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  1. #1
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    Default Anti-Muslim(Great Satan Haters) American FF

    I know a few Muslims here in town and I am sure most are the same; honest, peace-loving people. However, the fanatics always seem to get all of the attention. Kudos to them, my gun's loaded.

    These hanyacks in Miami-Dade(Muslim or not, you professional victims can still KMA) and Albany and those bearded dildos in D.C.:

    If the Flag is a symbol of oppression to you, then your turban/rag/12inch beard is most defintely a symbol of terrorism to me and my family. I will ask you to remove it in my presence.

    Penalty for non-removal? I think I may just start marketing some (Anti-American)Muslim eau-de-pig***** spray.
    Peace,
    TROLL


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    Sorry, man, you lost me. Islam is a peaceful religion--Osama Bin Laden and the anti-American folks are insulting all true Muslims--and to say that a turban & beard, the symbols of this religion, are marks of terrorism is also insulting, as would it be to say that the yamulke of a Jew or the pectal cross of the Pope is a symbol of terrorism. There are chowderheads of all races, religions, and colors, and it is dangerous to paint with too broad a brush. If you truly want peace, as your closing suggested, we must not be distracted by false causes. Turbans and beards do not cause terrorism, people do.

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    Minnfire is right - what happened on September 11 has nothing to do with the actual religion of Islam. Nowhere in the Koran (holy book of Islam) does it say anything about violence or terrorism.

    What would have happened if these terrorists had said they carried these acts out in the name of Christianity? Obviously if that was the care people would take these terrorists for nothing but wack jobs. It's really the same situation, just with a different religion.

    .Turk II

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    Let us remember there are two sides to the story. However, Minnfire and Turk among others have a valid point. The Koran and the religion are not the problems, it's people and their interpertation of the teachings that are the cause. There are more people who are peaceful, than those that are not. Let us treat those who are peaceful as we want to be treated, with respect, kindness and compassion. If it was you having an emergency would you want some to have preconcived notion about you based on your religion? I wouldn't, besides the military, intelligence agengcies, etc of the world are hunting. Oslama and his buddies have the biggest bulleyes painted on them. The world is a small place when everyone is looking for you. So give people a chance. And always be safe.
    We can't stay in hell, we are liable to put it out.

  5. #5
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Let me interject a few thoughts here. And pardon me troll911 if I attempt to paraphrase what you are trying to say.

    I too have a problem with the Muslim firefighters discussed in another forum feeling that their religion gives them the right to tear down a poster with the flag on it or the flag itself because it "offends" their religious beliefs. Last time I checked, their location was well within the borders of the United States. And also last time I checked, the Stars and Stripes were the official flag of this country. As a symbol of this nation when you are in this country you should treat that symbol with respect. If it causes you personal anguish to display the flag...then where you are in control don't display it. But to attempt to destroy or remove that symbol in a public place is NOT within their rights, religious or otherwise.

    I personnally have no animosity towards those of the Islamic faith. I feel horror at the stories of those mistreated in this country in a false sense of nationalistic pride. The average person of Islamic and/or middle eastern background in this country is little different then our forefathers who came to this country to be free, live a good life and hopefully to prosper economically.

    As far as Islam being a peaceful religion I believe that is true. Unfortunately, it has been twisted by some to justify Jihad (I hope I spelled that right, holy war). So to many it may seem as if that is what Islam is all about. That is no more true than Christianity in this country is only about the illegal killing doctors to stop abortion, or doomsday cults.

    So, in summary: The terrorists are evil, all of Islam shouldn't be painted with a Bin Laden brush, and if I am there...don't mess with my flag.

    Take care and stay safe,

    FyredUp
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  6. #6
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    While many confirm that Islam is a peacefull religion, I keep seeing stories such as the one below. Is there a difference between peacefull and compassionate? Not to mention hipocrisy.

    Reuters
    Friday October 19 8:26 AM ET
    Woman to Face Death by Stoning for Adultery
    LAGOS (Reuters) - A Nigerian Muslim sharia court has sentenced a nursing mother to death by stoning after she was convicted of adultery, a Nigerian newspaper reported on Friday.

    The court in Sokoto state in northern Nigeria convicted Safiya Hussaini for adultery and ordered she be stoned to death once she has finished weaning her baby, state-owned Daily Times newspaper said.

    The court acquitted Yakubu Abubakar whom Hussaini said made her pregnant. She has 30 days to appeal the sentence.

    Sokoto government officials were not immediately available for comment. Sokoto is one of more than a dozen states in predominantly Islamic northern Nigeria which have proclaimed sharia law.

    Multi-ethnic Nigeria is bitterly divided over sharia law, which was first adopted by Zamfara state in 1999.

    Hundreds of people were killed in 2000 in bouts of Christian-Muslim bloodletting after some northern states adopted sharia law.

    Hussaini, a housewife, was not put in custody but was told she had to present herself on the appropriate date for execution.

    ``If she fails to do so, the police and the general public will be used to bring her to court,'' the Daily Times quoted presiding judge Mohammed Sanyinnawal as saying.

    A court in Zamfara state last year acquitted a man who impregnated a teenage girl. She was sentenced to caning.

    Rights groups describe sharia court sentences as barbaric and a violation of fundamental human rights.


    Does that mean the sharia law blames everything on women? And they get punished by canning and stoning? While not representing all of muslim law, this one doesn't sound too peacefull to me.

  7. #7
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    In reply to "troll911's post. I agree, only in much stronger terms! It is my understanding that this character (muslim "firefighter" - I place fighter in quotation marks because he is not, in my mind, a TRUE FIREFIGHTER BROTHER) obtained his job by protesting results of tests, qualifications, etc. on the grounds that he was not hired because he is a "minority." Darn right he's a minority - and NOT because he's a muslim! Rather, because he is NOT a true American, has (technically) advocated overthrow of the government (ours) and does not appreciate what so many Americans have fough, sacrificed and died for for over 200 years! Give the bearded quirk a history lesson, shave his beard (in most departments facial hair is not allowed for safety reasons. I'm a minister, but I do not wear my robes into a structure fire! After his history lesson, give him a "sex change operation" and send him to Afghanistan as a woman! At the very least, ostricise him. There is NOTHING in "affirmation action" which says we have to like or associate with the ^#@!*!. Give him the cold shoulder. If the American flag or a very patrotic sentence or two "offends" him, I know just the place for him. And it's NOT in America!!!

  8. #8
    Forum Member firemangeorge's Avatar
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    Turn the situation around on them. If you are in a situation where you must work with one of these individuals, have a little fun at their expense and show your patriotism at the same time. Here are a few suggestions.

    1. Whenver you are in their presence, sing, hum or whistle America the Beautiful or the Star Spangled Banner. If you singing is as bad as mine, you will offend them doubly!

    2. Preclude every statement you make with the phrase "As a patriotic and flag waving American..."

    3. Turn the inside of your locker(s) into a shrine of Americanna, plastered with American flags, pictures of the Statue of Liberty, etc. Keep the doors wide open whenever you are on duty. Prop them open if someone decides to close them.

    4. If you are the cook, be sure to include such items as apple pie, hot dogs, potatoe salad and of course Yankee Potroast in the menu, and post it on the board every day, along with a picture of a small American flag.

    5. While the object of your detest is in the restroom, stop in and shave off those All American whiskers while whistling a patriotic tune. As long as he has the urge to go, you will have a captive audience.

    In order to keep yourself free of harrassment charges, do all of these things to the other guys (gals) as well. If they are as red blooded as you, they will join in with you!

    And always be sure to point out anything the object of your detest does to offend you. Go straight to your officer. Remember, in the Chief's mind, he who is offended first must be right.

    Fight this fire with fire.
    See You At The Big One

  9. #9
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    FP & LS GUY,

    While I agree that stoning is too harsh a penalty for adultery, I am too smart to blast another religion without taking a look at those that supposedly share mine.

    The amount of killing and mayhem done in the name of Christianity is long and sad. How about the burning of suspected witches in early America? How about the bombing of abortion clinics and the MURDER of doctors who perform abortions? Not only do good Christians commit the MURDERS other good Christians aid and assist the MURDERERS in their escape attempts. Ever hear of Northern Ireland? Two churches based on Chritianity have been killing, maiming and terrorizing each other for centuries. How about Jim Jones and the followers he had. A man proclaiming to be a minister and follower of Jesus's teaching kills a congressman and then convinces his followers to commit suicide by drinking cyanide tainted kool-aid. Those that won't drink are shot. How about David Koresh and his followers in Waco? He was a devote reader of the Bible and in fact thought he was Jesus. Through his understanding he was lead to heavily arm his followers, kill federal agents, and covnince many to die a hellish firey death in the struggle.

    There are many more examples of what Christianity or those who were supposedly believers in it have done over the centuries. So before we throw too many stones about anothers religion we had better close the shutters to prtoect our glass house.

    I am a Christian and regularly attend Church. But I go with open eyes and open ears to hear the true teachings of the Church.

    I was and am offended by the actions of the Muslim firefighters for tearing down that patriotic poster. But I refuse to get involved in the hate all Muslims (a.k.a. anybody from the middle east) misguided emotions of a fringe few.

    I also am not some peacenick leftover from the 60's. I support our military in its actions to try and stop the terrorists in their tracks. But, I refuse to revel in the deaths and mayhem that it causes. I see them only as a necessary evil in order to end this.


    skirrits,

    Are you really an ordained minister? What faith preaches the type of stuff you spewed out in your message.

    Take care and stay safe,

    FyredUp
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  10. #10
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    I realize what yall are saying here but if they choose to be a part of a religion from a part of the world that is harboring these ******* terrorists it is just as bad. Its the same as saying all ppl that live in the mid-east aren't bad ppl. If they choose to live in countries that harnor these terrorists and dont do nething about it, it is just as bad as being the terrorists themselves.
    LADIES LOVE ME.
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    "I PLEDGE ALLEGIANCE TO THIS FLAG, IF THAT BOTHERS YOU WELL THATS TOO BAD!" AARON TIPPIN

    If you wish to burn our flag please remember to wrap yourself in it first!!!

    ALL SOUTHERNERS ARE EXEMPT FROM ANY AND ALL OF MY YANKEE COMMENTS ON ANY AND ALL FORUMS.

    THE SOUTH WILL RISE AGAIN!!!

  11. #11
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    Fireman George, I like your ideas.

    Point is, it is time to let these "priveledged few" that are offended by the flag of this great nation know that their views are just that: their views. No amount of crying and whining should take our flag off of a truck or a wall just because they are "offended". Start complaining that these guys views hamper your ability to work with them, to trust them. They are what they are: somebody that wants everyone else to bow down to their wishes and give them something for free.

    Minnfire, man, sorry you got lost. Read in the (parenthesis). I have nothing against Islam, just anti-American Muslims. If you need some guidance, I know this cool dude that is the Way, the Truth and the Light.

    As far as Islam being a peaceful religion, I am sure it is. But I am having more trouble believing it as each day goes by watching how they treat their own people (women especially) and their leaders dis-ing this great nation. Strict compliance to tyranny, religious or not, is not my idea of peace.

    After all, as the Ad Council commercial goes:

    I am an American.
    Peace,
    TROLL

  12. #12
    Forum Member BucksEng91's Avatar
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    Hmmm...last time I checked (which, admittedly, was yesterday, in church - maybe something has changed in the last 24 hours) Christians have not been trying to fly airplanes into buildings full of innocent people.

    Last time I checked, Christians were not rallying and partying in the streets in support of abortion-clinic doctor killers.

    Last time I checked, mainstream Christian leaders (even some of our so-called 'fundamentalists') were not calling for holy wars to murder Muslim "infidel" women and children of other countries.

    Last time I checked, Christians weren't training 8-year olds in terrorist camps so they could strap high explosives to themselves and go blow up a building full of "infidels".

    Last time I checked, the radical Christian sects that advocate race war and killing in the name of God have not taken over whole governments. In fact, they're marginalized to the point that they're the butt of jokes, and rightfully so. They have less than zero input and effect on American thinking, culture, or government. And good f*cking riddance.

    In our attempt to bend over backwards to appease the sensitivities of those of the Muslim faith, we run the risk of ignoring the very real and very present danger not only to our country as an institution and bulwark of freedom, but to us personally, as individuals and to our children. I want to hear American Muslim leaders state unequivocally that Bin Laden and his henchmen are evil. I want to hear them repudiate them as anti-Islam, anti-God, and anti-Koran. But they've been virtually silent, or they've spoken equivocally, hemming and hawing, choosing their words carefully. This should tell us something.

    And when someone starts talking about Christianity in a way that suggests ANY moral or other equivalence between its marginalized, joked about lunatic fringe and the organized, state-supported, well-funded, and widely celebrated (in places like Pakistan an Indonesia) mass murderers that killed our citizens, it's particularly repugnant and ignorant.

    Best estimates are that a full 10% to 15% of the total Muslim population of the world are now under the sway of radical Islamicism. We don't need to be solicitous or fawning over Islam to demonstrate our open-mindedness. America, with all its rough edges, is still, bar none, the best DEFINITION we have of open-mindedness in this world. We certainly don't need celebrities lecturing and chastizing us daily against engaging in "anti-Muslim hatred", as if we are en-masse attacking mosques. What we need is a strong sense of realism here. The overwhelming majority of Americans have it now - the bitter dose of reality we got on 9/11 woke a lot of people up.

    Don't start becoming one of these nannys, constantly lecturing us about how Islam is "peaceful". We get it, already. Now let's worry about the ones that aren't so peaceful. And marginalize the assh*les like the human trash in Miami, Albany, and Washington. And pressure Muslim leaders worldwide to condemn these acts unequivocally and unconditionally.
    "Let's roll." - Todd Beamer, one of a group of American soldiers who handed the terrorists their first defeat.

    Joe Black

    The opinions expressed are mine and mine alone (but you can borrow them )and may not reflect those of any organization with which I am associated (but then again, they just may not be thinking clearly).

  13. #13
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    My friend FyredUp:

    What part of what I "spewed" do you take offense with? I did try to interject some "humor" when I suggested a "sex change operation," simply aluding to the fact that perhaps he should live in Afghanistan under the oppressiveness of a woman.

    I don't agree with your views of what "Christianity" has done in time past, i.e., you seem to make Christianity to be a religion of war, not love. In my brief post, nowhere did I infer that Islam is not a religion of peace. In fact, I did not even mention religion, other than to say I do not "wear my robes into a structure fire," a rather simplistic aluision to a firefighter wearing a full beard under a SCBA mask.

    Sorry if I offended you. I stand my ground, however, of the manner in which this fellow obtained his job AND my "leftover" thoughts from the 60s of "America.......love it or leave it."

    Skirrits (Episcopal)

    Skirrits

  14. #14
    Senior Member hctrouble25's Avatar
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    FP&LS Guy: I hear you and what you are saying, but understand that before the Taliban took control in 1996 these types of punishments were starting to be condemned by the Middle Eastern Society - women were working, driving, wearing shorts, showing their faces, etc. The Taliban has a lot of control over the people of Afganistan and other countries and they preach that these punishments are what their religion has taught them. And a large majority of their government is affiliated with the Taliban. Remember that they are forced into voting, they don't work the way we do in America. Many of those in the Taliban are much the same as some of those in our religious cults that teach that God wants them to take their own lives, do drugs, kill others, etc. It has nothing to do with the entire nation...but rather a radical group that has control over many in these countries. We certainly don't believe that all Americans are part of or believe in the ways of the KKK, and I don't believe that all of Afghanistan or other Middle Eastern countries believe in what the Taliban has done to our people. There are good and bad apples in every group of people. Even in our own fire service we have bad apples that we don't agree with - arsonists, etc. So while I understand the anger that many feel I also understand that we have to judge each person individually. If I ran into Osama I would have no problem putting a bullet between his eyes, because his actions and words have spoken for themselves...he is a killer, a coward, and a smelly, turban wearing, lying, rat bastard. He has made himself enemy #1 of the American People..and he preaches that all those who believe in Jihad should be willing to die for this cause...and I think he might just get to do exactly that.
    Never forget those who went before and sacrified to make us better and stronger as a fire service and a nation. 09-11-01 forever etched in time and our memories. God Speed Boys!

  15. #15
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    Brothers and sisters, we ignore or gloss over the threat of radical Islam, and its inroads into mainstream Islam, at our own peril. Take a read, if you have a few minutes, of this piece by NY Post columnist Rod Dreher...and you'll see why I get so p*ssed off with people lecturing me about "peaceful" Islam:

    ---------------------------

    We can sit around making diversity quilts and thinking happy thoughts, or we can, with charity, commit ourselves to soberly assessing the historical and present-day reality of "peaceful" Islam, and its relations with non-Muslims.

    Which brings us to Oprah. Last Friday, she devoted her program to "Islam 101," purportedly a crash course in the Mohammedan faith for her vast television audience of clueless Americans. It was grossly imbalanced and extremely dishonest. In fact, given how many Christians and other non-Muslims are horrifically persecuted today by Muslims in the name of Islam, it amounted to offensive propaganda.

    Oprah called Islam "the most misunderstood of the three major religions" — yet did her best to add to the confusion by candy-coating the complicated truth about the Muslim faith. If you were to take Oprah's show as your guide to Islam, you would think Muslims were basically Episcopalians in veils and turbans.

    Take her interview with Queen Rania of Jordan, a lovely, modern young woman who looks more at home in the pages of Vogue than in a hijab. The queen said that Islam "doesn't impose anything" on people — an absurd lie. Oprah asked her about the so-called "honor killings" of women in Jordan, murders committed by men against women in their families who are believed to have shamed the clan. For example, some young women who have been raped are in turn murdered by their male relatives for having stained the family's honor.

    Progressive forces, supported by the palace and Jordan's Islamic religious establishment, tried to outlaw these killings in 1999, but were thwarted by the conservative Islamist party in Parliament. Queen Rania, reflecting establishment opinion, told Oprah that honor killings were a "cultural" phenomenon.

    If that's true, then why have pre-Islamic Arabic tribal customs been taken up and spread throughout the Muslim world? Moreover, many Islamic religious leaders endorse them, or lesser violent punishment of women for the same dubious offenses.

    Anyway, if one grants, for the sake of argument, the queen's contention that the Koran doesn't endorse honor killings, so what? Clearly very many Muslims believe honor killings are Islamic doctrine, and act on those beliefs — and we must be aware of that, and let that reality inform our judgment. If one were a Jew in Torquemada's Spain, it would be useless to be told that the Inquisition was a betrayal of Christianity. Theological disputes would be ancillary to the question of survival: what would matter would be how the local Christians interpreted their faith.

    Queen Rania's dismissal of Muslim behavior that brings discredit upon Islam as un-Islamic brings to mind the bankrupt apologies leftists made during the Cold War for Communism. When the wickedness of the Soviets, or other Communist forces, could not be denied, it was claimed that these people did not represent "true" Communism. They may have actually believed that, but those who would be victims of real Communists, not theoretical Communists, didn't have that luxury.

    Dr. Maleeha Lodhi, the Pakistani ambassador to the United States, turned up to say that "There is nothing in Islam that does not accord women equal rights." Oprah did not ask her to name one Muslim society in which women enjoy equal rights in the Western sense, because the ambassador would have had to remain silent. Or perhaps not: she had no trouble lying when she asserted that it was "absolutely untrue" that some people in her nation had taken to the streets to celebrate the September 11 attack.

    Other quotes, from the program (available at www.oprah.com):

    — "Muslims do not think that there is a non-Islamic world out there that we have to conquer. That is not the concept in Islam. Our job is to get to know one another, and the more we do that the better off we are."

    — "The main thing we would like non-Muslims to know about our religion is that we're not so different from them."

    — "I would like to reassure the American public that Islam does not preach violence."

    — "Islam and Christianity and Judaism, and all the world's religions share a common heritage. We come from the same root. And our prophets and the characters in our holy books are the same. In Islam, all the religions are permitted to exist in peace with these others until Judgement Day."

    That Oprah let these statements be broadcast unchallenged is appalling, an absurd fantasy that ignores the enormous suffering actual Muslims are inflicting on non-Muslim populations worldwide. "Wherever one looks along the perimeter of Islam, Muslims have problems living peaceably with their neighbors," Harvard's Huntington wrote. "Muslims make up about one-fifth of the world's population but in the 1990s they have been far more involved in intergroup violence than the people of any other civilization. The evidence is overwhelming."

    In Sudan, the Muslim government in Khartoum imposed Islamic law nationwide in 1993, and has killed 2 million Sudanese Christians and animists, and enslaved countless more, in an attempt to Islamize the country. Coptic Christians in Egypt, whose presence in that country predates the arrival of Islam, have been slaughtered by fundamentalist Muslims, with authorities doing little or nothing to stop them.

    In the Philippines and East Timor, Christians are being massacred by Muslims. Churches and Christian homes in Nigeria are being burned, and Christians murdered, by Muslim extremists. Arab Christians are oppressed by Muslims in the Holy Land, too. In Nazareth, Muslims are building a mosque just steps from the Basilica of the Annunciation, and make no secret of their intent to provoke and intimidate Christians. An imam in Gaza earlier this year broadcast a sermon over Palestinian Authority radio calling on Muslims to murder Christians and Jews as their Islamic duty. The ancient Christian presence in many Arab lands — Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, among others — has been decimated in the last century by Muslim persecution.

    The list goes on and on. While it is true that there are relatively peaceful Muslims who wish us no harm — the Sufis of Turkey come to mind, but there are others — it is unarguable that very many Muslims and their leaders despise non-Muslims, attack us rhetorically in religious terms, and wish to see us die for our infidelity to Allah. To these Muslims, many of whom are Wahhabi (the Muslim sect that, according to Islam scholar Stephen Schwartz, accounts for 80 percent of the imams in the United States today), there are two worlds: that of Islam, and that of war. No compromise is possible between them.

    What can possibly be gained from ignoring this ugly reality? Nothing — and a great deal to be lost. As Andrew Sullivan notes in Sunday's New York Times Magazine, our leaders' "laudable" post-9/11 efforts to discourage seeing the conflict in religious terms "doesn't hold up under inspection."

    "The religious dimension of this conflict is central to its meaning," Sullivan writes, adding that it would be "naive to ignore in Islam a deep thread of intolerance toward unbelievers, especially if those unbelievers are believed to be a threat to the Islamic world."

    It's naive to ignore it on a macro level, and it's naive to ignore it on a micro level, too. We know that the Muslims who carried out the 9/11 attacks lived for years peacefully among other Americans. We also know that they couldn't have carried out their operations without the support of others. Further, we know that some mosques and Islamic institutions in this country have been helpful to the jihadists. Believing that the threat to America comes simply from foreign Islamic extremists may make Oprah viewers feel better, but it's dangerous — and it lets moderate, patriotic American Muslims evade their responsibility to repudiate and root out fundamentalists among them. In Sunday's New York Times, a reporter wrote of interviews she had with Muslim American students right here in my own Brooklyn neighborhood. One of the male students said, on the record, that he would abandon the United States and give his own life to back an "observant Muslim who is fighting for an Islamic cause." Oprah honey, this is called sedition, and if there is an Islamic fifth column in this country, the American public needs to know about it.

    American Muslims understandably feel pressured now to show the non-Muslim majority that they are no threat, and well-meaning dolts like Oprah are key to this effort. Watching Oprah's "Islam 101" program, I thought of the Lebanese Catholics at my church, who stopped me after a prayer service for the World Trade Center dead to talk, on the record, about the anti-Arab persecution they feared coming.

    They all said they knew plenty of Muslims here in New York who were peace-loving people, and that it would be wrong to think ill of them. I asked these Arab Christians if these Muslims supported terrorist organizations, monetarily or otherwise. Every one of them said yes, sheepishly. After the interview was over, the group asked me not to use their last names. They were afraid of being physically attacked by Muslims in their neighborhoods — this, for standing up for America in print.

    "That's amazing," I said to them. "You are all Christians living in the United States of America, yet you are afraid to have your names attached to patriotic statements, out of fear that your Muslim neighbors, the same people you are defending to me, will attack you. What does that say about the reality of Islam in America?"

    They did not answer me, because they had no answer. Think about that next time you're told that Islam is a religion of peace. There's more to the story than what Oprah is telling you.
    "Let's roll." - Todd Beamer, one of a group of American soldiers who handed the terrorists their first defeat.

    Joe Black

    The opinions expressed are mine and mine alone (but you can borrow them )and may not reflect those of any organization with which I am associated (but then again, they just may not be thinking clearly).

  16. #16
    Forum Member BucksEng91's Avatar
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    Here's another eye-opener. Can we please stop with the patronizing lecturing about the "peacefulness" of Islam?

    This is by Jamie Glazov, a political essayist.

    -----------------------------

    ON FRIDAY, October 5, Oprah devoted her program to "Islam 101," which, I think, was supposed to be a crash course on the Islamic religion.

    I’m still confused.

    One of the guests, Dr. Maleeha Lodhi, the Pakistani ambassador to the U.S., explained that, "There is nothing in Islam that does not accord women equal rights and respect. Islam encourages women to participate and be a productive member of society."


    Another guest, Professor Akbar Ahmed, who served as the Pakistani Ambassador to Great Britain and is now the Chair of Islamic Studies at American University in Washington D.C., stated that there was a "commonality" between Islam, Christianity and Judaism in the "emphasis" on "family life."

    Oprah didn’t challenge these statements.

    After the program, I was very traumatized. I tried to synthesize Oprah’s show with everything I have read in the Qur’an – and in other Islamic texts. I failed miserably.

    I’m very confused.

    In the Qur’an, Surah 2:28 tells us that men are superior to women. Surah 4:34 commands a man to beat his wife as soon as she shows any sign of disobedience to his orders. The verse reads, "As for these women, fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart and scourge them."

    The Prophet Mohammed was kind enough to leave no misunderstanding on this matter in the hadiths, which are his Sunnah (sayings and doings) as recorded meticulously by his companions. They are considered to have the same authenticity as the Qur’an by the overwhelming majority of the Muslim world.

    In his hadith in volume 3:826 of the Sahih Al-Bukhari, Imam Al-Bukhari quotes Mohammed’s order to the husband regarding his wife: "Hang up your scourge where your wife can see it."

    The Prophet, however, was loving enough to command that, according to Imam Kitab al-Nikah’s hadith No. 1850 in The Book of Marriage, "you shall not slap her on the face, nor revile her, nor desert her except within the house."

    It’s a good thing that some contemporary Islamic teachers are a little more liberal on this issue. Abdul-latif Mushtahiri is a prime example. In his book, You Ask and Islam Answers, he instructs on page 94 that, while he is all up for a good wife-beating, it is a good idea to stop short of any broken bones or shedding of blood. He patiently explains that, "Many a wife belongs to this querulous type and requires this sort of punishment to bring her to her senses!"

    I’m confused.

    Is this the "family life" that Professor Ahmed was referring to on Oprah in regard to the "commonality" between Islam, Christianity and Judaism? Or was he referring, perhaps, to Prophet Mohammed’s instruction to husbands, quoted in Imam Kitab al-Nikah’s hadith No. 1850, that, "It is that you shall give her food when you have taken your food, that you shall clothe her when you have clothed yourself"?

    I wonder what comment Oprah’s guests would make about Al-Bukhari’s hadith, in volume 3:826 of the Sahih Al-Bukhari, that quotes Mohammed saying that women are deficient in mind and religion? Is this why Surah 4:3 allows a man to marry up to four wives at the same time, so that the other three can make up for the deficiency of the individual retarded one?

    When the Pakistani ambassador told Oprah that "Islam encourages women to participate and be a productive member of society," was she referring to Surah 2:223, which states that a wife is a sex object for her husband? It’s quite a poetic verse: "Your wives are as a tilth unto you, so approach your tilth when or how ye will."

    Aside from having more than nine wives, the Prophet Mohammed married six-year old Aisha and consummated his marriage with her when she was nine. Al-Bukhari’s Sahih Al-Bukhari is filled with references (i.e. vols. 5:236, 7:64, 7:65, 7:88) to this inspiring ingredient of Islam that all Muslims must accept.

    I’m very confused.

    Is Oprah planning to have an "Islam 202"? Is that when she will ask her guests about six-year old Aisha? Or is it when she will recommend the book Rage Against the Veil – the heartbreaking account about how Islam mutilates the lives and souls of women and children? The book tells the story of Homa Darabi, an Iranian female doctor and human rights activist, who committed suicide, by self-immolation, in a crowded public square in Tehran in 1994 to bring awareness to the nightmarish realities that, for some reason, were forced into invisibility on Oprah’s "Islam 101."
    "Let's roll." - Todd Beamer, one of a group of American soldiers who handed the terrorists their first defeat.

    Joe Black

    The opinions expressed are mine and mine alone (but you can borrow them )and may not reflect those of any organization with which I am associated (but then again, they just may not be thinking clearly).

  17. #17
    Forum Member BucksEng91's Avatar
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    Couldn't resist. Here's one more by Glazov:

    -------------------------

    OPRAH’S CRASH COURSE program "Islam 101", which aired on October 5, still has me reeling.

    In Oprah’s interview with Queen Rania of Jordan, the Queen affirmed that Islam "doesn't impose anything" on people.

    Professor Akbar Ahmed, meanwhile, who is a former Pakistani Ambassador to Great Britain and is now the Chair of Islamic Studies at American University in Washington D.C., stated that the terrorist attacks are, "Not Islam, because Islam clearly says that the killing of one innocent life is like killing all of humanity. It is just not allowed in Islam."

    On another part of the show, the statement was made that, "Muslims do not think that there is a non-Islamic world out there that we have to conquer. That is not the concept in Islam. Our job is to get to know one another, and the more we do that the better off we are."

    Oprah did not challenge any of these remarks.

    So, um, Islam "doesn’t impose anything" on people? I can’t help from wondering: what would happen to a woman in a country like Iran or Afghanistan who, let’s say, just felt like taking her veil or burqa off – and did so? What would happen to a Muslim in one of these countries who just decided to make it public knowledge that he/she didn’t feel like being a Muslim anymore?

    This isn’t really a brain-stormer.

    The teachings of Islam are not just ethical guidelines; they are binding laws with severe punishments attached to them – especially under Islamic states. These punishments range from public whipping to chopping off of body parts to beheading.

    Let’s not overlook the foundation of this reality: in the Qur’an, Surah 9:12 instructs that a Muslim apostate must be killed.

    In other words, Queen Rania is right: Islam doesn’t impose anything on anyone; the little catch is that everyone living under an Islamic state just better follow the rules, that’s all.

    According to the Qur’an, there shouldn't be another religion besides Islam in an Islamic country (let alone anywhere else in the world). That’s why Surah 3:85 states that: "If anyone desires a religion other than Islam, never will it be accepted of him." That’s why Surah 2:193 instructs that there should be no separation between Church and State. And that’s why Surah 4:59 teaches that there should be no opposition party either.

    Sounds like a really fun place to live doesn’t it?

    I am fascinated by the statement made on Oprah that, "Our [the Muslims’] job is to get to know one another [people of other faiths], and the more we do that the better off we are."

    Is this why the Qur’an tells its faithful (i.e. Surah 5:54) that Muslims must not take Jews or Christians for friends?

    I am even more intrigued with the statement that, "Muslims do not think that there is a non-Islamic world out there that we have to conquer."

    Is this why the Qur’an instructs Muslims to attack and kill non-Muslims as a means of achieving world hegemony under Islam? Is that why Surah 9:5 tells the faithful: "When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters [non-Muslims] wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them."

    Islam views the world as divided between the House of Peace (Dar es Salaam), which is Islamic, and the House of War (Dar el-Harb), which is non-Islamic. World peace, according to Islam, is achieved only when the world is subjected to Dar es Salaam.

    I guess it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out why Muslims have a little bit of a problem creating a democracy, let alone living peacefully with non-Muslims.

    In Uganda, Idi Amin slaughtered 300,000 of his own people, mostly Christians. Why did he do this? Hint: the genocide occurred only after Amin embraced Islam.

    At the start of World War I, Muslim Turks massacred over 1.5 million Armenian Christians. Why? Hint: It’s the same reason the Muslim government in Khartoum has killed two million Christians and animists since imposing Islamic law nationwide in Sudan in 1993.

    So what Islam are Queen Rania and Professor Ahmed referring to? Is there another Islam I haven’t heard about? Or are Rania and Ahmed basically hinting to us that we shouldn’t take history – or the Qur’an – too seriously?

    Don’t get me wrong, I think Oprah’s "Islam 101" scored very high points in theatrical quality. It’s just that in the context of integrity, it might have left something to be desired.
    "Let's roll." - Todd Beamer, one of a group of American soldiers who handed the terrorists their first defeat.

    Joe Black

    The opinions expressed are mine and mine alone (but you can borrow them )and may not reflect those of any organization with which I am associated (but then again, they just may not be thinking clearly).

  18. #18
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    The point I was trying to make in my earlier post was simply this...radicals or extremists can take the written word and corrupt it to mean whatever they want. Whether that is in the Bible and Christian beliefs or whatever. I am not familiar with the writings of the Koran(?), I am only familiar with the few Muslims that I know. They are gentle, friendly, hard working people and that is my perception. Perhaps I am wrong and they are the exception and not what is the overall attitude.

    I still refuse to be involved in the hate all Muslims mind set. I will hate the actions of those Muslim extremists that embrace violence, sexual degradation and murder of women, and defeat the cause of human rights and dignity. I can no more hate all Muslims than I could hate all Germans for what the Nazi's did. Not every German was a Nazi and not every Muslim is a terrorist or an extremist.

    I am not sure what the effect is that you hope to gain. Are we to take to the streets and avenge the WTC and Pentagon by attacking Muslims who live here in the U.S.? Isn't this the same terror that these few have met in their homelands? Perhaps we should just clear the country of anyone who ancestors were not originally from here. That would create a country totally devoid of foreigners. Of course that means no one would be here other than Native Americans.

    Believe what you will for this is the United States of America and free thought and expression are still welcome here for the most part, dispite the teachings of political correctness and the overbearing morality of the radical moral right.

    Take care and stay safe,

    FyredUp
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  19. #19
    Forum Member BucksEng91's Avatar
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    FyredUp -

    Who here, exactly, has called for anyone to take to the streets and attack Muslims? That's a little extreme accusation, wouldn't you say?

    See, this is exactly the mindset that I'm talking about. We need to have our eyes open. We DO NOT need people with little pollyanna attitudes, wringing their hands over how "honest, gentle" Muslims are being oppressed.

    I have news for you - it simply ain't happening. There have been some idiots who think it's open season on anyone of Middle Eastern descent, sure, but we always have that. There will always be violent people who take their lust for violence out on targets of opportunity. But to characterize it as some kind of mass movement is insulting and condescending to the vast majority of Americans.

    The point I'm trying to make is this - the American public does not need Hollywood, politicians, or God forbid firefighters fr*gging LECTURING them about being nice to Muslims. It's not as if there is a tidal wave of violence against Muslims. On the contrary - we're breaking our backs bending over backwards so as not to appear discriminatory. Well, f*ck that. Just stop it with the hand-wringing.

    The reality is that we as a country and as a civilization are not very popular with a large segment of the Muslim world. We underestimate their hatred for the purpose of political correctness at our own peril.
    "Let's roll." - Todd Beamer, one of a group of American soldiers who handed the terrorists their first defeat.

    Joe Black

    The opinions expressed are mine and mine alone (but you can borrow them )and may not reflect those of any organization with which I am associated (but then again, they just may not be thinking clearly).

  20. #20
    Forum Member BucksEng91's Avatar
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    Hate to have to keep making this point, but try this one on for size:

    ------------------------
    Muslims love Bin Laden

    Daniel Pipes
    New York Post
    October 22, 2001

    What do Muslims think of Osama bin Laden?

    Ask Westerners and you'll hear how marginal he is. President Bush says bin Laden represents a "fringe form of Islamic extremism . . . rejected by Muslim scholars and the vast majority of Muslim clerics." American specialists on Islam agree. "Osama bin Laden is to Islam like Timothy McVeigh is to Christianity," says Mark Juergensmeyer of the University of California. Karen Armstrong, author of a bestselling book about Islam, reports that the "vast majority of Muslims . . . are horrified by the atrocity of Sept. 11."

    Well, that "vast majority" is well hidden and awfully quiet, if it even exists. With the exception of one government-staged anti-bin Laden demonstration in Pakistan and very few prominent Islamic scholars, hardly anyone publicly denounces him. The only Islamic scholar in Egypt who unreservedly condemns the Sept. 11 suicide operations admits he is completely isolated.

    American officials are still waiting for Muslim politicians to speak up. "It'd be nice if some leaders came out and said that the idea the United States is targeting Islam is absurd," notes one U.S. diplomat.They don't because the Muslim world is bursting with adulation for the Saudi militant.

    * "Long live bin Laden" shout 5,000 demonstrators in the southern Philippines.

    * In Pakistan, bin Laden's face sells merchandise and massive street rallies have left two persons dead. Ten thousand march in the capitals of Bangladesh and Indonesia.

    * In northern Nigeria, bin Laden has (according to Reuters) "achieved iconic status" and his partisans set off religious riots leading to 200 deaths.

    * Pro-bin Laden demonstrations took place even in Mecca, where overt political activism is unheard of.

    Everywhere, The Washington Post reports, Muslims cheer bin Laden on "with almost a single voice." The Internet buzzes with odes to him as a man "of solid faith and power of will." A Saudi explains that "Osama is a very, very, very, very good Muslim." A Kenyan adds: "Every Muslim is Osama bin Laden." "Osama is not an individual, but a name of a holy war," reads a banner in Kashmir. In perhaps the most extravagant statement, one Pakistani declared that "Bin Laden is Islam. He represents Islam." In France, Muslim youths chant bin Laden's name as they throw rocks at non-Muslims.

    Palestinians are especially enamoured. According to Hussam Khadir, a member of Arafat's Fatah party, "Bin Laden today is the most popular figure in the West Bank and Gaza, second only to Arafat." A 10-year-old girl announces that she loves him like a father. Nor is she alone. "Everybody loves Osama bin Laden at this time. He is the most righteous man in the whole world," declares a Palestinian woman. A Palestinian Authority policeman calls him "the greatest man in the world & our Messiah" even as he (reluctantly) disperses students who march in solidarity with the Saudi.

    Survey research helps us understand these sentiments. In the Palestinian Authority, a Bir Zeit poll found that 26 percent of Palestinians consider the Sept. 11 attacks consistent with Islamic law. In Pakistan, a Gallup found a nearly identical 24 percent reaching this conclusion.

    Even those who consider the attacks an act of terrorism (64 percent of both Palestinians and Pakistanis) show respect for these as acts of political defiance and technical prowess. "Of course we're upset that so many died in New York. But at the same time, we're in awe of what happened," said a young Cairene woman.

    An online survey of Indonesians found 50 percent seeing bin Laden as a "justice fighter" and 35 percent a terrorist. More broadly, I estimate that bin Laden enjoys the emotional support of half the Muslim world.

    That America's politicans and experts on Islam insist on seeing bin Laden as an isolated McVeigh-like figure is worrisome; they miss the danger that bin Laden's militant Islam poses to existing governments - perhaps their greatest challenge of recent times. Their fear of him goes far to explain why the authorities so heavily discourage pro-bin Laden sentiments (forbidding posters of him, arresting militant Islamic leaders, blocking street gatherings, closing schools and universities, patrolling streets with loaded machine guns, and even shooting demonstrators).

    The wide and deep Muslim enthusiasm for bin Laden is an extremely important development that needs to be understood, not ignored.
    "Let's roll." - Todd Beamer, one of a group of American soldiers who handed the terrorists their first defeat.

    Joe Black

    The opinions expressed are mine and mine alone (but you can borrow them )and may not reflect those of any organization with which I am associated (but then again, they just may not be thinking clearly).

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