1. #1
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    Question When does it become a shrine?

    As the Holidays approach, I think it is timely for all of us to visit this site once again http://attacked911.tripod.com/ and reflect on how many people will not have a Happy Holiday because of the events of 9/11/01.

    The real reason I am posting is to see what your feelings are about "Ground Zero" now. We have gone for a few days without any controversy over who can be there or what is being found. My question is, at what point do we make this "sacred ground" a shrine to those who we have lost there?

    Just like our National Battlefields and Pearl Harbor, do you think it is proper to make the site of the World Trade Center a place where all Americans can go to honor those who lost their lives there? Before someone gets the wrong idea, this is not thought of in a morbid sense, but rather out of resepct for those lost and for our Country.

    Along with this, considering the financial damage this has done to the City, do you think it would be appropriate to consider New York as a possible vacation destination for the coming year? I have not really made any plans yet, but I am drawn to the idea that by going to NYC and spending my vacation dollars there, I might in some way be helping the City in returning to normal.

    [ 12-18-2001: Message edited by: MetalMedic ]

    Richard Nester
    Orrville (OH) Fire Dept.

    "People don't care what you know... until they know that you care." - Scott Bolleter

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    Metal,
    I am conflicted on the idea of turning Ground Zero into a shrine. I truely think that we should erect something to memorialize those that gave their lives on 9-11. But I also think that we should send a message to the rest of the world that we are not afraid.
    I think that a new structure should be built on ground zero that serves the same purpose as the original WTC. But, it should be named appropriately, and I think the address should be 911 World Trade Center Blvd.

    As for giving NYC your vacation Dollars, I visited NYC for Chief Downeys Memorial Service and spent some time and money in Brooklyn. I think it is an good idea. While there stop by and visit some of our brothers, but remember to bring a little something for them.

    BTW, Every time I see that web page I feel the same emotions I did on 9-11, anger, and grief for the families of our fallen brothers. I think the best way to memorialize the fallen brothers is as E229lt so eloquently put it:

    "Each of the Nations firefighters will accept the new challenge of living up to the image the public now has for us. Never forget how this image was earned and never take it for granted. As we all know, our image is fragile, to build it up has cost us dearly. To maintain it will take vigilance. To lose it will only take one foolish act."

    That should be our eternal memorial.

    Good bless and God Speed.
    Shawn M. Cecula
    Firefighter
    IACOJ Division of Fire and EMS

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    Just a few blocks from the WTC, a new Federal Building was being constructed. While the workers were digging they came across some bones. Some more digging resulted in LOTS more bones. Investigation determined it was a burial ground. All construction had to stop. The building had to be re-designed to accomodate a section of land to be set aside. The bones were removed for study. A fence was placed around it and a sign was erected indicating that this part of land was an African Burial Ground (some of you might have heard about it); grass was grown. Many people thought it would be made into a park with just some benches. Its been about 10 years now since those first bones were discovered. The fence, sign, and grass are still there. But nothing else is. When people ask what is being done with that land they're told that you can't do anything with that ground because its sacred.

    Those bones were found. Those bones were hundreds of years old, but they were found.

    Keeping this in mind, I don't understand how anyone could talk about building on land where, not only thousands were murdered, hundreds will never be found. I have a dear friend and cousin still missing. Thinking about whats left of them being bulldozed and somthing being build on top of them just gets to me.

    I know its a large area in Manhattan and all the money-makers who make the decisions think it would be wasted space, but I believe that at least the entire area of both Towers should be set aside for some kind of memorial. (And I really liked the idea that someone here had, sorry I can't remember your name, about lighting an eternal flame from the fires still buring)

    (BTW, not sure how true this is but I read in the newspaper that some of the bones that were being studied were in the WTC)

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    The issue of making this a shrine is a tricky one. The main issue will be that it is essentially private property in an area that possibly contains the most expensive real estate in the world. While I believe it is 100% appropriate to build a fitting memorial at the site (the NYPD Memorial is within a stone's throw of the WTC), asking the people who own this land to leave it vacant may be asking too much.

    However, on the vacation in NYC question, you will not be sorry if you go there for vacation. Any conceivable thing that you want to do is available. Theatre, concerts, cultural activities, sports, restaurants, shopping, history, night life, you name it,it is there.

    One word of advice. Before you come, find some way to talk to someone who knows the city. There are alot of hole in the wall places that the tour groups and guides won't tell you about. They will also tell you about the tourist traps that are rip offs (double decker busses for one). In addition, despite Rudy's best efforts, there are places that you just don't want to go to becuase they are unsafe. You can quickly learn about those from a savvy New Yawka. Finally, the mass transit system is the way to go, but it can be confusing. Get a good map and don't be afraid to ask questions.

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    great site first time i have seen it
    remember the fallen 9-11-01 let it not be in vain
    2197 10-8
    2197 10-8<br />stay safe have fun stay healthy<br />
    nc firefighter/emt-d
    RFB-FTM

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    This is just a musing, haven't thought about long-term/viability, just wanted to throw it out there...

    1. As much as I'd like to see two 111 story towers go up, I know that's not a good idea, so how about

    2. What currently exists at the site of the Worcester tragedy- just a chain-link fence around the property, which, through the visits of thousands, will become its own, very fitting, memorial. No construction, no nothing. Just bare ground, and the fence. Slighty different circumstances, I know (all bodies recovered in full, no huge property values, etc). Just a thought.

  7. #7
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    1.When does it become a shrine?

    NOW !!!

    2. [quote]Originally posted by fifi:
    And I really liked the idea that someone here had, sorry I can't remember your name, about lighting an eternal flame from the fires still buring.



    We do too !!!

    PLEASE REMEMBER THE CAVEMEN IN YOUR PRAYS
    Captain Frank Callahan Ladder 35
    Lieutenant John Ginley Engine 40
    Fr. Bruce Gary "Senior Man" Engine 40 FOUND 10/8
    Fr. Jim Giberson "BIG JIM" Ladder 35
    Fr. Mike Otten "The GERMAN"Ladder 35
    Fr. Steve Mercado "Rico" Engine 40
    Fr. Kevin Bracken "Mr. Clean" Engine 40
    Fr. Mike Roberts "Smiley" Ladder 35
    Fr. Mike Lynch "I can do that" Engine 40
    Fr. Vinny Morello "The Mechanic" Ladder 35
    Probie Fr. Mike D'Auria " The IRON Chef" Engine 40
    ALL STILL MISSING

    [ 12-19-2001: Message edited by: E40FDNYL35 ]

    ALL GAVE SOME BUT SOME GAVE ALL
    NEVER FORGET 9-11-01
    343
    CAPT. Frank Callahan Ladder 35 *
    LT. John Ginley Engine 40
    FF. Bruce Gary Engine 40
    FF. Jimmy Giberson Ladder 35
    FF. Michael Otten Ladder 35 *
    FF. Steve Mercado Engine 40 *
    FF. Kevin Bracken Engine 40 *
    FF. Vincent Morello Ladder 35
    FF. Michael Roberts Ladder 35 *
    FF. Michael Lynch Engine 40
    FF. Michael Dauria Engine 40

    Charleston 9
    "If my job was easy a cop would be doing it."
    *******************CLICK HERE*****************

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    MetalMedic, WoW.. Just visited that site.

    There is one pic in there that was taken inside the WTC of a ff running up when people were going down. I have seen it a couple of times, It's really moving and says a lot. does anyone know for a different site for that pic, I want to try and print it.

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    This is an issue we do not need to decide on, its not our place. The families of those lost are the ones who will decide this. Our place is to help facilitate the families and friends of those lost. How can we say what is a fitting tribute or shrine?? IF they need our help, we will help.
    IF they want our input, we will give them input. For now a shrine, a monument is the last thing on their minds I am guessing. Let the FDNY, NYPD, PAPD and all of the civilian families find the ones who are still lost first. Then and only then this topic can begin.
    Go raibh maith agat Go gcuire Dia an t-ádh ort! Dyfal donc a dyrr y garreg!!!!!

    IN MEMORY OF THE "MOOSE" 1974-2002<br />Ni bheidh mo leitheid ar'ris ann.

    Brothers till the end. "If they don't have GUINNESS in heaven we aint goin!"

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    Union Proud- I agree, it is not our place. Let the families of the fallen choose. I am sure all of us in the fire service have an a thought of what we would like to see, but it is not for us- it is for FDNY, NYPD, PAPD- and the civilians who died there.

    We will never forget our fallen brothers 9-11

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    LT1O1,

    IS THAT OAKLAND TOWNSHIP MICHIGAN BROTHER????
    Go raibh maith agat Go gcuire Dia an t-ádh ort! Dyfal donc a dyrr y garreg!!!!!

    IN MEMORY OF THE "MOOSE" 1974-2002<br />Ni bheidh mo leitheid ar'ris ann.

    Brothers till the end. "If they don't have GUINNESS in heaven we aint goin!"

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    Union Brother,
    It is Oakland Township Michigan. How are you doing down in Detroit?!?

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    LT1/101,

    Wow what a small state we live in after all. Most of my family lives in Orion and Oxford. They moved there from the city a few years ago. All is well in Detoilet just going day by day brother. Stay safe and keep the north country in order.
    Go raibh maith agat Go gcuire Dia an t-ádh ort! Dyfal donc a dyrr y garreg!!!!!

    IN MEMORY OF THE "MOOSE" 1974-2002<br />Ni bheidh mo leitheid ar'ris ann.

    Brothers till the end. "If they don't have GUINNESS in heaven we aint goin!"

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    Union Proud-
    Are you moving north to now?! We will try to keep things in order, but no promises! Stay safe down there!

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    [quote]Originally posted by LT1/101:
    Union Proud- I agree, it is not our place. Let the families of the fallen choose. I am sure all of us in the fire service have an a thought of what we would like to see, but it is not for us- it is for FDNY, NYPD, PAPD- and the civilians who died there.

    We will never forget our fallen brothers 9-11



    Did the families of the fallen soldiers decide how Gettysburg, Valley Forge, Normandy or any other place where Americans died from an act of war looked? All of these sites are preserved out of respect of those who gave their lives there. But they also serve as reminders to us and the world of what happened there. I do feel strongly that the families of those lost should have some say in the recovery efforts. But once they are satisfied that the bodies of their loved ones are no longer at that site, I feel this nation owes it to them, and to us, to do something appropriate so that this spot does not just become a new sky scraper in New York.

    [ 12-24-2001: Message edited by: MetalMedic ]

    Richard Nester
    Orrville (OH) Fire Dept.

    "People don't care what you know... until they know that you care." - Scott Bolleter

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    Hey metalmedic, I agree about making the area a memorial, but all those places you mentioned were another place and another time. Just like they're trying to make Gettysburg into condos now, along with a host of others, it'll all be determined by the bottom line. I just watched that video clip and was moved to tears *again*. As I climbed around in the debris field at the WTC site, I was shattered by all the bits and pieces of humanity scattered around me and I knew, then and there, it was hallowed ground. But, just like all the idiots that continue to this day to make a buck on others misfortunes, it's all turned into just another oppurtunity to cash in. We'll remember it all right, because it hit close to home and we'll continue to live it forever. In 50 years, it'll be a blockbuster movie in surround sound with all the rough edges smoothed over to protect everyones feelings, just like "Pearl Harbor". It's a damn shame....
    Lt. David Walters
    Rescue 10, FLTF2 USAR
    Miami, Florida

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