A question for all you extrication wizards.
An idea, maybe someone has tried it.
In the old days dash roll was easy, attach a chain from the steering wheel column to the front frame. Simply draw the chain together, and the dash rises. On new model vehicles this is no longer an option. At a recent 18 wheeler vs. hondai; head-on, rams weren't much help either. Aiming for rapid extrication, we couldn't play. Later, we thought of this: Drive a halogen down through a vent of the dash, to the floor. Drop a chain down the hole, rap it to a 4x4 placed verticaly against the dash. Rap the other end of the chain to the front frame. Last, draw the chain ends together, with the intent of rolling the dash. Anyone got any opinions, or seen this done B4?
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Thread: Dash Roll
03-23-2000, 02:55 AM #1sullivan3Firehouse.com Guest
03-23-2000, 03:08 AM #2Squad33Firehouse.com Guest
Yep, I tried it a few weekends ago at a EMT extrication class I helped out with. The 1st day was all hand tools, no big power toys allowed. The students used a come a long to pull the chains. Worked allright, but when they tried the Hi Lift it worked better. I did notice that it DID not displace the dash all that much, but a few inches may be all you need.
Stay Safe, Play Hard
03-25-2000, 11:10 PM #3MetalMedicFirehouse.com Guest
If you had the same situation again, and your idea was used and did the trick, I would say it was a pretty good option. Not knowing exactly what your situation was makes it difficult to make suggestions. Just some food for thought, be sure you aren't thinking 2-dimmensionally when using the hydraulic tools. While a dash roll was not an option, could you have used a ram horizontally and displaced the steering column enough to accomplish patient removal? I was recently on an 18-wheeler crash with a victim traped hanging upside down and over the edge of a bridge. After using the spreader and ram to try to move metal horizontally, the wrecker operator made the suggestion to go vertical with the ram... sure enough, did the trick (and I should have known better).
Something I like the switch the cliche to say, "Don't just do something, stand there!". In other words, if something isn't working, don't be afraid to stop, re-evaluate, and try something different.
Orrville (OH) Fire Dept.
04-01-2000, 07:26 PM #4DieselFirehouse.com Guest
We frequently trained for dash rolls in the "olden days" utilizing a come-along and chains in a similar fashion to what you described. The come-along was anchored to the front of the vehicle/frame and the "working" chain was fed down throught holes created in the defroster vents with hooligan bars or whatever worked. The "working" chain was then fed down through the dash, close to the fire wall, and looped around the dash. We placed our cribbing in a horizontal plane underneath and on the front of the dash to a) displace the force of the pull over a greater area, and b) to protect the trapped passengers from the flying plastic that always seems to be displaced when the "pull" is initiated. This technique worked very well for us, and we still keep it in our "bag of tricks" for those rare occasions when the power hydraulics are tied up somewhere else, or can't be used for some reason. I agree with Richard whole-heartedly...always have a "Plan B", and use whatever works. (And just because you've got those new hydraulics worth about a bajillion bucks doesn't mean that the "old fashioned" hand tools should be forgotten about...train for those "Plan B" situations as well and they won't catch you scratchin your head when the ?*#@ hits the fan).
04-02-2000, 11:15 PM #5pokeyfd12Firehouse.com Guest
Just reading all of your posts, this old rescue dog learned a new trick.
I remember reading one of Ron Moore's columns in relation to a modified dash roll. In actuality, the dash didn't move at all, it was the floorboard that moved. If you can't pull the dash up, push the floor down. It does require some tools, a cutter of some sort to notch the A post between the top and bottom front door hinges and a notch at the rocker panel 12 inches or so from the A post corner. A hydraulic ram, wide jaw spreader or even a hi lift jack with some 4 X 4 might push the floor pan down far enough to facilitate rescue. This works mostly in accidents where the front end can't be accessed/moved for variety of reasons, pole, tree, truck etc.
This may not be a feasible technique on all cars due to some manufacturers placing fuel lines, air bag sensor lines, electrical wires etc under the rocker panels.
Just an idea. Usually the simplest ideas are the best. If it doesn't work maybe somebody can modify it and come up with a better idea.
Have a nice day,
Rescue Lt. Kevin C. (aka Pokey)
04-03-2000, 06:08 PM #6cp-nyFirehouse.com Guest
Here's a pic using the jack unit from the Res-Q-Jack Model RJ3 unit setup in a ram configuration with end fittings at each end along w/ a short extension. The new base design allows for quick removal of the jack from the stabilization stand. I used the cutting techniques described to me by Ron Shaw which he refers to as the "modified dash roll": make vertical relief cut at top of fender between a-post and front wheel, make horizontal relief cut at base of a-post, remove 4" section of a-post above dash. Jack extends 12" and performed this roll with ease. Picture was taken at a class held by Billy Leach & Ron Shaw in Berkeley Heights, NJ this past weekend. Not a replacement for hydraulics, but another option, backup, or simply another means to justify the addition of some friendly stabilization equipment?
[This message has been edited by cp-ny (edited April 03, 2000).]
04-14-2000, 04:37 PM #7raricciutiFirehouse.com Guest
I really like the alternative of moving the floor down when the dash won't go up - thinking "out of the box"! (pun intended). Saw a presentation from a Holmatro rep recently, and he brough up using very short rams vertically under the dash; this could either push the dash up or the floor down, whichever is weakest. Good idea! Don't forget about moving the seat back also - sometimes this buys you the inch or two you need.
P.S. - Got any pictures of the vertical 4x4 thing?
R.A. Ricciuti, Firefighter
Mt. Lebanon Fire Department
04-27-2000, 05:29 PM #8Ken MetzlerFirehouse.com Guest
Here is an option, punch hole through defroster with bar (remember you may have body parts under there so dont be spearchucker jones)chain down and around the steering column and up outside of dash in a continuous loop. 4x4 cribbing in an H shape 1 on firewall 1 on roof 1 verticle centered over steering coll. Place high lift jack or spreaders on verticle 4x4 hook chain over foot or tip and spread. You may have one person holding the beam of the jack while one runs the handle to stabilize the lift. This is just another method and keeps you away from the "loaded Bumpers.."
05-17-2000, 11:52 PM #9BC WhiteFirehouse.com Guest
With your res-q-jack in place (as pictured), how do you remove your patient? Since there is no center console, would you then board your patient and bring them out the driver side door?
05-19-2000, 01:52 AM #10cp-nyFirehouse.com Guest
I would suggest that once patient is free from entanglement or crush area that the tool be removed assuming patient may be sufficiently shifted clear of relaxing components.
If it is not possible to remove the tool for some reason, then you have the option of driver door access or access patient with roof removal and possibly seat back removal?
Of course if hydraulics are available, I would first choose to use the spreaders for this operation, but what if I don't have them or they are out of service? In that case I've got another option with equipment intended for stabilization.
Assuming the vehicle is resting on its wheels, stabilization can typically be accomplished with cribbing or stepblocks leaving the Res-Q-Jack (RJ3 model) available as a backup ram to perform the roll if needed. I think it gives a rescue team more bang for their buck particularly if they lack both stabilization equipment and hydraulics?
I do not recommend purchasing with the intent to use in lieu of hydraulics, but I do recommend considering how else one might use their stabilization equipment to help justify the investment and simply offer additional options in other areas.
Thanks for the post, made me do some thinking - ouch.
05-28-2000, 05:20 PM #11SquirrelFirehouse.com Guest
I don't know if I missed something or not on this one? Why don't you just use the spreaders? You can either push off the A post to the rocker panel or go off the rocker panel to the steering column. If the driver's side is inaccesable you can go from the transmission hump to the steering column.
You may also make a relief cut on the A post with your cutters to help with the move and also provide a notch for your spreader tip. I hope this helps. Squirrel
05-29-2000, 11:28 PM #12cp-nyFirehouse.com Guest
I may be wrong, but the way I viewed this post was that everyone realizes that hydraulics are naturally the best way to go. However, there are a number of departments out there without them. In addition, one would be ill prepared if they knew of no other option in the event the hydraulics were out of service. So you are right, its just that we've been looking at other methods.
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