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  1. #1
    M G
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    Post Time to Research Buying a Quint

    Its time for a quint. I am in the process of researching evrything I can about quints and compiling a massive databank for presentation to the company. We cover about 25 square miles I'd say, only about 2 of them are hydranted. Our current fleet includes 2 1000 Gal pumpers, a 3000 gal tanker and several other apparatus. We are volunteer. The members go to the firehouse as opposed to the scene. No buildings over 3 stories in our first due but some others nearby. Long driveways, narrow roads, no water, big houses, trusses. We have about 30 members. It must have at a minimum...(unless I am told otherwise by what I learn here).

    -500 Gallons
    -1500-2000 Pump
    -Generator at least 10kw
    -75' LADDER (or is a squirt better?)
    -Side stacker hosebed (at least 1000' 5" LDH)
    -Seating for at least 6

    My wish list is already more than 5 pages but I would like input from folks who may run simlar units. Answering the following qiestions...and any other input of value.

    -Is 500 gallons sufficient without hydrants, how do you interface with next due water supply (tanker or engine).
    -Ladder or squirt boom with ladder?
    -What are your successes?
    -Failures?
    -Who built it?
    -Are you happy with that/those manufacturers
    -Why arent all fire trucks red like they should be?
    -How do you carry ground ladders? (bedded in the truck or on a rack?
    -How many attack lines and where do they deploy from?
    -Did you do anything "innovative" that would make people say "hey, look at that..thats pretty sharp."

    Looking foward to your help.


  2. #2
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    This probably isn't the answer you are looking for but I wouldn't get a quint in your situation. Their are rigss that we have seen from time to time on these posts that do everything (Fallon NV & Rattlesnake CO) but those rigs were BIG. The size may be a problem on small streets and long driveways. Without any tall buildings in your area I'd stick with some extra ground ladders 35' or 40'. By the sounds of the area (from your description) I would want a large tank 1000 gal or more if you can. The LDH is a good idea, as much as you can.

    Why does the pump need to be so large? a 1000 or 1250 would be less expensive. Can you maintain 2000 GPM with tankers? To keep the rig small could you use the Hale Q-pak?

    Just some thoughts

    Stay safe and Happy New Year

  3. #3
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    Sounds like you got a good start.

    -Is 500 gallons sufficient without hydrants, how do you interface with next due water supply (tanker or engine).

    Put CAFS on it and stretch that 500 gallons and anything the tankers bring in.

    We don't interface our quint with tankers so I really can't comment there.

    -Ladder or squirt boom with ladder?

    Ladder.

    -What are your successes?

    It's got a nice paint job and the cab is not too uncomfortable. The stick is easy to operate.

    -Failures?

    Firefighters had little to no input on the design of the apparatus.

    Crosslays are too high, pump panel is too confusing.

    After a couple of us line engineers pleaded with the guy doing the specing:

    "Bob, please, let's sit down and get this panel layed out so that you don't have to reach way over here to adjust something that's going to show up on a gauge way over here."

    "No, the manufacturer knows how to lay it out, they do it all the time."

    "But they'll do it if we ask them too."

    "Hey, I've been buyin' trucks for this department for alota years, I know what I'm talkin' about."

    A year or so later...

    Bob says to the mfg "jeez, this pump panel is a little confusing, why didn't you put this here and that there?"

    "You didn't ask us too."

    "You mean we could have told you how we wanted it layed out?"

    "Well, yeah. You knew that. Didn't you?"

    "Uhm, well, I, uh, you see, we, uh..."

    -Who built it?

    -Are you happy with that/those manufacturers


    All I can say is stay with a well established single source (E-One, Pierce), or at least no more than two source (say AI and one builder), manufacturer.

    Make sure they have a good engineering department and are willing to offer up suggestions that don't drive the price up, but make sense for you.

    While I firmly believe you get a bad truck for three reasons and the first is a bad spec, the second is not holding the mfg to that spec and the third is bad manufacturing. IMHO, we should have never had to have the conversation regarding the pump panel with the mfg.

    Also, you might consider hiring someone that knows about the process. If you're building a new city hall, you don't put a committee togther and say "design it" do you?

    No, you put a committee together and get them together with an architect, somebody that knows about the process and where changes can be made that can cut costs without cutting the quality and others that can add benefit without raising the price.

    -Why arent all fire trucks red like they should be?

    Because they're supposed to be white.

    -How do you carry ground ladders? (bedded in the truck or on a rack?

    Bedded in the truck.

    -How many attack lines and where do they deploy from?

    Four, one bumper, 3 crosslays, plenty of additional discharges to hook to though.

    -Did you do anything "innovative" that would make people say "hey, look at that..thats pretty sharp."

    No.

    But we do have some things that when mfg rep brings fire departments in to have a look at their work, I point out that I wouldn't do or that I would do different. 'Course they don't come around on my shift anymore because I keep askin' the rep when they're going to come and fix problems we continue to have. And once when a guy asked what I'd do different I told him I'd buy from somebody else. They all started laughing and then I told them I was dead serious and listed a bunch of reasons why...

    And other things...

    Determine how much reach you'll have.

    Your 75' stick is only 75' pointed as straight up as it'll go. A75' stick itself is probably going to be somewhere in the 'hood of 64'. Then you have to subtract half the width with the outriggers out. You might be looking at a 57' of side reach.

    And if you're going to be planting it in driveways, will they hold the weight?

    Are the drives wide enough to safely set the outriggers on?

    Consider turning your five page wish list into a performance based spec. Tell them what you want the apparatus to be able to do and have and see what they offer back. A friends department sent out a spec like this and got half a dozen completely different completed specs back.

    Each mfg sent a spec back that built the truck to do exactly what they asked for. There were four different size chassis, four different engine sizes, two tranny sizes (on four of the specs - each from multi-manufacturers - the tranny was either maxed out or too small for the engine size). Maximum length and height was specified and truck lengths came back with 6' of difference in length, one was two feet longer than the max and a foot taller.

    Only two mfgs offered options.

    [ 12-31-2001: Message edited by: mongofire_99 ]

    It's only my opinion. I do not speak for any group or organization I belong to or associate with or people I know - especially my employer. If you like it, we can share it, you don't have to give me credit. If you don't, we are allowed to disagree too (but be ready to be challenged, you may be on to something I'm not). That's what makes America great!

  4. #4
    M G
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    Where may I find a copy of a performance based spec to model from, any good books out there? Fire Engineering has a book or two on apparatus specs, are they worth it?

    Mongo, you got any 411 you can email or mail to me? Your reply planted a few good seeds in my head execpt,,,,how can you say WHITE? You must have been hit in the head as a child Thanks so far though.

  5. #5
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    Post



    [ 01-23-2002: Message edited by: Schmidt ]


  6. #6
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    MG

    When only 7% of your district is hydranted why would you limit yourself to a 500 galon water tank? Why not 1000 or 1500 or 2000 gallons? Can you gauranteed the quints will always have tanker suppport ofr initial attack? If not why not combine the rigs?

    As far as innnovative see www.isoslayer.com, we started the big water level light craze,

    With a somewhat similar area we went 10 man cabs, 2300 gpm pumps, 1/2 mile 5 inch, four master streams, 16 preconnects(4 on the bumper, 5 off the rear and the rest cross laid), ability to draft with one guy in 30 seconds, 65 foot ladder, 11 foot outrigger spread, CAFS, 2000 gallon tanks, 10 inch side dumps, 170 to 280 feet of ground ladders on dual racks, pump and roll, 200 plus gallons of foam, 20 KW generators, 9 cord reels and 1800 feet of cord per rig, 12 flood lights, extremely simple controls, and the rigs are 5 feet longer than a standard tele squrt, 3 feet longer than the std 75 foot quint, we don't have any problem getting them anywhere.

  7. #7
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    Thumbs up

    I'm still trying to get our Board to seriously consider a quint. We're rural also but having a building boom. All the new houses having the very high, steeped pitch roofs, it's already enough to be a definite hazard trying to vent. Most departments where alot of new building is going on will have this same problem. It will be a dicey situation getting close enough and having an adequate surface to stabilize, but firefighter safety is paramount. Good info on the usable length off a 75'. CAFS is a definite, but due to the weight constraints don't trick-out too much. But then again who wants a Dodge Viper with a four cylinder.

    Tell your Family you love them.

  8. #8
    M G
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    Larry,

    Any of the reasons I can give you will not make sense in your scope of things. I understand what you are saying, in fact if you remember we spoke several times when you visited the neighboring town in central NJ here. I am kind of limited to what I can convince some of the old birds we need, so I make concessions. The bigger it is the more they will be afraid and the more it wont fit in some of our places. We only have so much money to play with also. And I can assure you they dont have a clue about how to lower ISO to save money for taxpayers and prepare for an apparatus purchase, nor would I even think of trying to sell it to them. Like it or not thats a prevailing mentailty. Yes the tanker is always on the road on the tail of the engine and for fires a second due is automatically sent.

    I have taken many ideas used in the rigs you speak of and filed them in my databank and a good number are on my list. I would be happy to get your help if you have any to offer. Looking at items like side load hosebed with possible ladder rack as opposed to along the frame ladder storage etc. We have an engine with 6 man long cab, 1000 gal tank and top mount pump with a 221" wheelbase and its like driving a friggin boat, we want something shorter and easier to maneuver, better turn angles etc. I know its all spec based...and if you tell them what you want/want it to do, they build it that way and such. Thats the idea here.

  9. #9
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    Ah yes,

    KME, E-One, Quality, and anyone mounting an aeial innovations ladder can give you a side stacked type hose body (so could anyone else if they want your business) and the 200 inch wheel base you desire. Require a 45 degree cramp angle and you'll out turn the boat. Ask for a pedistal pump and stainless plumbing and you can lose 18 to 24 inches out of the pump compartment. You'll end up with a super short manueverable quint.

    If you go 65 foot squirt you could get 750 gallon of water

    ]

    [ 12-31-2001: Message edited by: the7tower ]


  10. #10
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    M G

    you got any 411 you can email or mail to me?

    Some, just tell me what you want.

    You must have been hit in the head as a child

    And more than once as an adult.

    Schmidt

    (The pintable waterway is a nice touch, though.

    I may be misunderstanding what you mean, so forgive me if'n I do, but pinnable waterways are available on all lengths of ladders.

    Quints are quite large and as such are intensive on the training side- it does take a little getting used to.

    I respctfully disagree. Spec out what you want and go from there. As far as training, in this case the engineer knows how to pump and based on what M G said, probably knows how to run a stick. It's no sweat to combine the two.

    We knocked off railings ,mirrors, antennas, etc...in the training process.

    The only guys we've had knock things off the quint are the same guys that knocked things off their engines.

    One even raced the door and ripped it off.

    You have to wonder why we let them continue to drive. LOL

    ...because our R&D officer WAS dropped on his head...

    Let the guys on the line do it with some pro help and save everyone some headaches.

    And I think our guy was dropped on his head too. Drag him out to an engine he spec'd that you've got to climb a ladder (sarcastically speaking) to get to the crosslays and ask "why are these this high?"

    "Mongo, you're an idiot. You know there's a pump underneath."

    Well, I might be an idiot, that's another forum but we open the pump access door and there's 2 feet of empty space and ask "why didn't you drop them these two or at least one of these two feet."

    "Uh, well the mfg doesn't build them that way."

    "Really?"

    "Yep."

    "Let's go call them and ask."

    "Nah, don't need to, I know."

    "BS, there ain't no other reason except YOU don't know what your doing."

    "Whaa. Chief, mongo's picking on me again."

    JOEL KIMBALL

    All the new houses having the very high, steeped pitch roofs, it's already enough to be a definite hazard trying to vent... ...but firefighter safety is paramount.

    Have you guys gone to the local builders association and/or the controlling legal authority and explained what you cannot do because of the design of these buildings?

    But then again who wants a Dodge Viper with a four cylinder.

    I once saw the neatest thing on wheels, looked like it was going 250mph when it was just sitting there. Simply an awesome looking ride.

    Then the guy started it up. Kit car on a VW chassis with VW motor.

    the7tower

    Ask for a pedistal pump and stainless plumbing and you can lose 18 to 24 inches out of the pump compartment.

    OK, I'm an idiot.

    What's a pedistal pump?

    And how would stainless plumbing help take inches out of the pump compartment.

  11. #11
    MFD
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    in my opinion (we don't have quints) but almost all trucks i wouldn't order a truck with less than 750 gallon tank(i'd probably order it will 1000 gallon)(it's better to have to much water on board than to little) I know you loose hosebed space.(plus there's methods of saving space when laying hose. now far as brands you can't go wrong with a pierce(we have one and that's our main pumper and it's like a early -mid 70 so the qaulity there. there's a dept next to use that has a almost twin truck. I kid this one guy who ALWAYS take that vs the new truck I siad to him why do you always take the old truck he said i like the pierce better it's a better truck) another truck i like is American LaFrance. I've herd far as parts they ship real fast if your truck goes down. When you look for a truck think of what makes it the easiest at the scene,easiest to drive and easiest to reload and unload.The last thing you want after a 3 am fire is a truck that hell to load.Talk with manufactuer's reps see what they can work out for your dept. usually they'll work with you.
    now in my opinion about color of fire trucks. THEY GOTTA BE RED.it's not a fire truck unless it's red. We bought our tanker used from a volunteer dept it was BRIGHT yellow/green and had it repainted red. another thing is I'm a BIG FAN of ground ladders(they're quicker and i think better than a ladder on a truck). we keep most of them bedded in the truck.I understand REALLY tall ladder trucks(like 90-110 ft buckets and ladders but those little ones like 50-60 ft nope i don't get it)so if its 75 ft i say squirt

  12. #12
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    Smile

    There is no controlling legal authority out here. We just last year, became a township. The town consists of one housing addition but they will be annexing very soon. Our total district is approx. 40 sq. miles with 7-10k people. Everyone wants to live on their 2 acres and not have any government. So they move here and build their 200k home with Mount Everest roofs. 200k in Oklahoma builds a heck of a house. We've been lucky but that only goes so far. That and horizontal ventilation on those buggers. If it's not safe, it's not worth risking anything on just a structure.

    Tell your Family you love them.

  13. #13
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    [ 01-23-2002: Message edited by: Schmidt ]


  14. #14
    M G
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    Mongo (you are a funy man...and helpful too):

    Anything that you got that might help, especially any examples or ideas where to see performance based specs for an apparatus of this type.

    I want to make a worthwile presentation to the company, not just some load of fluff. What can I do to try and convince them? Should I go out to the area and measure things like roads, driveways, setbacks etc..if so in what manner would I want to do this and what types of measurments are important?

    Good info so far guys, thank you.

  15. #15
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    ...What's a pedistal pump?

    It is a pump and volute, without all the castings for suctions, discharges etc. Very small, canbe $15,000 less than a traditional pump, easier to maintain too.

    The plumbing, stainless can be customized to the size and exactatude you desire. Thus really small pump area, say you want everything out one side and no panel on the other so you get a huge compartment.

    ...750 gallon tank(i'd probably order it will 1000 gallon)(it's better to have to much water on board than to little) I know you loose hosebed space.(

    You don't have to lose water tank for hosebed or visa versa. If you'd buy a big tank on an engine then do the same on a quint.

    ...now far as brands you can't go wrong with a pierce

    All the whinning about Richmond is also whinning about Pierce.

    Like Mongo says, lots of issues are people issues not fire truck issues. Pretty cool to hear another member say his high paid members will not change.

    ...Should I go out to the area and measure things like roads, driveways, setbacks etc..if so in what manner would I want to do this and what types of measurments are important?

    Absolutely. Take the whaleout and approach the tough intersections. Get its, cramp angle, State in the spec's make a x by x intersection without backing.

    Find out where te streets and driveways are youcannot make with any rig and propose a solution or ask the builders for one.

  16. #16
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    ...Same goes for the 58 year old with 1 year left before he retires whose been on an Engine

    Oh man, I know the feeling...

    Our what you call R&D guy is a ROADy.

    We need them old timers, but some are a stubborn as a mule. To be fair to them though, I used to be too...

    I could tell you some stories-but why give you ammo to pummel me with later?

    C'mon man I don't mind swapping I did something stupid stories.

    One night when I was younger, responding to an auto alarm I tell the engineer "eh, just spot the truck right here" and he said "are you sure" and I said "yeah, I'm sure." "OK, you da boss."

    And ol' mongo steps out of the truck to the longest first step I think I ever stepped, it seemed like I fell forever into that bar ditch I missed when we was rolling up...

    M G

    Anything that you got that might help.

    OK, let me see what I can root up. May take a day or so.

    What can I do to try and convince them?

    OK, you lost me. Are you trying to convince them you need a quint or "how much" of a quint you need?

    Should I go out to the area and measure things like roads, driveways, setbacks etc..if so in what manner would I want to do this and what types of measurments are important?

    You're over my head here, don't know about the measurements and how to do all that stuff. That's what pencil pushing engineers are for. They can look at your performance based specs that say:

    "The apparatus shall be able to turn from a 28' roadway into an 14' alley without having to do wye turn" or something similar and tell you whether they can do it or not.

    Apparatus that were spec'd with a turning radius that was correct for a city's smallest turns and cul-de-sacs, but that can't actually make these turns or cul-de-sacs are all over the place because the truck is X' longer in the front and X' more in the rear. Consequently the truck can't make the turns if there is a car, fence, wall or anything higher than a curb because the bumper will hit it.

    Have the local reps bring a demo to you, or find a fire truck, delevery truck or something that is big enough to simulate your quint and drive it around and see how it goes.

    [ 12-31-2001: Message edited by: mongofire_99 ]


  17. #17
    M G
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    Happy New Year

    Thaks for the info so far guys.

    If any of you have ideas for websites besides the manufacturers where I can see some good ideas, please post them. All the data I can collect helps.

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