Does your department have SOPs or seat assignments for extrications?
I attended an advanced ex class that preached preplanned assignments but can it work in a volly department? It seems when we roll in nobody knows for sure what their task will be. Yes, we establish command, do a 360, patient assessment, vehicle stabilization, etc., etc. and things usually click and we get the job done.
Could we improve by developing an SOP(G) with assigned tasks? The trouble I see is you're never sure of the experience level of the crew you may have on board.
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Thread: Extrication "seat assignments"
01-23-2001, 09:19 PM #1Ten8_Ten19Firehouse.com Guest
Extrication "seat assignments"
01-24-2001, 09:23 AM #2Lewiston2CaptFirehouse.com Guest
It is a good idea. I am not sure that it would work in the same way that it does with the paid depts, though. Seat assignments should be related to staging of equipment. Each seat has an assigned list of items to stage. While this is going on the officer sizes up the scene and assigns tasks to the crew.
Shawn M. Cecula
Lewiston Fire Co. No. 2
01-24-2001, 09:53 AM #386RescuetechFirehouse.com Guest
Will this work in a volly company? Good food for thought. we operate with a large crew on our rescue truck, usually 8-12. We have the advantage to have both our Chief and Deputy work in our area and can leave for all calls. They go to the scene and size up what needs to be done, with imput from the medic and host company(when we play away games). This usually gives the officer on the rescue enough time to look over the crew and assign tasks. Actually setting up seat assignments would be tough. It works for engine company ops, when there is a limited number of tasks to be done. In rescue ops. there is a multi-tude of tasks, and you might have to improvise on some. If everyone was trained equally and learned equally, that would be utopia. But we know the reallity, you have more faith in some techs than others. Some basic assignments, especially for juniors or new members, are setting up lighting, staging tarps, and fire suppression stand by. Developing SOP's for basic assignments to be done is a good idea, but to assign a person who sits in a certain spot on the truck would be difficult to follow. I hope this helps. Be safe.
01-24-2001, 10:26 AM #4HYTHE FIRE DEPARTMENTFirehouse.com Guest
We struggled with this very same question in October of 2000. We have just started doing vehicle extrication, and we wanted to start with good habits right from day one. We suffer the same problems that you would suffer in regards to experience levels. To over come this, we have developed laminated cheat sheets for each seat in our rescue (4 seats). As we usually have a little drive to get to the scene (390 sq. mile area), the crew has some time to read the laminated sheets and remind themselves of what exactly has to be done when we get on scene.
For example, the rear passenger left side is responsible for getting the fire extinguisher from the back left compartment. He then has to move to the right side of the unit, and remove the staging tarp and unroll it in the staging area (our tarp has dozens of small hand tools in pockets sown onto the tarp). He then has to empty the back right compartment onto the staging tarp. Once he is done, he has to stand by the staging area for further instructions. The driver is responsible for starting the generator on the left side of the rescue, removing and placing either flares or traffic cones to protect the scene. The rear right passenger is responsible for starting the hydraulic pump and setting up the tools.
All of this information is on the cheat sheet in point form. In training it worked very well. At our first official accident, it did not work, as we all got tunnel vision and focused on the accident and not on our jobs. That was mostly my fault for not reminding everyone of his or her jobs.
We had thought of taking the job duties a step further and having assigned duties for the actual extrication. This proved not possible as only 10 of the 20 members have the full extrication training from a recognized institution.
It works well for us, as it allows IC to do the survey without having to tell others what to do. It also makes sure all of the required equipment is staged so that you donít have to constantly run to the truck for more tools. It also keeps the crew busy during the survey and size up, reducing the possibility of tunnel vision, provided the IC reminds the crew of what needs to be done on route.
01-24-2001, 11:52 AM #5Ten8_Ten19Firehouse.com Guest
In the class I took the instructor referred to the "Montana Method". He didn't say and I didn't get to ask whether this came from the great state of Montana or from Joe Montana. The concept is for the first crew of four to get off the rig and 2 FF grab step chocks, tarp and a set of cutters with a glass punch taped to the handle of the cutters. They do an inner 360 and initial patient assessment, initial stabilization of the vehicle, battery disconnect and glass removal. Meanwhile the IC is doing an outer 360 and the 4th FF is staging tools. Additional arriving units also have assigned tasks but I don't remember them all. It sounded like a well-coreographed response.
Sure sounded good on paper.
Thanks for the replies.
01-24-2001, 12:04 PM #6sledgehammerFirehouse.com Guest
In the overall scene veiw this is prob. the most important question of all. If your scene is not organized it will turn into a giant cluster. Sops are designed to keep things from becoming a cluster. But I know how it is with volly deptments. You have some people trained at higher levels than others. That is your first obstical. Developing good sops are your second.
You need to develope your sop to fit your dept. and the equipment that you use. The basic framework of a scene is pretty much all the same. Pt care , fire safty, and the actual extrication itself.
There is a really good way for your crew to develope a good flow.
Set up a scene and run a simple extrication simulation. At the begining of the scene give everyone thier instructions for the certian jobs you have set up. At the start of your simulation DONT ALLOW ANYONE TO SPEAK. Let them use hand signals or anything else they want but dont let anyone talk. This will make everyone have to know what everyone else is doing. Our chief did this to us and it was very effective. Now when we go on a scene everyone pretty much knows what the other is doing or what they need before they even ask for it. Hope this helps.
01-24-2001, 02:45 PM #7Ten8_Ten19Firehouse.com Guest
Great drill idea.
01-25-2001, 06:47 PM #8RJEFirehouse.com Guest
The vol. dept I was on used seat assignments for everything. Sample for extrication as follows.
Response for MVA would be 1 Engine and rescue squad (2/3 man F-350 type lt/med rescue). Paramedic or EMT qualled were expected to respond on the squad, sometimes had 1 or 2 EMT-Bs on the engine as well, depending on time of day.
Squad right seat, Patient care, inside size up, bring the med box.
Squad driver (by driver qual required to know where all equip is located on 'his' apparatus, bring either extracation tools or patient stabilization (backboards and collars, etc) based on initial sizeup.
Engine right seat, overall scene OIC, outside 360, extrication director. This seat would be filled by the most experienced FF (usually a station captain or Lt). He also brings the PPK can since it's mounted on his side of the cab.
Right jump seat (closest to "rescue" compartment, which includes first aid kits and rescue ropes, etc) - if engine beats the squad, grab first aid kit and do initial patient stabilization, if squad crew has the patient, grab tool box and disconn the battery, then get cribbing.
Left jump seat (closest to cribbing compartment) vehicle stabilization. If fuel tanks are leaking, skip that and grab a line (1-3/4 preconn - fog/foam).
Engine driver - spot rig to protect scene from traffic, stand by the pump if a line is pulled, set up lights if needed.
All engine personnel are "manpower" to assist with actual extrication or patient care, at direction of the OIC (engine right seat). Typically, as long as we don't have a line charged, the driver and left jump seat end up grabbing cutters and such and doing the actual ext, while the right side jump seat assists the squad with patient care.
Note: by convention, the junior person that gets on the rig is expected to be left jump seat, followed by right jump seat. Right front is always senior person who made the truck (all personnel respond to station), so in this scenario, the EMTs have all the rescue gear on the squad, the senior guy is in charge (from the engine) and the junior guys playing gofer' are the jump seats.
It always worked, since if a more senior person showed up while you were suiting up (or waiting on a qualled driver) you just got bumped down a seat.
01-27-2001, 09:16 AM #9HAMMER14Firehouse.com Guest
Just a few comments about some of the other posts.
"Volly's" are not the only ones with different levels of training. That goes the same for most career firefighters that I know.
Around here if you don't know where every piece of equipment is on a piece of apparatus, your not even allowed to ride it. Every one should know where everything is at, not just the driver.
Here we do not use seat assignments. We can go out the door with anywhere from 4 to 8 people, not including chiefs. Enroute to the call the senior person in the back of the Squad hands out assignments to each individual person.
Ex. - If there are 6 in the back, 3 get stabilization, 2 get hydraulic tools, 1 gets the windshield bag.
The driver is responsible for the staging of any extra tools that may be needed. The officer on the Squad is usually in charge of the extrication. While the Chief is in charge of the whole scene.
These are just guidelines, more people can be assigned certain other duties if needed.
One good thing about this is that there are some rookies in the back they can be paired up with more experienced individuals. This way they can be supervised doing more compilcated tasks and get the experience doing such, not just staging tools, or holding the handline.
Rookies need the experience also, because someday they won't be the rookies anymore.
So far it's worked, at least the 10 yrs that I've been here, and the many before that.
01-29-2001, 04:07 PM #10CAPT DANFirehouse.com Guest
I HAVE BEEN INVOLVED IN MY DEPARTMENT EXTRICATION TEAM SINCE I JOINED,, WHAT WE DO IS WHEN WE ARE RESPONDING TO A PIAA W/EXTRICATION, THE CAPTAIN 99.4% OF THE TIME HAS SOMEONE WHO IS FROM THE TEAM ON BOARD AND HE WILL HAVE HIM ASSIGN TASKS TO GUYS IN THE BACK OF THE RIG, YOU TRY NOT TO GIVE A ROOKIE THE TOOL,,, YOU GIVE HIM A SIMPL,E JOB OF GOPHER, IT WORKS HE HELPS THE DRIVER WITH BULL WORK,, AND HAVE THE EXPERIENCED GUYS DO THE JOB AND ALL THE TIMES I HAVE DONE IT,, IT HAS WORKED. IT MIGHT BE SOMETHING TO LOOK IN TO TO DOING , BUT MAKING A SOP FOR SEATING ASSIGNMENTS WOULD BE A WASTE OF TIME THINKING ABOUT.. TRY IT AND LET ME KNOW
CAPT. DAN WILSON JR
WYNANTSKILL FIRE DEPT
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