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  1. #1
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    Post Eng with a stick

    My Co is in the process of specing a new piece which will be a quint in this sense of the word, it will be an engine with a stick. When this concept came to light the first thing we did was look at the need (we have 3 100" trucks in our area), we cover just about any hazard you can think of except high rises (4 stories Max in our area), to include SFD's, MOD's, rural area with no water, industrial, warehousing, nursing homes,commercial, wildland. The next point was to consider the operational side of the question, since we have been an engine co for 200 years. After looking at the operational side we found we have been a truck Co without a truck at many of our incidents or we end up operating off someone else's truck. We then looked at our SOP's and determined how they would change. This done we then started writing the spec's keeping in mind we are an engine co and that we were just adding an additional capability.
    Trying not to sound to simplistic, In the end we wrote spec's for an engine then added specs for a 75' stick. This rig will be going to bid in the next month or two, so it will be interesting to see what the returns from the bidding process will be.
    We feel if we can maintain the Eng co operations as the 1st priority (this is a matter of training)we can become a more effective unit. I'm sure I will stir up the purist with this post, but I am a purist also (an eng is an eng, a truck is a truck)but since I lost this battle I guess we'll see if I will be a convert.
    The officers of the Co realized our bread and butter has been Eng Co operations and feel this can be maintained, I guess time will tell.
    As part of the whole process, I'm not so sure it will not succeed, and I hope it will,the attitudes are correct and thinking is Eng Co with a stick. Just a footnote, the closest stock rig to what we want right now is the Seagrave Meanstick in the Eng configuration to give you some idea. Of course our specs would require some customizaton.
    I'm sure this will invoke some thoughts and all are welcome

    Union Fire Co #1 Web Page
    Pres41 (Pete)
    pres41@aol.com

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    [ 01-23-2002: Message edited by: Schmidt ]


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    Richmond didn't spec their rigs, they ordered a dear whatever you always make send it too us. If they had used even one of what they bought which exist in the hundreds they would have known all of the issues before they owned them.

    Go out buy a rig that already exists and is doing the job somewhere successfully. Simply buy a new onw\e with your name on it.

    I can assure you, our hose laid wonderfully from day one with no special loading, our rigs cost less than Richmonds and can do a heck of a lot more. We carry 4 to 10 times the water, don't spend a lifetime on maintenance and put more miles on our rigs. Our much larger 5 inch line doesn't hang up, we don't have any chutes and can lay duals, 1300 feet each, our rear ends don't swing out and hit cars, we don't have angle of departure problems, we don't have an abriviated ground ladder compliment, and we didn't nuke our attack line volume, foam capacity, or compartmentation. You don't need to add a mechanical swing out hose bed. If it doesn't make sense on a pumper don't add it to a quint. If you can't load hose with the ladder bedded don't buy the rig. The stick should not be in the hose bed. We use three firefighters to load hose, so ours our not manpower intensive to load.

    Don't let one FD's silly decisions on a grand scale effect your concept, it appears you are right on with what you want to do.

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    Lightbulb

    Rob:

    Several things you mentioned were looked at, the Rear Axle spec is 30,000 lbs which should give us plenty of room, hose bed wise it will be a side stacker hose bed with nothing over top of the hose bed, ie stick, turntable to provide ease of reloading the bed, we lay a lot of it. We have tried to avoid the "bells and whistles", nothing fancy just function to fit the job. Also noted your words about the mirrors, we learned that lesson about the moto mirrors on the door with one other piece we have, so they are going on the cab.

    Tower as you said this thing is designed to do the job as an "engine", not much in frills, no CAFS, (damn hard to justify the cost on that one), will have a small amount of Class A with a simple eduction system. Ease of reloading was on everyone's mind when writing the specs (we run over 900 alarms a year), when you think about it reloading a rig is more labor intensive than putting the damn fire out.

    Pete

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    I always thought a quint was kinda of a short stick(like 50-60 ft)with pump and small tank on it.Now if this is true wouldn't this work except if you get a larger ladder.sorry if this sounds stupid cause our closest quint is like a hour away.most everyone usually around here(except the well provided f.d. get pumpers and tankers but we got 2 good size sticks in the county(around 100 ft).

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    Just have onne question for you. Do you ever do a reverse lay? If you do the stick is useless, it is down by the hydrant. Also what are your building setbacks? 75' may sound like a lot but you may find yourself short.

    If you have three trucks in the area save your money a just buy an engine. An option would be to put a 35' ground ladder on your rig for the extra reach. With the quint you'll loose hosebed space and the flexability to try different lays.

    For the quint to be of use you always have to park in front or forward in. Not to mention the best spot for the ladder may not be the best spot for the engine to strech lines.

    BTW the engine on the website looks great, if it works well for you don't change. If ISO is your concern the auto aid trucks will count.

    Good Luck

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    .... Do you ever do a reverse lay?

    With a side stacker hose bed, you can lay dual LDH lines which will provide the same water as siting at the hydrant pumping the line.

    ....If you do the stick is useless, it is down by the hydrant.

    Ok, for every fire anyone has ever fought what percenatage of yor fires were put out with a hose line versus the numberof fires where the stick was employed? I bet it wouldn't even be noticed the rare case you sat at a hydrant.

    ....Also what are your building setbacks? 75' may sound like a lot but you may find yourself short.

    Ok, the set backs are 100 to 130 feet. Are you suggesting he buy a 150 to 200 foot ladder? Odds ar his 75 footer can go up the drive way where as a 100 foot plus beast counldn't even make the turn.

    .... With the quint you'll loose hosebed space and the flexability to try different lays.

    Yeah we can only get 2100 feet of 5 inch and 1400 fet of attack line on our side stackers.

    ....For the quint to be of use you always have to park in front or forward in. Not to mention the best spot for the ladder may not be the best spot for the engine to strech lines.

    You can stretch hose you can't stretch ladders, place it as a ladder. But like everyone odds are the stick almost never goes up.

    ....If ISO is your concern the auto aid trucks will count.

    Maybe then again maybe not. One thing for sure, you'll get more credit for a quint that you will an engine or ladder. Another thing typical ISO credit for auto aid is 40 to 60%. It is rarely credited for the entire response area if at all.

    Sounds to me like you've done your homework.

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    "You can stretch hose you can't stretch ladders, place it as a ladder. But like everyone odds are the stick almost never goes up."

    Very true, so if the ladder almost never goes up then why carry it around on your engine. The additional weight and maintenance aren't worth it.
    If you are using dual 5" lays then I am guessing you are using preconnects. Just how long are you going to make them? 250' 300' I guess that would be OK for the long stretch. But what about the shorter lays. Kind of defeats the reason that the line is preconnected.

    Who is "we" can we see a picture of this quint.

    If it is the one I'm thinking of pres41 is going to be a bit shocked at its size.

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    Your rear axle is very important, because it is very easy to overload it on a larger unit. If possible go with two axles at the rear. A department near where i am learned to their own expense, they were carrying much to much equipement on a single axle 100 ' quint and had to cut down on hose and other equipement.

    happy holidays to all


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    We use quints around here are as follows.
    They are an engine when responding on "still alarms" which would be car fires, medicals, etc.
    When assigned on a box they are ladder companies.
    However if they begin a engine company fuction at a box , then the officer will state that they are operating as an engine and another ladder company will be sent.

    As far as ISO rating were we told that they are either a ladder or an engine, not both.

    We try to avoid using them to lay lines, since the hose is packed around the ariel base.
    Currently we have 2 quints, one is a 100 ft, the other a 75.
    In hindsight the 75 ft should have been a 100 ft considering the buildings we have.

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    ...The additional weight and maintenance aren't worth it.

    Really, what is the cost for weight and maintenance on a 75 foot quint?

    ....If you are using dual 5" lays then I am guessing you are using preconnects. Just how long are you going to make them? 250' 300' I guess that would be OK for the long stretch. But what about the shorter lays. Kind of defeats the reason that the line is preconnected.

    We have 50's 150's and 400's. I'm sure they all pull faster than any make and break. But it does eliminate the reverse lay need for the quint.

    ....If it is the one I'm thinking of, going to be a bit shocked at its size.

    That is funny, it is a full 7 feet shorter and 9000 pounds lighter than the bronken down rig you you spec'd and are always crying about. It is a mere 2 to 3.5 feet longer maybe that the side stacker he plans to buy.

    ...our rear axle is very important,

    a 75 foot side stacker fully loaded on a single axle still has 3500 left at the rear and 2800 front, with 500 gallonsand 6 guys in the cab.

    .... If possible go with two axles at the rear.

    not unless you have too, it will effect turning, angleof departure, compartmentation, etc. If you add axles thenit should be for need, ie water, larger ladder, etc.

    ... they were carrying much to much equipement on a single axle 100 ' quint and had to cut down on hose and other equip.

    You won't have to worry about that, no one makes a 100 foot quint on a single rear end.

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    maybe i'm old-fashion type but(but i know personally) I just like getting ladders off the truck versus having a ladder on a truck taking up space. I know there's advantages and disadvantages to both. the thing i like about ground ladders is how quick they are. you park the truck, you and another guy grab the ladder adjust it to the height you want. put up on the side where you want. then make sure it's secure. then usually other guys are hooking up a line and it's charged by your side and your ready to climb the ladder.I know the some of the videos i watched Boston F.D. perfer ground ladders too

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    the7tower

    You are right about the fact that nobody builds 100 ' quints on a rear axle as a standart model, but when lenght is a question and you need a 100' ladder, well the builder might make an exception for $ 700,000 !!!

    The units i'm talking about are 100' five sections sky-five aerials built by Nova Quintech on Spartan cabs (single axle). They have 1500 gpm pumps 200 gal water and carry about 800 feet of ldh, plus carry ground ladders. Not bad considering they mesure only 32 feet in lenghts ! Oh, i forget they have 8v71 475 hp engines and can seat 6 FFs.



    [ 12-30-2001: Message edited by: q66fire ]


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    7th. Tower, how do you know theres 3500 lbs. available on the rear and 2400 lbs. on the front???

    Also, this 100 Nova Quintech - it is a tandem axle correct ???

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    [ 01-23-2002: Message edited by: Schmidt ]


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    JunkyardDog,

    The Nova Quintechs are single axles, that's the problem as i said in an earlier post, they overloaded some of these rigs (they went over the axle ratings) and had to cut down on equipement.

    It is the Quebec City FD (QC, Canada) that operate these, because the streets are so narrow. Stock 100' 4 section aerials with dual rear axles are out of the question, they just won't fit in some of the streets.



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    ...h. Tower, how do you know theres 3500 lbs. available on the rear and 2400 lbs. on the front???

    i JUST RAN 7 OF THEM ACCROSS A SCALE FOR AN iso GRADING.

    ....- gee,the7tower, didn't know you were down here sitting with all the other guys on our apparatus committee.

    WELL JUST LOOK AT WHAT YOU ARE RUNNING, THEY ARE BASE MODEL PIERCES WITH A FEW EXTRA WARNING LIGHTS. NOT TOO TOUGH TO SEE THAT. THERE WERE SEVERAL REALLY NICE RIGS AT PIERCE WHEN YO PICKED YOURS UP LIKE MASON-DEERFIELDS, REMEMBER????

    ... Not that it mattered-

    SURE IT DOES, YOU GUYS ARTICLES ARE AN EMBARRISMENT TO THE FIRE SERVICE. YOUR FIRST QUINT IS BETTER THAN THE NEW ONES, TELL THE TRUTH., RIGHT???

    ... the guys downtown scraped all of what the suppression guys requested.

    SO WHY WHINE ABOUT THE RIGS, CRY ABOUT ADMIN INSTEAD

    ....-It's not so much that the stick is actually in the hosebed. It's more like on top of the hosebed.

    ON YOURS, NOT ON A RIG THAT IS PROPERLY SPEC'D


    ...-tower, all we really wanted is a unit that can , ya'know, do firefighting stuff. More power to you for saving those taxpayers some greenbacks.

    I'M SURE YOU DID, WHAT YOU ALL SHOULD BE SAYING IS DON'T GO OUT AND BUY 40 RIGS AT ONCE, PROTOTYPE A FEW GET THE BUGS OUT AND THEN COPY THEM.

    ...-geeze-you guys are just about perfect.

    COMPARED TO THE CRAP YOU RUN? YOU BET.

    ....Us poor guys in Richmond should come on down to the "Southeast" and have y'all teach us a thing or two...

    IT IS OBVIOUS WITH ALLTHE INJURIES YOU'VE HAD AND BAD PRESS YOU HAVE A LOT TO LEARN

    ....He has rightly asked those who have experience with these beasts(Richmond being one- as we now have 20 of the darned things)

    YEAH 20 BAD EXPERINECES.

    ...what their ideas were on getting the best for their buck.

    HOW WOULD YO KNOW RUNNING CRAP???

    ....I think you will find that Quint is pretty much getting to be a term synonamous with "Hey,let's cutback the budget for the FD

    SO YOU SPENT 14.5 MILLION MORE, THAT IS CUTTING BACK???

    ....by buying these things because a Quint can do EVERYTHING a FD needs with HALF the manpower".

    IS THAT WHAT YOUARE SUGGESTING?

    .....I can tell you with 99.9% certainty that ONE Engine and ONE Truck will do the job better, more safely , and more professionally than ONE Quint.

    HOW WOULD YOU KNOW, YOU'VE NEVER RUN A QUINT WITH DOUBLE STAFFING, OR ONE PROPERLY SPEC'D.

    HAVING GONE HEAD TO HEAD WITH A QUINT VERSUS AN ENGINE AND LADDER IN FORNT OF 170 FIREFIGHTERS AND HAVING KICKED THEIR TAILS SOUNDLY EVEN THOUGH THEY HAD TWICE THE STAFFING, I WOULDN'T BE SO SURE.

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    [ 01-23-2002: Message edited by: Schmidt ]


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    Gee Schmidt

    Why don't you guys write a story in every magazine telling how stupidly you designed and operate your fire department? I've only stated facts.

    ...by "you Guys" I assume you mean Lt. Jake Rixner? I don't think his articles are an embarrasment,pal. All the kind Lt. is trying to do is pass on a little knowledge. Granted none of his articles will get any awards- but his heart is in the right spot. And , to tell the truth, the Ferrara we bought first has just as many problems as the rest pal.

    Oh I see, here is an article about how stupid we were as an organization. Only took us 6 months to figure out how to load the hose bed (your line) Uh Huh UH HUH. Our rigs don't even fit in the fire station Uh HUH Uh HUH uh HUH. The back ends drag all the time UH HUH uh HUH. We pul up fire hydrantslike weed swhen we lay lines Uh HUH uh HUH

    No where did he state the department screwed up in its design, its spec's. Just an message of look out for quints. The title of the article should have been look how stupid we were and 20 ways to be this dumb.

    Instead the story was entitled and sumarized as follows: "TO BUY (OR NOT TO BUY) A QUINT
    "Many fire departments across the country are exploring the possibility of purchasing a quint. These five-function vehicles offer progressive fire service leaders new options on their arrival at the scene of a working fire. "

    I'm sorry, dumb is as dumb does. You shared your laundry, tried to pass the blame and now we all know the truth.

    Ok tell us about the problems with the 75 foot Ferrara. Could it lay hose better? Did it get around town better? Did someone force you to buy that one too?

    Well, "mate" pretty hard to respect a place that says we are a victim. I only speak about what I know a bit about. I know a bit about quints and Richmond.

    Oh, if I've stated anything but the facts about your quints or operations please say so.

    [ 12-31-2001: Message edited by: the7tower ]


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    7th Tower, Could you please educate all of us and tell us what your department uses for an aerial. List everything the truck offers,manufaturer of the bidy,chassis,aerial device, pump rating, water tank capacity, seating, aerial size and ratings, axle weights, front and rear, cubic inches of compartment space, hose bed, discharges, etc.

    From this information we can all deign our own " perfect" truck.

    Thank

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    [ 01-23-2002: Message edited by: Schmidt ]


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    .......So why is it you feel compelled to disrespect Richmond Fire in such a way?

    Obviously, you all get a kick out of running artiles telling the world about your problems. Disrespect your FD, huh, you all did that yourself.

    Two quints for a car fire.

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    The7tower, if what you say is true, and I'm not questioning it, why kick em when there down? Some departments think they can make no mistakes, they would rather eat horse crap than to say "look we made these mistakes, try not to do the same." Have a Happy and Safe New Year!


    Tell your Family you love them.

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    .......So why is it you feel compelled to disrespect Richmond Fire in such a way?

    Obviously, you all get a kick out of running artiles telling the world about your problems. Disrespect your FD, huh, you all did that yourself.

    Some of the things yuo all have published:

    Two quints for a car fire.

    ...As with any radical new concept, "working the bugs out" to optimize performance takes time, commitment, and training by all parties involved.

    Sounds like you gave up and are not doing oyur part of the deal


    ...1971...25 two-piece engine, 9 ladders and 2 squads 216 guys per shift.

    ...1982, 13 engines, 7 (2 piece), 9 trucks, 1 one squad 150 guys.

    ...1995 20 engines, 6 trucks.

    All that Jack's fault too????

    ....Under Jack 20 quints, 9 engines, 3 squads 100 guys

    Just wonder is the town burning down? Are fires killing more people now that before?

    ...Got four hours of training on your new quints.

    Jack's fault? Company officers can't teach. Real FD's don't do these things do they?

    ...None of the guys had any truck compant experience, you are all pumper specialists but now had to do truck stuff.

    Sounds like you all led sheltered fire service lives. Real FD's don't do this dothey?

    No grevances filed???

    ...Other companies said they didn't havwe any water squirters on the rigs. Never in their career learned how to operate a fire pump.

    ...While laying hose, couplings would catch rippng hydrants out of the ground like weeds.


    ....Firefighters getting hurt catching hydrants.

    Professsionals huh? No warranty on the rigs to be able to lay hose with out this??

    ....quints are as slow as buses.

    >>>all these fires where 15 secondswould have made a difference.

    >>>>fire trucks driven by your pros started hitting cars and things, only when returning from calls

    but your old larger ladders didn't do that.

    ...guys are lonely now because almost all stations are single company and the stations are so big built for 12.

    Almost cried on that one

    ....It is harder to clean the big stations now.

    ...Becasue you have to run somany companies larger areas of townare left unprotected.

    I guess you can't figure out how to do station moveups.

    ....pre quint this prequint that.

    The facts are Jack didn't bring the staffing problem with him in fact the old chief's budget insured the same layoffs, closed stations etc. Oh I'm sorry, that was a fact. Staffing issues were going to happen with or without quints.

    ...we forgot that 75 foot ladders don't work well.

    hmmm, now you have 5 100 foot ladders and 14 75's, seems to me to be more and the same options are there.

    ...I had 6 quints and a rescue and one crew forgot they were going to a structure fire and din't take their quint so theyused a 500 gpm pump on a standpipe.

    Of course it didn't effect the out come of the fire. His point it is too hard to think on his feet.

    ...you have to use two quints on a car fire. That over a million dollars worth of apparatus was needed on the call.

    He forgot to mention that there are 23 other rigs that carried plenty of water, some in his smae station that could have gone.

    ...every one of the 10 FD's he has surveyed using quints said they don't do ladder tasks now.

    Hmm, that is the rigs fault? He doesn't state if they did them before.

    ...quotes clark as the difference between paid and volunteers is the quality of truck work.

    If that isn't a slam to the volunteer fire service that woks just fine with quints I don't know what is. BUT, vollies are not penning stories about poor us and the chief did this to us and we don't know how to pump our rigs or can't figure out how to do truck stuff.

    ...The author clearly states the roles of each quint on a fire. Two to three are truck work.

    SOunds like a paid professional union problem to me.

    ...he says richmond ff's are can do firefighters

    but keeps telling us they canot think on their feet, or work with the apparatus they nowhave.

    Just because there is a pump, hose bed and water tank doesn't mean a can do crew can't pull a ladder, vent, salvage, force etc. but in richmond it does.

    ....before you buy look at your response area, roads bridges, and ask will a quint work here? This one is good to are you willing to train?

    OK, so how did you screw the pooch and auger in???

    If conventional pumpers and ladder were not too heavy and could get around why would quints be any different?

    ...The crux of the richmond problem is identified by the author when he says: " we must never forget that it is the people riding the apparatus who stretch the hose, make the rescues, and knock down fires. "

    So they are not allowing the concept to work.

    More proof? "Our quints are big and beautiful with lots of chrome, flashing lights, and other gadgetry. However, if given a choice between modern fire trucks with mediocre firefighters and that "plain-Jane" 1976 Mack pumper with motivated and dedicated firefighters like we had at Engine 5, I'll take the old Mack every trip of the train."

    See the fire truck doesn't motivate his crew. So if you don't give him what he wants the professional won't work for you.

    ...."Is there a way to achieve the discipline necessary to accomplish effective ladder company duties using this type of apparatus? If anyone out there has the answer, please share it with us all."

    A clueless pro admitting he doesn't know what he is doing.

    ..."This article is strictly the opinion of the author and in no way reflects the position of the Richmond (VA) Fire and Emergency Services Department. "

    Oh yes it does!!!!!!!!!!


    The pros and cons listed were a joke as well.

    ...Pros:
    ...looks good on paper.
    ...increase in pump capacity
    ...Reduction of staffing = saving money. By staffing each quint with four persons,
    Of course he forgets to mention the staffing was cut before quints came to town

    ... no need to staff trucks
    forgot to mentionthe staffing was going to be what it was with or with a quint, so a more accurate statement would have been if you staff trucks you'll have to shut down engines. Of course they could have always cross manned the a traditional ladder and conventional engine in each station rigs thatwoud have solved everything tbecause the quint wouldn't have been there to give the pros an attitude. But then they would have taken the wrong rig to car fires just like they do nowand it would have required to rigs. Gee, these sound like people problems!

    ...More ladders avaiable

    ....More flexible apparatus

    if thecrew doesn't have an attitude.

    >>>allnew fleet at once that is betterequipped for crew comfort.

    ...better ladder pipes

    ...DISADVANTAGES

    ..too hard for union pros to drive.

    >>>costs more to maintain fuel etc.
    than what two rigs??? I don't think so.

    ...Increased response time,
    there is a stretch

    ..Bridge problems
    maybe but not if you did your homework first.

    ... Increase in unprotected areas
    There is this theme, that if you were not cutting our staffing with or without quints, then we'd have all these extra guys and rigs and so everything would be better. The facts are you would need lots of trucks to bring lots of guys and larger areas would be without ladder coverage than they are with quints, oh he forgot that.

    ...Perfect positioning a must for short ladders

    pretty much true for long ladders too.

    ... If you screw up the order you are stuck with it

    Kinda true with any order isn't it?

    ....Insufficient personnel for engine and truck functions.
    I think that is an out right lie. Know, I kow it is. There would have been the same number of guys per rig either way. Same assignments.

    ...." It is impossible with a staff of only four firefighters to effectively do both engine company functions and truck company work with the same crew."

    Then why did you post the SOPs that state first rig engine, 2nd truck, 3rd engine , 4th truck, 5th water, 6th truck. Because you don't work that way, that too is an outright lie.

    ...Fire station renovations

    kinda depends what you buy with or without quints.

    ...Departments report ladder functions are not performed.

    The rig does not do thiose functions. That is a people, policy disapline thing. The rig is quite capable of doing those things

    ...The quint, does not have enough space to carry the equivalent footage of ground ladders as
    senior tractor-drawn ladders.

    Maybe that is a problem with yors, but it is a spec thing, isnt it?

    ...Small tank.

    Spec thing. Ours have 2000 gallons.

    Just because someone wrote an article doesn't mean it istrue, accurate, etc.

    Is it a quintissue or attitude issue in Richmond???

    source:


    http://fe.pennnet.com/Articles/Article_Display.cfm?Section=Archives&Subsection=Display&ARTICLE_ID=101597&x=y

    Why bring all this up? They still to this day blame the chief, the rigs, everyone but the end users. Over 1000 quints of almost the same design and builder are out there working just fine. It is obviously a people issue here.

    Better to listen to a success story than listen to folks whine about all there stupid mistakes.

  25. #25
    Junior Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Somewhere between here and there
    Posts
    18

    Post

    7th Tower, you have not answered my question.

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