1. #1
    omcia
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post Door Removal Operation

    In order to insert the spreaders' tip into the door's crack (for a door removal) to expose the hinges a small gap shall be created. IFSTA recommends several techniques including the use of a halligan tool, to clamp the door or to collapse the quarterpanel in order to insert the spreader. Do you recommend other tactics like "ramming" the spreader forcefully into the door's crack or to use a sledge hammer in combination with a striking tool to create the desired gap ?

  2. #2
    skip rupert61
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    There are many ways to create a small gap, or as we call it a purchase point. The IFSTA manual covers most of the more common practices. However, the truth of the matter is that on impact, the metal will crunch itself enough to create the purchase point needed. If it doesnt create enough of a gap, the fender pinch, door pinch, or verticle displacement (spread the door down by putting the spreader arms where the window would be. Top tip to the roof, bottom tip on the top of the door and spread so the door goes down/out).
    As far as ramming the spreaders in the door or using a sledge hammer, just one question. Have you ever been inside a car during an extrication?
    Spreaders are not ramming tools... and unless you are using a sledge hammer or flat head axe to knock the halligan tool in deeper, try to refrain from pounding or "ramming". Lots of noise and the car will shake. Not good for patient care.
    Just one rescuers opinioin...
    Skip.....

  3. #3
    firetoad
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    This is just a quickie, but I just finished taking an operations and maintenance class taught by Amkus(supplier of our tools). The instructor stated that ramming the tips to create a purchase point is a big NO NO. He stated that not only will you gradually "chisel" the tips, you are putting yourself in danger of a catastrophic tip failure. In other words, you run the risk of breaking a tip.
    As for my department, we use one of the other above mentioned procedures.


    ------------------
    Todd Metzger
    tmetz@umr.edu
    RRFD, 422
    Specialist/Engineer/Mentor


  4. #4
    Ed D
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Ramming, and striking the vehicle send the vibration straight to the patient (who we are all there to help) We try not to beat on anything, even cribbing. There are many ways to get an access point for the spreader tips. A Vertical crush between the roof and door. Crushing the fender above the wheel. Using the adz of the halligan (not beating it in) and prying laterally with the tool. Squeezing the door itself. All will give you access to the hinge side for door removal on modern cars and access to safety bolts on older cars.


    ------------------

  5. #5
    firetoad
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Skip,
    This is a little off subject, but I thought that it would be neat to share. You posed the question, which I missed before, about being present inside the vehicle while an extrication is going on. I have been before during a "real", non-training extrication. You certainly don't want anymore movement than is absolutely necessary. Anyway, what I was getting at, we require each one of our probationary firefighters to take a minimum of two actual extrication training exercises before even being allowed on the extrication calls. During these extrication training exercises, we generally have anywhere from 3 to 5 vehicles to cut on. All of the new guys/gals are required to sit in the vehicle, at least once, and actually be extricated from it. The new ones get to be cut out by us older guys. It is a great way to have the new firefighters realize, in some respect, what the pt is going through. The noises, fear, etc. that are all associated with an extrication. That way, hopefully, they will be more conscious of the pt while doing future extrications.
    I apologize for being off subject as such, but I thought that it would be an interesting addition to the topic.

    ------------------
    Todd Metzger
    tmetz@umr.edu
    RRFD, 422
    Specialist/Engineer/Mentor


  6. #6
    NVFD933
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Lightbulb

    I HAVE FOUND THAT A HALIGAN TOOL WILL MAKE A NICE PURCHASE POINT WHILE CUASING THE LEAST DISRUPTION TO THE OCCUPANT.

    I WOULD LIKE TO ADD, THAT YOU SHOULD CHECK THE HANDLE OF THE DOOR FIRST. IT MAY LOOK LIKE A MANGLED MESS BUT YOU MIGHT BE SURPRISED HOW MANY WILL STILL WORK. I AM NOT SAYING THAT YOU CAN WALK UP AND JUST OPEN THE DOOR, BUT IT MAY OPEN ENOUGH THAT YOU WILL NOT HAVE TO MAKE A FORCEFUL PURCHASE POINT.

  7. #7
    skip rupert61
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Todd, great idea. We try and do the same thing. You might have noticed I started another topic to cover this. Wanted to see what the rest of the community thought. Lets keep this one to taking doors off.

    Thanks for your input...

    skip

  8. #8
    Lt JACK JASPERSON
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Just an opinion on door spreading. I think we as the fire rescue community need to start thinking for the future. We need to start getting into the habit of exploring alternative solutions to doing simple tasks such as spreading doors. Why? Let's examine a simple door spread. You go up to the vehicle, make a purchase point, whatever way you choose, and spread the door off the nader pin (like all of us were taught to do). As you spread, the side airbag or thoracic bag or whatever new fangled bag that this vehicle has decides to do its job and deploy. You crushed the sensor and it deployed the airbag. We need to start teaching taking the door from the hinge side. Or even look at making 2 cuts with the sawzall and removing the door with the spreader still on the rig. Don't get me wrong, spreaders work great, but we need to be proactive and address this airbag thing. Our department has adopted the position of spreading from the hinge side of the door. That's not to say that we don't know our construction or look for airbags, but habits are habits. So let's get into good habits before the old habits get someone hurt. Be safe and have fun.

    ------------------
    Lt Jack R Jasperson

  9. #9
    skip rupert61
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Jack, very well said. Our department, and I have been teaching the hinge side first method for about 10 years now. Have always liked it better. Keeps the rescuer and tool outside the car at all times, as well as the advantages you mention with the airbags. Here is another quick tip... You know that spinkler wedge you keep in you helmet, well, have the inside EMS persone stick it in the door handle and wedge it open (if possible). When doing this, a lot of the time, when the 2nd hinge in failed, the door slides off the nader (retaining) bolt. Makes you look like you really know what your doing. Just another job for the seldom used sprinkler wedge.

    Skip

  10. #10

    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    3

    Default

    Pinching the fender for a purchase point is what our dept. uses for door removal. We remove the fender and then attack the door. It puts you ready for a dash lift. I know I'm straying from the topic but, you have to know what to cut to get the job done. No extrication is the same. Practice safety for your crew and patient. Nobody mentioned to clear the glass. This should be done before door removal nomatter what method.

  11. #11
    Fire Captain, LVRS

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Laurel, MD
    Posts
    36

    Default

    you can use various tool to widen the gap, I have seen things like a Hydraram or rabbit-tool make a very quick, large gap in fender. Just think about the tools you have in your tool box and think about the possibilities associated with that tool to the job it's designed for and other jobs it can do.

    We have also had the pleasure of using a newer forcible entry tool called the weddle tool (http://www.weddletoolco.com) and used that in a pinch to remotely(deep in the woods) ram a roof, with the tool placed vertical, off of the patient's head and create a void space for patient packaging.

    So, like I said, using the tool for what it was designed (non destructive forcible entry) or something else that it would work for (ramming a roof of a car) is part of understand and training for the "What If?" incidents that responders so often face.

  12. #12
    Forum Member
    MetalMedic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    The Home of Smucker's Jelly
    Posts
    1,266

    Default

    One of my biggest pet peeves is when I see someone taking a $10,000 plus hydraulic tool and use it like a battering ram. As pointed out, you are just exposing the tool to potential damage by doing this. Along with making a lot of noise inside and shaking the patient, you are putting force onto the tips at 180 degrees from where they are strongest. Besides that, they are not designed to be a very good striking tool to begin with. If you see a tool with chipped tips, there is a good chance that someone used it for a battering ram at some point.

    If you have a hallogen with you, that would be my tool of choice to establish a purchase point. If you have the hallogan set up with a flat head axe, you can use the axe to "encourage" the adze into the opening if need be. If you don't have the hallogan, then pinching the fender will almost always work.
    Richard Nester
    Orrville (OH) Fire Dept.

    "People don't care what you know... until they know that you care." - Scott Bolleter

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register