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  1. #41
    Senior Member Dalmatian90's Avatar
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    No, personaly, I've been criticizing everyone who self-dispatched.

    What most people here are doing is praising the vollie Chief who had the balls to tell his people don't go and discipline them for it.

    If the big city career chiefs don't have those cohones, they're not going to get that praise.

    It doesn't make what their firefighters did any less wrong -- and wrong is what it was. Self-dispatching is about stroking your own ego and making yourself feel good, no matter how much you justify it as helping "people in need" or "Brothers."

    =========
    As some of have said, this was an act of war. Guess what folks, if soldiers ran towards "where the action was" against, or even simply *without* orders, they would be looking at Court Martial. War doesn't excuse a lack of discipline; it makes that lack of discipline that much more wrong and dangerous. And it makes the neccessity of firmly enforcing discipline that much more important.

    [ 10-12-2001: Message edited by: Dalmatian90 ]
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  2. #42
    blackb16
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    Odds are self dispatch will continue until the region gets its act together and develops statewide and region wide automatic and mutual aid packs. Prearranged strike teams and task forces, with meeting places, with prearraraged order of response, with minimum standards for apparatus and crew size, minimum qualifications for team leaders, and expand to something in order of say 1000 apparatus and 3 to 10,000 firefighters.

    Such arrangements work on a daily basis to levels 10 times the size of the WTC response. If people were really needed 10's of thousands of trained firefighters could have been there in 24 hours brings their own support system with them. If desired inmates could be used to move material and work in areas of high risk.

    Walking through 13 check points because you have a fire helmet does not occur at a well run event. It was possible to re-live the Lake Worth/Fort Worth situation where a self dispatched firefighter gets hurt or killed and has not protection or insurance.

    Walkons rarely if ever occur in areas with requirements, order and process. If what you all are saying is correct that the command staff was whiped out then a federal type 1 overhead team should have been brought in. If the locals want to control the fire stuff still bring in type one teams to arrange all the other things you all don't do everyday, feeding, logistics, payroll, etc. With eight equipment cashes for 22,500 firefighters each a lot of what ails you can arrive in a heart beat.

  3. #43
    MembersZone Subscriber ChiefReason's Avatar
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    Amen, Dalmation 90!
    I will go just a little bit further. When my brother or sister needs me, they call me. For those of you who "just had to go", you didn't join ranks; you BROKE ranks. You went against the wishes of the NY governor, NY mayor, and the FDNY. There may have been people there from every state in the union, but they were two kinds; 1) free-lancers or 2) requested for their specialized skills.
    If you had no tangible skills-and just wanting to help isn't tangible-then you were there for you and not for them. Hell, the whole country wanted to help and they did. They didn't have to go to NYC to do it either. When will you get your "I WAS AT THE BIG ONE IN NYC" patch with your letter of authenticity?
    I am sure that it made you feel good inside to go, but isn't that what you expected? Did you make any of the 6000 feel better? What about the FDNY? They going to give you a commendation letter for your file? Sold your story yet? Got your mug on a T-shirt? Is your local reporter hounding you for a story? Will your business cards say "I was there"? HooWah! So the moral of the story is that you went for you! No need to explain.
    My opinions are mine.
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  4. #44
    Senior Member Dalmatian90's Avatar
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    Odds are self dispatch will continue until the region gets its act together and develops statewide and region wide automatic and mutual aid packs.

    Self-dispatch is a discipline problem. If you can't follow today's plan, you won't follow tomorrows.

    Although most officers and firefighters aren't aware of them, such interstate plans are and have been in place since the 1940s.

    In Connecticut, it's Section 28-23a Connecticut General Statutes which adopts the Emergency Management Assistance Compact, and directs State OEM to execute interstate mutual aid pacts.

    The basic system remains unchanged from the Civil Defense duck-and-cover days of the 1950s -- State OEM to State OEM (through FEMA if needed), State OEM to County Fire Coordinators. County Fire Coordinators contact departments and tell them where, when, and what to report with.

    Yes, some updating is needed. Certainly a lot of practice is needed. But the foundation and structure of the plans are there. What they need is refinement and practice.
    IACOJ Canine Officer
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  5. #45
    blackb16
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    So, can you make one radio call and get 500 engines and 1500 firefighters? Will they be dispatched simultaneously? Do all 500 engines know who in what order will respond to your aid? Will the closest rigs always be dispatched? Do you know the minimum staffing on the rigs? Do they all know where to meet and who will lead? Who has the interstate gas card? Who can feed and bed the guys down? Who do you report to when you get there? What radio channel will you be on? Do you train together?

    If you don't have the answers to that right now you don't have a modern mutual aid plan. Don't be that these things will just happen after a bid event, your region has already had several. Anything less is a complete total joke. All risk all the time aid.

    During the Loma Preida quake, the 125 closest strike teams were dispatched before the earth even shook. Notification was by a P wave detector.

    We have lots of examples of saying we are going to do something, here is one.

    PERHAPS WE WILL NOW HAVE OUR PRIORITIES STRAIGHT!

    After the 1993 World Trade Center bombing, which killed six and injured 1,000, President Clinton promised that those responsible would be hunted down and punished.

    After the 1995 bombing in Saudi Arabia, which killed five U.S. military
    personnel, Clinton promised that those responsible would be hunted down and
    punished.

    After the 1996 Khobar Towers bombing in Saudi Arabia, which killed 19 and injured 200 U.S. military personnel, Clinton promised that those responsible would be hunted down and punished.

    After the 1998 bombing of U.S. embassies in Africa, which killed 224 and injured 5,000, Clinton promised that those responsible would be hunted down and punished.

    After the 2000 bombing of the USS Cole, which killed 17 and injured 39 U.S.
    sailors, Clinton promised that those responsible would be hunted down and
    punished.

    Maybe if Clinton had kept his promises, an estimated 7,000 people would be alive today.

    This question was raised on a Philly radio call-in show. Without casting stones, it is a legitimate question.

    There are two men, both extremely wealthy. One develops relatively cheap software and gives hundreds of millions of dollars to charity. The other sponsors terrorism. That being the case, why is it that the US government has spent more money chasing down Bill Gates over the past ten years than
    Osama bin Laden anf has lowered the average retirement account 60%?

    Here is an example of a plan:
    Local jurisdictions have identified 403 Type 1 Strike Teams as available resources for:
    1. Request by neighboring counties within the OES region for major incidents on a short-term basis.
    2. Request by State OES for major incidents under the California Fire Service and Rescue Mutual Aid Plan.

    1. Strike teams shall respond on Immediate Need requests with minimum delay (five (5) minutes).
    2. Strike teams shall respond on Planned Need requests based on an established assembly time or one (1) hour if no time is established.
    3. Class A (Type I) engines shall be used for structural protection in a wildland fire environment. They are not designed for operations on narrow, unsafe roads, cat, or brush trails. Common sense must be used in engine assignments.
    4. Each resource in a strike team shall carry credit cards and/or cash for routine travel expenses to and from out of county Planned Need incidents.
    5. Relief for strike team personnel will be based on a ninety-six (96) hour duty assignment.
    1. Strike team leaders should obtain the duty chief or administration telephone number from each engine when responding outside bay area counties.
    2. Once each twenty-four (24) hour period, as the assigned incident location changes and on release for travel, strike team leaders should contact their home jurisdiction with assignment, equipment and personnel status. The duty chief receiving the report will then notify the County Fire Coordinator and each engine's home jurisdiction. Each home jurisdiction is responsible to contact firefighters' families.
    3. Strike team leaders shall maintain all applicable written records for the incident.
    1. t is the strike team leader's responsibility to maintain control of the resources assigned (applies to responding and relief personnel):
    a. Brief all personnel ASAP.
    b. Inventory and inspect personnel and equipment during assembly. Any unsafe equipment or personnel without proper uniform and safety clothing may be rejected.
    c. Establish radio communications within the strike team.
    d. Establish order of travel within the strike team.
    e. Appoint an Assistant Strike Team Leader.
    2. Assure that all personal needs are met for personnel assigned:
    a. Medical
    b. Food
    c. Sleep
    3. Attend all required shift briefings and debriefings.
    4. The strike team leader is the only person authorized to sign out supplies.
    5. Crews often sleep during odd times. Even though strike team personnel are not tired, other people may be; be considerate.
    6. Even in base/camp or at a motel, the strike team is subject to dispatch/reactivation. It is the strike team leader's responsibility to ensure that team members are in a state of readiness.
    1. The strike team leader is responsible for the individual conduct of each team member. It is the responsibility of the strike team leader to establish and maintain discipline within the strike team. Under no circumstances will drinking of alcohol or use of drugs be condoned.
    2. The strike team leader shall keep the strike team together until each engine is released back to the local agency.
    3. Insure that travel routes are known and the most direct route is taken.
    4. Relief crews shall report and travel in uniform.
    A. Strike Team Leader Kits will include the following:
    OES Form 42 Emergency Activity Record 10
    ICS-201 Incident Briefing 10
    ICS-213 General Message 10
    ICS-214 Unit Log 25
    ICS-420-1 Field Operations Guide 1
    A. Agency-specific records
    Financial documents: Credit cards, purchase orders,
    Current Thomas Brothers maps
    Map No. 3037
    Map No. 4028
    Map No. 3022
    Map No. 3042

    [ 10-13-2001: Message edited by: lovelock ]

  6. #46
    FIREMAN 1st GRADE E40FDNYL35's Avatar
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    Their was one thing that ****ed me off about the volunteers, some of these guys thought it were boy's nite out. Taken pictures giving interviews. On more the on occasion I said something. And don’t you know they where all volunteers. Just my 2 cent after a month. Please say a pray for our BROTHERS.
    ALL GAVE SOME BUT SOME GAVE ALL
    NEVER FORGET 9-11-01
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    CAPT. Frank Callahan Ladder 35 *
    LT. John Ginley Engine 40
    FF. Bruce Gary Engine 40
    FF. Jimmy Giberson Ladder 35
    FF. Michael Otten Ladder 35 *
    FF. Steve Mercado Engine 40 *
    FF. Kevin Bracken Engine 40 *
    FF. Vincent Morello Ladder 35
    FF. Michael Roberts Ladder 35 *
    FF. Michael Lynch Engine 40
    FF. Michael Dauria Engine 40

    Charleston 9
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    *******************CLICK HERE*****************

  7. #47
    Senior Member Dalmatian90's Avatar
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    So, can you make one radio call and get 500 engines and 1500 firefighters? Will they be dispatched simultaneously? Do all 500 engines know who in what order will respond to your aid?

    Nah, doing the math I figure we'd only get 360 engines into my town today, if we stayed within the mutual aid system and didn't want to strip the area of coverage.
    IACOJ Canine Officer
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  8. #48
    blackb16
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    "Nah, doing the math I figure we'd only get 360 engines into my town today, if we stayed within the mutual aid system and didn't want to strip the area of coverage. "

    So tell us how that would happen, the process, the steps. You've got 360 rigs that can talk togheter? Stripping coverage should be part of the plan. Tell us who leads them to the scene, that everyone has maps, that there are trained leaders who meet the same rules from 1 to 360th rig. When they arrive the process of reporting in. Who is authorized to buy fuel, meals, or repairs.

    [ 10-13-2001: Message edited by: lovelock ]

  9. #49
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    I get so tired of hearing Larry rant and rave just trying to inflate his ego, pushing everyone else around because he is soooooo smart and all of us pidly firefighters are so stupid. I could care less about your MA plans. If you would have presented it in a way that we could stand to read it, maybe it would benefit us infidels. Go get some anger management training.

    It is a shame we cant fire you from the forums, anyway what is the real story on your past job???

    [ 10-15-2001: Message edited by: BFD 210 ]

  10. #50
    Senior Member Dalmatian90's Avatar
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    360 rigs that can talk togheter?
    Yep. 33.90, common region wide PL. At least the following Towns have capability on 33.90:
    (Town, # Fire Stations, + Other fire/rescue resources)
    Somers -- 1 Station
    Stafford -- 3 Stations + AMR Base
    Union -- 1 Station
    Woodstock -- 3 Stations
    Thompson -- 5 Stations
    East Windsor -- 2 Stations
    Ellington -- 2 Stations
    Vernon -- 5 Stations + Ambulance Station + Rockville Medics
    Tolland -- 4 Stations
    Willington -- 3 Stations
    Ashford -- 2 Stations
    Eastford -- 1 Station
    Pomfret -- 1 Station
    Putnam -- 2 Stations + Ambulance Station + QV Medics + AMR Substation
    Killingly -- 6 Stations + Ambulance Station
    Brooklyn -- 3 Stations
    Hampton -- 1 Station
    Chaplin -- 1 Station
    Windham -- 4 Stations + Windham Medics, Dive Team, and Eastern Connecticut Firemans Training School
    Mansfield -- 4 Stations
    Coventry -- 3 Stations
    Bolton -- 1 Station
    Andover -- 1 Station
    Columbia -- 1 Station
    Hebron -- 3 Stations
    Lebanon -- 1 Station
    Scotland -- 1 Station
    Canterbury -- 1 Station
    Plainfield -- 4 Stations + Ambulance Station
    Sterling -- 2 Stations
    Voluntown -- 1 Station
    Griswold -- 2 Stations + Ambulance Station
    Lisbon -- 1 Station
    Sprague -- 1 Station
    Franklin -- 1 Station
    Colchester -- 2 Stations
    Salem -- 2 Stations
    Bozrah -- 1 Station
    (Above departments are operate PRIMARILY on 33.90 and are dispatched on 33.80, those below use 33.90 as a mutual aid frequency, with other dispatch channels
    Norwich -- 7 Stations + American Ambulance + LifeStar 2 base
    Preston -- 2 Stations
    North Stonington -- 2 Stations
    Stonington -- 5 Stations
    Groton -- 12 (?) Stations
    New London -- 3 Stations
    Montville -- 5 Stations
    Ledyard -- 3 Stations + Ambulance Station
    Waterford -- 5 Stations
    East Lyme -- 3 Stations
    Lyme -- 2 Stations
    Old Lyme -- 2 Stations

    Let's see, off the top of my head thats 135 Stations. Stations average 3 to 5 Engines and Engine-Tankers each with few exceptions. Even taking the lower number, that's 405 Engines and Engine-Tankers.

    Without looking up on the lists, I believe there's also 31 Aerials within those towns.

    They all have 33.90 capability. So there's your 360 trucks.

    Oh, by the way, all those department on the top of the list that operate primarily on 33.90? They also all are dispatched on the same 33.80 system simulcast on 152.0075 and will eventually share the region wide alpha paging system. More over, they're dispatched by 4 regional dispatch centers (plus 2 small ones that do one department each). Each of the 4 regional centers are set up to serve as backup for the other 3. I wouldn't want to be working there if it happens...but we could have to evacuate 3 of the 4 regional centers and still be able to tone every department the "33.90 Group", still talk to every fire truck in Eastern Connecticut, still receive every 911 call since the phone company will redirect them from one center to another.

    Stripping coverage should be part of the plan.
    Gosh, I guess we don't plan to **strip** coverage -- is that what they do out west? With over 400 Engines in our mutual aid area, we can deploy 360 engines and still have 40 engines on standby.

    Did I mention that since the 1950s, all those towns above have been bound by written mutual aid plans? Each Fire Chief signs with his Fire Chiefs Association, then the Fire Chiefs Association execute mutual aid agreements between the associations -- Tolland County Fire Mutual Aid System, Willimantic Area Fire Switchboard, Quinebaug Valley Fire Chiefs Association, and the New London County Fire Chiefs Association.

    Tell us who leads them to the scene,
    That is the role of the County Coordinators and there assistants -- normally senior Fire Chiefs from each county who get "volunteered." Yep, we could do a better job with the County Coordinators, but they do exist.

    that everyone has maps
    Fortunately, Eastern Connecticut is compact enough firefighters will know the location given for tertiary and secondary staging locations, from where better directions can be given if needed by the staging officers.

    that there are traine leaders who meet the same rules from 1 to 360th rig.
    Training is very similiar throughout the area, all three counties share the same training center at Willimantic as well as attending the more advanced State Fire Academy.

    Yes, individual department standards may vary for Officer qualifications, but it's a nice thing on large deployments like a disaster we'd deploy on a company basis. Give an officer an order...a fundemental bit of training out here whether Firefighter or Officer is if you're asked to do something you don't feel comfortable with or don't have the training to do, you explain that to the person giving you orders.

    Part of this is requesting commanders can be selective -- if you need grunt help, you can ask for all available personnel. If you need specialized help, you ask for that.

    For the WTC Stand-by State OEM requirements where) 1. All FFII or above (including Haz Mat Ops); 2. Food, bedding, and support gear to be independent except for water and fuel for 5 days.

    When they arrive the process of reporting in.
    You report to the assigned staging areas, those are set by the needs and location of the incident. First arriving officer becomes the Staging Officer until he passes that assignment or is relieved.

    Primary staging is in the immediate vicinity of the incident, and has a primary staging officer and staff to track incoming and assigned resources.

    Secondary staging is at a convient parking area -- typically near a major intersection and often at a fire station. Kept a bit away from the scene, these are units Incident Command doesn't know if or where to deploy yet. Quite common during establishing long lays to keep unneccessary equipment back until water supply is established.

    Tertiary Staging is the step between stand-by in quarters and Secondary Staging during major incidents. It may be a move up to a secondary staging location in the quarters of another company, or it may be an assembly point for larger forces such as the Firefighters Training School or a shopping plaza. For a campaign deployment outside of region, the Eastern Connecticut Firefighters Training School is the mobilization point, as it has radio communications, it has class rooms for briefings, has shower & kitchen facilities if needed, and has the room to stage a significant sized task force.

    Ops request personnel & equipment. Command either asks primary staging to send it up, or on large incidents the County Coordinators take over that function for Command. They stand next to Command, command says "I need four more engines." and the Coordinators coordinate the move-ups from primary staging and refilling primary from secondary staging.

    Who is authorized to buy fuel, meals, or repairs.
    If it is for an emergency need for my department, any officer is authorized by the Chief and Board of Directors. Further, the Chief has been given Standing Approval for expenditures upto $10,000 directly related to the management of an emergency. That $10,000 may not sound like much but in a town our size, that goes a long way and gives him flexibility to act without consultation first with the Town Selectmen or Fire Co. Board of Directors.

    The Town itself in the end is responsible for fuel, meals, repairs, and other costs of mutual aid received. And the First Selectmen/Mayor/Manager depending on your government structure is the official with the emergency powers to engage in contracts as needed.


    ---------------
    I guess I'm just a little proud of our area -- yep, we could improve. But it's not like we've never setup systems like California. Then again, we don't have the need in Eastern Connecticut to go much beyond the mutual aid system laid out above -- no cities larger than 50,000...no severe wildland fire hazard. Just a bunch of little, and many traditionally poor, towns that over the years had some good leaders who laid the foundation.

    This part of the thread started when you commented:
    Odds are self dispatch will continue until the region gets its act together and develops statewide and region wide automatic and mutual aid packs.

    Well, I just laid out in details those plans for Windham, Tolland, and New London Counties. Litchfield County which also regionally dispatches has similiar plans; Middlesex County is largely regionally dispatched too. Hartford and New Have County are organized under their respective county's Fire Chiefs Emergency Plans. Not sure of Fairfield County's plans. State OEM handles overall control when deploying out of state.

    The plans are there. The biggest achilles heel is the lack of discipline to keep them constantly updated and taught to everyone.

    No plan, no matter how good, matters for anything if the discipline isn't there to follow it.

    With our ability to muster 360 Engines, why was their so much self-dispatching to the WTC?

    Can't answer that -- our region wasn't called other than to an OEM Standby for possible deployment. Yeah, had a few self dispatchers too.

    I suppose someone who did self-dispatch to the pile would be in better position to answer. Someone with the screenname "Magnolia" or something like that wrote on firefightersforums.com that there volunteers there from all over the nation, even some from Fallon, NV. Anyone here from Fallon or that area? Maybe a town just north of Churchill County like, oh, Lovelock, who would know someone from Fallon who seems to lack self-discipline?
    IACOJ Canine Officer
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  11. #51
    This space for rent NYSmokey's Avatar
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    Great post Dalmatian90!

    Sounds like you have things pretty well in order in Connecticut!
    Tom

    Never Forget 9-11-2001

    Stay safe out there!

    IACOJ Member

  12. #52
    blackb16
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    Mr. 958 posts. I think it is lovely how you believe you are big enough to attack the entire western fire service with your posts.

    Grow up!

    If you can't focus on the topic don't bother to answer.

    Do you guys follow any of the national standards in regard to training, ie red cards etc, or is it a first come first serve thing...you get what you get if it comes?

    Being bound by a mutual aid plan, is that what the term "scratch on the call" in Toland means. Bound until you don't respond? I saw that several times in one week. Rigs running with one guy, etc. Is that what bound means? Seems like lots of fire departments with real expensive fire trucks, lots of guys at drill at night and none around during the day for calls. But I was only in two of the counties you listed.

    So you respond to a region of the state? Do you go convoy or individual resource? Who leads the MA?

    Wonderfully professional of you to list fire departments by name and say they self dispatched to the pile. Is it too hard for you to understand folks with red cards who run huge events several months a year throghout the US are likely to get invited real early to such events? And stay for weeks. Even though they are not on a USAR team. Not people from no where USA with zero experience?

    Ready to take some more shots at the US fire service?

  13. #53
    Forum Member PAVolunteer's Avatar
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    Larry!

    Welcome back!!! Ready to tell us why you left Fire Rescue?

    If anyone knows what Larry is talking about, please fill me in. It's funny to see how he reacts when someone like Dalmation posts an informative and all-inclusive reply that covers all the bases.

    If anyone else knows why Larry left Fire-Rescue ... please let us know!!!

    Careful Dalmation, you're debating with someone who was on a 1,000 Alarm brush fire.

    Stay Safe and don't kill anyone Larry

  14. #54
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    Lovelock...if goofy ideas sold for $20.OO a barrel, I'd want the drilling rights to your head.

    First, convergence of uninvited "help" has happened at every disaster...manmade or otherwise...in the United States with no exceptions. So your information on Loma Prieda - and other disaster w/ an organized mutual aid, blah, blah, blah...rarely having convergence, etc (I don't remember your exact words) is wrong. The problem is so widespread that you can read about it in almost any emergency management journal.

    Secondly, why would I want a plan for 500 fire engines and 1500 firefighters to be dispatched simultaneously? Why is simultaneous dispatch important if they have an order they are supposed to come in anyway? Depending on the scale of an incident, the people you think will show up have problems of their own. ...and who is this person that is coordinating and commanding this? I hope he or she is at work that day. For us, all mutual aid would just fall into the expanding ICS system w/ the EOC operating to coordinate the multiple scenes in a wide-spread incident.

    Dooms-day planning can definitely be taken too far. All the logistical stuff...fuel, food, port-a-johns, lodging, admin, etc...are addressed in nearly all emergency management plans. It isn't important for line firefighter to even know what most of the plan states, so asking people on here is a waste of time....that isn't our job.

    If this is a 1000 alarm grass fire you may have room for a designated spot for 1500 fire men and 500 fire apparatus to show up. You can stick them in a 100 acre field or something. However, anyone involved in emergency management knows that what works for one jurisdiction will not necessarily work for any other jurisdiction. So give us a break already w/ what you think is right for us when you have no idea what our capabilities are.


  15. #55
    blackb16
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    Gee the topic was northeast REGION. Is Texas in the Northeast? Ok let's expand the scope. Yeah what works one place won't work somewhere else. Like what water, pumpers, ladder trucks, firefighters, hose, nozzles, floodlights, radios, axes, saws, extrication gear, WHAT??? But things that work do in fact work. ICS works everywhere. Statewide mutual aid works. Places without it look pretty silly.

    I can't recall anyone talking about wildland fires either. Ok you want to try to talk intelligently about large wildland events, Garland huh?

    Try showing up with your firefighters or fire truck to a major event in a practicing statewide mutual aid state, or USDA, Park Service or BLM event. You won't get by staging without an invite or paper work.

    Certainly being from Texas you understand the dangers of volunteering away from the job at someone else's call without your pension/insurance benefits going with you? And all the issues of not keeping track of ones firefighters?

    Why 1500 guys or 500 rigs? Well the firefighters have to get there somehow. The most common piece of apparatus is an engine. It is the tool box most departments run. But it was simply an example. In August I recall two 300 plus engine responses at the same time 75 miles apart. Take what you need. So fill in the blanks yourself. Would it have made sense to send 1500 guys to Harris, FT Bend County area for the floods a few months ago? By car, truck, engine, bus??

    Ya think they could have used the help if there was a way to call for it? Say 100 boats? If it was already laid out? Sure in three days most people were not on their roofs or stranded on an overpass anymore. But wouldn't same day or next service been better than 3??? Why shouldn't one call bring you what ever you want in a logical method and order? It works lots of other places. You'd rather have a bunch of sincerely wrong guys operating boats making rescues or a bunch of trained folks?

    Did I ever say anything about Loma Preida and convergence?? NO. Go ahead and read whatever you want or go watch and live it in real life.

    "why would I want a plan for 500 fire engines and 1500 firefighters to be dispatched simultaneously? "

    Because you want them??? You want them now? Because they are far away and the sooner you ask the sooner they arrive? Because you plan on using them? It doesn't matter if the number is 50 or 1000 does it? You asked you want. Never heard ask early?

    "Why is simultaneous dispatch important if they have an order they are supposed to come in anyway?"

    Open your little emergency planning journal to the Oakland Hills Fire. Did the closest companies get dispatched first? No, an hour into the event they did. Why because the emergency planners couldn't think as big as the event. You have to use all the resources in your own county first right? Even when they are further away than a whole lot of other counties. That is a real life example of emergency planners in action.

    "Depending on the scale of an incident, the people you think will show up have problems of their own"

    Maybe and maybe not. Did Katy flood when the adjoining county flooded? When resources are committed does thepln take that into account? It better. When command A asked for his 300 engines how did dispatch fill Command B's request for 300 engines? The plan addressed the need. DUH!

    "and who is this person that is coordinating and commanding this"

    I posted the Santa Clara Plan it explains perfectly. Want more type OES Santa Clara. It is one version of the most used and tested plan in the US.

    "? I hope he or she is at work that day. "

    YOu'll note there is a schedule for every day and hour of the year and the ability to bring overhead teams in on rotation from all over the US.

    "Dooms-day planning can definitely be taken too far. "

    Not really, the process to move one is the same to move 27,000. It happens every year. moving 6000 guys here, 400 engies here, cashes for 22,500 guys there, etc. It is all about thinking about the future. A couple months back your state had a fire with H2S running down the main street of a town. In a few hours all the water in town was gone. Was it predictable? Yep. NFPA says you can't put out a fire in tank larger than 120 feet in diameter. Good thing the guy who put out the 225 foot diameter tank didn't follow NFPA and planned on it.

    "All the logistical stuff...fuel, food, port-a-johns, lodging, admin, etc...are addressed in nearly all emergency management plans. It isn't important for line firefighter to even know what most of the plan states, so asking people on here is a waste of time....that isn't our job."

    Oh, I'm sorry, these boards are only for rookie firefighters? No officers or firefighters who will be asked to fill an ICS position at an emergency? No one here will ever sit on a committee?

    "So give us a break already w/ what you think is right for us when you have no idea what our capabilities are."

    Well let's see, Texas: Your department uses a Grace T PAss system, your adjoining county has 12 of its 26 fire departments do an inadequate job of providing protection for businesses and homeowners, More than one-third of the suburban fire departments in the Dallas-Fort Worth area rank among the worst in the state, 33% of your fire departments can't sustain 250 gpm, the average compliance to NFPA in your state is 30%, your largest fire departments staff to 50% or less of 2 in 2 out, you pay some of the highest fire insurance premiums in the US. Average ISO grade a Class 7. What else is there to know? Did I leave anything out?

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    Once again...an individual has changed the theme of the thread to promote his own "I know everything about firefighting agenda".


    Dalmatian 90 may have 958 or something posts, but the threads that he starts and the answers he gives to other's threads are rational and intelligent.

    At least he hasn't been banned from the forums and has had to come back as an alter (or should that be "I am a firefighting god pray at my altar") ego?
    The man has more personalities than Sybil!

    Can we get back on the topic now? To refresh one's memory, it was about the suspension of firefighters for going to the WTC disaster against orders.

    [ 10-14-2001: Message edited by: Captain Gonzo ]
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Mr. 958 posts. I think it is lovely how you believe you are big enough to attack the entire western fire service with your posts.
    Grow up!


    ROFLMAO, Larry.

    [ 10-14-2001: Message edited by: Dalmatian90 ]
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    Back to the original topic....some guys from a neighboring dept. grabbed their gear and drove to NY. They came back expecting to be heros. No one talked to them, exept to tell them they were stupid.
    Do we want to go to the "big one" a few towns over? Yes. Do we go unless asked? No, of course not. It's discipline, and it is part of the job, one of the most important parts. It also seperates the pros from the wannabes, whatever type of department they come from.

  19. #59
    blackb16
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    Matt Kivela CT ferry tales.

    Examples of your fables...

    Tolland -- 4 Stations
    [i]Stations average 3 to 5 Engines and Engine-Tankers each >/i>
    Matt Kivela's inference to the fact daytime staffing is low during the day Matt Kivela replies Most of the departments in Tolland County are combination with paid day staffing. Interesting.

    So shall we check Matt Kivela fairy tale?

    FACT: They have 5 members of there duty crew.

    FACT: Should we believe all 5 are on duty every day of the week?

    FACT: No one is ever on a day off, sick, vactation, out of town, etc?

    FACT: Shall we assume that Tolland will send all of there rigs to someone elses fires not leaving a rig home to protect themselves?

    The Matt Kivela fairy tale tells us you all the departments apparatus total up to 360 rigs he can get on mutual aid.

    OK, Matt Kivela says Tolland has 4 stations. Matt Kivela says each station has 3 to 5 engines. SO let's check Matt Kivela math. 4 times 3 = 12 and 4 times 5 equals 20.

    SO TELL US Matt Kivela THE FAIRY TALE MAN

    HOW 5 DUTY CREW GUYS STAFF 12 TO 20 RIGS?

    TELL US HOW A DEPARTMENT WITH A GRAND TOTAL OF 60 VOLUNTEER MEMBERS CAN STAFF 12 TO 20 ENGINES 24 HOURS A DAY?

    I mentioned they were running with one guy per rig or simply not responding.

    Matt Kivela will have you believe that 60 volunteers are always ready. The special fairy tale CT type. We all know if you are lucky 50% at best are ever ready to respond 24 hours a day. Some might find 33% a better bet. THAT'S NOT ONE PER RIG?

    Matt Kivela when does the fairy tale stop? Shall we do each fire department together? You want to see an entire counties ISO response to structure fire facts?

    Support data: You will find the fairy tale man, Matt Kivela made up the number of engines Tolland owns.

    THEY HAVE 6 total engines Matt Kivela NOT 12 OR 20 LIKE Matt Kivela MADE UP.

    if you make up the little things how can anyone believe you on the big things Matt Kivela? Like, "every station has 3 to 5 engines?" Matt Kivela you know the facts none of Tolland's stations have 3 to 5 engines. Nice fairy tale though!!!!!

    The five full-time Public Safety Officers supplement the Department during daytime hours, names are: John Littell, James Toomey, Dennis Carlson, Joe Duval, and Dale Zahner.

    From 6 p.m. to 6 a.m. Monday through Friday and all weekends, a public safety officer is on duty to assure department leadership on a continuous basis.

    Matt Kivela, how do 5 guys on 12 hour shifts 7 days a week staffing 6 rigs average anything but less than one per rig? Matt Kivela brags about partial OSHA compliance, well 2 in 2 out???????

    Feel free to call 860 871-3681 and ask for Chief John Littell to verify the above Matt Kivela statements are fairy tales.

    Now if Matt Kivela is off 200 to 300% on this small portion of his post what else is he off???????

    Vernon doesn't have 3 to 5 engines per station either, or, or, or... Nice try at bragging about the region you obviously know nothing about.

    Matt Kivela the fairy tale man. Coventry doesn't have 25% of what you say they have. LOL

    I bet we can find lots more holes,shall we?

    OH SEEING AS HOW YOU ARE DELETING ALL YOUR POSTS ON THIS TOPIC I THOUGHT I'D POST WHAT YOU WROTE SO YOU CAN CONVIENTLY DELETE
    EVERYTHING AGAIN!! SURPRISING HOW YOR ABOVE POSTS ARE BEING DELETED...WHAT'S WRONG?

    360 rigs that can talk togheter?
    Yep. 33.90, common region wide PL. At least the following Towns have capability on 33.90:
    (Town, # Fire Stations, + Other fire/rescue resources)
    Somers -- 1 Station
    Stafford -- 3 Stations + AMR Base
    Union -- 1 Station
    Woodstock -- 3 Stations
    Thompson -- 5 Stations
    East Windsor -- 2 Stations
    Ellington -- 2 Stations
    Vernon -- 5 Stations + Ambulance Station + Rockville Medics
    Tolland -- 4 Stations
    Willington -- 3 Stations
    Ashford -- 2 Stations
    Eastford -- 1 Station
    Pomfret -- 1 Station
    Putnam -- 2 Stations + Ambulance Station + QV Medics + AMR Substation
    Killingly -- 6 Stations + Ambulance Station
    Brooklyn -- 3 Stations
    Hampton -- 1 Station
    Chaplin -- 1 Station
    Windham -- 4 Stations + Windham Medics, Dive Team, and Eastern Connecticut Firemans Training School
    Mansfield -- 4 Stations
    Coventry -- 3 Stations
    Bolton -- 1 Station
    Andover -- 1 Station
    Columbia -- 1 Station
    Hebron -- 3 Stations
    Lebanon -- 1 Station
    Scotland -- 1 Station
    Canterbury -- 1 Station
    Plainfield -- 4 Stations + Ambulance Station
    Sterling -- 2 Stations
    Voluntown -- 1 Station
    Griswold -- 2 Stations + Ambulance Station
    Lisbon -- 1 Station
    Sprague -- 1 Station
    Franklin -- 1 Station
    Colchester -- 2 Stations
    Salem -- 2 Stations
    Bozrah -- 1 Station
    (Above departments are operate PRIMARILY on 33.90 and are dispatched on 33.80, those below use 33.90 as a mutual aid frequency, with other dispatch channels
    Norwich -- 7 Stations + American Ambulance + LifeStar 2 base
    Preston -- 2 Stations
    North Stonington -- 2 Stations
    Stonington -- 5 Stations
    Groton -- 12 (?) Stations
    New London -- 3 Stations
    Montville -- 5 Stations
    Ledyard -- 3 Stations + Ambulance Station
    Waterford -- 5 Stations
    East Lyme -- 3 Stations
    Lyme -- 2 Stations
    Old Lyme -- 2 Stations
    Let's see, off the top of my head thats 135 Stations. Stations average 3 to 5 Engines and Engine-Tankers each with few exceptions. Even taking the lower number, that's 405 Engines and Engine-Tankers.

    Without looking up on the lists, I believe there's also 31 Aerials within those towns.

    They all have 33.90 capability. So there's your 360 trucks.

    Oh, by the way, all those department on the top of the list that operate primarily on 33.90? They also all are dispatched on the same 33.80 system simulcast on 152.0075 and will eventually share the region wide alpha paging system. More over, they're dispatched by 4 regional dispatch centers (plus 2 small ones that do one department each). Each of the 4 regional centers are set up to serve as backup for the other 3. I wouldn't want to be working there if it happens...but we could have to evacuate 3 of the 4 regional centers and still be able to tone every department the "33.90 Group", still talk to every fire truck in Eastern Connecticut, still receive every 911 call since the phone company will redirect them from one center to another.

    Stripping coverage should be part of the plan.
    Gosh, I guess we don't plan to **strip** coverage -- is that what they do out west? With over 400 Engines in our mutual aid area, we can deploy 360 engines and still have 40 engines on standby.

    Did I mention that since the 1950s, all those towns above have been bound by written mutual aid plans? Each Fire Chief signs with his Fire Chiefs Association, then the Fire Chiefs Association execute mutual aid agreements between the associations -- Tolland County Fire Mutual Aid System, Willimantic Area Fire Switchboard, Quinebaug Valley Fire Chiefs Association, and the New London County Fire Chiefs Association.

    Tell us who leads them to the scene,
    That is the role of the County Coordinators and there assistants -- normally senior Fire Chiefs from each county who get "volunteered." Yep, we could do a better job with the County Coordinators, but they do exist.

    that everyone has maps
    Fortunately, Eastern Connecticut is compact enough firefighters will know the location given for tertiary and secondary staging locations, from where better directions can be given if needed by the staging officers.

    that there are traine leaders who meet the same rules from 1 to 360th rig.
    Training is very similiar throughout the area, all three counties share the same training center at Willimantic as well as attending the more advanced State Fire Academy.

    Yes, individual department standards may vary for Officer qualifications, but it's a nice thing on large deployments like a disaster we'd deploy on a company basis. Give an officer an order...a fundemental bit of training out here whether Firefighter or Officer is if you're asked to do something you don't feel comfortable with or don't have the training to do, you explain that to the person giving you orders.

    Part of this is requesting commanders can be selective -- if you need grunt help, you can ask for all available personnel. If you need specialized help, you ask for that.

    For the WTC Stand-by State OEM requirements where) 1. All FFII or above (including Haz Mat Ops); 2. Food, bedding, and support gear to be independent except for water and fuel for 5 days.

    When they arrive the process of reporting in.
    You report to the assigned staging areas, those are set by the needs and location of the incident. First arriving officer becomes the Staging Officer until he passes that assignment or is relieved.

    Primary staging is in the immediate vicinity of the incident, and has a primary staging officer and staff to track incoming and assigned resources.

    Secondary staging is at a convient parking area -- typically near a major intersection and often at a fire station. Kept a bit away from the scene, these are units Incident Command doesn't know if or where to deploy yet. Quite common during establishing long lays to keep unneccessary equipment back until water supply is established.

    Tertiary Staging is the step between stand-by in quarters and Secondary Staging during major incidents. It may be a move up to a secondary staging location in the quarters of another company, or it may be an assembly point for larger forces such as the Firefighters Training School or a shopping plaza. For a campaign deployment outside of region, the Eastern Connecticut Firefighters Training School is the mobilization point, as it has radio communications, it has class rooms for briefings, has shower & kitchen facilities if needed, and has the room to stage a significant sized task force.

    Ops request personnel & equipment. Command either asks primary staging to send it up, or on large incidents the County Coordinators take over that function for Command. They stand next to Command, command says "I need four more engines." and the Coordinators coordinate the move-ups from primary staging and refilling primary from secondary staging.

    Who is authorized to buy fuel, meals, or repairs.
    If it is for an emergency need for my department, any officer is authorized by the Chief and Board of Directors. Further, the Chief has been given Standing Approval for expenditures upto $10,000 directly related to the management of an emergency. That $10,000 may not sound like much but in a town our size, that goes a long way and gives him flexibility to act without consultation first with the Town Selectmen or Fire Co. Board of Directors.

    The Town itself in the end is responsible for fuel, meals, repairs, and other costs of mutual aid received. And the First Selectmen/Mayor/Manager depending on your government structure is the official with the emergency powers to engage in contracts as needed.


    ---------------
    I guess I'm just a little proud of our area -- yep, we could improve. But it's not like we've never setup systems like California. Then again, we don't have the need in Eastern Connecticut to go much beyond the mutual aid system laid out above -- no cities larger than 50,000...no severe wildland fire hazard. Just a bunch of little, and many traditionally poor, towns that over the years had some good leaders who laid the foundation.

    This part of the thread started when you commented:
    Odds are self dispatch will continue until the region gets its act together and develops statewide and region wide automatic and mutual aid packs.

    Well, I just laid out in details those plans for Windham, Tolland, and New London Counties. Litchfield County which also regionally dispatches has similiar plans; Middlesex County is largely regionally dispatched too. Hartford and New Have County are organized under their respective county's Fire Chiefs Emergency Plans. Not sure of Fairfield County's plans. State OEM handles overall control when deploying out of state.

    The plans are there. The biggest achilles heel is the lack of discipline to keep them constantly updated and taught to everyone.

    No plan, no matter how good, matters for anything if the discipline isn't there to follow it.

    With our ability to muster 360 Engines, why was their so much self-dispatching to the WTC?

    Can't answer that -- our region wasn't called other than to an OEM Standby for possible deployment. Yeah, had a few self dispatchers too.

    [ 10-15-2001: Message edited by: lovelock ]

  20. #60
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    Larry, once again, has proven himself even more idiotic than we all could have ever thought. It's rather humorous to see that Larry, who in a previous forum made fun of departments for being ready every day of the week for a disaster similar to September 11th, is now saying that his department is, always was, and always will be. It's also rather humorous how Larry never actually says anything, he just rips apart other people's posts (with arguments that could just be made up lies since the rest of us don't have time or don't care enough to follow up on all the things that he says). Would everyone who cares what Larry has to say please stand up!!!

    Oh, sorry I stand corrected, we all do care what Larry has to say regarding why he left Fire Rescue. Spill it Larry!!!

    Stay Safe and don't kill anyone Larry!!!

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