1. #26
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    Something to work with,

    how about product knowledge rather than putting it down. I am sorry for putting your knowledge down but come on, don't slam something you do not know about. I like this post but lets keep it real. You was upset and said something's that you now see was not the best way to handle it, and that is ok. I just think that you would be offended "and you was" by what people said about you, how do you think other people feel about your Amkus comments. I will tell you something else, you had better worry about your neighbors equipment as you have already found out it could cost you a life one night "not just them", and that is what really counts isn't it? An answer to the problem, maybe the power unit was low on mineral oil thus causing power shortage to the tool before it came apart. I judged you on your post and maybe I was wrong, but you judged Amkus on your one time problem and maybe you are wrong. As far as you never using them again, that is your choice. I hope that company does not need your experience again because you have refused to help them already. Holmatro and Hurst are great tools, we ran with Holmatro for years and we run about 65% heavy entrapment, when our mineral oil is low we loose power too. Sorry for judging you, but please re-evaluate the tools, if not for anything else but your own knowledge. Just for my own knowledge, does this rig not have a set of hand tools or even a good old bumper jack? My point about the tools being the official tool of nascar was not to you, it was about the post saying amkus cutters can not cut case hardened or cast elements such as door hinges, nader bolts, brake pedal shafts, seat belt plates, and other reinforcers. many of the recent hurst models can. nuff said. The point about this was if it was true then how do they cut the roll cage of a racecar.

    caus·tic (kôstk)
    adj.
    Capable of burning, corroding, dissolving, or eating away by chemical action.

    chemical action n : any process determined by the atomic and molecular composition and structure of the substances involved [syn: chemical process, chemical change]


    to bad, so sad. are you still stuck in the 80's? This is like saying AB C = "see" your way out of it. Thanks for the laugh!

    spout their negativity. Lets see, I vow to never again use an Amkus tool as long as I live. "The (they) are nothing but extra weight on the truck...I'd rather carry the extra weight in sand..."



    [img]null[/img] Can't cut?

    [ 08-28-2001: Message edited by: Extrication Research ]
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    [ 08-28-2001: Message edited by: Extrication Research ]

  2. #27
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    Carl Avery,front and center please!I was taught to never attempt to cut case hardened parts with hyd. cutters because of (1) potential breakage of the tool or (2)at the least nicking the cutting edge.Now what I want to know is someone lying to me or is this a non-issue with the new generation of tools.I've yet to have a vehicle we couldn't acess,but I'm the first to admit they weren't all textbook.T.C.

  3. #28
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    The "Official tool of NASCAR" is Amkus??? That is interesting when you consider that NASCAR does NOT have a dedicated rescue team... so I wonder where their "official" tools get carried.., maybe in a media trailer??? I checked the Amkus webpage and found that they list NASCAR as a "racing partner" http://www.amkus.com/html/partners.html.

    I do know that the Simple Green Safety Teams for CART have Holmotro as their "official" tools. What makes an "official" tool? The best I can tell, all you need to do is supply tools for free and get exclusive rights to put your patches on the users and your decals on the vehicles that carry them.

    As for the ability to cut case hardened components, I am not sure why anyone would want to do this in the first place. You are using case hardened cutting surfaces to cut these objects which will result in some kind of damage to your tool's cutting surfaces. If you are cutting something like a nadar pin, you could potentially launch a projectile when the tool shears the pin.

    The case hardened objects in a vehicle are connected to parts that are not case hardened. it is safer, faster and better for your equipment to make your cuts here if you need to use a hydraulic tool to do it. These are places where your reciprocating saw is a better choice. Those of us who have worked around auto racing know that often times, the saw and the ram are the tools of choice rather than spreaders and cutters just for that reason.
    Richard Nester
    Orrville (OH) Fire Dept.

    "People don't care what you know... until they know that you care." - Scott Bolleter

  4. #29
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    Forget the NASCAR BS, who cares? If you buy any tool because it's the official tool of something I've got a bridge to sell you.

    As for Amkus cutters being able to cut anything, I can assure you that I've not found a part on a car it couldn't cut. I use both Hurst and Amkus and found both to be quality tools. As it has been said before the maintenance of the tool and firefighter training are the important things. If you have Hurst or Amkus you will be able to preform many successful rescues. Both manufacturer's tools can basically do the same thing. Their are things about Hurst I like and their are things I like about Amkus. Both also have things I don't like.
    If you realy want to learn next time it is time to buy invite the manufacturers out at the same time.
    We recently had Hurst, Amkus, Champion, Lucas, and TNT at our dept. at the same time. The side by side comparison was great, it gave us the tools needed to make a choice.
    Our department decided to stay with Hurst, while my full time department is in the middle of switching to Amkus from Hurst.

  5. #30
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    AGAIN! AGAIN! AGAIN! AGAIN! AGAIN! AGAIN!

    My point about the tools being the official tool of nascar was not to you, it was about the post saying amkus cutters can not cut case hardened or cast elements such as door hinges, nader bolts, brake pedal shafts, seat belt plates, and other reinforcers. many of the recent hurst models can. nuff said. The point about this was if it was true then how do they cut the roll cage of a racecar.
    My point about the tools being the official tool of nascar was not to you, it was about the post saying amkus cutters can not cut case hardened or cast elements such as door hinges, nader bolts, brake pedal shafts, seat belt plates, and other reinforcers. many of the recent hurst models can. nuff said. The point about this was if it was true then how do they cut the roll cage of a racecar.

  6. #31
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    My grandpa always said-"its a poor workman that blames his tools" I bet you were too busy pushing the "vollies" out of the way to use your tool to its best advantage

  7. #32
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    Since when is the "cage" of a race car hardened?It's steel tubing and as it has to be formed in a bender,not hard at all.I don't know of any commercially produced current rescue tool that won't very handily shear this material.Again why would you try to cut hardened parts knowing the hazards of such a practice?I seriously doubt that Hurst reccomends such use of their tools regardless of capability.T.C.

  8. #33
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    When Hurst came to our station to show their stuff they were more than happy to cut anything on the car. As a matter of fact each of the manufacturers I mentioned; AMKUS, HURST, CHAMPION, LUCAS, and TNT could all cut the same stuff. No one's tools had a problem.
    If you have old tools then sure, some manufacturers can't cut hinges, or nader bolts, but we are talking about tools built NOW, and they are all about the same. The only tool that I found to be inferior was a mini cutter built by GENISIS. We were at a drill cutting up a bus and the GENISIS rep was pushing this mini cutter. He said it would cut anything so we tried it on the break pedal, and the tool's blade exploded. Their full size cutter could do it but not the mini.

  9. #34
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    Originally posted by ADSN/WFLD:
    <STRONG>When Hurst came to our station to show their stuff they were more than happy to cut anything on the car. As a matter of fact each of the manufacturers I mentioned; AMKUS, HURST, CHAMPION, LUCAS, and TNT could all cut the same stuff. No one's tools had a problem.</STRONG>

    This illustrates how we are sometimes our own worst enemy. Somewhere along the line, someone got the idea that if a tool could not cut a case hardened steel part, it wasn't strong enough. What this did was force the manufacturers to tell their sales reps to let people cut case hardened steel and deal with whatever consequences resulted. I have heard this same story from a Phoenix, Hurst and Genesis tool rep, so I would suspect the others did the same thing.

    So, thanks to whoever made this an issue, we are basing the ability of our tools upon doing something we have no business doing with our tools. During the 21 years I have been in the fire service, there was only ONE time where I elected to cut a steering column to effect a rescue. The victim was pinned in a van and went into full arrest while we were working on getting him out. We went into a rapid removal mode and got the one item that was holding him out of the way. The result was a new knotch on the C/C Cutter's cutting surfaces (and he died anyway).

    Now, if you want to try something to see how well a tool will cut, see how well they stack up against each other cutting the "A" post on a school bus! It's not case hardened, but it is a hunk of metal!
    Richard Nester
    Orrville (OH) Fire Dept.

    "People don't care what you know... until they know that you care." - Scott Bolleter

  10. #35
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    Thanks MM I was beginning to think I was the only one out there who thinks cutting hardened parts is a bad plan.I was hoping Carl would offer his two bits but he didn't seem to take the bait.I noticed noone mentioned Holmatro as reccomending cutting these parts.An oversight?T.C.

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    So aside from roof posts, what will you try to cut.
    I agree I don't like the idea of cutting a steering wheel off, but what about door hinges. After the demo we did additional training with our cutters and depending on the situation going afetr the hinges is a much better way of gaining access quickly.

    This is how we are doing it. With the jaws take a bite of the front fender (this gives you a purchase between the door and fender) next spread the fender away (so you can see the hinges) then cut both hinges (top or bottom first doesn't matter).
    The door doesn't forcefully "pop" open. and often the door just rolls off of the nader pin (if need be, then cut it) When you think about it the second you take a tool to a car it is totaled. So why not make it easy on us, you now don't have the door to navigate around. This technique also doesn't move the car around.

  12. #37
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    If I gotta use the spreader on the door hinge to make room for the cutters,I personally will finish the whole hinge evolution with the spreader.Takes no more time.As far as the steering wheel,no prob. 'cause it it ISN"T HARDENED.The steering shaft on the other hand is a different story.Everybody has a "style"they use on extrication.Being inherently lazy plus being a mechanic for over twenty years I look at things different than some.Others have mentioned,and I concur,the biggest reason I won't cut hardened parts is their tendency to fly out and hurt someone or damage to my expensive equipment.Of course I'm the same guy who will use a trained tow operator for lifting,bending, holding,dash roll ups etc.These are my opinions based on a lot of years of watching,participating,instructing,and adapting.If you like them,feel free to use them,if you don't continue to do as you've always done.Just remember there is always a better way,and as long as the job gets done SAFELY and everyone goes home it has been a great day T.C.

  13. #38
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    Originally posted by ADSN/WFLD:
    <STRONG>So aside from roof posts, what will you try to cut.
    I agree I don't like the idea of cutting a steering wheel off, but what about door hinges. After the demo we did additional training with our cutters and depending on the situation going afetr the hinges is a much better way of gaining access quickly.
    </STRONG>
    Depending on the make of the car, the hinges may not even be case hardened. But I am also of the school where if the hinges present themselves as a target for the spreader, I can accomplish the door removal just as quickly and with more safety using a spreader. The problem still exist if you cut the hinge that a piece of metel could become a missile in the passenger compartment or flying at a rescuer.

    Like all else in this business, nothing is carved in stone. If cutting door hinges works for you, it is an acceptable option. Just keep an open mind to that fact that is is an "option" and that other options should be considered when you decide how to open the door.
    Richard Nester
    Orrville (OH) Fire Dept.

    "People don't care what you know... until they know that you care." - Scott Bolleter

  14. #39
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    I would have to agree with most of the replies. It is probably not the tools or the system but mainly maintenance or lack there of. We have the Ultimate system #0025. I would say this system is the most agreesive step by any manufacturer in the rescue tool field. We have had Amuks tools since 1981 and they have worked flawlessly

  15. #40
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    OK I will finally wade in here, Hell until we set them all down side by side and give them the same tasks to do all the sales represenitives and us their devoted customers will beat our chests and say how our tool is the best and it can cut Super Duper Boron plated titainium (what ever the heck that is). Yes the new NFPA standard does provide a level playing field. Come on guys, Every tool has their pluses and minuses and each tool is similar but UNIQUE. DO NOT BLAME any tool for failure unless you are thoroughly trained and and know that maintence is above par. Now having said that remember EVERY tool has exploded, fractured, leaked, injured someone (Somehow) so be carefull how many accusations you make. Now as for the case hardend stuff, well if your tool can do it so much the better. Why do I say that? It does give you more options. OK Don't panic guys, those of you that have advocated avoiding cutting there - YOU are CORRECT! Always take the easy road. It is faster and easier and easier on the vehicle and ultimately the patient ( Remember that is who and what we are there for). The less energy we have to put into a vehicle the better. That energy has to go somewhere. choose your tools carefully as you do that remember that is your choice make sure you know how to use it and when not to. That means if it fails for any reason (and they all do) Be ready with your plans B, Plan C and so on! AMKUS, or for that mater, Hurst, TNT, Centaur (the new old kid on the Block close history to Lukas) ART, Holmatro, Phoenix, Power Hawk and so on have never RESCUED anyone with out there Operating NUT, uh excuse me the Trained tool operator! is it the tool or the Operating Nut? You tell me
    Rescue is the Art & Science of matching your tools, talents and tricks to needs of our customers!
    Carl D. Avery

  16. #41
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    Well, in 19 years I have used just about every tool on the market. Unless it has Holmotro on the side of it, (my opinion) it is inferior and should be discarded.

    NOTE: The above was not a paid advertisement for Holmotro. Its just the best damn rescue tool on the market!!!

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    Thanks Carl,I needed that!Power tools,Hand tools,Cordless tools,We'll get there!T.C.

  18. #43
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    I used Amkus for three years while I was with a department in Lafayette, IN. The tools were well taken care of, and worked well in all situations we put them in. The tools did break a couple of times, but only after being used improperly.
    I feel that Amkus is a quality product, and just like any tool must be maintained to work well.
    FAIL TO MAINTAIN? = MAINTAIN TO FAIL
    "Honor Above Thyself"

    Patrick Harper

    NOTE: THE VIEWS EXPRESSED BY ME IN THIS FORUM DO NOT REFLECT THE VIEWS OF MY EMPLOYER.

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