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  1. #41
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    I read Trevino's article and was surprised by the comment. I think he said it because he has no idea how to classify his new department. I feel sorry for the guy. He is a fish out of water. Here 4+ months and still has not made one appointment. He has been to 20+ greater alarms in the same amount of time. Your not in Kansas anymore Chief!!!!!! No offence to anyone from Kansas. Though the rumor is he is about to make HUGE changes (hoods, full turnouts, ICS training, new command staff……&#8230 . Bring them on. Anything is better than doing nothing. But, the poor guy has no staff to work with. Promotions over the last 5 years based on everything BUT a test has put him with few quality players.

    As far as the East vs West thing, there are differences. Most of the subtle differences have been posted already. One I have noticed is the perception about fighting fire. On the East it tends to be viewed as a simple, cut and dry job. Get in.....get out. On the West this job is viewed as a "science". It must be broken down and organized(ICS), then analyzed and then dealt with. Whatever system you prescribe to is your choice. Good luck!!


  2. #42
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    I will try to keep this helpful to the original question on the topic starter post. My point of view will try to be from the standpoint of what can be taught in some educational forums and unfortunately purveyed in the media. My PERSONAL opinion before the flamers might get upset is I am saddened to see such a split in feelings amongst the fire “forum” here so soon after these catastrophic events – I was hoping the feelings I saw for awhile on the side of togetherness would last MUCH longer – The only EC “vs” WC idea I care to see now is the time zones – everything else is a subjective fodder for those entrenched in negativity.

    East Coast “vs” West Coast when I started in the fire service (1987) was a generalized notion of an older style (NY, MA,)“vs” a more rapid progression of newer styles (later to become Seattle’s EMS and Phoenix’s overall FD). The media would propagate these generalizations by always showing the most dramatic footage they could of EC incidents on both national and local news (example: the famous FDNY rope rescue off the burning building) of the greater 5-8 alarm fires – and unfortunately they would never show the whole story – they would always seem to show the guys with the boots rolled down, no BAs, etc. fighting the fire from a ladder/tiller or at the apparatus fighting the fire externally. While the usual footage seen on local news stations here in the Bay Area would show SFFD on their latest fire incidents in the same way – staffing on the roof with no BAs on of a working fire, the classic pics of the injured FFs overcome with smoke while inside the buildings, etc. So when reviewed in the classroom the critique would always go over how there were no BAs in use, turnouts not fully worn, Firehouse Magazines articles about the need for the improvements in the scene management systems, blah, blah, blah. Two larger fires in SF in the mid 90s showed some nice flamage from an apartment complex and business – with FFs getting engulfed in smoke fighting valiantly with hose lines and of course – no BAs.

    Further it with negative articles of political issues and overall large problems in NY (inside examples can be seen in posts of the 3rd Watch forum, outside examples in older issues of Firehouse, and thorough explanations on the NIOSH website regarding FF inj/LODDs) “vs” the commonplace articles of Brunacini’s plans and outcomes of progressing his department forward, along with copies of plans forwarded to some cities following the Seattle EMS provision.

    More on media – a lay person will see the cover of Firehouse and see that pic of an LA Captain jumping thru the flames of a roof fire with a BA and turnouts on…jump back a few years to another cover pic of a greater alarm fire in NY where the entire truck crew on the roof and ladder, and the crew coming out of the interior was half-protected in a variety of ways – all actively in suppression.

    NOW…we know that is not the whole story on any event the media covers – but it is what one sees.

    So…now take this SFFD “outside” guy who might have been educated on the West Coast and been subjected to a biased media and possibly biased educators – and the result can be a highly publicized statement such as that.

    Just a long theory, no jabs intended – I hope his SFFD statement stirs nothing but a debate here – and not in the media. And along with the last post before this - that is almost verbatim what I heard in a FPT class once...

  3. #43
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    Originally posted by Staylow:
    On the East it tends to be viewed as a simple, cut and dry job. Get in.....get out. On the West this job is viewed as a "science". It must be broken down and organized(ICS), then analyzed and then dealt with.
    Thats the part I meant....

  4. #44
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    No wonder thay had to find an outside chief, accoring to you their are no real chief officers.

    [ 11-29-2001: Message edited by: the7tower ]


  5. #45
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    Originally posted by the7tower:
    No wonder thay had to find an outside chief, accoring to you their are no real chief officers.
    Sorry to sound confused - which response was that directed at? And what does the Vegas reference have to do with this? Is that your department?

  6. #46
    IACOJ Agitator Adze39's Avatar
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    For all those who believe the7tower is LHS and for those who have doubts...check out his reply in the forum about Quints. Left no doubt in my mind...
    IACOJ Agitator
    Fightin' Da Man Since '78!

  7. #47
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    For those of us not up on the prior screen name info - who is this LHS/7tower guy?

  8. #48
    Forum Member DaFAO's Avatar
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    To the kind gentleman wondering about large departments, here's your answer on Tokyo Fire:

    289 Stations
    17923 sworn firefighters
    485 engines
    82 ladders
    6 squirts
    23 heavy rescues
    67 foam/chemical trucks
    184 medic units
    9 boats
    6 helicopters

    I'm not sure if it's the biggest, but that's certainly big enough for me...

    7tower=LHS*...The comment about Las Vegas Fire did it for me...

    My opinions only.

    AGS-SGA 091101

  9. #49
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    Bucks, I got a little miffed about the LODD thing after reading 7towers ramblings. I'd be happy to have a few beers with you and tell you about how my Dept is so great and then you'd tell me how great your Dept is and you know what you'd end up with by the end of the night? Two drunk firemen lauging their *****'s off because they couldn't walk 10 feet without falling on their faces.And the only time you'd see me standing outside is at closing time!

  10. #50
    Forum Member BucksEng91's Avatar
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    Sounds good to me, San Diego!!



    There is, of course, very little animosity between East Coast and West Coast departments. We all do the job. But little boys like 7tower, who still hasn't clarified where he's from ("Southeast" or west coast), like to stir the sh*t.

    If I offended you or p*ssed you off with my post, it wasn't intended to do so, and certainly wasn't personal - so I apologize if you felt I was attacking your department or your west coast bretheren. What I really wanted to try to do was to engage 7tower in a little discussion, but it turns out he's just a little bi-atch.

    Anyway, you stay safe. And I will be absolutely sure to let you know if and when I'm coming west. My job takes me around the country.
    "Let's roll." - Todd Beamer, one of a group of American soldiers who handed the terrorists their first defeat.

    Joe Black

    The opinions expressed are mine and mine alone (but you can borrow them )and may not reflect those of any organization with which I am associated (but then again, they just may not be thinking clearly).

  11. #51
    Senior Member Dalmatian90's Avatar
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    For those asking,
    The7Tower, LHS, KA, Lovelock, multiple variations thereof, and a few more names I forget at the moment are screen names of Larry H. Stevens, the former editor of Fire Rescue Magazine.
    IACOJ Canine Officer
    20/50

  12. #52
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    I just read the Quint thread....without a doubt, 7Tower is the "Sybil" of the firehouse forums, Larry H. Stevens! His address says southeast, maybe the Southwest had enough 1000 alarm grass fires, burned out the area and he's looking for new territory to conquer! God help us all! Can I have an Amen from the Brothers and Sisters out there!

    Larry still hasn't told us why he had to leave Fire Rescue Magazine! I guess he's been to busy with Fire Apparatus News to tell us.

    We are still waiting, Larry. Come on, the suspense is killing us!

    [ 11-26-2001: Message edited by: Captain Gonzo ]
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  13. #53
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    I know that my post will be a little different than what the subject is about. I live in a small rural town in Texas. There is a large city nearby and we basically fight fire the same way. Yet, we use different tools. They use large amounts of water. We use lots of foam. We have a cafs unit on one of our units. They hardly ever use foam. We are in an area where water supplies are not as good as the big cities. We have to stretch our water. We have made some pretty good saves, with just one truck on the scene. We look at both the west and east coast departments for new inovations and try to put in use some from each area.
    We are not going to knock either area. I beleive that we as firefighters should use the equipment and methods that will work in our area. Maybe we should practice better fire prevention. What really matters is that firefighters are dedicated to helping their fellow citizens where ever they may be. We should all realize that as fire departments and fire fighters, we should use the standards from all the agencies that govern us as guidelines and use the best of them that will best fit our areas, East, west or the middle of the USA.
    Thanks for letting me spout off.
    Larry

  14. #54
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    Hey SD and Bucks, can I come too. I find myself in so Cal all the time!

    Capt, thanks for the note.
    This space for rent

  15. #55
    Forum Member BucksEng91's Avatar
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    Kyle -

    Absolutely! TWO stone age firefighters loose in San Diego!! What will 7Tower (bi-atch boy) think??

    "Let's roll." - Todd Beamer, one of a group of American soldiers who handed the terrorists their first defeat.

    Joe Black

    The opinions expressed are mine and mine alone (but you can borrow them )and may not reflect those of any organization with which I am associated (but then again, they just may not be thinking clearly).

  16. #56
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    Tower, have you ever been to a 1000 alarm grass fire?

    (No wonder thay had to find an outside chief, accoring to you their are no real chief officers.)

    There are very few because of the promotion process maintained over the last 5 years. Mario was hired under the same process, so I wonder if he too was the most qualified for the job. But, at least he came from Nevada. Right Larry?


    (Seattle isn't that much different than San Francisco, It didn't burn down when Mario was a chief there, so I doubt SF will either.)

    It is very different. And it wont be Mario who puts out any fires.


    (Gosh I feel for you guys, you're going to have to wear full turnouts.)

    I know, I think its terrible too.


    (Vegas has a lot more guys, better and more stations and all new gear. What is the worst that can happen, you only get half that.)

    Not in this city. They want us to cut our budget. Unless you think Mario can change the political system too? You can keep the new gear and equipment. That is not what puts out fires. The personell and training has to chainge in order to fix this department. And even with increased training a great number of personell will never be as qualified as they should be to do the job proficiently.


    (Don't feel sorry for Mario, he makes more than any other chief)

    I have to feel sorry for the guy. He is very sharp and has a desire to do good here. But, he was not given an accurate picture of what he has to face.

  17. #57
    Forum Member BucksEng91's Avatar
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    Somebody here was nice enough to send me a copy of the entire article. I'll post it here:

    Challenges for the chief

    Copyright 2001 The Chronicle Publishing Co.
    The San Francisco Chronicle...11/23/2001

    GIVEN THE San Francisco Fire Department's history of insular politics, racial and gender tensions, and fiscal inefficiencies, it is perhaps understandable that new fire chief Mario Trevino is moving in a very deliberative manner.
    The first chief in 135 years to be hired from outside of the department, Trevino inherits formidable challenges, including:

    -- How to eliminate budget overruns that last year included $ 13.8 million in overtime costs alone.

    -- How to recruit and retain a diverse workforce that -- after 30 years of legal wrangling -- now includes 40 percent minorities and 10 percent women? In 1998, a federal court ended a consent decree that monitored the department's hiring and promotional practices. Now, critics fear a relapse, citing the fact that there were no African Americans in the latest graduating class of 30 recruits.

    -- How to merge the city paramedic units into crews with firefighters who are skeptical of such consolidation.

    -- How to change the culture of a tradition-steeped department that has long been resistant to change.

    In a meeting with The Chronicle's editorial board last week, Trevino characterized the throwback culture he encountered as "the only east coast fire department that happens to be on the west coast."

    Now in his fourth month on the job, Trevino has been busily visiting stations, listening to the rank and file and developing a long-term plan that has been sorely lacking in the department. Trevino said a push for greater diversity will be one of his goals. "Diversity is not only a city priority," he said. "To me, it's a personal priority."

    Beneath Trevino's engaging personal style and methodical approach is a plainly stated determination to bring change to a department that has been adept at resisting it. His priorities and tactics appear sound. But he, as all chiefs, will be judged by results.
    "Let's roll." - Todd Beamer, one of a group of American soldiers who handed the terrorists their first defeat.

    Joe Black

    The opinions expressed are mine and mine alone (but you can borrow them )and may not reflect those of any organization with which I am associated (but then again, they just may not be thinking clearly).

  18. #58
    Forum Member BucksEng91's Avatar
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    So Trevino's biggest challenge is "diversity", huh?

    The biggest change that Trevino can think to bring to his "throwback" department is to lower standards to make sure that sub-standard performing minorities can get on the department. Beautiful. The public safety and the safety of other firefighters be damned...we have to worship at the altar of political correctness.

    What Trevino should be doing, when his lips aren't attached to the assh*les of the local "civil rights" leaders, is making sure that there is equal opportunity to take the tests, not that the outcomes are equal.

    Everyone who wants to apply should be able to do so, without discrimination. NOT everyone will pass, but apparently Trevino thinks that the color of your skin is a better indicator of the kind of firefighter you'll be, rather than your performance on the actual skills and written tests...

    SFFD brothers, I feel for you!!

    "Let's roll." - Todd Beamer, one of a group of American soldiers who handed the terrorists their first defeat.

    Joe Black

    The opinions expressed are mine and mine alone (but you can borrow them )and may not reflect those of any organization with which I am associated (but then again, they just may not be thinking clearly).

  19. #59
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    7tower

    I could be wrong?!?!

    But an agressive interior attack in Vegas is when you rush in with a salvage cover before the sprinklers damage the carpet???

    (Not an attack on The L.V.F.D. just the effects of protecting "NEW/SPRINKLED" buildings?!?!)
    FTM-PTB
    trk4

  20. #60
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    Yeah that is true, but thanks to Mario, there are more firefighters, stations and all new fire trucks.

    He didn't create the diversity issues in SF. He didn't create the lack of tallent in the Chief ranks either.

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