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  1. #41
    Forum Member FireCapt1951retired's Avatar
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    Larry, your're so full of bullsh@t, I'm surprised that it isn't coming out of your ears. Your photos showing quints in Detroit would have to be a fabrication because we simply don't have any. I know a hel@ of a lot more about the inner workings of this department than you. If you refuse to understand thats your problem, not mine! Yes quints suck now and always will!!! Now I'm done with you and you can continue to be the obnoxious person you are, along with being an embarrassment to the fire service. Bye


  2. #42
    blackb16
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    Is that all you can do is be a little spoiled brat and call names. Come up with some facts! Support your case.

    XXXX Your photos in Detroit would have to be a fabrication because we simply don't have any.

    The the photos and the link I posted is from the covers of Fire House magazine.
    http://www.ci.detroit.mi.us/fire/det...t_on_the_c.htm

    Let me guess the politicians control that too and have inserted other trucks on the cover with the word DETROIT on the side.

    XXXX I know a hel@ of a lot more about the inner workings of this department than you.

    You certainly are failing on the outer workings to make ay case at all.

    XXXYes quints suck now and always will!!!

    So why does your department that you say is so cheap add pumps, hose and water to the ladder trucks. Buy TD hook and ladders. Buy plumbed water ways, custom cabs, massive diesel engines? All of which cost a heck of a lot more than the low end rig?? YOu just bought from three different builders too!

    I KNOW! Because the FD has a lot more say that you know. Cheap is not a $600,000 ladder truck. Chicago gets two for that price.

    Adding a pump, water, hose to your ladders has not cost you any staffing. IF it has tell us how all these new rigs came in and how many guys were alid off the same time? Go ahead tell us! NONE

    It is the mayor's fault that you guys are tearing 4 year old fire trucks up so bad the manufacturers are afraid to touch them? The builders are calling yor new rigs "Death Traps".
    http://www.detnews.com/specialreport...phenletter.htm

    The maintenance division is part of the FD, so what is the excuse? Is it the Mayor's fault "guys weld like a 2 year old?"
    http://www.detnews.com/specialreport...cs/ladder7.htm
    http://www.detnews.com/specialreport...s/fwdpage2.htm
    http://www.detnews.com/specialreport.../fwdletter.htm

    Is it the mayor's fault the mechanics won't paint or address rust?
    http://www.detnews.com/specialreport...anceletter.htm

    Gret Scott man you've got one mechanic per major peiece of apparatus. "Lack of preventive maintenance" isn't the Mayor's fault it is the maintenance divisions job!
    http://www.detnews.com/specialreport...ddertowers.htm

    IF ANYONE CN READ THE FOLLOWING AND SAY THE FIRE DEPARTMENT ISN'T PARTIALLY TO BLAME SO BE IT. i DOUBT IT THOUGH
    http://www.detnews.com/specialreport...dept/index.htm

    How Detroit Fire Department officials plan to spend the additional $3.4 million the department recently received from the city.
    3 aerial ladder trucks
    2 pumping engines
    2 mini pumpers
    6 squad trucks
    11 station wagons for chiefs
    3 vans for the repair shop
    1 fuel truck
    3 utility vehicles
    1 hazardous materials truck
    1 heavy duty tow truck
    9 EMS ambulances


    PLANET EARTH COMMAND

    XXXXX You mentioned Philly's "Quints." Shows how much you know. Philly only has ONE Quint that they purchased as a trial piece- Guess what!!?? NO MORE!!! NO MORE NO MORE NO MORE!!!!

    The piece of crap quint they have now is in the shop out of service more than it is in service.

    OH, You own four according to the NFPA definition of a quint. Sorry you don't know your own fire department. Do I need to tell you which units?

    Oh maintenance. Let's read what your own guys right off the union web page say about your quints and specs:

    Philly You see how much Quint
    69 is always OOS because of mechanical problems and breaking down
    all the time. They got the quint back last week from damage
    sustained in Hurricane Floyd and it's already out of service
    because of breaking down. So if the city got more quints, maybe
    they would buy better ones. Doesn't make sense...Be safe!
    First of all, if Quint 69 had dual axles it wouldn't be out of
    service as much...

    Gee bad specs eh?????

    So the Hurricane damaged the rig. As it would any rig when abused. You bought an overweight turkey and it means quints are bad? Your other three quints are serving daily without significant maintenance issues.


    Chapter 7 Quints: 1901 that defines the minimum requirements for this special vehicle. Some of those items are:

    1,000 GPM pump
    300 gallon water tank
    40 cu. ft. of compartmentation
    85ft of ground ladders
    30 cu. ft. of storage for 2Ĺ" or larger hose

    Yep the city uses FOUR!!! LOL

    [ 09-09-2001: Message edited by: blackb16 ]

    [ 09-09-2001: Message edited by: blackb16 ]

  3. #43
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    Larry- Why were you asked to leave Fire-Rescue Magazine??? Go ahead, tell us!!!!

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    Larry- One other thing....Yes, I would like you to specify the supposed four quints that exist within the Structural Firefighting Division of the Philadelphia Fire Department.....Because simply, they don't exist!!! So yes, please, oh great one...Oh great 1000 alarm commander, please specify their station assignments and locations for me, so that I may travel there and photograph them for my collection...As I have a photo of each and every piece of apparatus that Philadelphia currently has assigned to the roster....I'll start by naming the first one....Quint 69 is located in the former quarters of Engine 69 and Ladder 26, at 82nd Street and Tinicum Avenue.

    Now, you'll probably try to be smooth and pull the "Engine 78" move on me. Well, son...That ain't gonna work- Engine 78 is the CFR crew down at Philadelphia International Airport, who's budget does not come from PFD annual budgeting!!! The payroll, station and equipment funding for E78 comes from the FAA, the Pennsylvania Dept. of Commerce, the Pennsylvania Dept. of Transportation, the Phila. Dept of Commerce and the Phila. Dept of Aviation. The equipment located at PIA isn't allowed to leave airport property for normal "everyday" runs...Box assignments, Medic runs, etc...assistance calls only, such as a request for large amounts of foam. In other words....THEY DON'T COUNT!

    Well....that about narrows it down. But I am more than sure that you'll try to once again, out-do me and everyone else here with your vast amounts of useless knowledge!! While you're at it, please enlighten us, oh great one....Why you had to leave Fire-Rescue Magazine???

  5. #45
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    Larry, you want genuine concerns? How about 4 personnel doing the job of eight? How about one piece of apparatus w/ four personnel being listed as covering multiple assignments on the same run card? These are legitimate concerns. Now granted, you would rather kill a few firemen as long as it saves some money and helps the Conference Room ISO Rating. So, you won't see these as genuine concerns. You're not a fireman, you're a number cruncher disguised as someone who cares about the fire department. Go back to the conference room and see how many firefighter deaths you can justify with your ISO Ratings and dollar savings.

    Once again, Stay Safe and don't kill any firemen.

  6. #46
    blackb16
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    The boys in Detroit can't be too against the concept of the first in rig being outfitted to address fire, they've put hose, pumps and water on their ladders for years.

    xxxx I would like you to specify the supposed four quints

    Ok, let's do more than 4 shall we??? Squrt 8, Squrt 9, Squrt 38, Squrt 43, Squrt 57, Squrt 78, airport quint and L69. All meet the definition ISO and NFPA have for quints. Gee, 8!

    Source:http://www.angelfire.com/pa4/philafiredept/enginepics/companylist.html

    XXXX Because simply, they don't exist!!!

    All the philly related sites show photos to prove it to yourself.

    XXXX As I have a photo of each and every piece of apparatus that Philadelphia currently has assigned to the roster.

    A fire BUFF wow!

    xxxx Now, you'll probably try to be smooth and pull the "Engine 78" move on me. Well, son...That ain't gonna work- Engine 78 is the CFR crew down at Philadelphia International Airport,

    Is it or isn't it a Quint? Is it or isn't it staffed and operated by the philadelphia fire department? Did you or didn't you say you only had ONE quint. That makes TWO!

    XXXX The equipment located at PIA isn't allowed to leave airport property for normal "everyday" runs.

    SO, you said PFD had ONE quint. WRONG!

    XXX In other words....THEY DON'T COUNT!

    Fell free to change the rules as you go.

    XXXX want genuine concerns? How about 4 personnel doing the job of eight?

    Where is that occuring with quints? St Lois? Richmond? Philly? Houston? Dade COunty? Syracuse, Miami? Orland, Orange County CA? Charlotte? LA County? Fort Worth? They all run quints are they doing that????

    xxxxx How about one piece of apparatus w/ four personnel being listed as covering multiple assignments on the same run card?

    Gee that is the vehicles fault or do humans fill those things out. Pray tell where???

    XXXX These are legitimate concerns.

    Not until you post where.

    XXXXX Now granted, you would rather kill a few firemen as long as it saves some money

    So where have quints killed firefighters? We can list thousands of deaths on engines and ladders. But where quints?

    So boy you've posted some big words can you back a single one up can you show a trend???? Will wait.

    SO PA, Tell you what, why don't you tell us why Larry left fire rescue magazine. But you better be right, because there will be a knock at your door from a server the very next day if you are not. Firehouse.com has madeit real clear they will provide info as needed. SO, go ahead. Tell all of us. But be very very careful!

  7. #47
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    Larry, if you deny that multiple cities have used Quints to cover the assignments of multiple pieces of apparatus w/ the staffing of one piece, then you're as blockheaded as they come (as if there was any doubt before). Like I said before, you're just an administrative bureaucrat who is on the side of the budget cutting, firemen killing politicians. Furthermore, I don't care if you believe me. The point has been made to everyone else who has been reading this forum that the current trend is to buy apparatus that can do everything, so you can buy less apparatus, staff them with less firemen, save money, and expect the firemen to do twice the work with half the personnel. Quints are not my personal preference, but I have no problem with quints as long as you staff them with twice the manpower of a traditional single piece, or run them as an engine or a truck, not both. That is all. So, continue on with your babbling, but it comes down to the trend of expecting four firemen to do the job of eight. Every single city you mentioned has used Quints as an excuse to cut the number of firemen. I'm sure you'll come up with something to the contrary, but it's just not true. Again, I don't care what you think, everyone else on this forum knows differently. Do Quints kill firemen? No, the bureaucrats (you) kill them by using Quints as an excuse to use less manpower. So keep manipulating the numbers to show what you want, but the numbers lie. You and your bureaucratic buddies kill firemen.

    Finally, I could care less about why you left Fire-Rescue, why you were ever there, if you were ever there, or if you even left it if you were ever there. Talk to Planet Earth Command about that one. Furthermore, I highly doubt Firehouse.com cares who says what about why you left (if you did), don't flatter yourself.

    Stay Safe

    Don't kill any firemen.

  8. #48
    Forum Member FireCapt1951retired's Avatar
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    XXX The the photos and the link I posted is from the covers of Fire House magazine.

    Nice try but not one of those rigs are quints. As a matter of fact the only apparatus left in service from those pictures is the platform. Gee Larry 8-10 year old pictures, nice try.

    XXX So why does your department that you say is so cheap add pumps, hose and water to the ladder trucks. Buy TD hook and ladders. Buy plumbed water ways, custom cabs, massive diesel engines? All of which cost a heck of a lot more than the low end rig?? YOu just bought from three different builders too.

    We don't pick apparatus, the Commissioner and his sweet underlings do (mostly civilians and anti firefighting cronies like you). We have no input. Just as we have no input into safety either. The commissioner has refused to let us have that input.

    XXX I KNOW! Because the FD has a lot more say that you know. Cheap is not a $600,000 ladder truck. Chicago gets two for that price.

    Yeah Larry a COP picked those out. Firefighting personnel were allowed no input. Hell we had one deputy commissioner that actually ordered rigs off the internet. We've had nothing but problems with those rigs since their purchase.


    XXX Adding a pump, water, hose to your ladders has not cost you any staffing. IF it has tell us how all these new rigs came in and how many guys were alid off the same time? Go ahead tell us! NONE

    We are still understaffed by at least 120 fiefighting positions to allow 4 personnel on each apparatus. If they used quints as they want there would be a an almost 30% cut in staffing levels. They, like you, would love to do it. The trucks do carry water and a 1" red line that is used in rescue and exposure situations when the engine has not arrived yet. The rescues have been performed on numerous occasions, the latest was 3-17-01, if not for that 1" red line the child would have perished (kudos Lt. Lauer and FF's Orzech and Riggs).


    XXX It is the mayor's fault that you guys are tearing 4 year old fire trucks up so bad the manufacturers are afraid to touch them? The builders are calling yor new rigs "Death Traps".

    The Mayor new all along the shortcomings were there, as did the commissioner and deputy commissioner. If they would get the roads fixed here we wouldn't have to drive over 2-3 foot pot holes either. Sorry, thats the firefighters fault. We can't even get oil and hydraulic fluid, again our fault.


    XXX The maintenance division is part of the FD, so what is the excuse? Is it the Mayor's fault "guys weld like a 2 year old?"

    These are civilians that were hired through the general city process not the fire department. I know it's our fault the city chose to hire ill prepared mechanics and welders.


    XXX Is it the mayor's fault the mechanics won't paint or address rust?

    Hey Larry he's got the power right and he knew of the conditions that existed. It's also the commissioners fault isn't it. I know, the firefighters and officers have all the power right. I wish!


    XXX Gret Scott man you've got one mechanic per major peiece of apparatus. "Lack of preventive maintenance" isn't the Mayor's fault it is the maintenance divisions job.

    Yeah right, the mayor and commissioners control apparatus but yeah it's the firefighters fault again. It's the administrations job to make sure that portion operates effectively and they chose to ignore it. Again the firefighters fault.

    XXX IF ANYONE CN READ THE FOLLOWING AND SAY THE FIRE DEPARTMENT ISN'T PARTIALLY TO BLAME SO BE IT. i DOUBT IT THOUGH

    Yeah it's the commissioners fault, thats his job. It's also the deputy commissioners job. They haven't earned their pay! I know it's the firefighters fault, right, even though every problem was documented and sent directly to the commissioner and his deputy.


    XXX How Detroit Fire Department officials plan to spend the additional $3.4 million the department recently received from the city.

    I won't hold my breath until they come in thats for sure. I'm still shocked that they ordered all the rigs they did but the article left them no choice the Mayors feet were held to the fire.

    It's individuals like you that gives the fire service a bad rap. Like I told you before, you'd fit into this department like a glove(anti-firefighting). Remember Larry, there's a difference between the administration and the firefighters. You can blame the Fire Department Administration but not the firefighters, which was basically what you originally stated. If they ever gave the firefighters the right to be involved, then we wouldn't be in this condition. The commissioners and deputies have been mostly civilians and politically connected idiots. 1st- Owned a beauty shop- commissioner for over 20 years, no firefighting knowledge, 2nd Commissioner was a political hack and an idiot, deputy commisioner that almost destroyed the Jackson F.D and was married to the mayor's neice and also an idiot (eventually both fired). 4th A COP with no understanding of fire departments. 5th another political hack who advocates cutting staffing levels 30% and closing 20 companies and yes would like quints (won't happen). You have more or less blamed the firefighters and officers, when the blame belongs in the laps of 2 individuals who make over $100,000 a year and don't do what they're paid to do. The mayor knows exactly whats going on, he may be a poor mayor but I'll admit he's not an idiot but he chose the commissioners, not us.

    Have a nice day Larry.

    [ 09-09-2001: Message edited by: FireLt1951 ]

  9. #49
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    God I love this.....LARRY- YOU'RE STILL......(drumroll please.....) ........WRONG!

    1. Philly's squrts neither meet the NFPA definition of quint, nor are they operable as a quint with a "main" ladder, as they have the snorkel articulated squrts. Damn Larry, you let that get by you??

    -They have one 28' ground ladder, and one 14' ground ladder. Hmmmm...thats 42 feet. Well short of the NFPA requirement...Oh but wait, you have 1000 alarm brush fires....Maybe the way you do math is all screwed up....???

    Additionally, PFD doctrine utilizes them as Engine companies, they do not act as quints, ladders and/or engines, they are, simply stated, an engine company with an aerial waterway. I was under the impression this whole argument was regarding quints with main ladders???

    I didnt count the quint at E78 simply for the fact that it wouldnt be there if federal funds hadnt purchased it, and for the fact that it doesnt leave airport property!!! Not to mention the fact that it is not carried on the PFD's Structural Apparatus roster.

    And you STILL havn't told us why you left Fire-Rescue Magazine????

  10. #50
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    XXX SO PA, Tell you what, why don't you tell us why Larry left fire rescue magazine. But you better be right, because there will be a knock at your door from a server the very next day if you are not. Firehouse.com has madeit real clear they will provide info as needed. SO, go ahead. Tell all of us. But be very very careful!

    It really is Larry!!!!! Nice threat!!!!!

    To bad you had to destroy a simple question in the originators post with your inane ranting.

    Quints might and might not fit in your department. Study it carefully to make sure it's operable in all sections in which you respond and if you can staff it as needed. Hope they let the firefighters make the decision and not the political hacks that usually screw things up.

    Apologies to the poster for allowing Blackb16 to go so far off the post and sucking us in.

  11. #51
    blackb16
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    XXXX if you deny that multiple cities have used Quints to cover the assignments of multiple pieces of apparatus w/ the staffing of one piece,

    OK< you say that is the way it is put up the proof list the places. WHO< WHAT< WHEN WHERE Is that your game make charges, claims etc and then not support them!

    One thing for sure, it wasn't any of the followng. St Louis? Richmond? Philly? Houston? Dade COunty? Syracuse, Miami? Orlando, Orange County CA? Charlotte? LA County? Fort Worth?

    xxx Furthermore, I don't care if you believe

    pUT UP OR SHUT UP. you MAKE CLAIM AFTER CLAIM WITH NO SUPPORT.

    xxxx The point has been made to everyone else who has been reading this forum that the current trend is to buy apparatus that can do everything

    Well, back on point, can a well designed quint do everything? Can it be an engine or a ladder? In St Louis and Richmond it is asked to be one or the other by SOP never both at once. It is staffed to do one or the other.

    XXX so you can buy less apparatus,

    Possibly, but certainly not always. Syracuse has more rigs with quints as does Richmond than they had before quints.

    XXXX staff them with less firemen,

    Where????????????????????????? ????????????????????????

    LESS THAN WHAT?????????????????????????? ?

    XXX save money,

    YOu don't save money buying a quint, they cost more.

    XXXX and expect the firemen to do twice the work with half the personnel.

    Where? Who, when? Some facts please.

    XXXX I have no problem with quints as long as you staff them with twice the manpower of a traditional single piece if or run them as an engine or a truck, not both.

    Why double staff? If yo run the as an engine or ladder? EXPLAIN THAT!

    XXXXcontinue on with your babbling,

    I've answered every question or at least replied to every post you've made, you hacve repeatedly ignored and or not responded. SO if you actually have any proof to support your claims than post it.

    XXXX but it comes down to the trend of expecting four firemen to do the job of eight.

    Where? What fire department with quints now has half the staffing? WHO?????

    XXXX Every single city you mentioned has used Quints as an excuse to cut the number of firemen.

    HOw many guys were on an engine in St LOuis before quints? How many NOw? How about Richmond? Did the Richmond city budget before quints offer closing two stations and laying off 50 people or didn't it? YES OR NO? Dade County's staffing is the same as it was 30 years a go per rig, Orlando, too. Fort Worth staffing is the same on engines or quints. The highest staffing on a rig in Philly is a quint. HOuston's staffing is the same on a quint as an engine or a ladder. So how mny times do you want me to prove you are a Liar???

    XXXXX I'm sure you'll come up with something to the contrary, but it's just not true.

    Then post some facts to prove your case. You can't!

    XXX everyone else on this forum knows differently.

    So maybe they can post differently, I listed the biggest quint users. Knock yourself out, prove otherwise.

    XXXX Do Quints kill firemen? No, the bureaucrats (you) kill them by using Quints as an excuse to use less manpower.

    PROOF PLEASE! Did HOuston loose two guys becausing staffing was down to three per rig or were there four guys per rig at their fatal fire? Look at the death rates, fat male firefighters die due to life style, speeding, and not wearing their gear.

    SO LET ME MAKE THIS REAL CLEAR YOU HAVE NOT SUPPORTED ANY OF THE POINTS YOU'VE MADE. I'M CALLING YOU ON ALL OF THEM! SO PUT UP OR SHUT UP pa.

    XXXXX We don't pick apparatus, the Commissioner and his sweet underlings do (mostly civilians and anti firefighting cronies like you).

    That sure makes sense, the buy the most expensive rigs that match what you already own. Yeah right. Are we suppposed to believe that. They have DFD involvement all over them.

    XXX A cop spec'd those out.

    He was so well versed that they match your old rigs to a T.

    Hey you ever going to stand up like a man and backup your claims that a reverse lay is quicker an equal to the rest of us in a forward lay????? Or are you going to run and hide on that too?

    XXXXX We are still understaffed by at least 120 fiefighting positions to allow 4 personnel on each apparatus.

    Looks like the fires are going out. The population is down 7% the fires down 20% seems to make sense to me. It works well so why fix it??? Maybe you could reduce companies and get staffing up.

    XXXX If they used quints as they want there would be a an almost 30% cut in staffing levels.

    iF YOU WENT QUINTS NO ONE IN GOVERNMENT WOULD KNOW YOU ADDED A WATER TANK TO A TOWER OR A SUPPLY BED TO YOUR LADDER TRUCKS NOW WOULD THEY?

    XXX The trucks do carry water and a 1" red line that is used in rescue and exposure situations when the engine has not arrived yet.

    So adding a real supply bed would automatically cut staffig 33%, huh? NO

    XXXX The rescues have been performed on numerous occasions, the latest was 3-17-01, if not for that 1" red line the child would have perished (kudos Lt. Lauer and FF's Orzech and Riggs).

    So you support the idea of ladder trucks havig water, pumps and attack lines????

    SO where PA says quints kill firefighters you are saying they save lives. And can support yor claim with rel life info. Dateline NBC scoured HOuston's records to find that ladders beat engies on 7% of all fires ad in 1.5% of the time people died at those fires.

    XXXX The Mayor new all along the shortcomings were there, as did the commissioner and deputy commissioner. If

    So he forbid lube and oil filters on the rigs? Wouldn't let the chief layoff mechanics to buy paint. WOuldn't let hi over staffed shops turn a wrench. WOuln't let experienced welders weld the rigs??? NO ONE IS BUYING ALL OF THIS

    XXX These are civilians that were hired through the general city process not the fire department.

    And no one from the fire department supervises them??? IS THAT WHAT YOU"D HAVE US BELIEVE???

    XXXX I won't hold my breath until they come in thats for sure.

    See how little you know about your own FD, all the rigs are already in. And have been.

    XXXX You can blame the Fire Department Administration but not the firefighters,

    OK now yopu change your story, it is not how great the DFD is it is how great the firefighters are, not the captains and egineers just the line firefighters because the rest are liars, and screwing the firefighters. I see.

    XXXXwhich was basically what you originally stated.

    Yes it was

    So what is going to be the solution? Is it hopeless? Will things get better soonas the mayor leaves?

    Seems to be you've made the best possibel case for all apparatus having the ability pto pump water, throw a ladder, sustain a rescue or save a firefighter. Why wouldn't you want a do everything fire truck versus a single task ladder or tower??


    XXXX Philly's squrts DO meet NFPA ISO.

    Nice try saying they don't! YOur rigs were not built under the current 1901 so it doesn't apply to them. ISO is based onthe NFPA 1901 standard at the time. Do they count as ladder and ladder service companies? Yes they do. Are they quints? Yes they are. Pump, hose, ladder, aerial device, and water.

    xxxxx-They have one 28' ground ladder, and one 14' ground ladder.

    There is only a three ladder NFPA requirement and a 2 ladder ISO ladder/service requirement. And they get credit towards ISO ladder credit as well. Oh you left out the folding ladder by the way. Need some sources? ISO grading schedule.

    xxxx PFD doctrine utilizes them as Engine companies, they do not act as quints, ladders and/or engines, they are, simply stated, an engine company with an aerial waterway.

    Oh so they would never actually flow water out of the water way like a ladder truck or tower? BULL. They never use athe pump to supply the boom....quintish isn't it? They'd never throw a ground ladder? Force a door, use a generator or flood light, moke ejector, air pack, salvage cover, pike pole, spare air bottle, saw,or hand light? Dang there is the whole ladder service list. They'd never use any of that stuff????? BULL

    XXXX I was under the impression this whole argument was regarding quints with main ladders???

    Really cut and paste where you read that. Towers you know Snorkles don't have main ladders either. SOme tower ladders don't have useable ladder either. Still quints or ladders.

    XXXX I didnt count the quint at E78 simply for the fact that it wouldnt be there if federal funds hadnt purchased it,

    DO you know you FD is spending millions of federal CDBG dollars every year on apparatus? So I guess none of your turcks are yours. Gosh that is dumb of you!.

    xxxx and for the fact that it doesnt leave airport property!!! Not to mention the fact that it is not carried on the PFD's Structural Apparatus roster.

    They are PFD resources, available, staffed by PFD and guess what? Partially paid for by the city per FAA rules.

    Change the rules agian maybe it will work for you.

    xxxx Quints might and might not fit in your department.

    Yeah you wouldn't want a pump or water or attack lines on the laddr it might save lives like it does in Detroit. Your situation mught want you to wait for an egine before you save lives. Your situation might dictate a need to use 8 guys and to take 6 minutes to get a ladder pipe in operation versus a quints 90 seconds with two guys. You might only want 500 gpm out of your ladder pipe versus a quints 3000 to 5000 gpm potential. You might like showing up to buildigs with ground ladders to short to do the job. Heck, they'll eventually get there. You don't ever want to put yourself in the position of joe citizen this is about saving jobs not offering the best service.

    xxxx Study it carefully to make sure it's operable in all sections in which you respond

    If your current ladder will get there, you can certainly get a quint there. If your pumper currently gets there you can certainly get a quint there. Get your design right. Don't do a Detroit or Richmond, where the rigs almost fit the community, spec them right.

    xxx and if you can staff it as needed.

    Gee, didn't this guy just say administration controls those kinds of things? YOu don't control staffing, so buy the best multi-purpose rig you can. The same guys ****ing about staffing operate some of the most time and labor intensive apparatus on earth. 8 guys for a ladder pipe, reverse lay for a ladder pipe with small hose, etc. It is just stupid to pay mre and make it harder on yourself. Don't so like Detroit and buy three totally different makes and styles of ladders in the same year.

    Above all make a great pumper first, that has a great aerial device. If you can't load hose with the ladder bedded don't buy it. If you have to use a chute don't buy it. If you have to reduce hose bed capacity don't buy it. Don't do an LA COUnty and have to open 8 doors and remove a ground ladder to load hose. Don't give up your deck gun or guns. If you can't get a real compliment of ground ladders don't but the product. If the attack lines aren't numerous and easy to access don't acquire them, if you can't carry the same amount of water as you do now don't buy it. If it won't accelerate and brake the same as your ladders don't buy it. Buy a real ladder, one that will reach everything or at least match the long ladders you use now. Define your approach and departure angles and your turn needs make the builder meet them.

    There are plenty of great quints but a lot more poorly designed ones that have lousy SOPs behind them as well.

  12. #52
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    Hmmmmm...Funny....I have a copy of the 1999 1901 right here in front of me......

    Previously stated by Larry:

    xxxChapter 7 Quints: 1901 that defines the minimum requirements for this special vehicle. Some of those items are:
    -1,000 GPM pump
    -300 gallon water tank
    -40 cu. ft. of compartmentation
    -85ft of ground ladders
    -30 cu. ft. of storage for 2Ĺ" or larger hose

    Hmmm..I guess he forgot this part:
    Section 7-3 Aerial Device:
    "The apparatus shall be equipped with an AERIAL LADDER or an ELEVATING PLATFORM with a permanently installed waterway that meets the requirements of chapter 18."

    Also stated by Larry:
    xxxOH, You own four according to the NFPA definition of a quint. Sorry you don't know your own fire department. Do I need to tell you which units?

    So originally we were discussing the NFPA definition of a quint.

    Again, by Larry:
    XXXX Philly's squrts DO meet NFPA ISO.

    Nice try saying they don't! YOur rigs were not built under the current 1901 so it doesn't apply to them. ISO is based onthe NFPA 1901 standard at the time. Do they count as ladder and ladder service companies? Yes they do. Are they quints? Yes they are. Pump, hose, ladder, aerial device, and water.

    xxxxx-They have one 28' ground ladder, and one 14' ground ladder.

    There is only a three ladder NFPA requirement and a 2 ladder ISO ladder/service requirement. And they get credit towards ISO ladder credit as well. Oh you left out the folding ladder by the way. Need some sources? ISO grading schedule.

    Funny....They are Year 2000 rigs....Is there a new NFPA 1901 since the 1999 edition?

    By Larry: xxxChange the rules agian maybe it will work for you.

    Practice what you preach Larry!!! When I proved you wrong about the Quints earlier, you pulled your "ISO" Ace card out of your sleeve-

    By Larry: XXXX Philly's squrts DO meet NFPA ISO.

    So, let's summarize:

    To meet NFPA (July 22, 1999) 1901, Chapter 7, Quint Fire Apparatus, the vehicle must have the following:

    -1000gpm
    -Aerial Ladder or Platform
    -300 gallons water
    -85' of ground ladders

    Hmmm Philly's 2000 ALF Squrts:
    -1000gpm...ok they meet that
    -Aerial ladder or platform... NO!!! Not only no, but HELL NO!!!!
    -85' of ground ladders: 28 + 14 + 8 = 50

    Oh wait...In Fallon, Nevada, the home of 1000 alarm brush fires: 28 + 14 + 8 = 775

    Therefore, in my opinion, the Philadelphia Squrts DO NOT meet the NFPA (July 22, 1999) 1901 requirements for Quint Fire Apparatus. Does anyone out there, besides Larry disagree with me??

    Oh, and Larry....you still havn't told us about Fire-Rescue!! I want to hear the story from you!! Just in case the version I heard was wrong!!! But to you, everything I say is wrong, so go ahead....tell us, and prove me wrong yet again!!!

  13. #53
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    Here is the ISO list, does it or doesn't it fit?

    2 ladder ISO ladder/service requirement.

    Here. I'll read it for you: Ladders:
    10’ collapsible
    14’ extension

    The aerial device will be 50 feet.

    As you can see it is a ladder/service company.

    XXX When I proved you wrong about the Quints earlier, you pulled your "ISO" Ace card out of your sleeve-

    Oh really?

    It is highly unlikely a year 2000 delivered rig spec'd for delivery in 2000 would meet a standard not adopted til August 1999. Oh and you left out "1-4 Application.
    This standard is applicable to new fire apparatus contracted for on or after January 1, 20" You did not spec and receive this apparatus in that time frame sorry!

    Gee I wonder when the budget year starts? Jan, July or October? NOPE July 1-June 30, that means????? The rig couldn’t have showed up the month it hit the budget but was spec’d in July 6 months before the 1999 standard went into effect in Jan 2000.
    http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=894841

    Of course we have Jack Wright photos dated 6-30-00 of the unit in service. Do you suppose you can order write the specs, get through the city, go to bid, open bids, award bids, have a preconstruction conference, make a custom chassis and, drive it to snorkel have the device installed and then add a body put it in service all within 6 months? NO, not really!

    xxxx Funny....They are Year 2000 rigs....Is there a new NFPA 1901 since the 1999 edition?

    AND you could at least be honest. All the Squrts are not 2000’s Philly official web pages says : Squrt 43 -- 2110 Market Street (Center City)
    1998 American La France/3-D 1500 GPM (Gallons Per Minute) Squrt. There are four (4) of this type. Also, there are two (2) additional Squrt --1993 Seagrave 1000 GPM (Gallons Per Minute) pumpers.

    Year 2000 huh??????

    But the ISO rules were set in 1980. There were not NFPA quint rules prior to 1999.

    I see you're still running from all the staffing cuts you claimed and deaths of firefighters by using quints. Seems funny doesn't it, Philly uses pumps on water tower but not on aerials and tpwer ladders that are also used as water towers. Can you say, Contradiction! Even broken Detroit knows water, pumps and hose should be on all rigs! IT SAVES LIVES.

    You left this out

    Chapter 6 Aerial Fire Apparatus
    6-1 General.
    If the apparatus is to function as an aerial fire apparatus, it shall meet the requirements of this chapter. If the apparatus is to function as a pumper with an aerial device, it shall meet all the requirements of Chapter 3 instead of Chapter 6.
    6-2 Aerial Device.
    The apparatus shall be equipped with an aerial ladder, elevating platform, or water tower that meets the requirements of Chapter 18.

    Do you see anything there about a ladder required????

    YOu also left out by choice:

    7-7.1 Ground Ladders.
    The quint shall carry a minimum of 85 ft (26 m) of ground ladders to include at least one extension ladder, one straight ladder equipped with roof hooks, and one attic ladder. All ground ladders carried on the apparatus shall meet the requirements of NFPA 1931, Standard on Design of and Design Verification Tests for Fire Department Ground Ladders.

    Yep three ground ladders, you go them, just bought the wrong length extension. It is still and NFPA quint and aerial. As well as ISO ladder/service and ladder company.

    Funny, you have the pump, water, hose, aerial device and because they bought three ladders that don't match NFPA you want out of the aerial/quint definition. A $200 dollar differnce in cost. It looks and smells like a quint and an aerial because it is! Get real!

    Oh you forgot this too: Nothing in this standard is intended to prevent the use of systems, methods, or devices of equivalent or superior quality, strength, fire resistance, effectiveness, durability, and safety in place of those prescribed by this standard, provided technical documentation is submitted to the authority having jurisdiction to demonstrate equivalency and the system, method, or device is approved for the intended purpose.

    So Phily decided a 28 foot ladder would be just as effective and possibly safer with their staffing in their application as a 35 footer. Why do you suppose they don't specify length anymore in NFPA for each ladder? So you the FD can determine what is effective in your town.

    I like your math though extension roof and attic ladders are required. I noticed now you are counting the attic ladder you said wasn't there.

    Attic ladders are 8 or 10 feet so 75 feet left.

    Foof ladders are 14 or 16 foot to fit a pumper body. that leaves say 64. No one makes a ladder that will fit a pumper body that is 64 or 62 feet. You could get a 35 or 40. Just because NFPA did the math doesn't make it right. The longest ISO roof ladder and still the longest commonly manufactured is 20 feet. So now we need a 58 foot ladder. See, still doesn't make sense, does it? Ok how about a 16 foot combo ladder versus an attic ladder and a 20 foot roof, still need a 48 foot four fly extension, not gonna happen or fit. See Philly chose a 28 ovr a 35. That portion of the srtandard does not make sense, of corse they probably did not see the standard prior to the publishing. They simply copied what they had before, right.

    [ 09-09-2001: Message edited by: blackb16 ]

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    Larry, you're not listening, are you? Here, I'll type it slowly for you ... you and the rest of your bureaucrats are cutting staffing, and risking/taking FF's lives by fixing numbers. Any real fireman knows that YOUR NUMBERS LIE. Hence, we won't find any published numbers that support the truth. Therefore, in your fantasy numbers world, you always win. Fortunately, the real firemen in the real world - the ones actually fighting the fires - know the real truth. So keep trying to kill us, and we'll keep fightin' the fires. In the meantime, you'll keep coming up with fixed numbers that are your "proof." Come with us Larry and join the real firemen. Maybe you'll learn something then about how things really work.

    You and Planet Earth Command have peaked my interest though. You w/ your idle threats, and Planet Earth Command with his inquiries...so were you asked to leave Fire-Rescue? If so, why? Please Larry tell us! Planet Earth Command - any theories? Oh no! Wait, Stop! Tumblin' Tumbleweed Larry is going to get his bureaucrats together and sue you! Look out!!!!

    Stay Safe, and don't kill anyone Larry!

  15. #55
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    xxxxxxxXXXX Any real fireman knows that YOUR NUMBERS LIE.

    And what numbers would those be????

    xxxxthe rest of your bureaucrats are cutting staffing,

    Well you better get used to it,There will always be someone over you. Your hate of the guys above will just screw you your entire career.

    xxxxx and risking/taking FF's lives

    Firefighters deaths are at an all time low. So what are you talking about. So are fires. Chiefs always risk firefighters lives, everytime they send and equip a crews to go inside. Get a clue bud. The data suggests you are very wrong.

    You continuely run from every matter of fact statement you make and can't support a single post with facts. Pretty typical with you though.

    xxx Hence, we won't find any published numbers that support the truth.

    A big conspiracy to kill firefighters. Let me see running over a guy backing up is the chief's fault and was hidden. A hlaf dozen heart attack recently are all because of quints, air planes and helicopters falling out of the sky are the chiefs, fault. You can't recall the last interior firefigher death due to anything but stupidity or heart attacks. GO ahead name one.

    xxxx You w/ your idle threats,

    Come on big boy buff get some balls and start talking, everyone will know your name before the weeks is out.

    Put up or shut up buff!! All talk no action.

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    hehehehehehehehehe....Boys I think we're starting to get to him!!!! Hey Larry......Those years you have, listed off Philly's official web site.....Did you bother to learn that Philadelphia classifies the year of their rigs by the year that the money to purchase it was appropriated??? Hence, an engine that may have been built and delivered in 2002 may be labeled as a 2000 for the city's purposes!!!

    xxxxCome on big boy buff get some balls and start talking, everyone will know your name
    before the weeks is out.

    Put up or shut up buff!! All talk no action.

    Well, Larry.....I have been asking YOU all this time to explain yourself, and you have constantly ignored the issue, or the few times you have addressed it, you have danced completely around it!!! So....why don't YOU get some BALLS and start talking!!! Why don't YOU explain to everyone what I already know!!!! Why don't you tell us?? Are you afraid of something?? Obviously this is a touchy subject for you!!! Have I struck a nerve??? So if you continue to dance around the issue, why dont you at least explain why you are doing so???

    Everyone may know my name by the week's end, but you know what??? I'd be willing to bet that they'd all have their checkbooks out to help me pay for an attorney to defend myself against the vicious ISOSLAYER!!!!!

  17. #57
    blackb16
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    PLANET EARTH COMMAND

    xxxxx Did you bother to learn that Philadelphia classifies the year of their rigs by the year that the money to purchase it was appropriated??? Hence, an engine that may have been built and delivered in 2002 may be labeled as a 2000 for the city's purposes!!!

    Oh I see. The funds were appropriated no earltier than July 1 2000 because that is when the 2000 budget year began. The city took delivery and had the unit in service by
    June 30th 2000. Not bad get the rigs before the budget yeafr started. The followng link will show you Jack Wright photos dated and copyrighter to prove it.
    http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=894841

    So the only conclusion, YOU ARE AN ABSOLUTE LIAR.

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    Well Larry....All I have to say is contact the City of Philadelphia Department of Appropriations, at 215-686-1776. Ask for the vehicles section, and then for the sub section responsible for police & fire purchasing. Then perhaps you'll retract your statement calling me a liar. In the meantime, get a spine and tell us about Fire-Rescue Magazine!!! The more you avoid it, the more you dance around it...The more all these kind people will suspect ill of you...(Oh but wait.....They already think ill of you!!!!) What do you think, Folks???? I have only asked Larry no less than 5 or 6 times to explain the situation with Fire-Rescue Magazine.....I have either been ignored totally, or threatened with legal action. Well, he can only get me with his sharks if I say something out of context....Larry knows what happened....I (think) I know what happened....And if what happened IS what I understand to have happened, then that explains Larry's refusal to discuss the matter at all!!!!! I will say nothing further regarding the matter. These posts have only proven what we all have known time and time again....That Larry is a poor, poor looser. When someone challenges anything he has to say, he immediately launches into a tirade about how HE is RIGHT and the other person is WRONG and DAMN them for challenging the great ISOSLAYER!!!!

    Now, I admit, I have been childish this whole time, but you know what folks....It has been a ****load of fun getting under Larry's skin!!!! Think of all the times he has made all of us wretch with his tirades and rantings....Well, I for one had a grand time getting revenge!!! So HOW ABOUT IT LARRY????? HERE'S MY CHALLENGE TO YOU!!!! EXPLAIN THE SITUATION REGARDING FIRE-RESCUE!!! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH??? DO YOU HAVE THE BALLS??? WILL YOU GET A SPINE??? Or will you just ignore the situation once again as you have all along; or dance around it by threatening to send your sharks after me???

    I am done folks.. I have presented evidence on my own behalf, even posted phone numbers for the City of Philadelphia for the Great one to call and confirm my "Lie." In a post earlier, I posted evidence that first we were discussing NFPA requirements, and then dummy pulled out his "ISO Ace Card" from his sleeve and changed the argument!!!! Well, I am done. No more from me. But my challenge to the great ISOSLAYER still stands....Prove me wrong yet again, Oh great one!!!

    PS- If you do send your sharks after me, Maybe Jim Page, Esq. can defend me??!!

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    Larry, I thought the last post was simple enough ... apparently not.

    It is a fact that firemen die. It is a fact that politicians and gov't officials cut staffing of fire departments, and using Quints is one way that they do it. They cover their tracks w/ numbers so you can't prove that their doing it. Call it a conspiracy, call it whatever you like. You said it yourself, staffing is the same for a Quint or an engine or a ladder. Well, when you replace an engine AND a ladder with ONE Quint ... I think we have a winner, Johnny!!! It ain't rocket science, but you and your firemen killing bureaucrats have made it out to be so no one can prove otherwise. The bottom line is, firemen are dying. Short staffing - partially due to the use of Quints - isn't part of the solution. So, if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. There you go Larry ... you're part of the problem. As for interior firemen dying from whatever the reason ... can you prove that it wasn't due to decreased staffing? Can you prove that it had nothing to do with it? Once again, part of the problem. Keep justifying your existence w/ fixed numbers so you can sleep at night. I'm laying it out on the table. I'm not running from anything. As for getting used to politicians and bureaucrats killing firemen ... (A)None of us should ever get used to that. We will never give up the fight. (B) I'm a volunteer (I thought we established that already?) therefore, the actions of the firemen killing bureaucrats have no effect at all what so ever on my career.

    Speaking of career ... are you going to tell us what happened to yours? If you don't tell the truth, can we sue you? Or maybe we'll sue you for killing firemen. How 'bout that?

    Stay Safe and don't kill anyone Larry

  20. #60
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    To the person who started this question. What type of area are you protecting? that is going to dictate what you NEED. What is your staffing like? That will dictate if you can utilize a quint to its max. Don't let the big city arguments influence your decision. The volunteer station I run with has a 1989 LTI 75', 1250gpm, 400gal., 1100' 4" supply line. We also have an engine and a Cascade, command post. We run with another station on all runs unless its mutual aid then it single station. In our local the quint runs frist out on all structural responses, the engine is first out on all others. The engine company has 2 engines. on average we get out quint out and they get their engine out. The other pieces usually come out reduced crew mainly for manpower.
    We have the engine either lay out or pick up the supply lin the quint laid at the hydrant and then their crew come forward and utilizes all tools off of our quint. It has 3 1 3/4" attack lines and 2 2 1/2 blitz lines. Plenty of water for residential and a good start on large commercial. It works for us and it might or might not work for you. You said you get 15 guys within the first 8 minutes, you could street th e quint and the engine easily. Unlike the big city staffing concerns that is plenty of manpower for the average residential fire. Our district is 60 % SFD's, 20% apt. complexes, 10% Rowhomes and projects, 10% commercial. We run first alarm mutual aid to all the surrounding towns with our quint. Our mutual aid system works great, we all back each other up. When you need manpower the system can get 50 guys in a hurry. Just remember spec the truck for your area, we did and I can't imagine riding a stick with no pump. It leaves you so many options upon arrival. Ours is 12 years old with no problems yet knock on wood, and when we replace it, it will be another quint with even more options.
    w

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