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The idea of replaceing our engine and ladder and getting a Quint has recently come up at during a meeting. I am aposed to the idea because I don't believe that a quint can truly fill the void of 2 trucks. By doing this it will only leave us with an engine and a quint, not 2 engines and a ladder. I feel that swaping out a ladder for a quint is a good idea, but I need to be convinced about the other idea.
Any comments are welcome.
Quint=same amount of manpower (per piece of apparatus)=twice as much work for same amount of manpower=half assed job on both ends. Can a quint go everywhere your engine can go? In a lot of places, the truck can't get into a lot of places that the engine can. Will this cause a problem? I believe St. Louis had a big problem with that. Plus, there are guys who want to ride the truck, and there are guys who want to ride the engine ... why make both of them do something they don't want to do? An engine guy may not have his heart in truck work and vice versa. Mutual aid - if the truck goes on mutual aid, all of a sudden, first due area is w/out fire protection. These are just a few things to consider. Financially, it's better for the immediate future. In the longrun ... doubtful.
Stay Safe
[ 09-06-2001: Message edited by: PA Volunteer ]
From the command post: A REAL ladder truck does not have a (waste of compartment space) pump. A REAL ladder truck has TWO steering wheels.
That is all.
I am not going to get into the whole truck shouldn't have a pump issue but I will say that I agree with MBFDk5. A quint while it may be a useful piece of equipment does not replace both an engine and a ladder, especially in a smaller fleet. This concept was tried in my department a couple years ago as a trial and while the quint has worked out ok, it has become apparent that we still have a need for 2 additional engines- especially if you have areas with no hydrants. I can't imagine our quint drafting from a pond :rolleyes: . PA Volunteer brings up some valid points about taking 2 pieces and replacing it with one- we have had some problems with our quint on mutilple ocassions and if there was only that and the engine, there would have been a period of 6 months in the last 3 years that we would have only had one engine to cover our town. The quint is a good concept but is not the cureall solution.
[ 09-06-2001: Message edited by: Ross Johnson ]
In my station we have an engine and a quint, if I had my choice I would take the quint every time hands down. We have a small town with small streets and our quint can go everywhere the engine can go. Not to mention the fact that a quint can do every job an engine can. Then theres the manpower shortage point. If there isn't enough men to get the truck out after you respond with the engine what do you do for a stick other than wait for your mutual aid? If you have quint you have a stick there if it is needed for a quick rescue or master stream. As far as the if it goes out of service bit, what if your engine and ladder go down, still the same problem. not probable but just as if your quint goes down so could those. My vote obviously is buy the quint.
The question is, Quint instead of engine and truck. Engine and Truck combined can carry twice the amount of manpower than the Quint alone.
Quint alone=half the manpower, same amount of work.
Oh, and what if every piece of fire apparatus w/in a 50 mile radius goes out of service? I'll still take my chances that two pieces have to go out of service in order to be without fire protection.
Engine and Truck together beat a Quint alone anytime, anywhere. If you don't know that, then I'm glad I don't live in your town.
Stay Safe
[ 09-06-2001: Message edited by: PA Volunteer ]
No Way quint"""
You need manpower more than truck power 90% of the time and to drive a quint you allmost need 2 drivers 1 for ladder opps and 1 for pumper. And the way most citys cut backs on firefighters only have 3 men to a truck. So your first due quint has 3 firefighters the officer takes over IC the other 2 opp the truck and nobody is fighting the fire.
If you have the manpower there great because you have one less truck to get in the way.
I have been a driver for allmost 20 years on both and Engine Co. And a Truck Co. and from a stageing point of view they are very different.
We have had a squirt for some 7 years now and I find it hard? Do I hit a hydrant or do I go in front of sceen as a ladder co...
I guess if we look at the department who is asking the question, they have a whopping 2 structure fires a month. So how many of those require a stick or even an attack line?
Odds are whatever you use wouldn't be noticed.
XXXCan a quint go everywhere your engine can go? In a lot of places, the truck can't get into a lot of places that the engine can. Will this cause a problem? I believe St. Louis had a big problem with that.
Hmmm, I guess that is why St Louis has bought two generations of quints instead of engines? They don't want to go evrywhere? I wonder why St Louis hasn't burnt down yet?? I guess there is no way to have a pumper that will turn with an engine...yes there is.
XXXPlus, there are guys who want to ride the truck, and there are guys who want to ride the engine ...
Half firefighters, what a concept. Not what is best for the citizens, what is best for the firefighter... cool concept.
xxxwhy make both of them do something they don't want to do
Yeah, if you expect someione to earn their pay check then what will happen next???
xxxAn engine guy may not have his heart in truck work and vice versa.
Fire him.
xxxMutual aid - if the truck goes on mutual aid, all of a sudden, first due area is w/out fire protection
If the existing ladder goes MA isn't the town in the same boat?
xxxFinancially, it's better for the immediate future.
How's that? A simple ladder and pumper will cost less than a quint.
xxx: A REAL ladder truck does not have a (waste of compartment space) pump. A REAL ladder truck has TWO steering wheels.
Yep there's some stoneage thinking. Tractor drawn aerials are not the most manueverable ladders, compartment space is a function of design, most TDA's don't have the storage of a SS. Certainly Philly's quints aren't anything to copy or anything special.
A quint while it may be a useful piece of equipment does not replace both an engine and a ladder, especially in a smaller fleet
Why not?
***I can't imagine our quint drafting from a pond
There are lots out there with better ISO rating than you, that draft better and faster than your pumper.
xxxxbut is not the cureall solution
And whatis?
xxxI would take the quint every time hands down. We have a small town with small streets and our quint can go everywhere the engine can go.
Impossible! What did you do spec it for your town and your needs???
XXX. Engine and Truck combined can carry twice the amount of manpower than the Quint alone.
I guess that depends on how many seats each has and weather ayone shows up to man or fill all the seats or either rig doesn't it?
xxxxQuint alone=half the manpower, same amount of work.
Not if you double staff the rig. You know everyone get on the quint.
xxxxI'll still take my chances that two pieces have to go out of service in order to be without fire protection.
I'll do the math for you ladder engine engine. Becomes quint and a engine. That is two pieces, so they are taking the same hard chance you are. On two fires a month, most of which neither rig is needed.
xxxEngine and Truck together beat a Quint alone anytime, anywhere.
Really??? A quint can get a ladder pipe in operation faster than any two piece company, A quint can carry more water than the Two Piece Company TPC, more nose, more firefighters, and iscertainly more flexible...isn't it all about design???
xxxxIf you don't know that, then I'm glad I don't live in your town.
You ever wonder why over 50% of the Class 1 FD's in the US use quints??? I wonder why they all experience muck lower fire loss rates, lower life loss too? Opps I'm sorry, facts.
xxxxYou need manpower more than truck power 90% of the time and to drive a quint you allmost need 2 drivers 1 for ladder opps and 1 for pumper.
Huh?
I guess that is why Houston is going 100% quint. Engine Capt, eng and FF Ladder FF, Capt Operator. Quint Eng, capt, ff ff ff ff
Let's do the math the TPC arrives with how many people to fight fire? 4 the drivers stay with the rigs. First in only 3 The quint has 5 and or 4.
xxxxWe have had a squirt for some 7 years now and I find it hard? Do I hit a hydrant or do I go in front of sceen as a ladder co...
We've had them for 25 years, we find it really easy. If a quint is always first then you've always got the front of the building. Of course you lay a line from a perfectly good hydrant. Sop defines the role of the rig, crap in crap out right?
Amazing, I bet these samearguments were heard when the fire service went from single task apparatus to double to the triple combination apparatus of today. Quads and quints work just fine all accorss the country.
Here in my city thats what they are hoping will take hold . Due away with the engines and go to all quints. thank god our union is fighting them.. Loose too much man power good way for the city to cut back on personal in our city
First of all, relax. This isn't a personal attack.
Second of all, in case you missed it the first time, my name says PA .VOLUNTEER
This question sounds like it's coming from a volunteer company, hence I answered it that way. If I'm wrong, take it out of my pay. So, I'll just disregard your comments regarding firing, paychecks, half firefighters, blah, blah, blah. You see, in the volunteer service, if you do little things like make your firefighters happy, you get a lot more manpower.
St. Louis - yes, they have had problems. They've obviously been able to overcome them, but they've had problems. Are you suggesting that everything that's been done twice in the fire service has been the correct thing to do?
FDNY? DCFD? Biggest fire load in the country ... quints? No.
Okay, sorry, missed the TWO engines and a truck, thought it was just one engine. Fire me.
That's all for now. I'm not going to sit here and repeat everything I've just said. Engine and Truck combos work in plenty of places (FDNY), and I'm sure Quints work in plenty of places (St. Louis) or else no one would be using them.
So Blackb16, are you LHS* in disguise?
XXXX So, I'll just disregard your comments regarding firing, paychecks, half firefighters, blah, blah, blah.
I see everyone only does what they want to do at a fire. Very cool.
XXXX see, in the volunteer service, if you do little things like make your firefighters happy, you get a lot more manpower.
So with everyone chossing what they like , don't like, want to do don't want to do, you must run what 30 per rig so you can get one guy who likes to pick up hose or throw a ladder. Must be fun on a fire ground.
XXX Louis - yes, they have had problems.
Like???
XXX sly been able to overcome them, but they've had problems.
Such as? Turning? NO! Their 50 and 75 foot quints out turned the engines they replaced by over 5 feet. The quints had the same overall length as well, so what are you talking about?
XXXX Are you suggesting that everything that's been done twice in the fire service has been the correct thing to do?
You sit there and tell us St Louis rigs can't get where their engine got. Where is your proof? Did yo ever see the engines sitting behind the quints? They were huge had 22 degree turn axles. They just got rid of them. Gerner and Shafer would like to know where you get your info as would I.
XXXFDNY? DCFD? Biggest fire load in the country ... quints? No.
Can you support a single fact? DC is bigger than LA in fire load, and Philly and Chicago and Dallas, and Houston and San Antonio??? NO!
XXXX I'm not going to sit here and repeat everything I've just said.
That is because you canot support your arguments with facts. Comparing a 2 fire run a month town to FDNY.
XXX Engine and Truck combos work in plenty of places (FDNY),
They were used in FDNY as well when they really had lots of STRUCTURE fires not just RUNS.
XXXX and I'm sure Quints work in plenty of places (St. Louis) or else no one would be using them.
Well, St Louis didn't invent them, Syracue had them by a decade and still uses them well.
Blackb 16 sure looks like Larry to me. He has many AKA's :rolleyes:
I will chime in for all my St. Louis peeps.
St. Louis has 30+ quints and 4 "real" ladder trucks in 30+ firehouses in a city that isn't that large geographically. There are hydrants every half block, so drafting isn't an issue.
Im not advocating quints over traditional trucks, but SLFD is very aggressive, and they use them very well.
If you are volunteer, take a course in municipal politics. I guarantee they didn't poll the FF's to see which truck they want to buy.
They have a different local, so I don't know what role they play in it, but if you have a choice of working for the FD and riding a quint, or digging ditches or even worse working private EMS, I'm riding the quint.
But hey, everyone's area is different, so what works here dosen't have to work there. Traditional trucks are great if your city will still buy them, i'm all for it.
BTW, Schafer is now the Fire Chief in the city I live in. Gee, I wonder if they will be gettig new quints???????????????????????
:p
The feed back so far is great, but I think what MBFDk5 is really looking for are statistics that can be cited/referenced.
Blackb16 certainly has a lot to say about the topic, but as far as I can tell it's just opinion. Blackb16 can you site some sources that support your 'facts'? Even citing your personal experiences with a quint, or switching from an engine and a ladder to a quint would be helpful.
What are needed are facts and experiences, not opinions, so that an informed and educated decision can be made relating to this change.
Remember there is more than just the issue of quint vs. an engine vs. a ladder.
Can you get the same amount of people to the scene to support operations using a single truck vs. an engine and a ladder?
What kind of risk are you taking replacing two with one in terms of down time due to apparatus repair?
Can the quints really get into the same places that an engine can? If so, what types (make, size, etc.) are more successful at doing this?
Are any of you experts on ISO? What would their take be on this in terms of assigning an ISO rating?
For those of you using quints, how many people are really needed to operate the truck effectively?
Remember this topic is not about trukies vs. nozzle heads... but rather a department looking for advise on a potential change to their operations. And by the way, it doesn’t really matter weather a department has 30 fires or 2 per month, there is still the need to have the correct apparatus to fight the fire and protect lives.
-Captk4
I know this is always a spirited debate, but I think some of you guys are also guilty of apples to oranges, and others are letting their predjudices show.
1) Spec the truck for the town. A quint doesn't NECESSARILY have a greater turning radius than an engine. Then again, it could be so long it won't even fit in the station. BTW, my old dept went with a quint over a TDA because the TDA wouldn't fit in the house!
2) Weight is also a factor - we used the quint in the "town" part of the district - it didn't roll to the "country" part (rural) unless we knew it was (a) an elevator/silo, or (b) it was special called. Too many long gravel driveways and low weight bridges to get it into position. Then again - sometimes the ENGINE couldn't make it up the drive, either!
3) SOPs make a huge difference. Example: District 1 (town) first due commercial or multi-occ box was the quint - for both truck and engine work! 2nd due was E-1 (same house). The quint had 8-man cab (and district 1 had 25 active members, 10 of which owned businesses in the town, so responded even on daytime runs). Not uncommmon to have 1 OIC, 1 driver, 2 FF for attack, 2 for vent/search, and 2 for RIT. Of course, one might be "late" since he'd also have to catch the hydrant, but they were close, so no biggie. Also not uncommon to tell 1 guy to get off and drive E-1 for water supply.
Then again, in district 3 (next up the road, but suburban sprawl w/sparse hydrants, first due was E-3 (5 man Seagrave), quint was a "truck-only", and E-1 was water supply. Not uncommon to have 1000' hose lays in dist. 3.
Dist. 2 was total rural. For a res. structure, the box was E-2, E-3 (water supply), E-1 (manpower - station 2 only had 4 or 5 guys who responded there) and 2 tankers (no hydrants - shoot, no water period! farmers all had wells and water was either drive to district 3 or draft from a stock pond). Grass rigs (for access up bad roads/driveways) or the quint (for elevated stream) were both "special calls", not on the card.
BTW, I drove the quint many times over the years. It would go anywhere E-3 would go, and most places E-1 would go. The exceptions were low weight bridges (all but 2 on private drives) because it weighed 56,000# where the pumpers were 42,000# (E-1) and 47,000# (E-3) and narrow residential streets in the really old part of the town. And there it wasn't the streets, or turning the corners - it was the cars parked on both sides of the road! :mad:
The extra length made it impossible to do the 'zig-zag' without scratching the sides on the parked cars.
BlackB16- You mentioned Philly's "Quints." Shows how much you know. Philly only has ONE Quint that they purchased as a trial piece- Guess what!!?? NO MORE!!! NO MORE NO MORE NO MORE!!!! Guess what they bought MORE of?? Thats right!! REAL LADDER TRUCKS!! With NO WASTED COMPARTMENT SPACE, and TWO STEERING WHEELS!!! In fact, I just heard that they bought 2 more!!!
The piece of crap quint they have now is in the shop out of service more than it is in service.
PA Volunteer- It can't be old blowhard Larry. The person didn't once mention those tubs of **** out there in Tumbleweed, Nevada. Larry can't type three sentences without once mentioning those things.
xxxx but as far as I can tell it's just opinion.
Could you give an example of an opinion I've given on the topic? It can't be about St Louis, they have purchased 70 quints in 15 years. Their town has not burnt don yet. There are more ISO Class 1's with quints than without. Could it be quint turning? No Pierce puts out a video of a TDA against a straight stick and the big city guys couldn't go where the quint went, ever!!!! It can't be the math examples or mutual aid examples I gave. Could you be referring to, the cost of an engine and ladder truck? One magazine lists the following for stock rigs $124,000 ladder $325,000 That is $449,000..Two other magazines show quints at $475,000, seems less. Could you be referring to drafting? There are 7 quints soon to be 8 in Spring, Texas that can get a draft in less than 15 seconds with one guy or lift water out to 400 feet from the rig with 60 foot lifts. In MBFD's case, they rely at best on a two firefighter 3 mionute operation to get a draft(go look at their web page. They have 15 cubic feet more storage space than an LA County TDA. They can out turn Philly TDA or LA County's, why? Wheel base of the tractor is excessive on the big city rigs. They even carry more LDH. If you are referring to the design of the apparatus is what matters, can a simple quint carry 1/2 mile of 5 inch hose? Yes I know where 11 rigs are that do just that. Do they have to give up compartment space? Depends on the design. I know where there is 400 to 600 cubic feet of storage. Can they carry as much water as a pumper? I can think of a half dozen quints with 1600 to 2500 gallon water tanks. Can a quint with four people get a ladder pipe in service faster than a two piece company staffed with 9 guys? Working fire has a tape that shows the quint beating the TPC by 3 minutes. Flowing three times the water. Could it be
insurance losses per ISO rates? Nah, here is the chart:
Loss per $1000 valuation
Class Commercial Residential
1 $0.25 $0.37 6 $0.45 $0.55
2 $0.30 $0.37 7 $0.55 $0.75
3 $0.35 $0.42 8 $0.60 $0.78
4 $0.37 $0.45 9 $0.68 $0.79
5 $0.38 $0.49 10 $0.85 $1.10
So ISO Class 4 FDNY has a $250,000 house fire the loss will be versus Class 1 Dubois, PA VFD versus LA County ISO Class 9 would look like this: $112 vs $92 vs $197. Where do you want to live when you have your fire? If you saw NBC news Wednesday or see MSNBC's web page you'll see insurance rates are up as much as 25 to 33% in the US. Could it be the staffing differences? One guy gets off at the hydrant, one guy is IC, one guy is pump operator. That means a 3 man company has nobody fighting fire the first 3 to 5 minutes, doesn't it? The ladder shows up one guy is the engineer gee two guys can fight fire or search. A Quint with the same staffing and same operation would have at least 3. That's more right?
OPINIONS PLEASE SHOW ME SOME???
xxxxcan you site some sources that support your 'facts'?
26 years of use of quints, bought 11 in the last year will have something to do with another 51 this month.
XXXX Even citing your personal experiences with a quint, or switching from an engine and a ladder to a quint would be helpful.
We run dual purpose quints and staff for both functions. We certainly carry more equipment than an engine and ladder combined. As long as the rig is designed to be a great engine it will perform just fine. The quints fight 90% of their fires outside of the hydrant district without any problems.
xxxx What are needed are facts
FAMA says over the last 5 years quints are second to engines in total sales of all types of fire apparatus.
xxxx Remember there is more than just the issue of quint vs. an engine vs. a ladder.
Like?
XXX Can you get the same amount of people to the scene to support operations using a single truck vs. an engine and a ladder?
Like I said earlier, it depends on what you spec and what you currently have. We can bring ten to 12 on a quint. MBFD's FD has a 5 man cab on the ladder and five seats on the engine to be replaced. Will a ten man cab do the same job as two 5's??? Yes!
xxxx What kind of risk are you taking replacing two with one in terms of down time due to apparatus repair?
In a two fire a month department? Odds are the two older rigs are less dependable than anew one. A 16 year old non-aspirated Ford tilt cab versus a modern chassis? No comparison. An undersized single axle under neath, geesh the braking must suck, expedially on ice and snow oh, no engine brake. The engine is a plain jane 20 year old rig. A ladder with a 200 lbs tip load supported or above 60 degrees only with a great track record of failure versus today's standard of 500 plus at any angle and depending who they buy from the possibility of no aerial failures ever.
xxxx Can the quints really get into the same places that an engine can? If so, what types (make, size, etc.) are more successful at doing this?
I guess step one is what are the turn radius the rig has to make. If you don't define that you'll never know. We don't have a single street a quint can't do its thing. The next poster doesn't have any problems.
xxx Are any of you experts on ISO? What would their take be on this in terms of assigning an ISO rating?
If you have a crappy ISO rating like 66% of the fire service, not much. The average Vermont Fire Department (MBFD's neck of the woods) has a Class 7.3. SO no matter what they would buy would improve not hurt things. If you have a great ISO rating it might cost you worst case 2.5 points in pumper credit, 0.6 points in distribution, and 0.2 points in divergence for a total of 3.3 points. But, then again, there are more Class 1's with quints than without.
For those of you using quints, how many people are really needed to operate the truck effectively?
xxxxit doesn’t really matter weather a department has 30 fires or 2 per month,
Sure it does. You're not going to have excessive maintenance, you're not going to run the wheels off the rigs, small area smaller challenges, like I said earlier would anyone even know there was a change with so few calls?
XXX there is still the need to have the correct apparatus to fight the fire and protect lives.
I'm not sure that is a goal of the US fire service. Maybe in voice but not is action. Why do 1/3 of the fire departments not have the ability to operate and sustain one fire stream? Why do 70% of the FD's only score 30% on their adhearance to minimum national standards? Why is it only 2.6% of the FD's even score 70%? 38% of the FD's don't even score. The best state in the nation only averages a 50% score. Why are the death rates as much as 20 times higher in some parts of the country and 5 to 10 times higher in adjoining states? Could it be a lot of FD's are clubs?
XXXHere in my city thats what they are hoping (quints)will take hold . Due away with the engines and go to all quints. thank god our union is fighting them.. Loose too much man power good way for the city to cut back on personal in our city.
Is it fair to say your FD is so broken anything would be an improvement? How much bad press can a city take before somebody does something constructive? Reverse lay small hose fire department. 99% of the folks resding this don't use reverse lays every fire or small supply line. Reverse lay is synonymous with slow water isn't it? Small supply line is synonymous with small water too! Wouldn't anything new be better than the crap you run? ith 23% less structure fires today than a decade ago why shouldn't the size of the FD match the fire volumne? Residential calls are down 33%. Fire death rates are unchaged over the decade even though the FD has gotten worse. Overall death rate is better than half the states in the US. Your population is down 7.5% over the last decade. Wouldn't quints put more firefighters in firefighting positions than the a TPC?
Thanks for all of the replies. My major concern is that I do not feel it is a good idea to include the sale of our second engine in the justification for replacing our ladder for a quint. The quint will be the definite choice to replace our aging ladder (next fiscal year). But I do not feel that we would be moving in the right direction by including the engine sale in the equation. My doubts remain that by only running a quint as the second due out (and not sending a engine as the third) that we will be losing the effectiveness of the company operations.
The members are trained to do both nozzle and hook work, and they really don’t care which of the two they are doing. We operate in companies, for most calls we can count of having 15-20 firefighter responding to the station within the first 8 minutes. With that in mind, it only becomes a training issue for both company officers and crew members to effectively manage the quint as a ladder company providing search and rescue, ground ladder placement, overhaul and ventilation as well as support the company role (that the third due engine served) as water supply and suppression.
FromBlackb16: Is it fair to say your FD is so broken anything would be an improvement? How much bad press can a city take before somebody does something constructive? Reverse lay small hose fire department. 99% of the folks resding this don't use reverse lays every fire or small supply line. Reverse lay is synonymous with slow water isn't it? Small supply line is synonymous with small water too! Wouldn't anything new be better than the crap you run? ith 23% less structure fires today than a decade ago why shouldn't the size of the FD match the fire volumne? Residential calls are down 33%. Fire death rates are unchaged over the decade even though the FD has gotten worse. Overall death rate is better than half the states in the US. Your population is down 7.5% over the last decade. Wouldn't quints put more firefighters in firefighting positions than the a TPC?
I'm beginning to believe that this is LHS or the other know it all Nate Marshall.
First off understand one thing, Detroits fire department is in disrepair because of inept politicians who don't give a rats as@ about the citizens or the firefighters. They are only interested in lining their own pockets.
I'd like to know where you got your information about the number of fires in Detroit. I ask this because Detroit has not filed a true NIFIRS report in over 6 years. The number of fires we've had has fluctuated over the years and will continue to do so. I can't nor can any city predict how many fires they'll have this year or next, so oh great one, please predict the number of fires that we will have over the coming years.
I take it by some of your remarks that you agree with staffing cuts, nice going guy, you would fit into this city government like a glove.
Thank you for the compliment on the number of fire deaths (still to many). We must be doing something right, Huh.
Detroit Fire stated it exactly as it is related to this dept. They would cut staffing and go to 3 or possibly but not likely a 4 person quint, thus cutting around 4 to 5 hundred firefighting positions and approximetly 20 apparatus.
Yes we do reverse lays and I would match my crews ability to get water on the fire as fast as a forward lay.
Until you come here and watch us, which I doubt you have or ever will, you need to keep it an opinion and only an opinion. Your self righteous attitude is not appealing to anyone.
Quints here would equal much less staffing overall for apparatus and far more work per firefighter not to mention the loss of our 100' trucks for the high rise structures already here and now being built throughout the city.
As most of you may guess, I'm not a fan of quints and never will be. Does St. Louis staff all apparatus with 6-8 personnel on the quints or did they go to quints to cut staffing levels?
[ 09-07-2001: Message edited by: FireLt1951 ]
[ 09-07-2001: Message edited by: FireLt1951 ]
Thanks Lt thats what i was getting to befor we got another run. could not finish my thought