These two "so called" firefighters feel that the flag is offensive and a symbol of oppression.....
The great nation this flag represents was founded on freedom...something that many people in the world do not have!
If they feel that the flag is offensive, let them resign their positions in the Miami Metro Dade Fire Department. I feel that the problem about them not getting on the rig should have been a cut and dried issue. Get on the truck. Make it an order. If they refuse, start disciplinary action by the verbal warning. Still refuse to ride, written warning. Still refuse? Bring it to the attention of the command staff, with the recommendation of the the next step in the disciplinary system: suspension, followed by termination if they still refuse!
If having to live in the greatest nation in the world doing something I love and getting paid or the satisfaction of being able to help my fellow man to do it is considered to be oppression, oppress me more!
God Bless the fallen in NYC!
[ 09-20-2001: Message edited by: Captain Gonzo ]
Results 41 to 60 of 113
09-20-2001, 09:16 AM #41"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY
09-20-2001, 10:08 AM #42
- Join Date
- Jun 2001
- The Big Apple - U.S.A.
Absolutley nothing should get in the way of the performance of a Firefighters job. NOT EVEN RELIGION. The officer of that engine should have made other arrangements to get replacements for those two terrorists in the making. What's next, If the President is in a structure fire do they refuse to work because he represents the USA? FIRE THEIR ASSES!!!!!!!!!!
09-20-2001, 10:29 AM #43
HCTROUBLE - You must be kidding. Your applying freedom of speech and religion to this? Do you have freedom of speech and religion in your job? Can you say whatever is on your mind and not get fired? Can you take every Sunday off if interefered with church? Suppose these firefighters needed an hour each day to face east and praise allah... i suppose you'd take the company out of service? Its not about freedom, its about doing your job.
09-20-2001, 10:59 AM #44
- Join Date
- Oct 2000
I can go one better than these men refusing to go on a truck with a flag. I was at another forum this morning, and saw the following message in response to my post about this subject:
>>It's their choice I guess. That's what freedom is all about. They should just set aside a fire truck for the firefighters who don't like the flag.
I refuse to say the Pledge of Allegiance and have done so for years. I would just sit there with my arms crossed. It doesn't mean that I don't like the flag, I just will not pledge to an inanimate object and I will not say that one particular line in the Pledge of Allegiance.
I wouldn't be against displaying the flag because it does symbolize our country<<
That message might be alright if it weren't coming from a member of the U.S. Armed Forces. This girl is a Sgt. in the Air Force. Yeah, I was ****ed, I sent an email right off to the Major with JAG at her base. Talk about needing to be fired.
09-20-2001, 11:35 AM #45
- Join Date
- May 2001
What a couple of hypocrits. They come to work each day to an engine house that displays the flag. They sound like they have an axe to grind and are using this terrible event to make some sort of misguided statement. They are no better than the gas stations that decided to gouge the public in a crisis situation. I feel they have the right not to ride the rig, but no one has the right to keep the flag from flying on a public vehicle. If they decide not to ride then they should suffer the consequences just as if they had missed a fire run. Perhaps they would also like to pick and choose which runs they respond to. Defend your right to display the very symbol that provides them the religous freedom to express their views openly.
I would hate to have to run with self centered jerks like this. "It's all about me" is their attitude.
[ 09-20-2001: Message edited by: jlrandall ]J Randall
09-20-2001, 11:46 AM #46
- Join Date
- Sep 2001
- Pt St Lucie , FL.
Hello to all brothers and sisters.All except for two whom I have just disowned in my heart.
These two scum have just spit in the face of 300+ firefighters cops and ems workers. Also they have spit in the face of their wives husbands and their childern. I consider this act as bad as the act of those who celebrated when this horrible event befell our country.
Some of you speak of the right of these two scum to be able to do this.
Well these two scum decided they would only respond to an emergency on their terms, even if its may mean a delay of a few precious minutes,or a reduction of needed manpower.
If these two scum of the earth retain thier jobs it will be a slap in the face of all of us. And very saddly a slap in the face to our fallen brothers and sisters and thier families in New York.
09-20-2001, 01:22 PM #47
- Join Date
- Jul 2000
- Montgomery County, PA
I have to agree with pwc606 on the first page, here. I strongly believe in the First Amendment and the right to free speech, but nowhere are these bozos guaranteed the right to ride apparatus. They want to be firefighters, great. After all, Miami has spent how much money training them, so they may as well get their money's worth. But for cryin' out loud, throw them behind a desk - unless their beliefs won't let them enter a building flying a flag out front.
I hope these guys know that they will forever be pariahs in their own department and in the nation's firefighting community. They've made their bed. Let 'em sleep in it.Hey, stay safe.
09-20-2001, 01:38 PM #48
These low-lifes make me sick!
Here is an article from the Miami/Herald.
Published Friday, September 21, 2001
IT'S A FREE COUNTRY
Rally round the flag? Not always
BY SARA OLKON, ADRIENNE SAMUELS AND LISA ARTHUR
In an Opa-locka firehouse, two Miami-Dade firefighters take exception to the American flag flying from their truck.
In a manicured subdivision in Pembroke Pines, a white-robed effigy of Osama bin Laden swings from a tree.
Both expressions of a personal belief drew anger from some of those who saw them. But the freedom to express an opinion is at the very heart of the American Way.
Waving powerful symbols -- like the flag and an effigy of Osama bin Laden -- gives people a sense of purpose at a time of powerlessness, said Thomas Steinfatt, a University of Miami professor specializing in intercultural communication.
``There's a real frustration of not being able to get back at, or even see a way for your government to get back at, the people who did this,'' Steinfatt said. ``I think part of it is a genuine sorrow and to show oneness with the people who were killed and with the people working in the rescue effort.''
In the case of the flag, however, the symbol doesn't mean the same thing to everyone.
Miami-Dade firefighters Jim Moore and Terry Williams objected Saturday to climbing aboard a fire truck that sported a large American flag. The two are not Muslims, as had been widely reported. Their objections have more to do with seeing the flag as a symbol of oppression.
``When asked as to why the American flag was taken off the truck, Moore responded by saying that the flag was offensive to him,'' their supervisor, Lt. Michael Simon, wrote in a memo about the incident. ``Williams agreed. Moore stated that the flag was a symbol of oppression to the black man.''
Williams wrote in a statement that the incident had been blown out of proportion. He wrote that he and Moore removed the flag because it blocked their view and because of their ``political view about the country's situation.''
Steinfatt said that's not an uncommon reaction.
``Black Americans perceive a lot of areas of discrimination that are not evident to whites,'' he said. ``To some, the flag represents white America, not all of America.''
Nevertheless, in response to the incident, Fire Chief Dave Paulison ordered all county fire engines to carry the American flag as a symbol of unity, national pride and patriotism.
The American Civil Liberties Union backs the chief's decision, saying that displaying a flag on a fire truck is not the same as forcing a firefighter to recite the Pledge of Allegiance.
``While individuals certainly have a First Amendment right to an opinion, it's hard to say that the display of the American flag on the truck is attributable to every firefighter on the truck,'' said Randall Marshall, legal director for the American Civil Liberties Union of Florida.
Lawyers told the manager of a Pembroke Pines subdivision that legally they couldn't stop a homeowner from putting a display on his front lawn.
Stringing an effigy of bin Laden from a tree in front of his Pembroke Pines home seemed patriotic to Jose Gonzalez.
``We're all American; that's what's important,'' Gonzalez said. ``A lot of people in the U.S. don't know what a great advantage freedom is. The only way to really depict [how I feel about bin Laden] is to show a death.''
One neighbor, however, complained to the police.
``I'm afraid of what this will mean to my children,'' said the woman, who asked not to be identified. ``They walk to school every day past this house.''
Tom Evans, general manager of the Silverlakes subdivision where Gonzalez lives, said Gonzalez would be asked to remove the display.
``But we're not going to demand [it],'' Evans said. ``If we start demanding, it'll be an issue of freedom of speech. . . . At this time of grief and anger, we don't want to go out there and antagonize people, for the obvious reasons.''
Steinfatt said that's a genuine concern. Everyone should think twice, he said, before striking an inflammatory pose. In the cases of the firefighters and Gonzalez, Steinfatt said he defends their right to express themselves, but questions the wisdom.
``They have absolutely every right to feel that way,'' he said. ``However, it is probably not an advantageous time to be pushing that. Do you really want to assert your rights just to assert them when it is going to upset people?''
Three houses down from the Gonzalez residence, Frank Shober Jr. spent eight hours drawing a chalk mural of the Statue of Liberty, the U.S. flag and the World Trade Center's twin towers on the asphalt in front of his house.
``God bless N.Y. and D.C.,'' he wrote in block letters.
If the weather holds, Shober plans to draw a dove at the top of the mural for peace.
Shober's mother thinks the two displays on her block are ``quite a contrast, I guess.''
``Everybody's different, and they have different expressions,'' Karen Shober said.
Herald staff writer Beth Reinhard contributed to this report.
09-20-2001, 02:56 PM #49
- Join Date
- Jan 2001
Folks, I have news for you. Idiots like these have been around alot longer than last week. They are part of the vocal minority that the media and politicians have been listening to for years. Most of the time, the silent MAJORITY of Americans who think this is absolute stupidity shrugs its collective shoulders and lets quacks like these tow have their way. Only now when the good old USA is in a time of crisis do we raise our voices. We have to be vigilant ALL THE TIME in guarding American values, values that made this nation great.
[SOAP BOX MODE=OFF]
09-20-2001, 03:06 PM #50
- Join Date
- Aug 2000
- Manchester, CT
Opression???? Isn't it the United States thats given them the job they have??? If they dont like the flag, then they should go back to where the f*** they came from. And if they're from the US, they should be ashamed and move somewhere else.
09-20-2001, 03:42 PM #51
We also have a right to our religious beliefs and freedom of speech. I agree with many of you this is America. I agree they should sit or ride. It sounds to me that this is probably an issue for the "Political Bullshi_" can. The city needs to stand up for this country just as many of us do each and every day.K.A. Dempsey
"If you want to make God laugh, tell him what you are doing tomorrow"
09-20-2001, 03:44 PM #52
- Join Date
- May 2000
- DFW area of Texas
An open request to Miami-Dade
As a believer in, and staunch defender of, the US Constitution, I respectfully request that you immediately stop oppressing these people and let them continue to enjoy the freedom of speech and association guaranteed to them by the oppressive US Constitution: FIRE THEM IMMEDIATELY.
In that action, you to will show your willingness to allow these individuals to enjoy the benefits the US Constitution has provided them and you will no longer be oppressing them. They will be free to go on bantering to any halfwit commie symp person and/or reporter that will listen about how oppressive the US is while at that very same moment, the US prepares to send people to die for the sole purpose that they can continue to bitch about being 'oppressed.'
At the same time, you will be improving the effectiveness and safety of your firefighters and providing the utmost in fire protection for your community. These individuals cannot be trusted to perform their sworn duties at ANY establishment proudly displaying the American flag, even the mosques of the religion they supposedly belong to and therefore have absolutley no business being called to duty to protect anyone or anything in your community.
On their way out, please smack 'em upside the head and tell 'em mongo says (and please quote me exactly):
"Oppression? You three idiots don't know spit about oppression. Oppression happens when you're living in afganistan and you aren't muslim or in china and are a christian...
The sole purpose of the attack on America was to oppress US!"
Very Truly Yours,
[ 09-20-2001: Message edited by: mongofire_99 ]It's only my opinion. I do not speak for any group or organization I belong to or associate with or people I know - especially my employer. If you like it, we can share it, you don't have to give me credit. If you don't, we are allowed to disagree too (but be ready to be challenged, you may be on to something I'm not). That's what makes America great!
09-20-2001, 03:52 PM #53
- Join Date
- Sep 2001
- Camp Hill, Pa
As I read down through some of the responses that have been posted most of us have the same opinion, that they should sit or ride. I can not believe that anyone that is a fire fighter right now would even think of something like this. In my mind these individuals are not the true professionals and heroes that fire fighters have become over time. If I was one of the members of this fire company I don't know if I could truly feel safe going into a fire with them. Are they going to pull me out or leave me behind because i have a American Flag on my gear or on my helmet?
If they don't want to ride then they should find another job. We don't need people like that in our profession.
09-20-2001, 04:32 PM #54
Just read a story on this and here are some quotes from a Lt. "Miami-Dade Fire Chief Dave Paulison has ordered all county fire engines to carry the American flag in honor of the firefighters and police officers killed in New York in last week's terrorist attacks.
For anyone who resists now, "it's a penalty of a direct-order violation and it's going to be very, very strict. I can assure everyone that these gentlemen are going to ride the truck with the flag."
Fernandez said if the two firefighters refuse to ride when they return to work, they "will be met with severe discipline."TW
09-20-2001, 05:28 PM #55
- Join Date
- Sep 2001
- Redondo Beach, CA
Personally, I don't think that the issue of these persons freedom has anything to do with this. It is the freedom of the fire station that is being threatened here. They should be able to fly their own flag without being stopped by pressure from other groups.
Furthermore -- If some man is kicked in the balls and I wear a shirt that says I love men to counter that, that doesn't make me a man, it means I don't support evil acts toward men.
(I am a woman, actually.)
Why would anyone want to support evil? At this time and place even people in foreign countries are flying US flags, and they aren't Americans at all.
As far as religion goes, we all know that individuals typically make those kinds of choices on their own. Why are they so touchy? Does this religion considers the USA to be evil? This is not an evil country.
At this point we are even victims. They should try empathy instead of nonsense and religious truth instead of bull****.
I can think of one group, but I won't name it here that might be behind this. But as I said, individuals chose their own reactions.
09-20-2001, 05:35 PM #56
- Join Date
- Feb 2001
- des moines, ia, usa
If you dont respect the american flag enough to ride a truck that is displaying that flag, you dont deserve to even be in this country.
I'm embarrassed to say that you are in the same profession as me. All 3 are a disgrace to the uniform they wear, and dont deserve the protection or the liberties that very flag provides them with.
In my opinion, if you dont respect the flag, get out of this country.
firstname.lastname@example.org if you have a problem with that.
09-20-2001, 06:10 PM #57
After reading the updated story, it's even worse. FIRE them. I like the Chief's response too.. nice to see a Chief who's got a pair!
09-20-2001, 07:56 PM #58
I like Mongo's idea best...way to go, Mongo!"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY
09-20-2001, 08:04 PM #59
- Join Date
- Dec 1999
- Blackberry Vol. Fire Dept.
These two "gentlemen" are most likely just after attention. Somewhere in their early childhood they were deprived of parental attention and so are attempting to make up for this lack by this open disregard of our nations symbol. They apparently have no problem spending the money they earn(which has an american flag on the bills along with In God We Trust)so that throws out the religious theory. After this theory is gone and can't be argued for, what grounds does this leave our two gentlemen to refuse on? Again,a traumatic experience or lack of parental attention/affection must be the base problem here. I suggest they seek counseling, it might help or else obtain a passport and exit this great country and seek refuge with others of like mind.
09-20-2001, 08:31 PM #60
- Join Date
- Feb 2001
- Belton, Missouri, USA
I'll pitch in to buy some plane tickets to Afghanistan for these folks.
Users Browsing this Thread
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)