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  1. #21
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    I have a few opnions on this. I believe that a Quint could be used to replace both an engine and a ladder if the rigs it was going to replace were both second out units. I do not think that a FD should consider replacing two first out units with one quint, besides decreasing flexiblity o/s it also give you less seats to transport FF to the scene. I know that many FDs have used a Quint to replace two rigs and reduce manpower , this would quialify in my mind as a very bad thing.

    I do think that smaller departments should consider quints when it comes time to replace their ladders and even small quints to replace their engines. Especially for FD who have no aerial capiblities.

    I also think that FDs that utilize Quints as Ladder Co. should only use the Quint for their engine capiblities when absolutly required and make the Ladder Companies duties well defined. I have seen some very vital truck company operation go unattended to while a ladder crew was performing engine comapny operations.

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  2. #22
    blackb16
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    XXX My major concern is that I do not feel it is a good idea to include the sale of our second engine in the justification for replacing our ladder for a quint.

    Then don't, just ask for a quint to replace the ladder.

    XXXX But I do not feel that we would be moving in the right direction by including the engine sale in the equation. My doubts remain that by only running a quint as the second due out (and not sending a engine as the third) that we will be losing the effectiveness of the company operations.

    Is the elected board you answer to all professional firefighters? If not you probably will be allowed to run your fire department within the budget and your way. Why bring the option up? Odds are if you don't bring it up it won't come up.

    XXXXit only becomes a training issue for both company officers and crew members to effectively manage the quint as a ladder company providing search and rescue, ground ladder placement, overhaul and ventilation as well as support the company role

    Most of those functions can be done with an engine, ladder or quint. They probably are everytime the ladder doesn't make a call.

    XXXX(that the third due engine served) as water supply

    Who are you supplying the water to and why? Does the first in engine take care of its own supply? What size hose to you carry? Would the quint lay its own line, if not why?


    xxxx I'd like to know where you got your information about the number of fires in Detroit.

    The OFFICIAL Detroit fire department web page. It seemed to work better than the San Francisco web page. AND the USFA, NFPA, etc.

    XXX I ask this because Detroit has not filed a true NIFIRS report in over 6 years.

    Your state has laws about falsifying of documents. Sounds like a union actionable offense. It is a federal offense as well. Whatever on the numbers, the USFA and NFPA numbers are based as well on clipping services, people do get buried in Detroit once their dead don't they? So you are lying about everything? All the data? However feel free to post the truth!

    XXXX The number of fires we've had has fluctuated over the years

    Well let's say your department is consistent with its lying on the data, the numbers are posted wouldn't change.

    XXX please predict the number of fires that we will have over the coming years.

    OK, Take your most current 8 year average and trends and you will have for the next fire year 53 structure fires per station per year per shift. Yep, one every other shift. Not a working fire but a structure fire response. Or one structure fire response every 41 hours you are on shift.


    xxx The number of fires we've had has fluctuated over the years and will continue to do so.

    Yes they have, wildly Not a working fire but a structure fire response. The high was 61 and the low was 46. Yeah that extremely wide swing means you running a structure fire every 36 hours to 47 hours on average. It must be horrible trying to adjust to the fluctuation. All trneds indicate things are way down like 25%, so you get more sleep. Oh if you do the 8 year analysis of any period on record you will always be within a single digit of what really occured. It still works out to one every other shift or so.

    XXXX I take it by some of your remarks that you agree with staffing cuts,

    Sure population is down 7%, fire down 20 plus percent, why not? A little creativity, new staffing ideas and yep, the town still won't burn down no matter how hard anyone tries. Fire fatalities as low as anyone's. Odds are they are getting themselves out not be carried out by firefighters.

    XXXX Thank you for the compliment on the number of fire deaths (still to many). We must be doing something right, Huh.

    You can't accept that! You said it is all a lie! Are the politicians filling out the NFIRS or the Firefighters and chiefs? How can you take credit for anything if you all are making it all up?

    xxx They would cut staffing and go to 3 or possibly but not likely a 4 person quint, thus cutting around 4 to 5 hundred firefighting positions and approximetly 20 apparatus.

    So response times might be a bit longer...but probably not, modernize your attack strategy, a lot more big hose and who knows, odds are losses will still continue the trend down! Not all of your stations have ladders now, so quints, depending upon design could be a good thing for you. Odds are with that evil city council they will do it just to spite you because nobody but the fire department cares about the people, right?.

    XXXX Yes we do reverse lays and I would match my crews ability to get water on the fire as fast as a forward lay. Can you squirt water in less than 30 seconds? How about 15? No not even close. Can the engineer back at the hydrant down the street help pull the attack line, throw a ladder or look out for the guys? No. Let's talk about making foam through a wyed line. Can the engines wagon battery be used if it is down the street? NO. When the fire gets away from your single out gated wye it is a long way down the street for the next lines. Na, you aren't going to equal anyones preconnects, ever.

    XXXX Until you come here and watch us, which I doubt you have or ever will,

    Already done it a few times. Need some photos to verify what I'm saying. They are all taken in Detroit. Oh and the press clippings: "Hall of Shame" Detroit Fire Department: Out of Service
    "Many hydrants in Detroit haven’t worked in years...So many of Detroit’s 30,400 fireplugs are broken that the department this year ran out of yellow tags designed to alert crews that their main weapon against fires is unavailable..." - Detroit News I guess you can pick up from that pretty quick?

    Oh don't take my word for it, here are some photos you can explain to us http://www.ci.detroit.mi.us/fire/det...t_on_the_c.htm

    #1, running ahose up a ladder pipe must be a pretty fast way to make a master stream. Kinda flow limited to. Four guys one ladder pipe, nope, one or two is plenty here. Nah, I'll take a plumbed 1500 gpm water way attached to the pump. Looks like yo could use some flood lights too. Another very old idea.

    #2 Wow two short lengths of 2 1/2" hose makes a preconnected monitor. Nah, flow limited hig probability of hose failure limited by the device as far as turning, lowering and sweeping. Very old idea.

    #3 Yep worst suction connection in use, small lines, old ideas, lousy streams it all fits.

    #4 Is it just me but the handlines should be put away and deck gus put in use supplied by big hose?

    XXX Your self righteous attitude is not appealing to anyone.

    So let's talk about your opinion. How long does it take to drop a 300 foot supply to a gated wye to get water flowing, come on you can't beat a preconnect line ever! You have no growth, you are limited by the hose size. You are using stone age techniques. YOu are one of what 0.001% of the service still doing things like that?

    Quints here would equal much less staffing per apparatus and far more work per fire, yep, 11 hours sooner per structure fire.

    XXXX not to mention the loss of our 100' trucks for the high rise structures already here and now being built throughout the city.

    You already run 100 foot quints. What are you talking about?

  3. #23
    MBFDk5
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    XXX Then don't, just ask for a quint to replace the ladder.

    I am one of the officers who is against the idea of getting rid of the second engine and only replacing the ladder, as outlined in my second posting. The ladder will be swapped out for a quint. This is a given. However, I am in a position were I have to
    jusitify keeping the second engine.

    XXXXIs the elected board you answer to all professional firefighters? If not you probably will be allowed to run your fire department within the budget and your way. Why bring the option up? Odds are if you don't bring it up it won't come up.

    The board our district answers to is town officals with no emergency services experience at all. It is not at the point of including them yet. As I said before, this idea of including the second engine in the equation just came up.

    XXXX Who are you supplying the water to and why? Does the first in engine take care of its own supply? What size hose to you carry? Would the quint lay its own line, if not why?

    As an SOP the first due engine hits a plug, the second engine hits another plug as a back up for E2 or to take another tactical position (suppling the stick). Both engines carry 4" LDH 1000'+.

    Some of your points seem to be valid, however your presention does reduce the credibility of your statements.

  4. #24
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    LARRY!!! HOW IN THE HELL ARE YOU!!! LONG TIME NO SEE!!! WHERE YA BEEN??? I commend you on your ability to write more than 3 sentences and not once mention those tubs of **** out there in snake valley, tumbleweed or whereever the hell it is......But dammit pal...You can't hide yourself very well!!! The instant I saw ISO ratings come up in the post, I just knew you were still with us!!!

    Oh, and by the way....Since you know everything else....Tell me this....In your post you mentioned that MBFD's Quints could out-turn Philly's Tillers. Well, son....I have to argue with you on this one...Since you are the great know-it-all, consult your plethora of vast amounts of useless knowledge and tell me what the wheelbase is MBFDs' quints are?? Then, after you do that....Tell me what the wheelbase is of Philly's tillers.....Because I doubt very much that it's very much more than my extended cab Ford F-150 Longbed......Nice to see you again pal!!!! (GAG!)

  5. #25
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    The board our district answers to is town officals with no emergency services experience at all. It is not at the point of including them yet. As I said before, this idea of including the second engine in the equation just came up.

    1) You have a responsibility to use taxpayer money wisely, not miserly.

    2) It may not be a bad thing the Town Councilors have no emergency experience -- like buck probies, you have an oppurtonity to teach them from the scratch without having to deal with "When I was in the fire department, we did it this way..."

    3) If your town isn't up against severe financial pressures, why not present a plan to simply replace the ladder with a quint. Keep the potential of reducing an engine as a negotiation item.

    By hashing out in advance amongst the officers if your willing and able to give up the 2nd engine, you'll save time. Then if you can't get the council to agree to funding once, ask for the motion to be tabled for a month, work on the councilors privately to see if you can get them to buy the quint, then if it still doesn't look like it come to the second meeting, offer the compromise "We really feel the community needs the new ladder -- that's not questionable. We've really sharpened our pencils and thought out of the box -- with this new quint we've designed we feel we could also retire and sell our second engine. This sale would contribute $xxxxx against the purchase of the quint, and reduce annual maintenance by $xxxx. We're willing to do this as a compromise to get the new truck -- do we have your support to do so?"

    Gosh, compromise -- the forgotten thing in American politics.
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  6. #26
    blackb16
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    You might try laying out the concept of lease to own. Take the amount of the appratus multiply by 1.24 and divide by the number of years you want to lease and divide by 12 months.

    $650,000 x 1.24 / 12 years / 12 months equals $5500 per month payment. First payment is not due for 1 year after azrival of the rig.

    Or a lease to rent option trade the rig in every five years for a new one. Same rig for $6700 a month.


    XXX tell me what the wheelbase is MBFDs' quints are??

    Oh, MBFD doesn't have a quint. DUH! Try to keep up. They are just talking about buying one. They have a straight stick. However, they could buy a ladder with a 165 inch wheel base AND A rig 32 feet long, if they desire, all steer, or twin steer.

    Any of which would run circles around your 173" steer to drive and 252 trailer to tiller wheel bases and an overall length of 59' 7'.

    Oh, feel free to do the cramp angle math for us. Like you even know how.

    Instead of your 16 foot outrigger spread thety could have 11 feet and a 2.5 stability rating versus your 1.5 to 1. Your silly 250 tip limit flowing water would rise to MBFD chose to spec it. Where you have major 1000 gpm flow limitations they could do 1500 gpm with twice the tip load. They could even choose 3000 gpm. Plus they could put 1350 pounds on the end versus your without water flowing. They could also get a higher wider ladder than PHILLY's. And have a 5 degree side slope ability versus your 2.5 degrees. They could also distribute three times the firefighters And they could pay a lot less.

  7. #27
    Forum Member FireCapt1951retired's Avatar
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    Your completely right blackb16, I know absolutely nothing about the operations within this department, I've only been around for almost 29 years and I'm totally wrong. Plase forgive me dear God of Firefighting.

    I'm not going to continue to banter back and forth with you but be advised that a lot of your information is wrong, along with our illustreous so called department web site (which is a joke by itself). It is not uncommon for Detroit politicians to break the law on a daily basis with their record keeping antics (even after numerous state and federal investigations).

    Coverups, stealing money and lies are all a part of being a Detroit politician. The firefighters here do the best with what thay have and I'm proud of every one of the firefighters I work with in this city, they have more bal@s than you will ever have or hope to have.

    Go back to the hole you crawled out of or come here and straighten things out. I'm sure they would love to hire you with such vast knowledge and experience. Please show us how it's done.

  8. #28
    blackb16
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    xxx However, I am in a position were I have to jusitify keeping the second engine.

    Cool, go for te extra 3.5 ISO points. Build a hydraul.ic case for relays, long supply lines, extra tank water water, a smaller quint if some srtuff is on the 2nd engine.

    XXXthis idea of including the second engine in the equation just came up.

    Then keep it under yo hat and tell them if you buy a quint over a ladder you'll get credit for 1.5 fire trucks with ISO.

    XXXBoth engines carry 4" LDH 1000'+.

    There is your justification for the 2nd engine. A 4 inch supply line in not capable of supplying the quint or a ladderpipe to capacity in a forward lay. SO keep the 2nd or go to 5" hose.

    XXXSome of your points seem to be valid, however your presention does reduce the credibility of your statements.

    Yeah I'd be better received if I just gave opinions and never answered a difficult question with facts. Don't take this stuff on the board too serious.

    Look into your ISO rating and see what you could save the town if you replaced the ladder and the engine with two rigs.

    xxxxI know absolutely nothing about the operations within this department,

    I don't recall sayig you did or didn't did I?

    XXX I'm not going to continue to banter back and forth with you

    That figures yor position is defenseless, prtetty typical of a bunch of yo when faced with the facts,lol.

    XXX but be advised that a lot of your information is wrong,

    Yeah right, too hard to mention what or why, huh?

    XXX along with our illustreous so called department web site (which is a joke by itself).

    XXXXIt is not uncommon for Detroit politicians to break the law on a daily basis with their record keeping antics (even after numerous state and federal investigations).

    Yeah everything is their fault,

    xxx they have more bal@s than you will ever have or hope to have.

    Yeah yeah yeah, when you can't speak intelligently on any topic, attack the messenger. The facts are they all have two so do I!

    Nice point counter point. Another baseless poster. Yeah we can do anything but can't back it up can you?

  9. #29
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    hehehehehehehehehehehe....WELC OME BACK LARRY!!! You Abrasive Dolt!! No wonder you were asked to leave Fire-Rescue Magazine!!!!! I just KNEW you would show me up if I DARED to disagree with you!!!!!

  10. #30
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    So far, Larry has busted on one guy saying that it's impossible for the Quint in his town to fit everywhere their engine does, yet numerous other times said that the Quint turns/fits better than engines ... which is it?

    He's suggested that $475,000 is less than $449,000.

    He's suggested that w/ less fire & population, you need less staffing ... if you have 1 good fire a year or 1,000, don't you need the same amount of manpower/equipment per fire? Go ahead and play the odds Larry. That's why we keep killing firemen.

    He's suggested that the company to which I belong allows each fireman to do whatever they want, whenever they want, bring 30 pieces of apparatus so each guy can do his own thing ... ya, that's exactly how it works Larry, you idiot.

    And all this about ISO ratings ... I could care less about ISO ratings, I want whatever puts out fire the best. If that brings a better ISO rating, great. Conforming to numbers that people sitting in some conference room come up with is another thing that keeps killing firemen.

    Larry, when are you going to figure out that the good points that you do make are completely nullified by the assinine way you go about it? Whose side are you on anyway?

    Unless you're going to start acting like a human being, go back to your 1,000 alarm brush fire.

    Stay Safe - I don't want you to die, just grow up.

  11. #31
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    Here are a couple of interesting articles regarding Quints ... St. Louis and their problems are mentioned a couple of times.
    http://apfpa.org/issues/quintresponse03101997.html
    http://apfpa.org/issues/quintresponse08211997.html

    Stay Safe

  12. #32
    Forum Member DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
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    I have to agree with FireLT1951 and Planet Earth Command. To paraphrase from the motion picture "Poltergeist"....

    Larry's back......!
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  13. #33
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    When I first saw blackb16 posts I immediately thought it was either Nate Marshall or the "former" LHS. Now I know for sure it's our old pal LHS with a new alias. Been away for a long time. Been fighting some "tumbleweed conflagrations?" Ha ha ha

    The best thing you can do regarding blackb16 (LHS) is ignore him.

    Stay safe everyone!

    [ 09-08-2001: Message edited by: NY Smokey ]
    Tom

    Never Forget 9-11-2001

    Stay safe out there!

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  14. #34
    blackb16
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    Hey PA Firefighter

    thanks for posting typical union crap, very selective on what departments they choose to select, lack of knowledge of modern braking systems and crying in their beer as usual, LOL! WAH WAH

    Nothing constructive offered.

    Oh, the 2002 budget has ben approved with quints in it.

    "Only one of 32 bidders was under weight!" Gee, let me guess the lightweight quint was an E-One. Alloy body, cab and ladder. GVW 46,000 not 51,000 like the other bidders.

    "Too much weight on the rear end!" OK suggest a set of duals.

    "It won't stop!" How about using a retarder, jake brake or drive line brake? You know follow NFPA 1901.

    "It will be too heavy for our bridges."
    Where is the proof?

    "they are unsafe"
    Where is the proof?

    "quints cause guys to loose their job!" Are you sure it isn't politicians and managers who layoff or reduce staffing? In fact two referenced FD had mandates to lay off guys. The fire chief's job and if labor would join in is to figure out how to survive. Typically one side decides the only option is the way things are. So one side buys quints or closes stations or lays guys off.

    "Richmond laid off 50 guys." No they didn't they allowed them to retire in the normal course of busines. In fact, the quints kept 50 layoffs from happening and stopped the clopsure of 2 stations. It is a shame RFD can't spec a decent fire truck.

    "we're against quints1' Of course they never state what they are for.

    "St Louis had accidents due to brake fade." Dang theyt had accidents with pumopers due to brake fade and on the first generation of quints didn't go with an aux brake device. SO maybe ACFD should.

    Last I checked union's have nothing to do with deployment strategies or department management. I guess that is why the county manager never answered the union's letter, because the firefighters work for the Chief, not for the county manager. LOL! As usual going around everyone. Try being professional just once.

    [ 09-08-2001: Message edited by: blackb16 ]

    [ 09-08-2001: Message edited by: blackb16 ]

  15. #35
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    What the heck are you talking about Unions, etc? You talk so much about nothing, no one can actually see what you're saying. Are you a politician? You must be. You will manipulate any kind of number/fact/whatever to get your desired result whenever it fits. Good luck w/ everything and hopefully you don't kill any fireman by trying to meet some quota or some conference room fabricated number.

    Stay Safe

    [ 09-08-2001: Message edited by: PA Volunteer ]

  16. #36
    blackb16
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    The ACFD union was real effective with their crying, the 2002 budget was apoproved with quints in it.

  17. #37
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    Larry, just because the bureaucrats and the powers that be don't listen to genuine concerns doesn't mean that the concerns aren't valid. Hopefully you would have figured that out by now. Apparently not, however.

    Stay Safe and don't kill anyone

    [ 09-08-2001: Message edited by: PA Volunteer ]

  18. #38
    blackb16
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    List "some genuine concerns."

  19. #39
    Forum Member FireCapt1951retired's Avatar
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    XXX The OFFICIAL Detroit fire department web page. It seemed to work better than the San Francisco web page. AND the USFA, NFPA, etc

    Sorry Larry it's not an official web site and never will be. The administration won't allow it to be official. They'd get caught throwing out the B.S.

    XXX Your state has laws about falsifying of documents. Sounds like a union actionable offense. It is a federal offense as well. Whatever on the numbers, the USFA and NFPA numbers are based as well on clipping services, people do get buried in Detroit once their dead don't they? So you are lying about everything? All the data? However feel free to post the truth!

    Sorry the state doesn't really give a dam either way. There is no federal requirement for filing a NFIRS report. The majority of states still don't do it to this day. Clipping services only know what the administration lets them know. What the hel@ does the number of dead people being buried have to do with the number of fires in the city annually?

    XXX Well let's say your department is consistent with its lying on the data, the numbers are posted wouldn't change.

    Sorry larry I don't buy that one. They post what they see fit, truth is not an endearing quality here if you want to be a politicians. Making the city look better is their only goal, even if they have to bullsh@t to do it.


    XXX OK, Take your most current 8 year average and trends and you will have for the next fire year 53 structure fires per station per year per shift. Yep, one every other shift. Not a working fire but a structure fire response. Or one structure fire response every 41 hours you are on shift.

    Not quite, the number of structure fires have fluctuated as much as 20-25% from year to year and as low as -5% . This depends on the coverage area. If the area covers a large portion that is populated the number of structure fires increases. Some sections of the city have been totally burned to the ground leaving nothing but vacant lots. The number of structure fires are effected by the economic conditions, gang and drug activity. The worst the economic conditions and the more gang and drug activity the more fires we have. Simple fact of urban life here. Your numbers may work for a booming suburban city but rarely for an old urban area.


    XXX Yes they have, wildly Not a working fire but a structure fire response. The high was 61 and the low was 46. Yeah that extremely wide swing means you running a structure fire every 36 hours to 47 hours on average. It must be horrible trying to adjust to the fluctuation. All trneds indicate things are way down like 25%, so you get more sleep. Oh if you do the 8 year analysis of any period on record you will always be within a single digit of what really occured. It still works out to one every other shift or so.


    I wish that were true for every company in the city but the fact remains that just over half the companies here are doing around 3-5 working fires per shift. The slowest company in the city will normally go 2-4 shifts sometimes before getting a structure fire. You averaging Larry and thats not good enough. You still have to cover the areas where the companies are busy with the slower ones.

    XXX Sure population is down 7%, fire down 20 plus percent, why not? A little creativity, new staffing ideas and yep, the town still won't burn down no matter how hard anyone tries. Fire fatalities as low as anyone's. Odds are they are getting themselves out not be carried out by firefighters.


    I must admit you are an administrative hack. The last I remember you need to cover a worse case scenerio and firefighting is manpower intensive. Some yes, some no.

    XXX You can't accept that! You said it is all a lie! Are the politicians filling out the NFIRS or the Firefighters and chiefs? How can you take credit for anything if you all are making it all up?

    Myself and others have been ordered to change reports then submit them and the adinistration has also changed them by rewriting the report. I wish the state would act but they simply don't care and they should, they will never attack the politicians of this town because of something called political correctness.


    XXX Already done it a few times. Need some photos to verify what I'm saying. They are all taken in Detroit. Oh and the press clippings: "Hall of Shame" Detroit Fire Department: Out of Service
    "Many hydrants in Detroit havenít worked in years...So many of Detroitís 30,400 fireplugs are broken that the department this year ran out of yellow tags designed to alert crews that their main weapon against fires is unavailable..." - Detroit News I guess you can pick up from that pretty quick?

    Sorry Larry, I doubt you've ever been here. if you do, make sure to pack a gun with you, you'll need it.
    Got the photos from the news huh. You really don't beleive they would print anything but the worst scenerio now would they. The hydrant problem is true. All hydrants reported to the administration and never repaired. The one thing the news story did was force the city to buy a lot of new apparatus in the last 18 months but nothing else.

    XXX #1, running ahose up a ladder pipe must be a pretty fast way to make a master stream. Kinda flow limited to. Four guys one ladder pipe, nope, one or two is plenty here. Nah, I'll take a plumbed 1500 gpm water way attached to the pump. Looks like yo could use some flood lights too. Another very old idea.

    Sorry to spoil your day but all ladder trucks except 4 are now prepiped. Again sorry Larry, we do have flood lights.


    XXX #2 Wow two short lengths of 2 1/2" hose makes a preconnected monitor. Nah, flow limited hig probability of hose failure limited by the device as far as turning, lowering and sweeping. Very old idea.

    Sorry again, all first line engines are directly connected to the pumps, no line needed.


    XXX #3 Yep worst suction connection in use, small lines, old ideas, lousy streams it all fits.

    We have consistently fought for better equipment and been told absolutely not. Want to buy us some. Oh I forgot it's all our fault the city refuses to buy neccesary equipment.


    XXX So let's talk about your opinion. How long does it take to drop a 300 foot supply to a gated wye to get water flowing, come on you can't beat a preconnect line ever! You have no growth, you are limited by the hose size. You are using stone age techniques. YOu are one of what 0.001% of the service still doing things like that?

    XX Quints here would equal much less staffing per apparatus and far more work per fire, yep, 11 hours sooner per structure fire.

    Yes we are and we've become quite effcient at it. I'm sorry to say that we have engine companies running short 300-400' of line and we have absolutely no spare line for any apparatus. again our fault the administration refuses to buy the new line. I disagree your analysis of quints, they are only an excuse to lay off firefighters and increase response times dramatically.

    XX You already run 100 foot quints. What are you talking about?

    Sorry to spoil your day again Larry but we do not have any quints in service. We used to have one in the far southwest section and it is almost 18 years old and had a 75 ft ladder and the ladder has not functioned for the last 15 years.

    Sorry to be so long winded people, so please accept my apology and reject quints for larger urban areas. I haven't typed this much in years, where's my senior man.

    [ 09-08-2001: Message edited by: FireLt1951 ]

  20. #40
    blackb16
    Firehouse.com Guest

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    XXXX I'm not going to continue to banter back and forth with you

    Yes you are.

    XXXX it's not an official web site and never will be. The administration won't allow it to be official. They'd get caught throwing out the B.S.

    It is the one and only city of Detroit fire department offical web page, with fire commissioner and fire chief intros, emails and phone numbers..
    http://www.ci.detroit.mi.us/fire/firehome.htm

    xxxx Clipping services only know what the administration lets them know.

    I see the politicians control the press, all the funerals, all the funeral homes, YOU ARE SO FULL OF IT.

    XXX Some sections of the city have been totally burned to the ground leaving nothing but vacant lots.

    Yeah,yeah yeah, the numbers are accurate per station as posted and supported by three independent sources I posted all three.

    XXX The number of structure fires are effected by the economic conditions, gang and drug activity.

    Who gives a damn, I told you how many fires would occur and I was awfully close what is one hour of sleep either way? Even with your sorry FD the town isn't burning down and more people are not dying.

    XXX Your numbers may work for a booming suburban city but rarely for an old urban area.

    I posted the facts, if you want to show your math to the contrary based on the last 8 years of data knock yourself out. Fires are down 20% period. Put up some proof to the contrary. A grand total spread of what 15 a year per station per shift. Whoop di dooo.

    XXXI the fact remains that just over half the companies here are doing around 3-5 working fires per shift. The slowest company in the city will normally go 2-3 shifts sometimes before getting a structure fire.

    That is not true, using your numbers the other group is having a structure fire every 7 days at best.

    XXX You still have to cover the areas where the companies are busy with the slower ones.

    I don't have to do anything, you want a prediction of the call volume, I proved that averaging would and increase and decrease factors would work out within 6%. It does every single year going front or backwards using the official data. Sorry you are still wrong. You don't have a significant fluctuation like you claimed that in any way effects resources or deployment. And you have not posted any data to prove to the contrary. All you've said is every thing ever published is a lie.

    xxxx I must admit you are an administrative hack.

    Yep when you call all the firefighters and officers of your own department liars then I guess you ought to attack me cuse all your math is made up with out basis.

    XXX last I remember you need to cover a worse case scenerio and firefighting is manpower intensive.

    BULL are you prepared for the 1967 riots and hell night every day every shift is that what you really believe?

    XXXX Myself and others have been ordered to change reports then submit them.

    You are stupid enough to do it? Get real.

    XXX Got the photos from the news huh.

    Nope, Nikon F-2 camera, glossy prints. Didn't need a gun either.

    XXX The one thing the news stroy did was force the city to buy a lot of new apparatus in the 18 months.

    YOu said they are all crooks. Looks like they are fixing things.

    XXX Sorry to spoil your day but all ladder trucks except 4 are prepiped.

    Doesn't change the facts on the four does it. Tell the whole truth, you still need to run a line to the intake on the ladder, run down the street with yor pumper laying very small hose and it takes forever and for guys, I posted a photo for my proof.

    XX we do have flood lights.

    You just don't know how to turn them on, posted pictures of my proof.

    XXX all first line engines have are directly connected to the pumps, no line needed.

    Once again I posted photo evidence.

    Oh don't take my word for it, here are some photos you can explain to us
    http://www.ci.detroit.mi.us/fire/det...t_on_the_c.htm




    XXWe have consistently fought for better equipment and been told absolutely not.

    Make up your mind, you just said the city bought you a mess of fire apparatus. That doesn't sound like absolutely not.

    xxxx Oh I forgot it's all our fault the city refuses to buy neccesary equipment.

    Yes you did, because you can't keep your story straight.


    XXXX Quints here would equal much less staffing per apparatus and far more work per fire,

    So when you pull out of the station in a Sutphen tower with pump, hose, ladders, etc the guys fall off by magic? Wrong again. Are you sure you work there? Isn't it true all of your aerials have ladders, pumps, hose and water on them today??? YES IT IS!

    xxxx they are only an excuse to lay off firefighters and increase response times dramatically.

    So all your current pump, water and hose equipped rigs have fewer firefighters on them than the engines?? NO!

    X
    Sorry to spoil your day again Larry but we do not have any quints in service.

    Technically speaking, but adding a water tank by itself to what you have been buying for the last 30 years wouldn't reduce tyo staffing in the least, in fact you carry water on most of your ladders just not the topwers. Here are the specs you've bought for 30 years. Sutphen 95' Aerial Platform
    WHEELBASE: 259"
    HEIGHT: 11' 4""
    LENGTH: 47' 7"
    CHASSIS: Sutphen
    6 Person, 4 Door full tilt cab
    Front Axle - Spicer 21,500 lb
    Rear Axle - Spicer 40,000 lb
    Transmission - Allison HD 4060P Auto
    Engine - Detroit Series 60, 470HP
    AERIAL: 95' Mid-mount platform
    1000 lbs Platform load
    PUMP: Hale
    QMAX 1,500 GPM
    Hosebed - 1200' of 5" hose
    Ground Ladders - (1) 35' 3 Section Extension, (1) 24' 2 Section Extension, (1) 18' Roof, (1) 14' Roof, & (1) 10' Folding

    Source: http://www.sutphen.com/

    Adding water to a tower or a hose bed to a lader truck doesn't cut staffing!

    XXX We used to have one in the far southwest section and was almost 18 years old and the ladder has did not functioned for the last 15 years.

    Well I ran a photo of a newer one and the one above is just months old the only thing missing is the FD didn't ask for the water tank on these but did on all the others in the city.

    XXX reject quints for larger urban areas.

    Amazing they keep buying the exact same rigs that are five function apparatus and he says they don't work and the staffing on his quads are the same as his ladders and engines. You've got 30 years of successful quad almost quint use. And you keep buying essentially the same rig over and over. Go figure.

    [ 09-09-2001: Message edited by: blackb16 ]

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