1. #1
    Ron Shaw
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Angry Texas Death Match - Who's Tools are Better?

    This seems to be an endless question. If you want to stir up some heat on a forum, just ask the simple question "What tool do you recommend or which will work the best?" then stand back!

    I would like to have a Texas Death Match, finally once and for all find out which tool and equipment will out perform the other. Get this endless wagging dog to finally lay down so we can move on to more important topics.

    So perhaps we can get Firehouse-Ron Moore to pull it together. Invite all the good ole boys (rescue tool companies) to bring everything they have and let's get it down.

    We can lay out a set of objectives that each tool must meet, get the same quality vehicles or materials to cut or spread for each evolution. Each company will do the exact same enabling objective for each evolution or test. To keep things on an even keel, only the manufacturers representatives should be allowed to use the equipment.

    Let the rescue tool companies battle it out instead of the responders on the forums. I don't think the concept of forums was for one vendor to pit against the other or one die hard tool fan to take offense to anothers personal opinion.

    Personally, this only turns me off from that particular tool and the worst is that tool company may put out a darn good product.

    We all have our favorite tools, everyone, for one reason or another. But my reason for liking a particular tool is not going to be the same as someone else's.

    Just the same as the way we do a particular extrication. There are more ways to get the objective done, the end result should be it gets done in a timely manner and safely. All the tools on the market today will do the job, it's a matter of personal opinion for the most part.

    I Challenge the tool companies to the Texas Death Match, lets do it and get it on!

    Regards,
    Ron Shaw

    ------------------
    Ron Shaw http://www.extrication.com


    [This message has been edited by Ron Shaw (edited 12-02-2000).]

  2. #2
    Ron Shaw
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Thumbs up

    Just a little update, I received an email today from Larry Anderson, Hurst supports the Texas Death Match and would like to participate. Any other tool manufacturers willing to participate in an open competition, lets get it on!

    Ron Shaw
    Extrication.Com
    rshaw@extrication.com


    ------------------
    Ron Shaw http://www.extrication.com

    [This message has been edited by Ron Shaw (edited 12-02-2000).]

  3. #3
    CollegeBuff
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Hey Ron- I'm thinking Discovery Channel...

  4. #4
    7604
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    hey ron maybe we could set up a death match
    at the expo I just e-mailed you about

  5. #5
    Ron Shaw
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    I sent an email to Ron Moore with the same suggestion, I sent Harvey Eisner an email as well. Perhaps there may be a chance of this happening especially since the tool companies will already be there. If we get enough support I am sure Firehouse will look seriously into it. If not Extrication.Com will try to work things out.

    ------------------
    Ron Shaw
    http://www.extrication.com

  6. #6
    Carl Avery
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Hey Ron,
    As you well know, this has been talked about before, I have even chatted with the some of the good folks at York County PA. Fire School about doing this or something similar. One thing I will say while I support the idea We will NEVER come up with a Definitive Answer, The Car Magazines and Consumer Reports do this all the time with cars, and you know what, people keep buy all the different makes. We could how ever come out with some very good objective information. One point too that we should cover is the Power cuves each tool has. I have seen charts of tests that one manufacturer had done of the different brands/models of tools (What forces at what width) Each "curve" I saw was different. This has a lot to do with the geometry of the Jaws and such. Why do I bring this up? I wish we as a whole could have access to this data. Some tools have "FLAT SPOTS" in some areas, If we as end users knew what they were we could try to avoid using our tool in a Less than optimal method. In other words match the strengths of our tools (no matter what make or model) to the Resuce Challenge we have at Hand. Just a thought I sure we can come up with more as we continue our discussion

    ------------------
    Rescue is the Art & Science of matching your tools, talents and tricks to needs of our customers!
    Carl D. Avery

  7. #7
    Ron Shaw
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Question

    Carl I had thoughts of a bench-strength test then let the manufacturers put together the best of their best to do actual evolutions:

    Single Door Removal (Combi Tool)
    Single Door Removal (Spreaders)
    Single Door Removal (Cutters)
    Side Take Down (Two Doors as a singel Unit)
    Roof Removal
    Roof Flap
    Jacking a Dash (Spreaders)
    Dash Roll (Ram or Spreaders)
    Modified Dash Roll (with spreaders)
    Third Door Conversion (Combi Tool)
    Cutting or pulling a Brake Pedal

    We could have a tool off with reciprocationg saws and Hand Tools as well.

    Roof Removal
    Roof Flap
    Single Door Removal
    Side Take Down (both doors)
    Third Door Conversion
    Longest Run Cut (verticle roof)

    The final event could be mixed rescue tool timed event, no cutting hydraulic tools, only hand, air or electric reciprocationg saws. These can be conbined with the best two winning teams.

    No cutting steering wheel columns, lifts or pulls.

    Then the over all winner will be selected by points. So in the end, it's tool against tool, and team against team. Any unsafe procedures will deduct points or seconds off the score.

    You can still get the stats you need from the bench test and then we can see who the best practical evolution team is. If it goes well perhaps it can be a yearly event. Move over NASCAR!

    Your thoughts?



    ------------------
    Ron Shaw
    http://www.extrication.com

  8. #8
    Zmag
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    You forgot one catagory. What tool system is the easiest, fastest, and most secure stabilazation system from the compartment to the street. Add that one and you can count me in.
    Zmag
    PS: and most bang for the buck

  9. #9
    Ron Shaw
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Hi Mike,

    No reason to leave anyone out, you have a rescue tool use for extricaiton, we should be able to find a catagory.

    ------------------
    Ron Shaw
    http://www.extrication.com

  10. #10
    RSQLT43
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Cool

    Hey Ron, I know a dealer for TNT that said he would be glad to participate in a show down like this.

    Im sure Cepco tools would show up also.

  11. #11
    MetalMedic
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Talking

    FINALLY!!! A real head-to-head look at what is out there. Good discussion going on here. I would also like to see a bench test prior to actual evolutions. I also feel that each manufacturer should have some input so that someone from the competition doesn't get an unfair advantage for a particular evolution.

    I like the list of all the potential evolutions Mr. Shaw lists, but I think we need to keep the K.I.S.S. principles in mind here. If we do alot of different things, I think it would be harder to compare apples to apples (would also take a lot of near identical vehicles). I would suggest one particular evolution for each tool (spreader, cutter and ram).

    An effort should be made to send invitations to all companies to participate. We certainly don't want anyone to be left out of this one. You also need to have some independent judges with some knowledge of the mechanics of these tools to go over them before and after the event. As some of you probably know, there are companies out there that will exceed their tool specifications for demo purposes to put on a good show. This does not give a fair representation of what the actual capabilites are of that tool.



    ------------------
    Richard Nester
    Orrville (OH) Fire Dept.


    [This message has been edited by MetalMedic (edited 12-04-2000).]

  12. #12
    Ron Shaw
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Question

    Sarg (Rich),

    More good suggestions coming in from Rich. I would hate to think that a tool company would jack pressures up for something like this. However, if you feel this is a problem, the power units can easily be put on a gauge prior to the match by judges.

    What is your thought about attending responders taking a written survey at the end of the match to give to the tool makers there ideas or suggestions to improvements that they would like to see in a future tool?

    Ron



    ------------------
    Ron Shaw
    http://www.extrication.com

  13. #13
    SCCARESCUE
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Ron,
    Great idea! However, I disagree with one concept: The test needs to be more scientific. I think that manufacturer reps need to set up their tools, but an unbiased team needs to put them thru their pace. That same team needs to test each tool. This would help to eliminate a "human factor". Some reps may have developed certain demo techniques that would actually enhance their tools performance. These techniques may not be available to all who purchase the equipment, so it could be concieved as an advantage. With an unbiased team, and that team doing all the tests, I think you would go a very long ways towards eliminating the human factor.

    And while we are talking about a more scientific approach, maybe a more basic approach to the tests themslves. Maybe use springs, tensionometers, etc to measure the actual strength of each tool - test all the same way with the same equipment. Not as fun or spectacular as cutting cars, but certainly more scientific. I think that is what the fire rescue service needs - good solid data all based upon the same exact tests.
    I think that cutting cars would open up the tests for criticism based upon certain failures of certain cars, different spread and crush points from tool to tool, etc. Basically do the same thing UL does, or consumer reports does. Determine and distribute the REAL facts! I think alot of people would really like that info!


    ------------------
    Dan Martelle

  14. #14
    MetalMedic
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Thumbs up

    Originally posted by Ron Shaw:
    Sarg (Rich),

    More good suggestions coming in from Rich. I would hate to think that a tool company would jack pressures up for something like this. However, if you feel this is a problem, the power units can easily be put on a gauge prior to the match by judges.

    What is your thought about attending responders taking a written survey at the end of the match to give to the tool makers there ideas or suggestions to improvements that they would like to see in a future tool?

    Ron


    It is so wierd being called "Sarg" on this forum....

    I think a survey by those in attendence would certainly be in order. Many eyes will see many different things. I am sure the manufacturers would welcome all comments.

    I agree to some extent with Dan's comments as well. The only problem being, how do you find an "unbiased" group of users to test the tools? I have used many, but I have a couple I prefer over others and probably would find less fault in them than those I have had bad experiences with.

    The scientific tests he suggests are what I had in mind by a "bench test". We need to measure forces, opening and closing speeds (with and without a load), weights, balance, etc. I would also suspect there would be some way to have identical mock-ups made of door assemblies and such if there was enough publicity involved to find sponsorship. Something to look into.

    Keep us posted!!


    ------------------
    Richard Nester
    Orrville (OH) Fire Dept.

  15. #15
    fireman_387
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Try NFPA 1936, Standards on powered rescue tools.

  16. #16
    Ron Shaw
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Thumbs up

    "Fireman_387 wrote: Try NFPA 1936, Standards on powered rescue tools.

    I will try to research the standards unless you have a copy of them. One problem I see with researching the NFPA standards is the jumping around to all the volumes to collect the whole picture on subject matter you need.

    I receive an email from Holmatro, they have sent me a copy of the testing of tools done in England a couple years ago. According to Holmatro, at the time, their tools were the over winner. We could use the European test criteria for our bench test format as well as anyother information the other readers can come up with for what they believe to be the best challenge for the tools.

    ------------------
    Ron Shaw
    http://www.extrication.com

  17. #17
    Fireboy422
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Thumbs down

    The tool is only as good as the imagination of the user. No matter how you set up a "showdown" you could never take the human element out of it. The single best extrication tool is the imagination of the rescuer

  18. #18
    fireman_387
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Fireboy... Words of wisdom, and in your very first post... You response on the human element is right on track.

  19. #19
    MetalMedic
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Talking

    Originally posted by Fireboy422:
    The tool is only as good as the imagination of the user. No matter how you set up a "showdown" you could never take the human element out of it. The single best extrication tool is the imagination of the rescuer

    Yep.. you do make a good point there. Now we can have a completely new argument to make..

    "I can take a car apart faster with a Phoenix tool than you can with a "Brand X" tool!"

    It has been interesting to see the "my tool is better than your tool" arguments on this forum. But Fireboy is completely correct in his post, any tool in the right hands will be faster than any other tool in the wrong hands. If you have been around the fire service for a while, you probably know of someone who will do circles around your hydraulic tools using only saws, chains and come-a-longs.

    Let's not miss the forest for looking at the trees. I would still like to see a true and fair head-to-head between hydraulic tool companies. But never forget that YOU need to competent with whatever tool you have in order to do that job at hand.




    ------------------
    Richard Nester
    Orrville (OH) Fire Dept.

  20. #20
    Carl Avery
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Exclamation

    A lot of good points brought up by all and rest assured the "Declared Winner" would put it in all their adds, reffer back to Ron's post where Holmatro informed them about winning in Europe, I also have a report from Europe on a test done on the POWER HAWK and how well it did (of course I got this from my Friends at POWER HAWK) I can honestly say that I felt it was relativly unbiased, as it pointed out positives and negatives. But Over all it was good and guess what Power Hawk used as an advertising tool in certain settings, Not that much different from what you may find in your Local Car Dealership. Bottom line it is all about marketing. Let me add my congratualations to FIREBOY, his observations are ON THE MONEY. the most important part on any tool is the "OPERATING NUT". Now having said all that I do think the TEST is an appropiate action. But lets get base line information on all the tools in as many situations as possible. Just Like different cars different tools have Plusses and Minusess But if we can help ourselves KNOW how our tools perform maybe the "OPERATING NUTZ" can get the most out of them and that is the ULTIMATE CONTEST!

    ------------------
    Rescue is the Art & Science of matching your tools, talents and tricks to needs of our customers!
    Carl D. Avery

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register