09-07-2001, 11:43 PM #26blackb16Firehouse.com Guest
You might try laying out the concept of lease to own. Take the amount of the appratus multiply by 1.24 and divide by the number of years you want to lease and divide by 12 months.
$650,000 x 1.24 / 12 years / 12 months equals $5500 per month payment. First payment is not due for 1 year after azrival of the rig.
Or a lease to rent option trade the rig in every five years for a new one. Same rig for $6700 a month.
XXX tell me what the wheelbase is MBFDs' quints are??
Oh, MBFD doesn't have a quint. DUH! Try to keep up. They are just talking about buying one. They have a straight stick. However, they could buy a ladder with a 165 inch wheel base AND A rig 32 feet long, if they desire, all steer, or twin steer.
Any of which would run circles around your 173" steer to drive and 252 trailer to tiller wheel bases and an overall length of 59' 7'.
Oh, feel free to do the cramp angle math for us. Like you even know how.
Instead of your 16 foot outrigger spread thety could have 11 feet and a 2.5 stability rating versus your 1.5 to 1. Your silly 250 tip limit flowing water would rise to MBFD chose to spec it. Where you have major 1000 gpm flow limitations they could do 1500 gpm with twice the tip load. They could even choose 3000 gpm. Plus they could put 1350 pounds on the end versus your without water flowing. They could also get a higher wider ladder than PHILLY's. And have a 5 degree side slope ability versus your 2.5 degrees. They could also distribute three times the firefighters And they could pay a lot less.
09-08-2001, 12:47 AM #27
Your completely right blackb16, I know absolutely nothing about the operations within this department, I've only been around for almost 29 years and I'm totally wrong. Plase forgive me dear God of Firefighting.
I'm not going to continue to banter back and forth with you but be advised that a lot of your information is wrong, along with our illustreous so called department web site (which is a joke by itself). It is not uncommon for Detroit politicians to break the law on a daily basis with their record keeping antics (even after numerous state and federal investigations).
Coverups, stealing money and lies are all a part of being a Detroit politician. The firefighters here do the best with what thay have and I'm proud of every one of the firefighters I work with in this city, they have more bal@s than you will ever have or hope to have.
Go back to the hole you crawled out of or come here and straighten things out. I'm sure they would love to hire you with such vast knowledge and experience. Please show us how it's done.
09-08-2001, 02:26 AM #28blackb16Firehouse.com Guest
xxx However, I am in a position were I have to jusitify keeping the second engine.
Cool, go for te extra 3.5 ISO points. Build a hydraul.ic case for relays, long supply lines, extra tank water water, a smaller quint if some srtuff is on the 2nd engine.
XXXthis idea of including the second engine in the equation just came up.
Then keep it under yo hat and tell them if you buy a quint over a ladder you'll get credit for 1.5 fire trucks with ISO.
XXXBoth engines carry 4" LDH 1000'+.
There is your justification for the 2nd engine. A 4 inch supply line in not capable of supplying the quint or a ladderpipe to capacity in a forward lay. SO keep the 2nd or go to 5" hose.
XXXSome of your points seem to be valid, however your presention does reduce the credibility of your statements.
Yeah I'd be better received if I just gave opinions and never answered a difficult question with facts. Don't take this stuff on the board too serious.
Look into your ISO rating and see what you could save the town if you replaced the ladder and the engine with two rigs.
xxxxI know absolutely nothing about the operations within this department,
I don't recall sayig you did or didn't did I?
XXX I'm not going to continue to banter back and forth with you
That figures yor position is defenseless, prtetty typical of a bunch of yo when faced with the facts,lol.
XXX but be advised that a lot of your information is wrong,
Yeah right, too hard to mention what or why, huh?
XXX along with our illustreous so called department web site (which is a joke by itself).
XXXXIt is not uncommon for Detroit politicians to break the law on a daily basis with their record keeping antics (even after numerous state and federal investigations).
Yeah everything is their fault,
xxx they have more bal@s than you will ever have or hope to have.
Yeah yeah yeah, when you can't speak intelligently on any topic, attack the messenger. The facts are they all have two so do I!
Nice point counter point. Another baseless poster. Yeah we can do anything but can't back it up can you?
09-08-2001, 03:05 AM #29
- Join Date
- Sep 2001
hehehehehehehehehehehe....WELCOME BACK LARRY!!! You Abrasive Dolt!! No wonder you were asked to leave Fire-Rescue Magazine!!!!! I just KNEW you would show me up if I DARED to disagree with you!!!!!
09-08-2001, 10:41 AM #30
So far, Larry has busted on one guy saying that it's impossible for the Quint in his town to fit everywhere their engine does, yet numerous other times said that the Quint turns/fits better than engines ... which is it?
He's suggested that $475,000 is less than $449,000.
He's suggested that w/ less fire & population, you need less staffing ... if you have 1 good fire a year or 1,000, don't you need the same amount of manpower/equipment per fire? Go ahead and play the odds Larry. That's why we keep killing firemen.
He's suggested that the company to which I belong allows each fireman to do whatever they want, whenever they want, bring 30 pieces of apparatus so each guy can do his own thing ... ya, that's exactly how it works Larry, you idiot.
And all this about ISO ratings ... I could care less about ISO ratings, I want whatever puts out fire the best. If that brings a better ISO rating, great. Conforming to numbers that people sitting in some conference room come up with is another thing that keeps killing firemen.
Larry, when are you going to figure out that the good points that you do make are completely nullified by the assinine way you go about it? Whose side are you on anyway?
Unless you're going to start acting like a human being, go back to your 1,000 alarm brush fire.
Stay Safe - I don't want you to die, just grow up.
09-08-2001, 11:04 AM #31
Here are a couple of interesting articles regarding Quints ... St. Louis and their problems are mentioned a couple of times.
09-08-2001, 11:39 AM #32
I have to agree with FireLT1951 and Planet Earth Command. To paraphrase from the motion picture "Poltergeist"....
Larry's back......!"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY
09-08-2001, 12:50 PM #33
- Join Date
- May 2001
- Recently relocated to Baltimore County, MD
When I first saw blackb16 posts I immediately thought it was either Nate Marshall or the "former" LHS. Now I know for sure it's our old pal LHS with a new alias. Been away for a long time. Been fighting some "tumbleweed conflagrations?" Ha ha ha
The best thing you can do regarding blackb16 (LHS) is ignore him.
Stay safe everyone!
[ 09-08-2001: Message edited by: NY Smokey ]Tom
Never Forget 9-11-2001
Stay safe out there!
09-08-2001, 01:05 PM #34blackb16Firehouse.com Guest
Hey PA Firefighter
thanks for posting typical union crap, very selective on what departments they choose to select, lack of knowledge of modern braking systems and crying in their beer as usual, LOL! WAH WAH
Nothing constructive offered.
Oh, the 2002 budget has ben approved with quints in it.
"Only one of 32 bidders was under weight!" Gee, let me guess the lightweight quint was an E-One. Alloy body, cab and ladder. GVW 46,000 not 51,000 like the other bidders.
"Too much weight on the rear end!" OK suggest a set of duals.
"It won't stop!" How about using a retarder, jake brake or drive line brake? You know follow NFPA 1901.
"It will be too heavy for our bridges."
Where is the proof?
"they are unsafe"
Where is the proof?
"quints cause guys to loose their job!" Are you sure it isn't politicians and managers who layoff or reduce staffing? In fact two referenced FD had mandates to lay off guys. The fire chief's job and if labor would join in is to figure out how to survive. Typically one side decides the only option is the way things are. So one side buys quints or closes stations or lays guys off.
"Richmond laid off 50 guys." No they didn't they allowed them to retire in the normal course of busines. In fact, the quints kept 50 layoffs from happening and stopped the clopsure of 2 stations. It is a shame RFD can't spec a decent fire truck.
"we're against quints1' Of course they never state what they are for.
"St Louis had accidents due to brake fade." Dang theyt had accidents with pumopers due to brake fade and on the first generation of quints didn't go with an aux brake device. SO maybe ACFD should.
Last I checked union's have nothing to do with deployment strategies or department management. I guess that is why the county manager never answered the union's letter, because the firefighters work for the Chief, not for the county manager. LOL! As usual going around everyone. Try being professional just once.
[ 09-08-2001: Message edited by: blackb16 ]
[ 09-08-2001: Message edited by: blackb16 ]
09-08-2001, 01:26 PM #35
What the heck are you talking about Unions, etc? You talk so much about nothing, no one can actually see what you're saying. Are you a politician? You must be. You will manipulate any kind of number/fact/whatever to get your desired result whenever it fits. Good luck w/ everything and hopefully you don't kill any fireman by trying to meet some quota or some conference room fabricated number.
[ 09-08-2001: Message edited by: PA Volunteer ]
09-08-2001, 04:30 PM #36blackb16Firehouse.com Guest
The ACFD union was real effective with their crying, the 2002 budget was apoproved with quints in it.
09-08-2001, 04:49 PM #37
Larry, just because the bureaucrats and the powers that be don't listen to genuine concerns doesn't mean that the concerns aren't valid. Hopefully you would have figured that out by now. Apparently not, however.
Stay Safe and don't kill anyone
[ 09-08-2001: Message edited by: PA Volunteer ]
09-08-2001, 05:04 PM #38blackb16Firehouse.com Guest
List "some genuine concerns."
09-08-2001, 08:20 PM #39
XXX The OFFICIAL Detroit fire department web page. It seemed to work better than the San Francisco web page. AND the USFA, NFPA, etc
Sorry Larry it's not an official web site and never will be. The administration won't allow it to be official. They'd get caught throwing out the B.S.
XXX Your state has laws about falsifying of documents. Sounds like a union actionable offense. It is a federal offense as well. Whatever on the numbers, the USFA and NFPA numbers are based as well on clipping services, people do get buried in Detroit once their dead don't they? So you are lying about everything? All the data? However feel free to post the truth!
Sorry the state doesn't really give a dam either way. There is no federal requirement for filing a NFIRS report. The majority of states still don't do it to this day. Clipping services only know what the administration lets them know. What the hel@ does the number of dead people being buried have to do with the number of fires in the city annually?
XXX Well let's say your department is consistent with its lying on the data, the numbers are posted wouldn't change.
Sorry larry I don't buy that one. They post what they see fit, truth is not an endearing quality here if you want to be a politicians. Making the city look better is their only goal, even if they have to bullsh@t to do it.
XXX OK, Take your most current 8 year average and trends and you will have for the next fire year 53 structure fires per station per year per shift. Yep, one every other shift. Not a working fire but a structure fire response. Or one structure fire response every 41 hours you are on shift.
Not quite, the number of structure fires have fluctuated as much as 20-25% from year to year and as low as -5% . This depends on the coverage area. If the area covers a large portion that is populated the number of structure fires increases. Some sections of the city have been totally burned to the ground leaving nothing but vacant lots. The number of structure fires are effected by the economic conditions, gang and drug activity. The worst the economic conditions and the more gang and drug activity the more fires we have. Simple fact of urban life here. Your numbers may work for a booming suburban city but rarely for an old urban area.
XXX Yes they have, wildly Not a working fire but a structure fire response. The high was 61 and the low was 46. Yeah that extremely wide swing means you running a structure fire every 36 hours to 47 hours on average. It must be horrible trying to adjust to the fluctuation. All trneds indicate things are way down like 25%, so you get more sleep. Oh if you do the 8 year analysis of any period on record you will always be within a single digit of what really occured. It still works out to one every other shift or so.
I wish that were true for every company in the city but the fact remains that just over half the companies here are doing around 3-5 working fires per shift. The slowest company in the city will normally go 2-4 shifts sometimes before getting a structure fire. You averaging Larry and thats not good enough. You still have to cover the areas where the companies are busy with the slower ones.
XXX Sure population is down 7%, fire down 20 plus percent, why not? A little creativity, new staffing ideas and yep, the town still won't burn down no matter how hard anyone tries. Fire fatalities as low as anyone's. Odds are they are getting themselves out not be carried out by firefighters.
I must admit you are an administrative hack. The last I remember you need to cover a worse case scenerio and firefighting is manpower intensive. Some yes, some no.
XXX You can't accept that! You said it is all a lie! Are the politicians filling out the NFIRS or the Firefighters and chiefs? How can you take credit for anything if you all are making it all up?
Myself and others have been ordered to change reports then submit them and the adinistration has also changed them by rewriting the report. I wish the state would act but they simply don't care and they should, they will never attack the politicians of this town because of something called political correctness.
XXX Already done it a few times. Need some photos to verify what I'm saying. They are all taken in Detroit. Oh and the press clippings: "Hall of Shame" Detroit Fire Department: Out of Service
"Many hydrants in Detroit havenít worked in years...So many of Detroitís 30,400 fireplugs are broken that the department this year ran out of yellow tags designed to alert crews that their main weapon against fires is unavailable..." - Detroit News I guess you can pick up from that pretty quick?
Sorry Larry, I doubt you've ever been here. if you do, make sure to pack a gun with you, you'll need it.
Got the photos from the news huh. You really don't beleive they would print anything but the worst scenerio now would they. The hydrant problem is true. All hydrants reported to the administration and never repaired. The one thing the news story did was force the city to buy a lot of new apparatus in the last 18 months but nothing else.
XXX #1, running ahose up a ladder pipe must be a pretty fast way to make a master stream. Kinda flow limited to. Four guys one ladder pipe, nope, one or two is plenty here. Nah, I'll take a plumbed 1500 gpm water way attached to the pump. Looks like yo could use some flood lights too. Another very old idea.
Sorry to spoil your day but all ladder trucks except 4 are now prepiped. Again sorry Larry, we do have flood lights.
XXX #2 Wow two short lengths of 2 1/2" hose makes a preconnected monitor. Nah, flow limited hig probability of hose failure limited by the device as far as turning, lowering and sweeping. Very old idea.
Sorry again, all first line engines are directly connected to the pumps, no line needed.
XXX #3 Yep worst suction connection in use, small lines, old ideas, lousy streams it all fits.
We have consistently fought for better equipment and been told absolutely not. Want to buy us some. Oh I forgot it's all our fault the city refuses to buy neccesary equipment.
XXX So let's talk about your opinion. How long does it take to drop a 300 foot supply to a gated wye to get water flowing, come on you can't beat a preconnect line ever! You have no growth, you are limited by the hose size. You are using stone age techniques. YOu are one of what 0.001% of the service still doing things like that?
XX Quints here would equal much less staffing per apparatus and far more work per fire, yep, 11 hours sooner per structure fire.
Yes we are and we've become quite effcient at it. I'm sorry to say that we have engine companies running short 300-400' of line and we have absolutely no spare line for any apparatus. again our fault the administration refuses to buy the new line. I disagree your analysis of quints, they are only an excuse to lay off firefighters and increase response times dramatically.
XX You already run 100 foot quints. What are you talking about?
Sorry to spoil your day again Larry but we do not have any quints in service. We used to have one in the far southwest section and it is almost 18 years old and had a 75 ft ladder and the ladder has not functioned for the last 15 years.
Sorry to be so long winded people, so please accept my apology and reject quints for larger urban areas. I haven't typed this much in years, where's my senior man.
[ 09-08-2001: Message edited by: FireLt1951 ]
09-08-2001, 11:56 PM #40blackb16Firehouse.com Guest
XXXX I'm not going to continue to banter back and forth with you
Yes you are.
XXXX it's not an official web site and never will be. The administration won't allow it to be official. They'd get caught throwing out the B.S.
It is the one and only city of Detroit fire department offical web page, with fire commissioner and fire chief intros, emails and phone numbers..
xxxx Clipping services only know what the administration lets them know.
I see the politicians control the press, all the funerals, all the funeral homes, YOU ARE SO FULL OF IT.
XXX Some sections of the city have been totally burned to the ground leaving nothing but vacant lots.
Yeah,yeah yeah, the numbers are accurate per station as posted and supported by three independent sources I posted all three.
XXX The number of structure fires are effected by the economic conditions, gang and drug activity.
Who gives a damn, I told you how many fires would occur and I was awfully close what is one hour of sleep either way? Even with your sorry FD the town isn't burning down and more people are not dying.
XXX Your numbers may work for a booming suburban city but rarely for an old urban area.
I posted the facts, if you want to show your math to the contrary based on the last 8 years of data knock yourself out. Fires are down 20% period. Put up some proof to the contrary. A grand total spread of what 15 a year per station per shift. Whoop di dooo.
XXXI the fact remains that just over half the companies here are doing around 3-5 working fires per shift. The slowest company in the city will normally go 2-3 shifts sometimes before getting a structure fire.
That is not true, using your numbers the other group is having a structure fire every 7 days at best.
XXX You still have to cover the areas where the companies are busy with the slower ones.
I don't have to do anything, you want a prediction of the call volume, I proved that averaging would and increase and decrease factors would work out within 6%. It does every single year going front or backwards using the official data. Sorry you are still wrong. You don't have a significant fluctuation like you claimed that in any way effects resources or deployment. And you have not posted any data to prove to the contrary. All you've said is every thing ever published is a lie.
xxxx I must admit you are an administrative hack.
Yep when you call all the firefighters and officers of your own department liars then I guess you ought to attack me cuse all your math is made up with out basis.
XXX last I remember you need to cover a worse case scenerio and firefighting is manpower intensive.
BULL are you prepared for the 1967 riots and hell night every day every shift is that what you really believe?
XXXX Myself and others have been ordered to change reports then submit them.
You are stupid enough to do it? Get real.
XXX Got the photos from the news huh.
Nope, Nikon F-2 camera, glossy prints. Didn't need a gun either.
XXX The one thing the news stroy did was force the city to buy a lot of new apparatus in the 18 months.
YOu said they are all crooks. Looks like they are fixing things.
XXX Sorry to spoil your day but all ladder trucks except 4 are prepiped.
Doesn't change the facts on the four does it. Tell the whole truth, you still need to run a line to the intake on the ladder, run down the street with yor pumper laying very small hose and it takes forever and for guys, I posted a photo for my proof.
XX we do have flood lights.
You just don't know how to turn them on, posted pictures of my proof.
XXX all first line engines have are directly connected to the pumps, no line needed.
Once again I posted photo evidence.
Oh don't take my word for it, here are some photos you can explain to us
XXWe have consistently fought for better equipment and been told absolutely not.
Make up your mind, you just said the city bought you a mess of fire apparatus. That doesn't sound like absolutely not.
xxxx Oh I forgot it's all our fault the city refuses to buy neccesary equipment.
Yes you did, because you can't keep your story straight.
XXXX Quints here would equal much less staffing per apparatus and far more work per fire,
So when you pull out of the station in a Sutphen tower with pump, hose, ladders, etc the guys fall off by magic? Wrong again. Are you sure you work there? Isn't it true all of your aerials have ladders, pumps, hose and water on them today??? YES IT IS!
xxxx they are only an excuse to lay off firefighters and increase response times dramatically.
So all your current pump, water and hose equipped rigs have fewer firefighters on them than the engines?? NO!
Sorry to spoil your day again Larry but we do not have any quints in service.
Technically speaking, but adding a water tank by itself to what you have been buying for the last 30 years wouldn't reduce tyo staffing in the least, in fact you carry water on most of your ladders just not the topwers. Here are the specs you've bought for 30 years. Sutphen 95' Aerial Platform
HEIGHT: 11' 4""
LENGTH: 47' 7"
6 Person, 4 Door full tilt cab
Front Axle - Spicer 21,500 lb
Rear Axle - Spicer 40,000 lb
Transmission - Allison HD 4060P Auto
Engine - Detroit Series 60, 470HP
AERIAL: 95' Mid-mount platform
1000 lbs Platform load
QMAX 1,500 GPM
Hosebed - 1200' of 5" hose
Ground Ladders - (1) 35' 3 Section Extension, (1) 24' 2 Section Extension, (1) 18' Roof, (1) 14' Roof, & (1) 10' Folding
Adding water to a tower or a hose bed to a lader truck doesn't cut staffing!
XXX We used to have one in the far southwest section and was almost 18 years old and the ladder has did not functioned for the last 15 years.
Well I ran a photo of a newer one and the one above is just months old the only thing missing is the FD didn't ask for the water tank on these but did on all the others in the city.
XXX reject quints for larger urban areas.
Amazing they keep buying the exact same rigs that are five function apparatus and he says they don't work and the staffing on his quads are the same as his ladders and engines. You've got 30 years of successful quad almost quint use. And you keep buying essentially the same rig over and over. Go figure.
[ 09-09-2001: Message edited by: blackb16 ]
09-09-2001, 10:59 AM #41
Larry, your're so full of bullsh@t, I'm surprised that it isn't coming out of your ears. Your photos showing quints in Detroit would have to be a fabrication because we simply don't have any. I know a hel@ of a lot more about the inner workings of this department than you. If you refuse to understand thats your problem, not mine! Yes quints suck now and always will!!! Now I'm done with you and you can continue to be the obnoxious person you are, along with being an embarrassment to the fire service. Bye
09-09-2001, 11:20 AM #42blackb16Firehouse.com Guest
Is that all you can do is be a little spoiled brat and call names. Come up with some facts! Support your case.
XXXX Your photos in Detroit would have to be a fabrication because we simply don't have any.
The the photos and the link I posted is from the covers of Fire House magazine.
Let me guess the politicians control that too and have inserted other trucks on the cover with the word DETROIT on the side.
XXXX I know a hel@ of a lot more about the inner workings of this department than you.
You certainly are failing on the outer workings to make ay case at all.
XXXYes quints suck now and always will!!!
So why does your department that you say is so cheap add pumps, hose and water to the ladder trucks. Buy TD hook and ladders. Buy plumbed water ways, custom cabs, massive diesel engines? All of which cost a heck of a lot more than the low end rig?? YOu just bought from three different builders too!
I KNOW! Because the FD has a lot more say that you know. Cheap is not a $600,000 ladder truck. Chicago gets two for that price.
Adding a pump, water, hose to your ladders has not cost you any staffing. IF it has tell us how all these new rigs came in and how many guys were alid off the same time? Go ahead tell us! NONE
It is the mayor's fault that you guys are tearing 4 year old fire trucks up so bad the manufacturers are afraid to touch them? The builders are calling yor new rigs "Death Traps".
The maintenance division is part of the FD, so what is the excuse? Is it the Mayor's fault "guys weld like a 2 year old?"
Is it the mayor's fault the mechanics won't paint or address rust?
Gret Scott man you've got one mechanic per major peiece of apparatus. "Lack of preventive maintenance" isn't the Mayor's fault it is the maintenance divisions job!
IF ANYONE CN READ THE FOLLOWING AND SAY THE FIRE DEPARTMENT ISN'T PARTIALLY TO BLAME SO BE IT. i DOUBT IT THOUGH
How Detroit Fire Department officials plan to spend the additional $3.4 million the department recently received from the city.
3 aerial ladder trucks
2 pumping engines
2 mini pumpers
6 squad trucks
11 station wagons for chiefs
3 vans for the repair shop
1 fuel truck
3 utility vehicles
1 hazardous materials truck
1 heavy duty tow truck
9 EMS ambulances
PLANET EARTH COMMAND
XXXXX You mentioned Philly's "Quints." Shows how much you know. Philly only has ONE Quint that they purchased as a trial piece- Guess what!!?? NO MORE!!! NO MORE NO MORE NO MORE!!!!
The piece of crap quint they have now is in the shop out of service more than it is in service.
OH, You own four according to the NFPA definition of a quint. Sorry you don't know your own fire department. Do I need to tell you which units?
Oh maintenance. Let's read what your own guys right off the union web page say about your quints and specs:
Philly You see how much Quint
69 is always OOS because of mechanical problems and breaking down
all the time. They got the quint back last week from damage
sustained in Hurricane Floyd and it's already out of service
because of breaking down. So if the city got more quints, maybe
they would buy better ones. Doesn't make sense...Be safe!
First of all, if Quint 69 had dual axles it wouldn't be out of
service as much...
Gee bad specs eh?????
So the Hurricane damaged the rig. As it would any rig when abused. You bought an overweight turkey and it means quints are bad? Your other three quints are serving daily without significant maintenance issues.
Chapter 7 Quints: 1901 that defines the minimum requirements for this special vehicle. Some of those items are:
1,000 GPM pump
300 gallon water tank
40 cu. ft. of compartmentation
85ft of ground ladders
30 cu. ft. of storage for 2Ĺ" or larger hose
Yep the city uses FOUR!!! LOL
[ 09-09-2001: Message edited by: blackb16 ]
[ 09-09-2001: Message edited by: blackb16 ]
09-09-2001, 12:33 PM #43
- Join Date
- Sep 2001
Larry- Why were you asked to leave Fire-Rescue Magazine??? Go ahead, tell us!!!!
09-09-2001, 01:07 PM #44
- Join Date
- Sep 2001
Larry- One other thing....Yes, I would like you to specify the supposed four quints that exist within the Structural Firefighting Division of the Philadelphia Fire Department.....Because simply, they don't exist!!! So yes, please, oh great one...Oh great 1000 alarm commander, please specify their station assignments and locations for me, so that I may travel there and photograph them for my collection...As I have a photo of each and every piece of apparatus that Philadelphia currently has assigned to the roster....I'll start by naming the first one....Quint 69 is located in the former quarters of Engine 69 and Ladder 26, at 82nd Street and Tinicum Avenue.
Now, you'll probably try to be smooth and pull the "Engine 78" move on me. Well, son...That ain't gonna work- Engine 78 is the CFR crew down at Philadelphia International Airport, who's budget does not come from PFD annual budgeting!!! The payroll, station and equipment funding for E78 comes from the FAA, the Pennsylvania Dept. of Commerce, the Pennsylvania Dept. of Transportation, the Phila. Dept of Commerce and the Phila. Dept of Aviation. The equipment located at PIA isn't allowed to leave airport property for normal "everyday" runs...Box assignments, Medic runs, etc...assistance calls only, such as a request for large amounts of foam. In other words....THEY DON'T COUNT!
Well....that about narrows it down. But I am more than sure that you'll try to once again, out-do me and everyone else here with your vast amounts of useless knowledge!! While you're at it, please enlighten us, oh great one....Why you had to leave Fire-Rescue Magazine???
09-09-2001, 03:04 PM #45
Larry, you want genuine concerns? How about 4 personnel doing the job of eight? How about one piece of apparatus w/ four personnel being listed as covering multiple assignments on the same run card? These are legitimate concerns. Now granted, you would rather kill a few firemen as long as it saves some money and helps the Conference Room ISO Rating. So, you won't see these as genuine concerns. You're not a fireman, you're a number cruncher disguised as someone who cares about the fire department. Go back to the conference room and see how many firefighter deaths you can justify with your ISO Ratings and dollar savings.
Once again, Stay Safe and don't kill any firemen.
09-09-2001, 03:47 PM #46blackb16Firehouse.com Guest
The boys in Detroit can't be too against the concept of the first in rig being outfitted to address fire, they've put hose, pumps and water on their ladders for years.
xxxx I would like you to specify the supposed four quints
Ok, let's do more than 4 shall we??? Squrt 8, Squrt 9, Squrt 38, Squrt 43, Squrt 57, Squrt 78, airport quint and L69. All meet the definition ISO and NFPA have for quints. Gee, 8!
XXXX Because simply, they don't exist!!!
All the philly related sites show photos to prove it to yourself.
XXXX As I have a photo of each and every piece of apparatus that Philadelphia currently has assigned to the roster.
A fire BUFF wow!
xxxx Now, you'll probably try to be smooth and pull the "Engine 78" move on me. Well, son...That ain't gonna work- Engine 78 is the CFR crew down at Philadelphia International Airport,
Is it or isn't it a Quint? Is it or isn't it staffed and operated by the philadelphia fire department? Did you or didn't you say you only had ONE quint. That makes TWO!
XXXX The equipment located at PIA isn't allowed to leave airport property for normal "everyday" runs.
SO, you said PFD had ONE quint. WRONG!
XXX In other words....THEY DON'T COUNT!
Fell free to change the rules as you go.
XXXX want genuine concerns? How about 4 personnel doing the job of eight?
Where is that occuring with quints? St Lois? Richmond? Philly? Houston? Dade COunty? Syracuse, Miami? Orland, Orange County CA? Charlotte? LA County? Fort Worth? They all run quints are they doing that????
xxxxx How about one piece of apparatus w/ four personnel being listed as covering multiple assignments on the same run card?
Gee that is the vehicles fault or do humans fill those things out. Pray tell where???
XXXX These are legitimate concerns.
Not until you post where.
XXXXX Now granted, you would rather kill a few firemen as long as it saves some money
So where have quints killed firefighters? We can list thousands of deaths on engines and ladders. But where quints?
So boy you've posted some big words can you back a single one up can you show a trend???? Will wait.
SO PA, Tell you what, why don't you tell us why Larry left fire rescue magazine. But you better be right, because there will be a knock at your door from a server the very next day if you are not. Firehouse.com has madeit real clear they will provide info as needed. SO, go ahead. Tell all of us. But be very very careful!
09-09-2001, 04:30 PM #47
Larry, if you deny that multiple cities have used Quints to cover the assignments of multiple pieces of apparatus w/ the staffing of one piece, then you're as blockheaded as they come (as if there was any doubt before). Like I said before, you're just an administrative bureaucrat who is on the side of the budget cutting, firemen killing politicians. Furthermore, I don't care if you believe me. The point has been made to everyone else who has been reading this forum that the current trend is to buy apparatus that can do everything, so you can buy less apparatus, staff them with less firemen, save money, and expect the firemen to do twice the work with half the personnel. Quints are not my personal preference, but I have no problem with quints as long as you staff them with twice the manpower of a traditional single piece, or run them as an engine or a truck, not both. That is all. So, continue on with your babbling, but it comes down to the trend of expecting four firemen to do the job of eight. Every single city you mentioned has used Quints as an excuse to cut the number of firemen. I'm sure you'll come up with something to the contrary, but it's just not true. Again, I don't care what you think, everyone else on this forum knows differently. Do Quints kill firemen? No, the bureaucrats (you) kill them by using Quints as an excuse to use less manpower. So keep manipulating the numbers to show what you want, but the numbers lie. You and your bureaucratic buddies kill firemen.
Finally, I could care less about why you left Fire-Rescue, why you were ever there, if you were ever there, or if you even left it if you were ever there. Talk to Planet Earth Command about that one. Furthermore, I highly doubt Firehouse.com cares who says what about why you left (if you did), don't flatter yourself.
Don't kill any firemen.
09-09-2001, 04:36 PM #48
XXX The the photos and the link I posted is from the covers of Fire House magazine.
Nice try but not one of those rigs are quints. As a matter of fact the only apparatus left in service from those pictures is the platform. Gee Larry 8-10 year old pictures, nice try.
XXX So why does your department that you say is so cheap add pumps, hose and water to the ladder trucks. Buy TD hook and ladders. Buy plumbed water ways, custom cabs, massive diesel engines? All of which cost a heck of a lot more than the low end rig?? YOu just bought from three different builders too.
We don't pick apparatus, the Commissioner and his sweet underlings do (mostly civilians and anti firefighting cronies like you). We have no input. Just as we have no input into safety either. The commissioner has refused to let us have that input.
XXX I KNOW! Because the FD has a lot more say that you know. Cheap is not a $600,000 ladder truck. Chicago gets two for that price.
Yeah Larry a COP picked those out. Firefighting personnel were allowed no input. Hell we had one deputy commissioner that actually ordered rigs off the internet. We've had nothing but problems with those rigs since their purchase.
XXX Adding a pump, water, hose to your ladders has not cost you any staffing. IF it has tell us how all these new rigs came in and how many guys were alid off the same time? Go ahead tell us! NONE
We are still understaffed by at least 120 fiefighting positions to allow 4 personnel on each apparatus. If they used quints as they want there would be a an almost 30% cut in staffing levels. They, like you, would love to do it. The trucks do carry water and a 1" red line that is used in rescue and exposure situations when the engine has not arrived yet. The rescues have been performed on numerous occasions, the latest was 3-17-01, if not for that 1" red line the child would have perished (kudos Lt. Lauer and FF's Orzech and Riggs).
XXX It is the mayor's fault that you guys are tearing 4 year old fire trucks up so bad the manufacturers are afraid to touch them? The builders are calling yor new rigs "Death Traps".
The Mayor new all along the shortcomings were there, as did the commissioner and deputy commissioner. If they would get the roads fixed here we wouldn't have to drive over 2-3 foot pot holes either. Sorry, thats the firefighters fault. We can't even get oil and hydraulic fluid, again our fault.
XXX The maintenance division is part of the FD, so what is the excuse? Is it the Mayor's fault "guys weld like a 2 year old?"
These are civilians that were hired through the general city process not the fire department. I know it's our fault the city chose to hire ill prepared mechanics and welders.
XXX Is it the mayor's fault the mechanics won't paint or address rust?
Hey Larry he's got the power right and he knew of the conditions that existed. It's also the commissioners fault isn't it. I know, the firefighters and officers have all the power right. I wish!
XXX Gret Scott man you've got one mechanic per major peiece of apparatus. "Lack of preventive maintenance" isn't the Mayor's fault it is the maintenance divisions job.
Yeah right, the mayor and commissioners control apparatus but yeah it's the firefighters fault again. It's the administrations job to make sure that portion operates effectively and they chose to ignore it. Again the firefighters fault.
XXX IF ANYONE CN READ THE FOLLOWING AND SAY THE FIRE DEPARTMENT ISN'T PARTIALLY TO BLAME SO BE IT. i DOUBT IT THOUGH
Yeah it's the commissioners fault, thats his job. It's also the deputy commissioners job. They haven't earned their pay! I know it's the firefighters fault, right, even though every problem was documented and sent directly to the commissioner and his deputy.
XXX How Detroit Fire Department officials plan to spend the additional $3.4 million the department recently received from the city.
I won't hold my breath until they come in thats for sure. I'm still shocked that they ordered all the rigs they did but the article left them no choice the Mayors feet were held to the fire.
It's individuals like you that gives the fire service a bad rap. Like I told you before, you'd fit into this department like a glove(anti-firefighting). Remember Larry, there's a difference between the administration and the firefighters. You can blame the Fire Department Administration but not the firefighters, which was basically what you originally stated. If they ever gave the firefighters the right to be involved, then we wouldn't be in this condition. The commissioners and deputies have been mostly civilians and politically connected idiots. 1st- Owned a beauty shop- commissioner for over 20 years, no firefighting knowledge, 2nd Commissioner was a political hack and an idiot, deputy commisioner that almost destroyed the Jackson F.D and was married to the mayor's neice and also an idiot (eventually both fired). 4th A COP with no understanding of fire departments. 5th another political hack who advocates cutting staffing levels 30% and closing 20 companies and yes would like quints (won't happen). You have more or less blamed the firefighters and officers, when the blame belongs in the laps of 2 individuals who make over $100,000 a year and don't do what they're paid to do. The mayor knows exactly whats going on, he may be a poor mayor but I'll admit he's not an idiot but he chose the commissioners, not us.
Have a nice day Larry.
[ 09-09-2001: Message edited by: FireLt1951 ]
09-09-2001, 04:38 PM #49
- Join Date
- Sep 2001
God I love this.....LARRY- YOU'RE STILL......(drumroll please.....) ........WRONG!
1. Philly's squrts neither meet the NFPA definition of quint, nor are they operable as a quint with a "main" ladder, as they have the snorkel articulated squrts. Damn Larry, you let that get by you??
-They have one 28' ground ladder, and one 14' ground ladder. Hmmmm...thats 42 feet. Well short of the NFPA requirement...Oh but wait, you have 1000 alarm brush fires....Maybe the way you do math is all screwed up....???
Additionally, PFD doctrine utilizes them as Engine companies, they do not act as quints, ladders and/or engines, they are, simply stated, an engine company with an aerial waterway. I was under the impression this whole argument was regarding quints with main ladders???
I didnt count the quint at E78 simply for the fact that it wouldnt be there if federal funds hadnt purchased it, and for the fact that it doesnt leave airport property!!! Not to mention the fact that it is not carried on the PFD's Structural Apparatus roster.
And you STILL havn't told us why you left Fire-Rescue Magazine????
09-09-2001, 05:46 PM #50
XXX SO PA, Tell you what, why don't you tell us why Larry left fire rescue magazine. But you better be right, because there will be a knock at your door from a server the very next day if you are not. Firehouse.com has madeit real clear they will provide info as needed. SO, go ahead. Tell all of us. But be very very careful!
It really is Larry!!!!! Nice threat!!!!!
To bad you had to destroy a simple question in the originators post with your inane ranting.
Quints might and might not fit in your department. Study it carefully to make sure it's operable in all sections in which you respond and if you can staff it as needed. Hope they let the firefighters make the decision and not the political hacks that usually screw things up.
Apologies to the poster for allowing Blackb16 to go so far off the post and sucking us in.
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