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  1. #1
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    Default The "NEW" Firefighter Safety Issue

    There are various articles circulating around the internet, and currently even on the top of this website about how firefighters may now think of themselves first and/or may not carry out orders the way the should be carried out for fear of their own lives. This is TOTAL rubbish. How irresposible of anyone associated with the Fire Department to say something in this vein. I will **NOT** become less aggressive or change my tactics now that this tragedy has occured, to do so would be dis-honoring our fellow firefighters and the reasons they died.
    For years our brothers and sisters have died in the line of duty fighting fires, and still we run into burning buildings. As far as I am concerned, I feel prouder to be a fireman. Prouder to be ABLE to risk my life to save my fellow man (or woman. To HELL with those that say other wise


  2. #2
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    I think that's bullsh*t. If a firefighter is worried about risking their life or second guessing going into a fire, they shouldnt be a firefighter. Im not even a firefighter yet and I understand that. I pity the people who work with a person that is second guessing going into a fire after what has happened on 9-11. I agree with you hot Damn.

    God Bless The Fallen and Their Families
    You gain strength courage and confidence by every experience in which you really stop to look fear in the face...you must do the thing you think you cannot do.
    - Eleanor Roosevelt

  3. #3
    District Chief distchief60b's Avatar
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    I agree...we CAN NOT be less aggressive...

    But..this incident should drive home the message that at any moment any of us can make the ultimate sacrifice.

    So..my advice on changing our ways...
    >Dont become complacent
    >Remember to give your family a hug each morning or night before work and say...I love you! And....make sure you are quick to let them know what is going on as soon as you can after major events.

    Otherwise...business as usual!
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
    ------------------------------
    IACOJ Minister of Southern Comfort
    "Purple Hydrant" Recipient (3 Times)
    BMI Investigator
    ------------------------------
    The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.

  4. #4
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    Gotta agree with you 100% Hot....I'd find it hard to believe that any true firefighter would show any apprehension. Those making those statements need a suit and tie 9-5'er. We're in this for the protection of lives and property, in that order. After all, we're the Fire Department, we show, we do our job. We don't stand around.

  5. #5
    MembersZone Subscriber E229Lt's Avatar
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    Hmmm

  6. #6
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    Right back at'cha Brooklyn K.
    FTM - PTB

  7. #7
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    hmmmm... I gotta disagree to some degree here. When 300 firefighters die for whatever reason, it's important to look at what happened, and to take a look at all the facts. We know very little, and certainly not enough at this point to make such rash statements as have been made.

    I think if a plane runs into a building I'm gonna be a little less agressive.

    But... my wife asked me the other day, that knowing what I do about WTC, would it change whether I went into a commercial building, and more specifically a high rise. My answer was probably not. I'm certainly going to pause a moment and think about some things I might not have thought about before (jet fuel's effects on high rise construction), but I'm still going in to do my job. I do it because I love what I do, not because of some hero mentality, or whatever.

    So, bottom line is I am going to look at the final reports when they come out, and see what happened, how did some firefighters survive? Was there something some might have done to increase those odds? Was there a point in this incident in which there was nothing left to do? When the 1st bldg collapsed, did the work of firefighters save anyone else?

    I don't have those answers, so I say, there is definitely something to be said for reflecting on devastation, just like we do when 1 or 2 firefighters die. Anyone who looks at the FF fatalities from falling off Fire Engines, and says I'm not changing, I'm gonna keep riding the backstep, because it's what I'm all about.

    Sorry, that's what some of this sounded like to me, and hopefully I made some sense in my post.

  8. #8
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    The job of a firefighter is to adapt to ever-changing situations and overcome, not shrink back into the shadows. How dare Firehouse.com speak for me or any other firefighter in this respect.

  9. #9
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    Just to clarify the misinformed previous post, the article in question was written by the Associated Press and ran in papers across the country. We would be remiss not to post it, as it is part of the entire story as a whole. Please read the entire story, not just the headline, as it does clarify no one is suggesting not saving lives.

    Thanks
    WebTeam

  10. #10
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    I think amybe we will take a diferent look at what happened, but there is not much to change, But the FIRST rule of firefighting is firefighter safety comes first. If a house is fully involed and there is no change of going in and somebody tells you theres someone in there does that mean your gonna be the stupid idiot to go in on a suicide mission. Think of our lives first, its sad to make that dission some times but it has to be done

  11. #11
    MembersZone Subscriber gfdtrk4's Avatar
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    I am speechless!?
    229: My thoughts exactly....I think!?!?
    More thought before posting(for everyone) would be good???
    I'm thinking......


    Be Safe!
    FTM-PTB
    trk4

  12. #12
    MembersZone Subscriber ChiefReason's Avatar
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    hotDamn:
    I believe that the article was written in a retrospective vein. It submits that changes will be made. Change is inevitable. Though I too believe in an aggressive approach to SOME incidents, I don't think that we should be lemmings running off the edge of the cliff, either. If I was your back up guy, I would certainly want you around for the next one. Your brazen comment about not changing your ways worries me. Don't be narrow-minded or you'll get blind-sided. Take a step back, re-evaluate and then go forward. I believe that not learning from 91101 would also be a disservice to those who died.
    Stay safe.

    [ 10-07-2001: Message edited by: Chief Reason ]
    Visit www.iacoj.com
    Remember Bradley Golden (9/25/01)
    RIP HOF Robert J. Compton(ENG6511)

  13. #13
    Forum Member FireCapt1951retired's Avatar
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    What I think about this article is that there will be a look at procedures. This look at procedures in my opinion should not relate to the WTC were MANY lives were in danger. The FDNY saved THOUSANDS of those lives. They did exactly as their oath and chosen career required. They gave their lives for fellow Americans and human beings. It's what we do, live's need to be saved and we will continue that goal, regardless. I know I would have to go in if lives were at stake. I really don't feel I could do anything else with out feeling dishonor in my heart.

  14. #14
    MembersZone Subscriber E229Lt's Avatar
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    Much of what Iím reading hear sounds like the posters are trying to say ďIíd never back out of a fire/situation, no matter how bad things gotĒ. Thatís what youíre TRYING to say. But the way it comes across here is, ďIíve never been in a REALLY bad situation, but Iíd like to think I wonít S**T my pants if I ever amĒ.

    With every loss of life, comes change. If a fire occurs and the civilian loss is 300+, I assure you, changes will be made and laws changed or amended. With the loss of 343 firefighters, many people will take a long look at current policies and try to assure the utmost safety of our members while not compromising our mission.

    If the media tries to assume the outcome of those policy changes and put them in print today, the only people more foolish than the media, is the firefighters who take their words to heart instead of waiting for word from their own superiors. I never took one order from the New York Times and Iím not about to start today. Chill out brothers.

  15. #15
    Forum Member FireCapt1951retired's Avatar
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    E229Lt,

    I agree with what you're saying. My point was that if there is that chance that a life can be saved, I would have to go. I've been doing this 29 years and have had some close calls, I feel I know when to back out but I would still have to give it my best shot.

  16. #16
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    I believe that hesitation leads to more problems then anything else. We think on our feet, not sitting on our butts. When we stop and ponder, we tend to go against what our gut is telling us. That gut instinct is what keeps us alive. Going into an engulfed structure defies logic. We need to look for possible signs of trouble, but we also need to rely on those outside to let us know when they see something is going bad.

    The saying goes"He who forgets past, is destined to repeat it." I think that not looking at the factors of any fatality is a huge mistake. Not just in NY, but everywhere. I see the posts almost weekly of ff who die from heart attacks on scenes. Now, I realize that fire scenes are very stressful, but I think that we aren't learning from these deaths because there are still many, who refuse to change something as simple as their diet.

    I hope that this doesn't offend. I am only trying to point out that we do need to learn from our fallen brothers and sisters. The only way to do that is look at these reports and talk about them.

  17. #17
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    This is a VERY hard question to answer. We lost over 300 brothers that were doing their JOB!
    Anytime there is a LODD we need to step back and ask ourselves what have we learned.
    Yessss, we WILL continue to do what we do.
    If we do a "simple" room and contents job like happened in Keokuk, Iowa or Pittsburgh Pa. (sorry for the over simplification here) and bad things happen, we learn and take steps to prevent it from happeneing again. Will it happen again... perhaps, because...
    we continue to do what we do!
    Like the man in a movie once said, "The funny thing about firemen is, day or night, they're always firemen."

    Now, I say this with no disrespect intended, and I'm sure that some of our "thinner skinned" members will take offense.

    We do not sacrifice our own. One of the jobs of an officer is to make sure that his firefighters come home when their shift is over or the fire is out.

    We have SOP's or SOG's for Hazmats. If we respond to a possible hazmat and see 30 people including firefighters and police officers laying on the ground in a cloud of green smoke, we don't drive in.

    If we run EMS and go to a shooting, we make sure that the scene is secure.

    Now, how did we come up with guidelines or procedures for these instances? Did we pull them out of our hats? No! We learned from our experiences.

    Unfortunatly, with 09/11 the rules of the game have changed. We learned A LOT that day. We learned things that we wish we never knew. We are STILL learning today with the biohazard scares and other potential terrorist activities.

    Will I continue to do what I've done... YEP! But you better believe I'll do it differently. When climbing up those smoke filled steps, I'll be LOOKING for trip wires or suspicious packages or boxes. When my ladder or engine round the corner I'll pay MORE attention to what the conditions are, how the smoke looks (is that brown or RED smoke), suspicious vehicles near the hydrant, etc.

    Sorry guys, this is NOT October of 2000. The world HAS changed, we need to change with it, to continue to do what we do..., with one MAJOR exception... we need to DO IT BETTER!


    SOAP BOX MODE = OFF

  18. #18
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    I think we need to take and reavalute things. The incidents of 9-11-01 have changed the rules of the game. I'm not saying we should second guess an order given unless there is a reason to do so. We need to review our SOP's to reflect the current state of things. To not review things and make the necacary changes is foolish and puts Firefighters at additional risk of being hurt or even killed on a incident.
    One of the most important things we need to do is apply some commun sence. I'm sure after they review things and make a final report of the incidents there will be new recomendations made for Firefighters and we should take a careful look at what they have to say.
    The most important thing is that we need to adapt to the better protect and serve ourselves and the public we serve. We are the ones who are first on scene and when we get there we want to be able to help correct the situation regardless of the type of incident it is.

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