1. #1
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    Default High Rise Packs/Hose

    My Dept is looking to standardize high rise packs. Most of our buildings are actually "Mid-rise".

    Our most common pack is: 200' 1.75" "Lightweight" hose with Elkhart combo nozzle (125gmp/75psi fog and 15/16" smooth bore) connected to gated wye and short section of 2.5" bundled tightly in a pack with a strap. The 200' is needed in several "retirement" buildings to reach.

    Questions -

    What brands of Lightweight hose are departments using?

    What kind of pack/bundle/carry configurations are being used?

    Is any other equipment being carried with the hose pack?

    Any other suggestions/ideas would be greatly appreciated.

    Thanks.
    RCFRDFIRE3

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    If you are hooking into a standpipe, my suggestion to you would be that you use a 2 1/2 inch line with a smoothbore nozzle. Anything else is irresponsible, ineffective, and dangerous. Friction loss and operating pressure are too much with the smaller line and a fog nozzle when you're hooked to a standpipe. The problems that can lead to, and have led to, are obvious. So, why not avoid that with the 2 1/2 and a smooth bore?

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    I would have to agree with MAMALUKE to an extent on this subject. I however, dont believe that one should not consider using the standpipe with the 1.75 hose. It has been shown that it can be effective with the proper application to the type of situation dictated. The old saying "Big fire, big water" should come into play with a little common sense as well.
    The friction loss of the standpipe should be calculated in by the D/O. The friction loss of a 4,5 or even 6 inch standpipe is very minimal compared to a leader line operation using a Gated Wye. You stated that the buildings are Mid-rise. The number of stories of the building as well are factors that the D/O is supposed to calculate for the TPL.
    I do like the option of the 15/16 SB also. We use them at work and it is a good back up to have if needed. With a 200 foot section it can flow 180 gpm @150 psi. Now bump up on the pressure just tad and you can have close to 200 gpm. That is almost the same for a 1 inch tip on a 2 1/2.
    The light weight hose is a nice feature to have. The packs at work are set up in a traditional flat load or split flat one side inverted on the other for faster deployment.
    The tools to carry with the load should be an extra wagon wheel and spanners. Someone may decide to borrow the wagon wheel that came with the pipe leaving you there with a lot of dry hose. Also try to use as few couplings as possible to reduce water damage to the other parts of the building. Single sections @ 100' a piece work well for this applicaton.
    Oh ya. Just make sure that the Gated Wye valves are in thier correct position. Myself and a Lt. were doing a training burn, thank goodness, and found out that the valves in the wye we were using were put back in wrong after being repaired. We thought they were closed when they were really open. It was frustrating to say the least.

    [ 08-16-2001: Message edited by: pwc606 ]

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    We are looking into hand truck's (like the UPS man uses)
    We carry (one) 50foot 2 1/2, (three)50 foot 1 3/4 hose's, gated y 2 1/2 to "2" 1 1/2 and fogs nozzel, but we want to add to it set of irons, two air tanks thermial imanger and 2.5 to 3 gals. of F-500 and an inductor...

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    We use hi-rise packs made up of 100' 1.5" hose double donut-rolled and strapped. They have a combo nozzle and a 2.5"-1.5" reducer.

    The idea of 2.5" hi-rise packs is interesting...I'll have to run that by the chief. I'm also trying to get him to add a gated wye to the pack.
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    Yea, we carry the wye with 2 200' of 13/4 inch hose. Also (for common senese purposes) carry the spanners, some of those connections are not opened for 30 or so years and might be stubborn.
    These are not the opinions of my department.~

  7. #7
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    Clemons Bag with TFT gated Y that has the gauge on one discharge. 12' of 3" Neidner Lightweight hose, and 150-200' of 1 3/4" Neidner XL800 Lightweight hose. For a Nozzle...the TFT Mid-Matic (high/low pressure nozzle)Mid-matic or go to the same web site and check out the VIT Nozzles (has a shut-off with your choice of slug tip) and go with mid-matic tip only. Additionally look at the mid-force nozzle (dual pressure) This give you the ability to go to low pressure setting in high rise and it reduces the amount of pressure required to for the automatic nozzle to flow slowly. You will also find that in the low pressure setting the mid-matic has the same quality stream and reach as a 15/16" SB. Also..TFT is the only nozzle manufacturer that has a bumper to bumper 5 year warranty on their nozzles.Mid-Force
    Last edited by captstanm1; 03-25-2002 at 03:07 PM.
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    Someone called using 2 1/2 line in a high-rise pack "interesting". Interesting? What, you never heard of it? This should be standard. I'm no expert on NFPA standards, nor do I want to be, but I'm pretty sure the NFPA standard for high rise packs is 2 1/2 inch hose and a smoothbore- and for good reason. I could be off though. Either way though, its a good, smart tactic.

    Why is it the safety police in the fire service have everything backwards??? Why do we yell at people because their chin strap ain't buckled, yet at the same time we send them up 30 floors in a building to fight a fire by connecting to a standpipe with 1 3/4 line with a fog nozzle??? Why is this OK and normal and accepted. Its retarded and self contradictory. They like to nit-pick, but when it comes to common-sense stuff that can really make a difference in safe operations, they don't care. We need to get our priorities straight.

    [ 08-20-2001: Message edited by: mamaluke ]

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    Trumpeter...

    How the heck do you deploy donut rolled hose in a stairwell?? And only 100 feet?? If you're hooking into the standpipe at the floor below the fire you may never reach the fire with only 100 feet, you probably going to use at least 50 going up the stairs.

    We use 150' of lightweight Neider Hose with a fog nozzle. I would prefer a 2.5" line with smooth bore, but I'm convinced this debate will never be settled within the fire service. We pack our hose like this...

    1st 75' length is flat packed
    2nd is kinda like an inside out flat pack. The nozzle is in the middle and the reamining 75' of hose is packed around this.

    When this is stretched, the first 75' gets deployed up the stairs (over the shoulder like a typical pack), the second length is dropped on the landing of the fire floor. The line is then charged without flaking out the second length. This cause the line to make a nice cirlce "pattern" on the landing and makes the line easy to deploy. There are no kinks and the line is very easy to advance. Plus you save time by not having to carry the second length to the floor above then back down.
    Mike DeVuono
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    Originally posted by mamaluke:
    Why do we yell at people because their chin strap ain't buckled, yet at the same time we send them up 30 floors in a building to fight a fire by connecting to a standpipe with 1 3/4 line with a fog nozzle???
    I don't think that the original poster was talking about a 30 story building. In my town, the tallest building is 10 floors. (most of these 'high rises' are fully sprinklered or concrete construction). The average building is 3 or less.

    We use our "high rise" pack for more than highrises.

    We have several parking decks, several dorm buildings 2-4 stories, a few one or two story light industrial or storage buildings and a few large office buildings, all with standpipes.

    In all these situations we use our "high rise" pack rather than rely upon the standpipe hose and plastic nozzle that is often present.

    For this purpose we have a high rise pack with 200 feet of lightweight (single jacket) 1 3/4 inch hose and an elkhart fog nozzle.

    I think if we had 30 story buildings we would be doing things different. However, when my dept. is discussing a "high rise" pack, we are not discussing the same as you.

    With that in mind, I don't think that we are being "unsafe" or not operating in accordance with NFPA standards.

    I guess we should call it a standpipe pack, not a high rise pack.

    [ 08-20-2001: Message edited by: no_name_FF ]
    The above is MY OPINION only and not that of anyone else. I am not representing any organization in making a post here!!!!

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    In answer to the deployment of a donut roll ... it is easier to deploy a donut roll than to deploy out of a high-rise pack. A donut roll (unless trumpeter75 uses a different definition) leaves both couplings outside the rool. By rolling the donut roll down the stairs, you end up with a loop. A double donut roll is half the diameter by making two rolls side by side. Same thing though, you have both couplings at the same location on the outside of the roll. This also works great for bumper lines and extra lengths kept in a compartment.

    In my experience with packaged hoselines, I have found that departments are creating "high-rise packs", but the highest building they are protecting may only be 4 or 5 stories high. So they are only packing hose, a nozzle, and an adapter.

    As to the debate on 1 3/4 vs 2 1/2 inch hose, I think a department has to make a determination based on how many people will be on the line, what the typical pressure in the system will be, and the distance you must cover with the handline. I have always been a proponent of getting to the location faster and getting water on the fire sooner. I would also rather have two 1 3/4 lines with two firefighters per line on a fire vs one 2 1/2 inch line with 4 firefighters on the line. For speed and weight, I know of several agencies that use lightweight 1 1/2 inch line with a TFT switchable nozzle, designed to operate at regular and low pressures.

    If you do use 2 1/2 inch hose in your packs, you might want to break the packs down into multiple packs of 100-150 feet each to decrease individual weight.

    Oh, and get on that Stairmaster, because you know the damn elevator will be out that day.
    (Yes, I know, 2 floors below the alarm floor)
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    The Fire Service ... where there is a right way, a wrong way, the Chief's way, the Deputy's way, the Captain's way, the Lieutenant's way ....

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    Length: take into account that codes now allow 200' hose reach from the NEAREST hose valve. Think about it.

    Size: Why not carry 2 packs. One with 1 3/4 for compartmented bldgs like hotels & apts. And a 2 1/2 for open plan office bldgs.

    I look funny at anyone who says one size fits all.

    And don't forget to take into account what the smallest girl can carry to the top floor of your tallest building. Don't need any law suits. Hehehe.......

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    Well, I have to admit to my department being somewhat backwards in the hi-rise business. We have relatively little experience in actual fires in a multi-story building, so I guess we just kept the same size packs we always had. Yes, I define a donut roll the same way everyone else does. We've always deployed them by coupling to the standpipe, holding on to the nob, and dropping the roll down the hole in the stairwell and let gravity do the rest.

    YES I know this may seem assinine, but believe it or not there are some of us who are trying to improve our procedures. That's one reason I participate in forums--to get ideas. Putting them into practice in the face of dug-in tradition is another story.

    To be fair, this hi-rise novice has learned a LOT from this forum.
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    Ahhh..nevermind...I think I got it figured out now...

    Tend to forget "textbook" definitions ya know. When I hear donut roll I think of what we all refer to a donut roll but is really a "service" roll.

    [ 08-21-2001: Message edited by: Mike DeVuono ]

    [ 08-21-2001: Message edited by: Mike DeVuono ]
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    Does anyone remember...
    Philadelphia, 1 Meridian Plaza

    As I recall, an issue that came to light was the use of inadequate standpipe hose packs and appliances.

    Here is my opinion...

    You are advancing into this high rise or commercial occupancy with something like 3 bundles of hose and assorted appliances. Correct me if I am wrong, but this is a one shot deal. Your transit time to the fire area can be significant, your manpower limited. You cannot park your pumper on the fire floor. That said....can anyone tell me how it doesnt make sense to bring 2.5 inch hose and a low pressure nozzle capable of a high flow with you? It seems simple to me. Bring hose that will let the water flow and a nozzle that will operate at low pressures. If not, arent you risking playing catchup...can you risk that? Standpipes are notorious for some of the following problems:
    -Broken handwheels
    -Low Pressures
    -Mismatched Threads
    -Presure limiting valves
    -Garbage in pipes
    -Corrosion
    The list goes on. You have alot more variables here because unless you have a good inspection record and proactive codes and attention by fire officials, you are taking a gamble. The gentleman who stated taking anything less than certain items is irresponsible...I disagree with your terminology. You prefer the smoothbore, so do I. The important issue, however, is to have a low pressure nozzle. The advantage a smooth bore affords is that chunks of crap that may present themselves through antiquated piping systems are more likely to flow through as opposed to being caught in a combination nozzle. So personally, I cannot see using anything less than 2.5" hose, but convincing firefighters of this is a whole issue unto itself. The FDNY uses a 1 1/8 tip, this provides ~250@50PSI. I think its no harm to step up to 1 1/4 to get ~325@50PSI. Another interesting option is to have stacked tips, [1"-1 1/8"-1 1/4"]. You should have hardware and appliances to allow access to systems that might be in disrepair. Using 1.5" hose for standpipes is LUDICROUS. That is one thing I will say with affirmation.

    Consider carrying (not necessarily all of it...but some ideas!):
    -Hose in bundles of 50'. More lighter weight bundles so that each member can carry a length and split the work. The bundles or horseshoe loads can also be carried allowing a free hand to carry tools etc.
    -NOZZLE: Smooth Bore or LOW PRESSURE combination nozzle. Break apart style, consider twist shut off combination heads for use if a line is to be extended.
    -A bag with...
    -Adapters [NST to pipe, double male and female, 30 degree elbow, CAPS, etc]
    -Wire brush [takes rust and scaling corrosion from threads]
    -Pipe wrench [18" or so...add a piece of pipe as a breaker bar and keep it in the bag to slide over the handle of the wrench
    -Mallet
    -Small pry bar
    -Vise Grips
    -Door wedges
    -Tire tubes cut into bands
    -Spanner wrenches
    -Combination nozzle tip
    -Hose straps
    -Utility rope (small)
    -elevator keys
    -BIG colored chalk [search marking on doors]
    -Plastic door search markers

    Hope this helps. Try looking on "FIRE ENGINEERING" Magazine for good articles on standpipe packs.

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    Originally posted by M G:
    Does anyone remember...
    Philadelphia, 1 Meridian Plaza

    As I recall, an issue that came to light was the use of inadequate standpipe hose packs and appliances.
    I seem to recall that was one of the problems also.

    Originally posted by M G:
    Using 1.5" hose for standpipes is LUDICROUS. That is one thing I will say with affirmation.
    While I agree that in a traditional "high rise" situation, the more the better is the way to go, but, there are other ways to use packs like that. One of the areas covered by my dept. is a state college. They have a number of dorms that are either 2 or 3 stories with standpipes every 100 feet. Half the time the hose is missing (great to be the state and not have to follow the fire code) or damaged, so we bring a pack to supply our own hose. It's not a traditional use of a "high rise pack," but it does the job for us.

    Were we faced with buildings like Meridian Plaza or numbers of 15 to 20 story apartments in Camden County, I would certainly expect our "high rise" gear to be different.
    The above is MY OPINION only and not that of anyone else. I am not representing any organization in making a post here!!!!

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    Default 2 1/2 versus 1 3/4 high rise pack

    every department needs to set there their sop's to their department only. you cannot try to copy other cities ,it may not work with you. consider your manpower and other resources. my department runs 4 engines,1 ladder,1 rescue ,1 command vehicle . off duty members are called in for additional truck and engine, plus there is mutual aide. minimum is officer and 2 f/f's per company,except rescue is 1 and 1. certain factions of the department have convinced those in decision making positions that the 2 1/2 high rise pack should be used in your class 1 standpipe. a very large number of us tat do the work disagree. it is taking more time to get the line in service,is more difficult to manuever in an apartment,and with the 2nd due engine helping stretch the first line, 3rd due on water supply outside,there is no backup line anywhere in the near future coming. there is so much concern for f/f safety, they say the 2 1/2 with s/b nozzle will give you the flow and thats safe. others say that firs company with 3 men take 1 3/4 line s/b nozzle,get it in service quicker and hence water flowing faster. then let the officer do his job and make the call for a 1 3/4 or 2 1/2 back-up line. we are a small 100 man department running 6000 calls plus a year and medical runs. we are not staffed 5 man engines and trucks, and there is not 20 engines on additional alarms . thtas why i say, you must consider your department for your procedures, not what big city deartments say

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    There is absolutely nothing wrong with using 1 3/4" hose and fog nozzles for high rise packs if you follow one of the national model building codes. In fact, 1 1/2" is perfect.

    If you aren't then you best be using 2 1/2" and a SB tip only.

    Hose in either kit should be purchased for burst resistance, heat resistance, kink resistance first, then flow, then drag resistance, then weight. If not done in that order you will be in for a nasty surprise one day.

    Anything larger than 2" hose for high rise in a compliant building is silly.

    Your typical gated wye is costing you 30 to 50 psi in loss when used with 1 3/4" or 2" hose at 150 or 200 gpm. Not a good thing on non-compliant systems. COmpliant systems should consider adding a elbow relief valve to the highrise bundle to protect the second line on the wye from water hammer and line shutdowns, plus pressure pump kick ins.

    On compliant systems make sure you no the override pressure of the building pumps or tanks before you supply them, or your water will go no where.

    Standpipe system loss should not be figured by the DO, it should be demonstrated each year by the FD on site, anything less is irresponsible!

    The attack line whether on a 100 story or a 5 story building needs to match the system performance, there is no one size fits all.

    Hose length of the pack should match the code as well, 200 feet is 100 feet to long with the UBC/UFC code.

    If you are following a model code your fire truck is in fact on the fire floor, pumping the system is optional in many cases.

    Carry all of this???
    Hose in bundles of 50'. More lighter weight bundles so that each member can carry a length and split the work. The bundles or horseshoe loads can also be carried allowing a free hand to carry tools etc.
    -NOZZLE: Smooth Bore or LOW PRESSURE combination nozzle. Break apart style, consider twist shut off combination heads for use if a line is to be extended.
    -A bag with...
    -Adapters [NST to pipe, double male and female, 30 degree elbow, CAPS, etc]
    -Wire brush [takes rust and scaling corrosion from threads]
    -Pipe wrench [18" or so...add a piece of pipe as a breaker bar and keep it in the bag to slide over the handle of the wrench
    -Mallet
    -Small pry bar
    -Vise Grips
    -Door wedges
    -Tire tubes cut into bands
    -Spanner wrenches
    -Combination nozzle tip
    -Hose straps
    -Utility rope (small)
    -elevator keys
    -BIG colored chalk [search marking on doors]
    -Plastic door search markers

    Nah, follow the code, ordinances and let the law take care of it, the code is quite specific. If you are not following codes then maybe you shouldn't be going up in the building.

    A World Trade center via UBC would have 2 feet of concrete on each beam not a spray on coating. You get the level of protection you adopt.

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    Mike C

    Your typical gated wye is costing you 30 to 50 psi in loss when used with 1 3/4" or 2" hose at 150 or 200 gpm.

    No s$%t?!

    30 to 50psi?

    Is that straight off the standpipe or with a section of 2.5" form the pipe to the wye?
    It's only my opinion. I do not speak for any group or organization I belong to or associate with or people I know - especially my employer. If you like it, we can share it, you don't have to give me credit. If you don't, we are allowed to disagree too (but be ready to be challenged, you may be on to something I'm not). That's what makes America great!

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    TRUCKIE 306 says
    every department needs to set there their sop's to their department only. you cannot try to copy other cities ,it may not work with you.
    True words spoken in this paragraph!

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    off the standpipe.

    With a 1" to 1 1/4" waterway on the valve:

    150 gpm divided 29.71 or 36.91 = x itself = 17 or 25 psi

    200 divided by the same = 29 or 44 psi needed to get 150 psi through the valve.

    Try a full flow 2 1/2" wye with a reducer on it at the same pressure you'll feel and measure the difference the difference.

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    I never gave the FL in a wye much thought - "son, just add 5psi for the appliance" is what we were taught and just accepted.

    So much for the rule of thumb for appliances...
    It's only my opinion. I do not speak for any group or organization I belong to or associate with or people I know - especially my employer. If you like it, we can share it, you don't have to give me credit. If you don't, we are allowed to disagree too (but be ready to be challenged, you may be on to something I'm not). That's what makes America great!

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    5 psi son

    THAT IS DEAD ON ADVICE FOR 95 GPM.

    That same book says double flow quadruple the Friction Loss. Of course low bid small water way valves change that a tad.

  24. #24
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    15' of 3" lightweight hose
    2.5" to 1.5" gated wye (TFT with gauge on it)
    TFT Mid-Force (Dual Pressure nozzle) or
    The TFT ball valve with the 15/16" insert and a Metro Tip only
    2 75' sections of Neidner Double Jacketed Synthetic Lightweight hose.
    Spanner wrench

    Neidner is about 1/3 less weight than the traditional hose

    Put it together with clemens high rise pack

    The Mid-Force in the low pressure setting will deliver 200 GPM @ 75PSI NP and has an effective straight stream that is equivalent to a 15/16" SB tip.
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
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    The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.

  25. #25
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    I believe if you check the report, the problems from 1 Meridian in Philly stemmed from installation problems. Even if they had been using 2" hose there was no pressure on the system due to a pressure reducing valve in the basement being set too low.
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
    ------------------------------
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    The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.

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