it continues, and our @$$ hole of a president never had to give us anything. Just remember, it's not over yet.

[hctrouble25]

I too am grateful for the grant money we were given. However, I agree that some larger departments with more money and resources available to them (i.e. Viriginia Beach VA) are getting more money than some of the departments that need it. The money is awarded based on the type of grant application you sent in along with the need you showed for the money. Larger departments can afford to pay someone to write a fancy application for them. For my department it was the first time we had ever applied for something like this and we were very confused and did our best to make our case but were not sure if what we did was good enough or not. Also, I don't thank the feds for this because they give millions of dollars annually to paid police departments all over the country....they act like they are doing us a favor by giving us money for fire protection. (For more info read what Pres. Bush wrote when he took this money away from us by going to the FEMA website)Most police departments are covered in taxes...many volunteer companies are not and we have to do fund raisers constantly to raise money..I don't see the local and State Police doing that. The feds need to take us more seriously. They will when we are all paid and the citizens are bitching about having to pay 5-10% taxes per year to pay us for fire protection. I realized early on that my department probably would not get any of this money, but we did try and that is all we could do. I wish you all the best of luck in getting the money you applied for...and hopefully the feds will start to see a serious need for this money to be handed out annually. Take care.

[SilverCity4]

The money is going to go to:
1) departments who applied (Dal90, got any stats on how many departments from different states applied?)
2) departments that demostrated a need
3) where the money will do the most good for the most people

Higher populated areas are going to be able to demostrate that the money would be put to better use in their area. Not to degrade the small volunteer departments. We applied too, but we protect 500 people. My hopes aren't real high.

And on a note about the funding in general...

I'd rather have more of my taxes back than have the Fire Grant. But it's there, so we'll apply. As for the fact that law enforcement gets (and has had) support from the federal government, I don't think the solution is to INCREASE federal money for fire departments. I think that the federal government should DECREASE federal money for law enforcement.

Local issues are best dealt with on the local level.

[ 08-06-2001: Message edited by: Silver City 4 ]

[Dalmatian90]

Most police departments are covered in taxes...many volunteer companies are not and we have to do fund raisers constantly to raise money..

Then quit whining and get tax support.

Ya, ok, I know some areas even the taxes would be insufficient.

But insufficient in New Jersey? Or Connecticut, or most of Pennsylvania or New York?

Even in less populated areas, insufficient on County-wide or State-wide areas?

They will when we are all paid and the citizens are bitching about having to pay 5-10% taxes per year to pay us for fire protection.

Well, either your community has really good tax revenues or your really under-estimating paid fire protection costs.

Volunteer funding in my area is about 3-5% of the total town mill rate; you'd be looking at 20-30% to fund minimal career paid departments. In my town of 7,000 the minimal staffing for a paid department (not doing EMS transports, and no where close to 1710 levels) would be the same size as our Junior High School teaching staff! In other words, ain't gonna happen.

Of course, we have almost no local police in our area either -- my town has 2 contract state troopers, and the neighboring town of 18,000 runs with 4 contracted state troopers.

[hctrouble25]

Most police departments are covered in taxes...many volunteer companies are not and we have to do fund raisers constantly to raise money..

**Then quit whining and get tax support.**

NOT WHINING, JUST STATING FACTS. WE CANNOT GET TAX SUPPORT JUST BY SAYING WE WANT IT, THE TOWNSHIP WOULD HAVE TO MANDATE THAT. THE ONLY WAY TO GET THEM TO DO THIS WOULD BE TO HAVE ALL THE DEPARTMENTS IN THE TOWNSHIP STOP SHOWING UP FOR CALLS...I DON'T SEE THAT HAPPENING. MY PARENTS LIVE IN THE TOWN I PROTECT AND I SURE AS HELL WOULD NOT STAY HOME IF I HEARD THEIR HOUSE WAS ON FIRE. AND MANY OF OUR MEMBERS LIVE IN TOWN AND WOULDN'T LET THEIR NEIGHBORS HOMES OR THEIR OWN HOMES BURN DOWN EITHER. THE TOWNSHIPS KNOW WE WON'T STOP RESPONDING SO THEY HOLD IT OVER US. THEY GET FIRE PROTECTION WITHOUT HAVING TO PAY OUT MUCH MONEY AND THEY LIKE IT THAT WAY.

Ya, ok, I know some areas even the taxes would be insufficient. But insufficient in New Jersey? Or Connecticut, or most of Pennsylvania or New York?

YES. REMEMBER IN NJ AND PA THERE ARE A LOT OF RURAL AREAS. THE TOWN I WORK IN IS VERY SMALL BUT WE COVER AREAS OF 3 TOWNSHIPS OUT HERE COVERING 27 SQUARE MILES. THE 3 TOWNSHIPS SPLIT THE MONEY BETWEEN THE DEPARTMENTS THAT COVER THEM SO EVERYONE ALWAYS GET JIPPED OUT OF MONEY - THEY SAY THEY BASE IT ON NUMBER OF CALLS RUN BUT THAT IS NOT ALWAYS THE CASE. BELIEVE ME I AM NOT BITCHING, LIKE I SAID I AM HAPPY THE FEDS GAVE US SOME MONEY FINALLY. THE PROBLEM IS THAT I SEE SOME DEPARTMENTS GETTING MONEY THAT DON'T NEED IT AS BADLY AS OTHERS. LIKE I SAID...VIRIGINA BEACH VA?! PLEASE THEY HAVE TONS OF MONEY COMING IN...

VA BEACH Fire Department demographics

$28 Million annual Budget
Combination Department
Twenty Fire Stations
FEMA US&R-Virgina Task Force Two
Urban Technical Search and Rescue team
Hazardous Materials Team
Incident Response Team

WHAT IS THAT OLD SAYING? "MONEY GOES TO MONEY"? HEY, GOOD FOR THEM THAT THEY GOT MONEY, BUT BAD FOR US POOR DEPARTMENTS THAT DIDN'T AND WON'T BE ABLE TO BUY A BADLY NEEDED NEW TRUCK OR SAFETY EQUIPMENT FOR MEMBERS. THAT IS JUST REALITY FOR SOME OF US. SO PLEASE DON'T TELL ME TO STOP WHINING. STAY SAFE OUT THERE.

[larrycook]

Dalmation, i see that you live in Conn. down here in Texas, people do not what to pay more taxes. You have a major war on your hands if taxes go up and property values go up. We have to have several fund raisers durring the year. we have the oldest average in Texas and mabye the US. fixed incomes is the norm here and people fight against any tax raises. a friend of mine sent me some info of a fire department in Missouri and the tax rate for the fire district was 30 cents per 100.00 here in Texas, we can only levy 3 cents per hundred dollars for a fire district. An emergency services district can only levy 10 cents per 100 dollars. yalls tax bills must be hugh. maybe that is why everyone is moving to Texas to escape your taxes. if we had that large rate, even in our rural area we could raise 10 times as much money and have no need of fund raisers.
we could purchase new equipment every year.
Thanks for letting me spout off and please send us rain, we some relief from the heat and grass fires.Larry

[Dalmatian90]

Gee, people only complain about taxes in Texas? Ask the boys from Massachussets about Prop 2 1/2 which limits municipal spending increases to 2.5% per year without a referendum to override.

Rich? Hardly. My town's Mill Rate is 20.8 mills, or $20.80 per thousand of assesed value -- or $2.08 per hundred. 3/4 goes to the Schools along with a lot of state aid, and everything else in town gets by on the other 1/4 with a little bit of state aid.

Fire Protection in total, including the Fire Companies, Fire Marshal, Capital spending, LOSAP, and fees to the privately owned water company come to about 1.5 mill, or 15 cents per hundred. That ain't far from you 10 cents per hundred limit! Most towns in the area run 1-2 mills for fire taxes.

Grand List is $264 million, for a town of 7,000. Largest employer is the State Department of Corrections, and the 4th largest is a mom & pop restaurant, largest taxpayer is a shopping center consisting of a Bowling Alley, a NAPA, a Discount Job Lot department store, and a Salvation Army store. No, we're not poor. But we're hardly swimming in cash -- for that, one goes to Greenwich, CT

When I joined 14 years ago, I was handed a canvas coat, an old-fashion (no bump cap) leather helmet, and a three year wait list for a pager. Running at the time trucks that where 10, 13, 17, and 39 years old.

Nah, our taxpayers don't cry about tax increases. That's probably why our operating budget remained constant from 1988 to 1998, actually went down in 1999, and only in 2000 started to have modest increases.

So, maybe I do know about not having money to spare.

[Dalmatian90]

Yep, FEMA does have new math...
The Firehouse posting of the grants so far add up to $15,000,000+, not the 7,000,000 listed (and I cut and paste direct to Excel, so it's not an error on my side!)
Anyway:

Actual Dollars:
Bottom 5:
CO -0-
DE -0-
HI -0-
ID -0-
NJ $18,131.00

Top 5:
ME $628,967.57
OH $659,132.00
IN $675,470.00
MO $741,497.00
CA $885,620.00
TX $959,937.00

Per Capita:
Low 5:
NJ $0.00
MD $0.01
AZ $0.01
UT $0.02
PA $0.02

Top 5:
SD $0.20
MT $0.27
AK $0.29
WY $0.33
ME $0.49

Remember, there's only $0.32 per person nationwide to go around, so Wyoming and Maine only states that have made money so far.

Number of Grants:
Low 5 (after the zilch club)
MD 1
RI 1
ND 1
VT 1
VA 2

High 5
NY 11
KY 11
IN 13
CA 17
TX 17

Average Grant Size:
Low 5 (excluding Zilch Gulch
NJ $6,043.67
UT $11,670.33
AR $15,332.83
IA $16,941.33
AZ $21,024.33

High 5:
VA $92,000.00
NC $106,255.80
NE $111,150.00
MO $123,582.83
ME $125,793.51

For the full spreadsheet, see http://www.mortlake.org/Miscfire/Fir...s/sheet003.htm

The data was a direct cut and paste from the FEMA spreadsheet posted at http://www.firehouse.com/funding/fir...ecipients.html

Matt

[Dalmatian90]

THAT IS JUST REALITY FOR SOME OF US. SO PLEASE DON'T TELL ME TO STOP WHINING. STAY SAFE OUT THERE.

Ok, I won't tell you to stop whining this time. Please stop shouting.

But I'm sorry, there is no place in New Jersey, nor Connecticut, where the tax-base can not support fire protection. By the way, my company protects 25 square miles with an ambulance area of 70 square miles -- so we're not quite a booming suburb up here in the sticks of northeastern CT. We're not talking about states with huge uninhabited lands, or sprawling low population ranches.

Reality can change. It's called elections. Most rural towns, the Fire Company(s) are the second largest and the best organized group of people (the largest and not so organized is the Parent-Teacher Orgs). Start flexing. Change doesn't happen overnight, often only small changes happen year to year, but over the decades big changes occur.

[mongofire_99]

pres41

Looks like another goverment farce.

Ya' think?

How long did it take you to figure that out?

JMKFIRE

It also looks like Florida and Texas are fairing pretty well themselves.

Nearly 2,300 fire departments in Texas. Are there more anywhere?

pres41

Yes the bigger states have a higher population, but they also have a higher number of paid depts

Not necessarily.

and if they protect a higher number of people then their tax base should be higher also thus more moneys available,

Not necessarily, depends on the what the tax rate is.

the truley needy volunteer Depts in the small and rural states get screwed again

You sound surprised.

Did you really think small departments were going to come out on top? Hell no, there ain't no votes in small towns. A vote buying scheme is wasted on small town America.

Plug-Ugly

If you don't get one, tough sh--.

Yep

Maybe next time, but don't begrudge the ones who do get it.

Maybe a better idea is to dump the whole program, refund the money that is confiscated from the taxpayer to fund it back to the taxpayer so they can choose whether or not they want to support their local fire department.

Dalmatian90

I don't see a big difference between the citizens of the big and small states to pay for their own fire protection.

YES!!!

Each and every community in the US is funding their fire department to the level of protection/service they want. If they want more and are afraid to raise taxes, cut some of the BS government shouldn't be involved in anyway and send that money to the FD. Or, suck it up and raise the taxes LOCALLY.

Turk II

Stop complaining and be glad that we're starting to get some support from the government.

You're not getting government support, the politicians are simply trying to buy your vote with yet another unConstitutional federal program payed for with money confiscated at gun point if necessary from hard working Americans - you and me.

Jmatteau

and our @$$ hole of a president never had to give us anything.

What does the President owe us?

Where in the Constitution, which you may recall sets the powers and duties of the Federal Government, are programs like the Fire Act authorized?

Just remember, it's not over yet.

Nope, they haven't bought enough votes yet...

hctrouble25

The feds need to take us more seriously.

Why?

Fire protection is a local issue.

They will when we are all paid and the citizens are bitching about having to pay 5-10% taxes per year to pay us for fire protection.

There's the solution to problems, call in the feds.

Works everytime doesn't it...

I'll ask again, (for everyone, not just you hctrouble) what has the federal government stuck its nose in and made it better?

NOTHING.

Some of our troops are on food stamps while prisoners get three hots and a cot. American Indians are treated like crap, our inner cities are a mess, medical care under the government sucks, your money is taken from you for your retirement drawing roughly 2% annually, but their own money draws 17% on average because they can opt out of SS. The war on drugs is still being fought and just keeps getting worse, people cared for by the feds are in despair.

Washington DC is controlled by the feds. They have one of the highest crime and poverty rates in the nation.

If they can't take care of their own house, how do you expect them to take care of yours?

Would you rather send your money to your city and have the money put in the FD budget, or send it to the feds, have them confiscate what they want right off the top and then dole out the rest as they see fit?

and hopefully the feds will start to see a serious need for this money to be handed out annually.

Hopefully fire departmenst will WAKE UP and see the last thing we need is the feds in our face.

Silver City 4

I'd rather have more of my taxes back than have the Fire Grant. But it's there, so we'll apply. As for the fact that law enforcement gets (and has had) support from the federal government, I don't think the solution is to INCREASE federal money for fire departments. I think that the federal government should DECREASE federal money for law enforcement.

Local issues are best dealt with on the local level.

AMEN!

Dalmatian90

Then quit whining and get tax support.

YES!

hctrouble25

WE CANNOT GET TAX SUPPORT JUST BY SAYING WE WANT IT,...THEY GET FIRE PROTECTION WITHOUT HAVING TO PAY OUT MUCH MONEY AND THEY LIKE IT THAT WAY.

Not singling you out, but why is the lack of local funding in your, or any other town, the American taxpayers problem?

Isn't it a local problem?

LIKE I SAID...VIRIGINA BEACH VA?! PLEASE THEY HAVE TONS OF MONEY COMING IN...

Like I said, this is a vote buying scheme pure and simple.

Smell it all around you brothers and sisters, regardless of how you want to see it or spin it, the Fire Act is simply welfare for fire departments.

WHAT IS THAT OLD SAYING? "MONEY GOES TO MONEY"?

Part of the deal was you had to match part of the grant based on your population. If you couldn't match, you didn't get.

Dalmatian90

It's called elections. Most rural towns, the Fire Company(s) are the second largest and the best organized group of people (the largest and not so organized is the Parent-Teacher Orgs). Start flexing. Change doesn't happen overnight, often only small changes happen year to year, but over the decades big changes occur.

Yep, the VFD in most communities can carry an election for mayor, city council, county commissioners, you name it.

[ 08-06-2001: Message edited by: mongofire_99 ]